Accuracy of the mag question.

[chafnerjr]

Alright... I'm no speedball'er but I'm no newb by any means either. However, I have question that I am sure some of you out there have some info about that I don't:

My brother-in-law Mike (who got me into Mag's) is having an on-going argument with one of his 5-man teammates. His teammate throwing a fit that mag's are simply too inaccurate to be let on the field in a five man tourny. I should mention that Mike is playing on an AGD Tequila Sunrise E-Mag with X-Mod, and his other teammate an X-Mag. Their teammate is pushing them to get a protoge, or an ego or other similar marker setup to improve their accuracy.

Now to be fair he's not saying that the mags have no accuracy, but that they are not as accurate as the latter. So what's the deal on accuracy and why? Is there an accepted/argued list of markers by accuracy? As far as I know a cocker is still the most accurate, right? This question is mostly academic.

Thanks for any input :cheers:

[FiXeL]

Well, how do you define acuracy? The gun? The barrel? Consistency? You can get any gun to shoot acurate if you put on a good barrel, a HPA/regulator system and good paint.

There is no most accurate paintball gun. It is made up out of multiple factors like the mechanical workings of the gun, barrel, paint, personal prefference, etc.

[chafnerjr]

Fair enough... I should have put in that the complainer ;) is talking specifically about the shot on shot accuracy of the mag's bolt. I think I'm bringing up the venturi myth again perhaps? He's talking about the mag's in general with respect to the bolt. Both of the mag's I'm referring to use X-Valves. Crossfire regulators (850 PSI) and have XMod 1.8 beta. Both use DW fibur barrels. The X-Mag has a Tuna blade trigger, and the Tequila a Fireblade trigger but have no further modifications other than standard tuning variances. The X-Mag is a c&c and the Tequila Sunrise is just that... the one of 25 Tequila. This is in comparison to a stock ego or protoge at say 50 yards.

Basically I want to know if there is any comparison, and am looking for arguing points if the variances are so low that tuning is the only difference. In that case imagine the perfectly tuned versions of each marker when making the comparison.

Thanks! :cheers:

*EDIT* I just realised that you should imagine that the comparison markers are using the same barrels and the same paint. If the diffrence is still personal playing style, then what style might suit each in relation to speedball only.

[FiXeL]

I'm no speedball player, neither do i own guns that would be considered high-end at the moment. But, i do own alot of mags including 2 Xmags, a Etac, Pneu-tac, some mags, a cocker, a VM-68, X7, Phantom and a few more.

Now compared to all of the guns that i have, and have owned, is a mag accurate? I say it's great, but maybe not the best. But for my needs it shoots great. (woodsballer) A good barrel will make a world of difference, but that goes for most of the guns out there. If you take gas efficency into comparison, a mag won't do much better than a Tippmann. You won't get great efficency with a mag, always has been, and probably will stay that way. But if you shoot only 500 rnds max. during a game, is there a difference besides the times you fill up?

I think that this should not be the reason not to use a mag. Sure, you can get guns that shoot 2000 rounds of a 68/4500 and shoot just as good. In the end i think it just boils down to personal prefference. I personally don't like the new guns, too expensive to buy new, horrible resale and with the guns that i own i have just as much fun as owning a high end.

Now do i play speedball? No. Do i play in competitions? No. So why should i spend a load of money on a gun, while i could be having just as much fun with a outdated cheaper gun?

My guns are accurate enough for my needs, why spend more on the latest and greatest? If you were playing on a high level, sponsored team, entering the big events, then i would say it justifies you getting the top end gun. But if you don't? Just stick with what works and don't spend too much on your gun.

[RavishingEddie]

The whole purpose to having a mag is to show how accuracy and reliability come from quality.
I had an emag and my friends also had Egos and a DM7. The ego was lighter, faster (better trigger, easier to walk) and more air efficient. However, the mag had excellent consistency and had a nice flat trajectory, and if the game is capped at 15 bps the speed factor becomes negligeable. In terms of accuracy well let me give you an example.

Me (Emag) with my friend (DM7) vs. Friend#2 (07 Ego) and Friend #3 (07 Ego).

Off the break my friend with the DM7 is eliminated. So it is now a 2 on 1. I sprinted and made it to the 50 tall can. Friend #2 is at the 30 to my left behing the car wash, Friend #3 is backman at the 10 tall can my mirror. They are both shooting at about 15bps with good accuracy to both sides of my bunker. I start shooting at friend #2 and keep him in the car wash then I switch and start snap shooting with Friend #3. I shot 5 times and Bam! hopper hit. Friend #3 eliminated. Then I turn and see friend #2 getting ready for a run thru and as soon as my mag spots his head,Bam! head shot. He then sticks hand out and bam! bonus ball to his finger.

If that isn't accurate to you then I don't know what is.






Fair enough... I should have put in that the complainer ;) is talking specifically about the shot on shot accuracy of the mag's bolt. I think I'm bringing up the venturi myth again perhaps? He's talking about the mag's in general with respect to the bolt. Both of the mag's I'm referring to use X-Valves. Crossfire regulators (850 PSI) and have XMod 1.8 beta. Both use DW fibur barrels. The X-Mag has a Tuna blade trigger, and the Tequila a Fireblade trigger but have no further modifications other than standard tuning variances. The X-Mag is a c&c and the Tequila Sunrise is just that... the one of 25 Tequila. This is in comparison to a stock ego or protoge at say 50 yards.

Basically I want to know if there is any comparison, and am looking for arguing points if the variances are so low that tuning is th only difference. In that case imagine the perfectly tuned versions of each marker when making the comparison.

Thanks! :cheers:

*EDIT* I just realised that you should imagine that the comparison markers are using the same barrels and the same paint. If the diffrence is still personal playing style, then what style might suit each in relation to speedball only.

[chafnerjr]

That's kind of what I was thinking about (referring to the post from both of you). I brought the air usage into question and that's the only solid difference over weight I can find, which is somewhat personal preference anyways. I know that weight can affect your ability to spin and snap on target should someone jump behind you. In any event these guys are not nearly at the level of even getting sponsors for paint let alone markers. I just wanted to know if there was a huge difference that I was un-aware of.

As for my input... I've only played on high end mags and cockers. Never any of these ego's or the like. The resale value is crap... utter crap in fact. So crappy that I might just have to pick up something electronic as a backup because I can't afford to have $#!tloads of high end mag's kicking around. So I wasn't able to really speak about it without asking here first. I'm glad to see that I wasn't missing something huge.

Def. good point about the barrels as well! The difference I saw when I moved to a 14" DW fibur was pretty significant coming form my JJ which kind of surprised me. To be fair it was probably the freak inserts that made the difference. However, the practically non-existent weight changed my snap shooting ability drastically. Being a rec player (not specifically woodsball either) I've had to cut down what used to be my standard 3 shot snap shoot down to one or two shots because I don't feel like shooting rec players three times :D Weird that a barrel can help me conserve paint :clap:

[chafnerjr]

So this might be a bit of a change of topic, but since we're talking gun differences and build quality a bit... what's the deal with the AKA Viking. I've seen the reverence with which they are treated in this forum but I don't know a damned thing about them. Hell I've never even seen one, and I've seen a lot of guns. What's their story?

Thanks for all the great input guys :cheers:

[Strider]

My emag can bend the space time continuum and turn back time it's so accurate. :headbang: :wow:

Heck, same can be said for my "Pumpmag of Death" as it was known for quite some time. :)

[Baranha]

I love Fixels Answer.
good job, pretty much took the words outta my mouth

[dstud2000]

AKA Viking. Very well built and solid electro. Extremely reliable, great air efficeincy, can probably keep up with anything made today. Unfortunately not made anymore, thanks SP :mad:

The AKA Vikings and Excaliburs were probably the best electros of their time next to the Emags and Xmags with the added bonus of great air efficiency. There is enough material on the stock vikings to really do some awesome milling to and can be made to be very light. I'm sure some others will pipe up to that know more than I do about them.

[warbeak2099]

Accuracy is determined by the paint you're shooting and the barrel it's coming out of. Have Mike tell his teammate that he doesn't know crap about anything.

[Thotograph]

"Don't believe the hype" - Flava Flav

Team Mate X is too caught up in the marketing BS to know the difference. Someone should tell him to lay off the aggsauce :tard:

Like my man Chuck D said... Because quality always shoots straight, ya heard?

[DevilMan]

Seems pretty simple test to me.

Take the same paint and the same type/size barrel and put the guns side by side on a bench holding them still and shoot 10-30 balls each and watch the pattern. Then do it at a longer distance. And let that decide.

Chances are good it'll be a "tie" or close to it. Or just take and put 2 pie plates up at a distance and see how many out of XX balls hit it. Same thing. But bench the guns to take the human factor out of it.

The other thing you can do is set both guns up the same and play 1 on 1. Play 5 games. Then switch guns. Play 1 on 1. 5 games. See what it comes out as. NOW yes the guy trying to prove his point could sandbag and play stupid and get shot out easily and blame it on the gun but then he'd also have to admit he's a loser. :D

I like my mags.

DM

[Hilltop Customs]

think about this for a second.....

if two markers consistently fire a paintball @ 300fps, where is a difference in accuracy generated?

only job of a paintball marker is to take a paintball, put it in a tube and release some gas to propel the ball down the tube. If its consistent in the amt of gas released(velocity), then accuracy is only determined by paint and barrel.....of which paint is the main determining factor.



My marker is more accurate than yours! :rofl:




moral of the story, get the marker your most comfortable with...because if your comfortable you will be more consistent in your shooting

(waits for someone to say "marker X" doesnt have kick so I can slap them in the face with a physics book)

[ThePixelGuru]

Sounds like his teammate ate a whole marketing sandwich - hook, line and sinker.

In terms of accuracy, markers can really only affect the speed of each shot (I hate using the term "velocity" because velocity includes a direction, which markers don't do). If the marker puts the same amount of air behind each ball, that shot-to-shot speed is going to be extremely constant. Other than that, the bolt can have a tiny effect, but it's something like an extra 10 feet of distance when using a Cooper-T backspin bolt or the like. If an undershot bolt has that little effect, a bolt with three evenly spaced holes vs. a eight evenly spaced holes vs. one big centered hole is probably going to matter far less than a butterfly flapping his wings somewhere near the field. :p Air's behind the ball, ball goes. It's not rocket science.

If your brother-in-law is a good shot and wants to shut his teammate up, just find a chrony range with some nice small targets set up a good distance away and have a shooting competition. Something like twenty balls each, most hits wins. I know I can hit a milk jug a hundred feet away just about every time. I'd have a hard time believing gelatin spheres get much more accurate than that.

[chafnerjr]

Yep, I totally agree with just about everything. I think we have a winner in the bench testing... I have no idea why I didn't think of that before :cuss: Now, I've been here fielding for arguments that the kid will understand and that would be pretty hard to argue with now wouldn't it. I also like the one on one idea. Thanks guys! :cheers:

[ajnin]

Wow... what a thread.

My pumpmag and pneumag for example have about -/+ 1-2 fps. The hyperframed xvalve I have seen 10 shots, all at the same fps.

As for the efficiency, I think most mag users find the more they use their mag the more efficient it gets. This is due to your trigger pull consistency of course. On the hyperframe it is of course handling the consistent pull for me.

All this being said, I can put ball on ball with my mags while running, as can most my team members. So my suggestion to you is to play more, and of course get a good barrel kit.

:shooting:

[mabb1975]

18 years of playing this game have taught me 1 thing over and over, Never has a gun made the player. I have went up against semi pro players in 1v1's with a Phantom VSC and won way more then I have lost. I have an automag that I competed with until 2000 and I still use it. The gun is heavy, not great for offhand shooting, bulky and slow, BUT.. I know EXACTLY what I can do with it and how I can do it. I own 36 guns of all different sizes and kinds. Most of them I can pick up and play with without a second thought, but only 3 of them can I pick up and play really well with, because I know the gun like its my child. Your friends teammate is very uneducated in the ways of paintball, and I agree has eaten the marketing 100%. Find a marker you like, get a good barrel kit, get it setup how YOU like it then work on your skills. I am willing to bet the player is 100% better with that random setup then by spending $1200 on a new Ego 08 or DM8 ( not saying they are bad markers ).

[dcent]

*sigh* agreed.
like everyone else allready said guns arent accurate, the shooter is ( aside from backspin barrels/bolts )

I would also like to say that I have a DM5, 05 ND Timmy, 2 Ions, and 2 mags and I have NEVER had my guns ( or seen anyone elses gun ) shoot +/- 2 or 3fps.

maybe if you shoot 2wice over the chrony and fluke out, but if you put 30 balls over the chroney I bet dollars to donuts that everygun on the market will have +/- 5 average.

every gun I have shot has had spikes up to 299 and drops down to 280 ( +/-10 ) but if you average them out over 30 rounds ( and I have had strings of 5 balls come out of every gun I own that have chronyed identical ) you get around +/-5

point being that accuracy is in the shooter. and if you are used to a heavy gun the kick generated by a lighter gun may actually deminish your accuracy.

and ( as previously stated by multiple posters ) buying into marketing is what paintball's all about.

I have drop tested Vlocitys ( stock first gen fastest setting ) halos, and pulse's and NONE have exceeded 22bps ( 18 is pretty common ) I have counted my ball loading and all have fallen short of advertised. if the player knows when to move and when NOT to stick his head out and when that kid is going to try a bunker move then the gun is just a tool. a good carpenter could use a rock instead of a hammer and still get results.

[Chrishew09]

think about this for a second.....

if two markers consistently fire a paintball @ 300fps, where is a difference in accuracy generated?

only job of a paintball marker is to take a paintball, put it in a tube and release some gas to propel the ball down the tube. If its consistent in the amt of gas released(velocity), then accuracy is only determined by paint and barrel.....of which paint is the main determining factor.



My marker is more accurate than yours! :rofl:




moral of the story, get the marker your most comfortable with...because if your comfortable you will be more consistent in your shooting

(waits for someone to say "marker X" doesnt have kick so I can slap them in the face with a physics book)

This is my response to a "T", its the laws of physics my friends plain and simple.

[Chrishew09]

Seems pretty simple test to me.

Take the same paint and the same type/size barrel and put the guns side by side on a bench holding them still and shoot 10-30 balls each and watch the pattern. Then do it at a longer distance. And let that decide.

Chances are good it'll be a "tie" or close to it. Or just take and put 2 pie plates up at a distance and see how many out of XX balls hit it. Same thing. But bench the guns to take the human factor out of it.

The other thing you can do is set both guns up the same and play 1 on 1. Play 5 games. Then switch guns. Play 1 on 1. 5 games. See what it comes out as. NOW yes the guy trying to prove his point could sandbag and play stupid and get shot out easily and blame it on the gun but then he'd also have to admit he's a loser. :D

I like my mags.

DM
It's really not a simple comparison test b/c each paintball used in the test are not the same, so all is not equal. If you really want to get down to it, wind speed/direction, paint size/weight, temperature, ect...... are all variables that are uncontrolled so a true scientific test can not be performed.

[questionful]

The only effect a paintball gun has on the accuracy of its projectile is variance along the vertical axis, which is determined by consistency in velocity. The rest is the paint, the barrel, and the environment.

Whoever said the other guy should get an ego because it's more accurate than a mag is a moron.

[GoatBoy]

You'd think this would actually be a pretty quick conversation.


"Mag's are simply too inaccurate."

"Prove it."

[MAGslinger]

It would be easier to prove this by making a video to 'prove' Mags are in fact accurate, if not more accurate than most paintball markers.

[GRimm]

In the end it doesnt matter how accurate your marker is. It all depends on the user, but most people think that buying an expensive electro will make them a better player. Thats why its so fun to tag someone who is using a "superior" marker with something like a tippmann or a mag.

[esperto96]

I find one thing left out in bench testing accuracy/consistency, the ergonomics. I've mixed and matched parts for my two mags with interesting results.

Earlier this summer I had set up one of my mags with the classic rail, classic body, xvalve, and inteliframe. When I played, I felt like I couldn't hit anything. The gun just felt "wrong" in my hands. I didn't get very many eliminations.

I then added a drop forward and extended the forgrip significantly with parts from a qloader CMS kit and a stock A-5 forgrip. The next time I played it felt "right" and my accuracy improved, giving me more eliminations and more comfort in the game.

If I locked both versions of the gun onto the same test bench they would have shot the same. But in game they're not in a vice, but in my hands. It very well may shoot different.

We all have different length arms, different shoulder widths, neck heights, eye levels. What marker fits one person might not fit another. Even the same gun in different configurations will fit differently. I bet that will matter more than the difference between +/-5 fps and +/- 3fps.

Shoot what feels right to you and let others do the same. Fortunately, there are options for mags as far as mix and matching rails, grips, drops, and frames to make it fit you. So I'll keep shooting my mags.

[ThePixelGuru]

In light of these last two posts...

Markers are precise.
Shooters are accurate.

Your marker won't hit much if you're not aiming it (and gelatin spheres only get so precise). ;)

[XM15]

This accuracy argument has been going on for years. The bottom line is paintball guns shoot a round ball out of a smooth bore barrel. In other words a paintball gun uses the same technology as a musket. The musket last saw service during the civial war. Everything that could be done with in the limits of the paintball shape and the barrel has been done many years ago. If you want any leap in accuracy you have to change the shape of the paintball to a more stable bullet shape and use a internally rifled barrel. This idea was tried many years ago. Some company showed off thier football shaped paintballs at the Zap Amatuer Open back in the mid 90's and it went no where.

[Toll]

I'll be honest, I'd probably just not play with the guy if he thinks that way. It's next to impossible to prove to some one who already has come to their own answer.

If people were to collect the data they'd find the only thing that makes a marker more or less accurate (or different at all for that matter) is the paint, barrel and valve; That any stacked tube ram based poppet valved marker will probably be within the same area and the same goes with spools.

[drewkroeker]

QUOTE: ajnin

"My pumpmag and pneumag for example have about -/+ 1-2 fps. The hyperframed xvalve I have seen 10 shots, all at the same fps."

I realize this might be off-topic, but on a technical note, how do you achieve such consistency? I love my mags and my fps stays pretty good, like -/+ 3-6 fps, but I would love to make that range even smaller.

[snoopay700]

The first few posts hurt to read, flatter trajectory, one marker more accurate than the other, ugh, horrid.

If you want to talk about accuracy, even my talon, the plastic pump gun, is accurate. I've gotten plenty of people out with that with only one shot. It doesn't matter what gun you have, it's whether the barrel is consistent (upon other factors) and if you have good paint. I stopped after my brain started to hurt, but i saw some respectable names and know they've already said this.

[punkncat]

The biggest factor that will influence accuracy is the paintball itself. The "best" marker made will shoot a crappy paintball, just like the worst....crappy.

The main influence that the marker itself has is consistancy. If the marker itself is shooting at the same velocity time after time then you will see an improvement in accuracy.

A player being comfotable with the marker will also have a serious effect. If you are happy with the ergonomics of the marker, and truly believe that it is better for you, then chances are good that it actually will be, for you.

IMO the quality of build of a marker has a whole lot more to do with lasting and trouble free operation down the road than truly having that much to do with how it shoots a paintball. Of course we could argue the finer points of this opinion in to the ground, but through all my years of playing my experience is that you can take a pirahna, put a good reg on it, shoot some good paint, and it does it suprizingly similar to any $1400 marker on the market. Maybe not as fast, and certainly not "with style", but that is not really the point.

[tech-chan]

Why does it even matter?

I always thought it was the person shooting the gun's fault.

If you can't aim, go ahead and blame it on the gun.

I don't aim, I play.

[russc]

My RT with 16" barrel is my least accurate gun by far. Of course, it gets even worse once the first chop comes along! :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqfTn5WlmEA

[Hilltop Customs]

that had to be one of the ugliest chops ever

[ghost flanker]

Accuracy is determined by the paint you're shooting and the barrel it's coming out of. Have Mike tell his teammate that he doesn't know crap about anything.

I agree. With skill and familiarity of your gun aside, high quality paint is, by far, the best equipment upgrade to increase your accuracy. However, as long as you have a decent paint to barrel match, the barrel actually has less to do with accuracy than even a light trigger pull. I also believe older or lower end guns are widely percieved to be inaccurate largely because they're commonly filled with low end, egg-shaped paint that contains more air bubbles than a jacuzzi on high. Who puts Draxxus Gold in a 98 Custom... or Monster Balls in an '06 Ego? But, a Tippmann in a vice grip is just as accurate as any electro with identical paint and barrel in the same configuration.

Here's a link of a well done experiment that suggests the barrel (as well as the gun, itself), has suprisingly little effect on accuracy. It answers a lot of commonly asked questions that are the fuel for various pointlessly endless debates, such as one-piece vs. two-piece, rifling vs. smoothbore, and long vs. short. Check it out and learn something.

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=2218018

"There's my 2 cents. Go buy yourself sumthin nice."

[ghost flanker]

The whole purpose to having a mag is to show how accuracy and reliability come from quality.
I had an emag and my friends also had Egos and a DM7. The ego was lighter, faster (better trigger, easier to walk) and more air efficient. However, the mag had excellent consistency and had a nice flat trajectory, and if the game is capped at 15 bps the speed factor becomes negligeable. In terms of accuracy well let me give you an example.

Me (Emag) with my friend (DM7) vs. Friend#2 (07 Ego) and Friend #3 (07 Ego).

Off the break my friend with the DM7 is eliminated. So it is now a 2 on 1. I sprinted and made it to the 50 tall can. Friend #2 is at the 30 to my left behing the car wash, Friend #3 is backman at the 10 tall can my mirror. They are both shooting at about 15bps with good accuracy to both sides of my bunker. I start shooting at friend #2 and keep him in the car wash then I switch and start snap shooting with Friend #3. I shot 5 times and Bam! hopper hit. Friend #3 eliminated. Then I turn and see friend #2 getting ready for a run thru and as soon as my mag spots his head,Bam! head shot. He then sticks hand out and bam! bonus ball to his finger.

If that isn't accurate to you then I don't know what is.

Unless your Emag had an Apex barrel screwed into it, I highly doubt it had a "flatter trajectory." Seriously, why would you say that?

[hitech]

My eMag is the MOST accurate paintball gun in the world, period. :shooting: No one has ever proven it's not. And Tom has proven that my eMag (yes, my personal one, not eMags in general) is the MOST accurate.

And yes, I do have an apex barrel, but that actually makes it less accurate, but it's fun to play with in speedball.

_____________________________________________
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Hitech is the man.... :eek: - Blennidae
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[snoopay700]

My eMag is the MOST accurate paintball gun in the world, period. :shooting: No one has ever proven it's not. And Tom has proven that my eMag (yes, my personal one, not eMags in general) is the MOST accurate.

And yes, I do have an apex barrel, but that actually makes it less accurate, but it's fun to play with in speedball.

Yeah, well, well, Tom proved my RT is more accurate than your eMag. :p

[hitech]

Yeah, well, well, Tom proved my RT is more accurate than your eMag. :p

Even thou your RT is AS accurate as my eMag, that still make my eMag the most accurate in the world. Your's is just as good...

[Hilltop Customs]

lol, if every marker is equal, then they all are the most accurate.....never thought of it like that :spit_take

cup is half full/empty sort of thing I guess

[snoopay700]

lol, if every marker is equal, then they all are the most accurate.....never thought of it like that :spit_take

cup is half full/empty sort of thing I guess
Psh, whatever, i'll make my rt more accurate by making it lp with the smartbox. :ninja:

[Hilltop Customs]

Psh, whatever, i'll make my rt more accurate by making it lp with the smartbox. :ninja:

but the shocker can still out range you :spit_take

[hitech]

cup is half full/empty sort of thing I guess

The glass is just twice as big as it should be. ;)

[snoopay700]

but the shocker can still out range you :spit_take
Crap! You're right! Hmm, i'll put the stock shocker barrel on my rt, and the smart box, and, and, i'll convert it to space age Seal Forward Technology. :ninja:

:rofl:

[Hilltop Customs]

The glass is just twice as big as it should be. ;)

ohhhhh we got a free thinker here....look out people, hes dangerous

[Hilltop Customs]

Crap! You're right! Hmm, i'll put the stock shocker barrel on my rt, and the smart box, and, and, i'll convert it to space age Seal Forward Technology. :ninja:

:rofl:

oh yea, my paintball gun uses vacuum vortex generator.....it bends the space time continuum....so you are actually hit with the paintball before it even leaves the barrel. :ninja:

FPS is for pansies, I measure my shots in multiples of light speed.......when your hit by one of my paintballs, it has so much energy it vaporizes you.

[snoopay700]

oh yea, my paintball gun uses vacuum vortex generator.....it bends the space time continuum....so you are actually hit with the paintball before it even leaves the barrel. :ninja:

FPS is for pansies, I measure my shots in multiples of light speed.......when your hit by one of my paintballs, it has so much energy it vaporizes you.
Psh, at least mine is safe, yours is just a machine that is ruining paintball and making people leave the sport (and their lives, but that's not the important part. :rofl: ) :p

[Hilltop Customs]

psh, my marker improves the game.....no wiping ;)

[snoopay700]

psh, my marker improves the game.....no wiping ;)
:rofl: True, true, but my marker can send them where the sun don't shine (sort of a replacement for my foot lol) if people do wipe cause it's that smart. :p