SP and the Paintball Market

[Automagsam]

Now, I wanted to cover the so called SP crisis in this post to help offer some sort of closure or solution, but in order to do so we need to take a look at the paintball market as a whole. It is my goal to create a little more positive thinking, as though myself I do not personally like Smart Parts, I'm also not into people sitting around and complaining, and I will explain why in this post. Everything I'm about to state is merely an idea and a suggestion, and does not have to be taken as the ultimate truth. It is good as consumers and people who partake in this market, to question the market itself.

First let me address the whole idea of the paintball market going down hill or dying. The paintball market is not dead nor will it be in a long long time. What I believe is happening is the market is adjusting to the demand of its consumers, and this is a good thing, because if it didn't, well then there would be no paintball market. Now if you the consumer, are against the changes being made, and the market for the most part isn't listening to you, it is because the Market caters to what is in demand of the majority of its consumers, no the minority, so in fact your wants really are not that important to paintball as a whole, whether your wants are good or bad. Let me put it this way, if the market was to souly focus on the minority and what the minority wanted, then the profit margin or intake would be small and the market would topple. (this is not to say they totally disregard what the minority wants) So those who are complaining about the market and are not getting heard, are essentially not important to the majority of the market's needs. If you want to change the market, essentially the minority has to become the majority. It all comes down to relative scarcity and supply and demand (which is controlled by scarcity).

Everyone who does complain on the forum seems to complain about the issues, but not offer some form of resolution. I mean ideally to solve the problem of say SP we would need everyone to start purchasing other things aside from SP products, but realistically when this occurs, and eventually odds are it will, a large sum of people would need to take part and ultimately SP guns will have to go out of fashion.

Now let me present my guide lines for effectively balancing the companies in the paintball market, so SP is not a monopoly. There needs to be another company, other than AGD (they don't have enough resources at this point) that can meet the demands of the mainstream consumer (the majority). Now most of you here aren't mainstream so naturally you might not want another "ion esque" marker for example, however the best way to regulate the market and not need government intervention is through competition, so those SP haters here might have to embrace another company, even if you are not mainstream, mainstream competition is needed in order to prevent a monopoly without the government reaching in and taking control. I don't want PB companies to worry about being busted up and regulated by our government due to their actions, and the consumer shouldn't either. Part of the problem is the fact not enough patenting occurred early on. The lack of economical competition and idea of free ideas only hindered the market and development. If you want people to be able to freely expand on your ideas yet not abuse them like SP abused them, you need to patent and protect them. If the paintball market ever dies soon (which it won't) it'd be due to the lack of competition provided by certain companies. (Yes companies still competed with markers back during the days when things went un patented, but they failed to protect their other ideas). I hate saying this, but ultimately SP came to power because while everyone was being equal and carefree about their ideas with the thought the market only wants to improve them for the good of the sport, SP came along and decided to steal the work, as wrong as this morally may be, companies are suffering for poor competitive economic management. Now to fix our issues (and SP is crooked don't get me wrong), we have to essentially sell out do the the failure of other companies. Remember SP didn't come to power on its own, you can't just be crooked and make it in the market, other companies have to make poor choices along the way. Protect your assets people, the market is for competition not sharing. Every company knows that the market is competitive and that is the ONLY way to survive. If you want to be innovative you gotta protect it if you plan to sell it at any point of time. The market stays alive through self interest, not interest for the group as a whole.

I understand what SP has done is crooked, but I ask everyone to question how they got away with what they did.

I don't like SP but I'm sick of sitting around and only looking at one side of the coin, lets look at the big picture and learn something.

[warbeak2099]

I have embraced Proto has SP's competition for the Ion portion of the market. The SLG rocks the socks off any Ion any day. I am happy to see Proto filling that portion of the market with a product that isn't complete crap.

Whenever someone looking to purchase a gun in that price range asks me, I always suggest they purchase an SLG. That's how I'm doing my part at least.

Other than that, SP guns aren't really that popular anymore. NXTs are not as popular as SFTs were in their day and the resale on both markers has plummeted. SP shot itself in the foot by flooding the market with these guns. PE has replaced the Shocker with their Egos as the "in gun" now. They however are doing a bit better at protecting the resale value of their markers. Not that much better, but better nonetheless.

[Coralis]

unfortunately even if SP closes their doors someone will probably still buy them out just to get the patents, chances are they wont be any better than SP about them either.

[Automagsam]

unfortunately even if SP closes their doors someone will probably still buy them out just to get the patents, chances are they wont be any better than SP about them either.

Agree'd I mean I'm just trying to play devil's advocate here because everyone is so fast to criticize SP (including me) but we need to question what caused this, and how do we go about solving the issue. Lets face the facts, it wasn't SP's dirty tactics alone that caused them to get where they are, other people made mistakes along the way. No one wants to admit it because we all want to put all of the blaim on SP, but as crooked as they are, they couldn't have done it without the mistakes of other people. I'm just posting this to invite anyone with an actual idea of how to solve the situation here, not state how crooked SP is, we all know they are crooked.

I appreciate posts like yours and honestly the whole patent thing may be a problem, but eventually if they are in huge financial trouble they may not be able to hold on to everything they have right now. Competition is the best way to even out the market though and prevent monopolies, I think eventually the sport will evolve and those patents won't even hold any weight on the market personally.

[questionful]

I mean ideally to solve the problem of say SP we would need everyone to start purchasing other things aside from SP products

There needs to be another company, other than AGD (they don't have enough resources at this point) that can meet the demands of the mainstream consumer (the majority).
That might be the most plausible way, but it is not the only way. Another way would be to get the Patent Office to reexamine the patents or whatever the legal term for "shoving their bull**** right back up their ***" is.


Part of the problem is the fact not enough patenting occurred early on. The lack of economical competition and idea of free ideas only hindered the market and development. If you want people to be able to freely expand on your ideas yet not abuse them like SP abused them, you need to patent and protect them. If the paintball market ever dies soon (which it won't) it'd be due to the lack of competition provided by certain companies. (Yes companies still competed with markers back during the days when things went un patented, but they failed to protect their other ideas). I hate saying this, but ultimately SP came to power because while everyone was being equal and carefree about their ideas with the thought the market only wants to improve them for the good of the sport, SP came along and decided to steal the work, as wrong as this morally may be, companies are suffering for poor competitive economic management.

I understand what SP has done is crooked, but I ask everyone to question how they got away with what they did.
I think you're very wrong about the lack of competition today being caused by the lack of patenting before SP. Maybe I'm missing something, because it seems very obvious to me how patenting kills competition. IMO, the whole "Patent" idea is a near-obsolete system that worked 150 years ago. The supposed purpose of patents is an exchange. The inventor discloses his invention (this benefits the industry) and in exchange is given monopoly rights to its use (this is bad for the industry). I will type more later, I just wanted to say that.

Before I leave the topic for a while, let me say I agree strongly that we do need to quit complaining about people complaining about SP, and actually sit down, discuss, and figure something out.

May this thread last longer than 3 days.

[pmstc]

tl;dr?

[warbeak2099]

I think you're very wrong about the lack of competition today being caused by the lack of patenting before SP.

Yea especially since back in the early 90's there were more companies belting out Nelson and Sheridan clones than you could shake a stick at.

[questionful]

Yea especially since back in the early 90's there were more companies belting out Nelson and Sheridan clones than you could shake a stick at.
Each with a series of new, innovative features. So many companies, all competing. This is what caused the arms race of the late 80's - early 90's. And now look. The poor dude in the workshop whose username starts with an S has to pretty much rule out the possibility of making and selling his own new, innovative electropneumatic design.

"What a beautiful world" playing over muted napalm explosions (i forgot the name of the movie that was in, sorry).

[Hilltop Customs]

Before I leave the topic for a while, let me say I agree strongly that we do need to quit complaining about people complaining about SP, and actually sit down, discuss, and figure something out.

if someone is posting about smart parts just to start drama, then people have a right to complain. If someone wants to post their opinion about smart parts, they can easily find an older SP complaint thread and post what they want. Now if someone wants to discuss the issue, the first step that person has to take is gaining some knowledge on the subject so they dont come off like an ***....which is exactly what has happened a few times recently. After that, I see no problem with said person starting a new thread to discuss the topic.....I'd imagine most people on AO feel the same way. Personally, I wouldnt mind seeing it discussed more.

On another note, and Ive said this a few times already, electronics are not required to play paintball, it is the players wanting to use electronics that give smart part's patents their power. Get rid of the dumbass ramping rules and go back to 1 shot 1 pull. After that SP patents lose all their power, since what they cover will no longer be in demand. Pneumags prove that mechanical markers can be created which have rates of fire comparable to electronics, they just cant duplicate ramping, which IMO should have never been brought into paintball in the first place.

thats enough for now....

[tech-chan]

I've said it before, I'll say it again. The first time you ramp is the first time the the game is no longer a rush. It just gets boring.

[questionful]

How do you advertise that?

Now with lower ROF!!

:rofl: :tard: :(

[Hilltop Customs]

advertise it with a much cheaper pricetag(no royalties, no electronics = less cost)

if two markers were being sold with the exact same design, one was an extremely nice mechanical and the other used electronics for activation. If the mechanical version was $100 and the electronic version was $200, I would definely consider the mechanical as long as it had a pneumag like trigger, how about you?

[Automagsam]

The only reason I brought up patents is because that seems to be a key issue here as far as paying royalties, plus i remember reading how things were left unpatented so as other companies could expand on the idea. Had these things gone patented a while ago they'd be owned by their original owners, now the original owners pay royalties to SP, but that isn't really my point, I'm wondering how do we go about fixing this, clearly no one is going to look into SP's patents cause I'm sure if the players know about them the CEOS of the other companies that got screwed sure as hell know, so how do we go about this?

[Hilltop Customs]

I hope my first post didnt come off describing this thread as one to complain about, as this thread has a decent start and seems to be more thought out than most. What I was attempting to describe in my previous post are threads which have a few lines of smart parts hate followed by a link to a petition....I tried to find the perfect example from last week(I think) but apparently both were deleted. Anyway sorry if it came off like I was encouraging complaints against your thread, this thread seems to encourage ideas and deeper thought which can only be beneficial.


just to add another something else....you mention buying other companies products besides smart parts. While this encourages other companies by increasing their revenues, smart parts will still be profiting since they will still receive royalties. In reality, by supporting other companies you are still supporting smart parts, unless you are buying a mechanical marker or purchasing from a company not licensed by smart parts.

[Enemy]

though it is true that bye buying another electro some money gets back to smartparts but it is not the profit margin of if you bought straight from sp..

the problem is the gross amount of people that do complain while they have an sp gun sitting right behind them.

[punkncat]

How do you advertise that?

Now with lower ROF!!

:rofl: :tard: :(

Yup, now THAT is funny right thar.


I am not even going to start in on the anti SP bashing, blah blah stuff. They did what they found neccesary. Right or wrong, it has made them profitable and looked after their intrest.

The question brought up about the Ion and the SLG. Between the two I would still stick with the Ion. I like the build of the SLG, as far as looks and "appearance" of quality. But must admit after having worked with quite a few Ions, they are a very capable marker especially for the price point.
Anyway, not trying to swap subjects. I am sure a marker comparison was not the op's point. Carry on.
:dance:

[MAGslinger]

Something that is not mentioned is the fact that paintball is now entered into the age of mass production. Let's face it, not everyone is willing to pay extra for carefully machined parts, or a carefully machined paintball marker. More people are willing to compromise quality for price. We're at a point where players want a grease gun instead of a Thompson. In the past, during the early days of the sport, players had less income to spend on a marker. Because of that, the industry was focused on quality, durability and producing a product that was almost maintenance free. Times have changed. As younger players got into the game, so has the demand for what players want in a product.

[WARPED1]

All sais in the OP was all well and good. But this all happened like 3 years ago. I don't think anything SP did is still in effect(I could be wrong, I been out of the loop awhile).
SP makes a high quality product that actually meets the demands of todays tournament players.
AGD makes a high quality product as well, but the people who use AGD stuff are in the minority. It's too bad, because teams rocking E/X mags would be cool.

[Watcher]

It's too bad, because teams rocking E/X mags would be cool.


What ever happened to the AGD Lions?

The problem I have with SP, besides the fact that they are crooks, it that the products they make ARE cheap.
I have an ION, I wanted it at a cheap electro and I got it for like $100 after a gun trade and it included a body kit and a profiler lens...
And it does as it is advertised, it is an economical gun that can keep up with tourney style markers.

But it is downright cheap! It had major issues from day one when the reg was cross-threaded in the VA!! It is a pain to maintain, the screws want to strip very easily, the trigger is cheap plastic and has a lot of side-to-side wobble, the reg is sub-par, the feedneck is garbage, the asa sucks, and the board isn't exactly the best either.
One thing I will give them is that it is light, and the barrel is decent.

To get an ION to meet the same expectations of, say, a proto hundreds of dollars in upgrades is needed to get it off the ground.
I've spent more getting an AutomagRT that I did with my ION, and though the RT is 95% stock I think it outperforms the ION with some upgrades. It can near match the speed, it is about the same size, and it feels very similar in balance and position, and the operation is similar, but it isn't electronic, it is heavier, and it is a gas-hog...
The RT even has some advantages over the ION, as in the bolt out the back which SP finally did in the XE version.

I'm not saying anything though, it is a good marker to get a kid if they are just getting into speedball, but for a solid investment I'd best avoid one.

The problem I think is that speedball is taking over paintball at this point. Woodsball and pumps was where it was born and now woodsballers are seen as "military buffs" who want to simulate combat and pump players are just old-skool.
Well no wonder the industry is driving after plastic, weight, and speed; paintball has forgotten it's roots. So unless more people stop being "agg" and actually play paintball for what it is then I think the classic style of built-with-care-to-last is gone.
Too many people have tourney attitude in rec-play. I go to the field and see 90% of people in full jerseys with matching goggles, loader, and barrel kit and rip it in ramping 100% of the time and it kills me. If it isn't a tourney, why do you have to have the 15bps rate on at all times?
I mean, who still makes pumps today besides CCI, Palmers, and Autococker?

I would buy a pneu-gun if they made them come like that...

[MAGnetism]

It's too bad, because teams rocking E/X mags would be cool.

What about a whole team rocking Pnuemags? seems like they'd be able to keep up fine.

[punkncat]

What about a whole team rocking Pnuemags? seems like they'd be able to keep up fine.

Sure keep up just fine. But 118ci tanks are hard to come by nowdays.

[MAGnetism]

Why 118?

[punkncat]

Why 118?


;) Cause mags are so efficent.

[MAGnetism]

;) Cause mags are so efficent.
crap, Mines a 70

[drewkroeker]

I guess I look at this more from the end product: I can get my hands on just about any marker I want if I am willing to pony up the cash for it (I have been tempted to spring for an x-mag but couldn't justify it, too many other guns already!) Once I have my dream setup in hand and have the required orings and parts to service it and keep it shooting good for years, it doesn't really matter to me what the market does. My demand has been fulfilled, and God willing, I will not need to purchase another gun (ha ha, I'm as bad a gunwhore as anyone and will probably eat those words in the near future). I don't know the specifics of what SP did, but whatever they did, it wouldn't stop me from buying any marker or product that I found to be high quality.

I realize this point of view is somewhat selfish and as a "retired customer" who only wants to buy paint from now on, this will not help in shaping the paintball market.

[GRimm]

I prefer not to buy SP products not only because of what they did, but also because the make a bunch of crappy products that I wouldnt trust it as far as I could trhow it. I prefer to buy products that I know are made well and will last me a long time and take a beating.

[questionful]

I guess I look at this more from the end product: I can get my hands on just about any marker I want if I am willing to pony up the cash for it (I have been tempted to spring for an x-mag but couldn't justify it, too many other guns already!) Once I have my dream setup in hand and have the required orings and parts to service it and keep it shooting good for years, it doesn't really matter to me what the market does. My demand has been fulfilled, and God willing, I will not need to purchase another gun (ha ha, I'm as bad a gunwhore as anyone and will probably eat those words in the near future). I don't know the specifics of what SP did, but whatever they did, it wouldn't stop me from buying any marker or product that I found to be high quality.

I realize this point of view is somewhat selfish and as a "retired customer" who only wants to buy paint from now on, this will not help in shaping the paintball market.
You're an irresponsible jerk.

[Hilltop Customs]

You're an irresponsible jerk.

ouch?

I'm sorry, but if someone makes what I want, for a price I want it at, I will buy it too. I bought an ion as a throw away/loaner gun for this reason.(second hand....well IDK how many hands that slut had been in, but I got her cheap)

[WARPED1]

What about a whole team rocking Pnuemags? seems like they'd be able to keep up fine.Yeah, but you know the tourney mindset. "If I don't need 40 9volts to play, I don't need it."

[snoopay700]

ouch?

I'm sorry, but if someone makes what I want, for a price I want it at, I will buy it too. I bought an ion as a throw away/loaner gun for this reason.(second hand....well IDK how many hands that slut had been in, but I got her cheap)
I think he meant more with his whole mentality of how he doesn't care what happens to the market after he has what he wants, and he's right, he is irresponsible, because if the market goes down then we're all screwed as far as paintball.

[drewkroeker]

QUOTE: "You're an irresponsible jerk."

Point taken. I just think that there is a point where I really need to stop spending money on another gun. Continually buying new guns when what you already have works great is irresponsible, in my opinion. Something I feel is helpful in promoting the companies you support is letting other people try your gun. I loaned my mags to a couple of my co-workers who were shooting tippmann X-7s. They loved the mags. One of them said "Next year when I buy a paintball gun you're coming shopping with me cause you know your stuff when it comes to guns!"

Well, what do you guys think? Is there an effective way to support quality companies without buying their latest marker? I'm listening.


Drew

[Hilltop Customs]

I think he meant more with his whole mentality of how he doesn't care what happens to the market after he has what he wants, and he's right, he is irresponsible, because if the market goes down then we're all screwed as far as paintball.

why is it irresponsible as a consumer to get what they want, and if it works and keeps them happy, why should worry about the market? Its not the customers responsibility to worry about the market.....its the manufactures responsibility to follow and try to lead the market. Customers can support products by word of mouth advertising but expecting more is expecting too much. You cannot ask customers to buy 10 of the same thing, and you cant expect customers to push sales.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but as a consumer I dont want to be forced to advertise a product....my life is too commercialized already, I dont want to be forced to sell products.

All that being said, I've influenced many of my friends to buy AGD products and aftermarket accessories......not because I was expected to, but because I love the products.....more than that cant be expected of customers.

drewkroeker hits the nail on its head...

constantly releasing yearly revisions has the effect of expanding the customer base, and expanding how many people see/feel/get to use the marker, and therefore have a greater influence of buying one in the future. Then theres also the "Pro" influence to consider, but the pros can only influence people who watch the pros, not the whole paintball market.

man, I should have wrote my report instead of this. lol
please dont take it as being harsh, I dont mean it to be

[WARPED1]

I been using SP products since 1990-91, when they were just a barrel company. Then they started growing. And from then on, they were considered one of this industrys leaders. Thet were used by a majority of people who loved then and swore by there accuracy. It wasn't until SP's legal department came up with the stupid idea to claim the patent on electro guns, driving out the "little man", it wasn't until this point that the majority here on AO suddenly said SP was crap, always have been.
So, I will continue to shoot SP and use thiere parts. I have been on sponsored SP teams, and even if I wasn't I still used lots of thier stuff. Having watched this game grow from when I started in 1988-89 or so, SP has always been there, and most likely, always will.

[snoopay700]

why is it irresponsible as a consumer to get what you want, and if it works and keeps them happy, why should worry about the market? Thats what a customer does. Its not the customers responsibility to worry about the market.....its the manufactures responsibility to follow and try to lead the market. This is how it works. Customers can support products by word of mouth advertising but expecting more is expecting too much. You cannot ask customers to buy 10 of the same thing, and you cant expect customers to push sales.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but as a consumer I dont want to be forced to advertise a product....my life is too commercialized already, I dont want to be forced to sell products.

All that being said, I've influenced many of my friends to buy AGD products and aftermarket accessories......not because I was expected to, but because I love the products.....more than that cant be expected of customers.

drewkroeker hits the nail on its head...

constantly releasing yearly revisions has the effect of expanding the customer base, and expanding how many people see/feel/get to use the marker, and therefore have a greater influence of buying one in the future. Then theres also the "Pro" influence to consider, but the pros can only influence people who watch the pros, not the whole paintball market.

man, I should have wrote my report instead of this. lol
please dont take it as being harsh, I dont mean it to be
No, i get what you mean, and i'm not saying you should be expected to advertise the product, but to say you don't give a damn about the market when you playing depends on it, that is irresponsible and will get you screwed over in the end. Like i said, if teh market goes down, paintballs stop being produced, we all stop playing, i'm not saying that you should buy a lot of markers, but to say that you don't give a damn what happens to the market after you find the setup you like is fairly irresponsible to me. Again, not saying there is much he could do, but he made it sound like he didn't care what happened to the sport as long as he could play, and i hate people like that, maybe it stems from me hating business men that act the same way, and government officials and such...

Not saying i hate him actually, i hate the outlook he has, i don't know enough to actually hate him though.

[Hilltop Customs]

No, i get what you mean, and i'm not saying you should be expected to advertise the product, but to say you don't give a damn about the market when you playing depends on it, that is irresponsible and will get you screwed over in the end. Like i said, if teh market goes down, paintballs stop being produced, we all stop playing, i'm not saying that you should buy a lot of markers, but to say that you don't give a damn what happens to the market after you find the setup you like is fairly irresponsible to me. Again, not saying there is much he could do, but he made it sound like he didn't care what happened to the sport as long as he could play, and i hate people like that, maybe it stems from me hating business men that act the same way, and government officials and such...

Not saying i hate him actually, i hate the outlook he has, i don't know enough to actually hate him though.

I see where your coming from, but he no matter how much he doesnt care about the market; as long as he is playing paintball, he is part of the market....and as long as joe blow is in the market, paintball isnt going down....no matter how much he doesnt care. :cool:

Also, just because joe blow is satisfied by what he has now, doesnt mean that something coming out in the future might not better satisfy his demands. Something like that will has a high chance of be purchased by joe, so he is still a large part of the market, even if he doesnt think so.

[snoopay700]

I see where your coming from, but he no matter how much he doesnt care about the market; as long as he is playing paintball, he is part of the market....and as long as joe blow is in the market, paintball isnt going down....no matter how much he doesnt care. :cool:

Also, just because joe blow is satisfied by what he has now, doesnt mean that something coming out in the future might not better satisfy his demands. Something like that will has a high chance of be purchased by joe, so he is still a large part of the market, even if he doesnt think so.
But the main thing is his attitude about the whole thing is irresponsible, i can understand not wanting to buy another marker (well not me personally, as i plan on having a collection of markers) but his whole attitude of not even caring about the market is irresponsible, even if he does support the paint suppliers he still has a horrible attitude, and that's mainly what i had a problem with.

[Hilltop Customs]

But the main thing is his attitude about the whole thing is irresponsible, i can understand not wanting to buy another marker (well not me personally, as i plan on having a collection of markers) but his whole attitude of not even caring about the market is irresponsible, even if he does support the paint suppliers he still has a horrible attitude, and that's mainly what i had a problem with.

Dont worry about it man, everyone has different attitudes. You have an interest in where paintball is going, he might just want to play paintball. Theres not really that big of a difference, as we will all end up wherever paintball is going as long as we keep playing. :)

[snoopay700]

Dont worry about it man, everyone has different attitudes. You have an interest in where paintball is going, he might just want to play paintball. Theres not really that big of a difference, as we will all end up wherever paintball is going as long as we keep playing. :)
I know, just saying it's how he expressed himself that got to me, because i'm not supporting the market any more than him right now, but i am still buying paint and supporting it and i do care what happens to the market. I just found his whole outlook of "i don't care what happens to this sport i like to play" to be rather irresponsible. I did overreact a tad though, one of the essays i was writing at the time got me in a sort of mood about stuff like that.

[Konigballer]

I agree with Hilltop, its not my responsibility, or any other consumer, to worry about the paintball market.

I play paintball, and I own a minimum of markers necessary for me to continue doing that. I don't buy, trade and sell the things like baseball cards. So the paintball market enters into a slump for a period of time, like everything else is in our present economy. That means little to me continuing to play paintball really. I don't have the latest and greatest, and it's not like my local field will shut down because a few people don't feel like buying the latest shocker or ego. Its not like we won't be able to buy paintballs. The sport of paintball isn't suddenly going to de-invent.. Every market, every sport, has highs and lows, ebs and flows. That doesn't mean I have to put on a costume and start crusading for the sport of paintball at the local grocery store, town hall or paintball field..

Also, for the love of God can people just drop the crying about the whole SP thing? It happened, deal with it, and move on. I officially joined here in '03 and people were constantly complaining about SP, and now here it is '08 and more of the same. For better or for worse SP chose to do what they did IN THE NAME OF BUSINESS! The name of business is making money, and busisness isn't always fair. Any close scrutiny of the actions of major companies in other markets will show you the same thing.

AGD is now a niche company, and has been for some time, instead of one of the top players in the industry. Thats just how things panned out, what more can be said? It doesn't diminish what they did in the past, or the quality of what they still make. They just command a much smaller market share now. Theirs nothing wrong with that really, paintball supports niche companys. AGD, and the Automag, are a LEGACY in this sport, and always will be. Something like that doesn't die, there will always be ways to get parts for your classic mag or x-mag, because of people who care about the legacy of AGD and the products they made. This forum itself is proof of that. I'm 27 and only now about to get my first mag, but I've wanted one since I saw my first APG in '92 as a kid! Its similar to the way that, on a larger scale, hot rodders will always be able to buy parts for, or build from scratch, a '32 Ford highboy, or a '70 Plymouth Cuda decades after those cars ceased production or their respective makers went out of business. Legacy's never die.

Also, as a member of the 'A5 Operators' forum, another great bunch of guys, I can say that AGD's reputation of quality and performance is well known among many of the members of that forum also. So what if the paintball market hits a slump, or all the agg kids collectively fall off a cliff, or AGD remains a niche company in the greater market forever. At the end of the day, 'Quality Always Shoots Straight' and people will not forget that no matter what the market does. My two cents.

[WARPED1]

I agree with Hilltop, its not my responsibility, or any other consumer, to worry about the paintball market.

.Agreed whole heartedly.