what do you want in a marker???? [Archive] - Automags.Org Online Forums

Hilltop Customs

10-02-2008, 11:52 PM

alright you may have seen my other threads with the title "whats your favorite.....?"

I'm thinking those threads were too specific, so here comes another one......

generally......what do you want in a marker????

2 obvious ones by the market are wieght and size.....they are both common goals, other than standouts like AKA vikings(I have to admit Ive always loved since I picked up at the IAO in 03) the market has tended toward this.

I know everyone hates smart parts right??? the only way to get around them is innovation....come up with some idea which seems stpid and throw it out there, this is the only way the market will advance past what we have now.

I for one am a believer in innovation,ex: I present an idea, someone else builds on it, and I build on their idea in return.

My idea for awhile has been go back to mechanical, as you may have seen in other threads that I have posted in I am a firm believer in 1 shot 1 pull, especailly when we can have pneumags capable of ROF similar to electonic-semi markers. What is the purpose of ramping other than to waste paint???? wouldnt you rather have a variable rate of fire rather than ramping up to 13bps(or whatever it is now) instanly after you pull more than 3 shots a second???

IDK ive always played semi over ramping, even when I had the ramping option......if you feel differently feel free to tear me a new butthole.....I honestly just want to learn about others opinions from this thread.

just to start it off, for me the number 1 goal would be to not limit the ROF, or the volume of paint(around 200 balls be4 reloading) while reducing profile of the marker. Anyone feel differently??

edit: sorry for cussing, didnt realize the other word for butt was still considered a curse

y0da900

10-03-2008, 06:39 AM

I know everyone hates smart parts right??? the only way to get around them is innovation....come up with some idea which seems stpid and throw it out there, this is the only way the market will advance past what we have now.

I for one am a believer in innovation,ex: I present an idea, someone else builds on it, and I build on their idea in return.

My idea for awhile has been go back to mechanical, as you may have seen in other threads that I have posted in I am a firm believer in 1 shot 1 pull, especailly when we can have pneumags capable of ROF similar to electonic-semi markers. What is the purpose of ramping other than to waste paint???? wouldnt you rather have a variable rate of fire rather than ramping up to 13bps(or whatever it is now) instanly after you pull more than 3 shots a second???

That was some of the meaning behind starting the open source paintball marker subforum/group. It seems to have lost steam though, I'm the only one that's posted in there in months. There are two separate threads that I've started in there you might want to take a look through.

That said, I want efficiency and reliability. Prefferably without batteries. And a design that is just plain cool. Not just another poppet valve or tweaked version of the Matrix.

ManInBlack

10-03-2008, 07:12 AM

I say ergonomics are very important. It has to feel balanced in my hands, the trigger needs to be where I can reach it comfortably, and aiming needs to feel natural. I'll take these over light weight and high ROF any day.

Toll

10-03-2008, 09:37 AM

15 bps - I don't care about breakout/etc. Standardized modes

Eyes that work and work well.

1k off a 45/45

Cocker threaded

Multiple frame options so that it feels GOOD in my hand without me having to put shop time in.

Made in Canada/USA - I will pay the extra money for quality

Stock equipment that is GOOD. Barrel I don't really care about because I can assure you that I will be using a different one but stock regs have to be good. Stock trigger has to be nice.

Microswitched. NO MORE OPTO SWITCHES ~.~

Equa-Link style cable that mounts to USB so I may tweak things without needing to use LEDS. Lacking that, I want an LCD screen to let me fine tune dwell/delay/etc.

Balance. Please no more milled down tubes to make things as light as possible. I want a marker that is balanced in my hands and gives me confidence when I am switching hands, running and gunning/etc

trevorjk

10-03-2008, 01:05 PM

i wouldnt mind some wall hacks or a UAV transponder so that i can see where the enemy is on the field even if they are hiding.

Stayhuge

10-03-2008, 01:30 PM

For me, these are the characteristics in order:

1) Accuracy
2) Reliability
3) Efficiency
4) Weight
5) Appearance

Right now, I have a Phoenix Mag with a Chimera frame. I have been using a Freak with SS inserts, which has been dead on for me. I just bought an APEX Freak Tip to see how much more range I could get, and I was really supprised. It gave me an edge in Woodsball against the others. Flat Lines can still out shoot me, but I have better accuracy then them at a distance, and more distance then the regular players. This weekend I am going to work on getting some pics up of my mag with the barrel. Supprisingly, it looks pretty bad ***. :headbang:

snoopay700

10-03-2008, 07:34 PM

What im designing right now. ;)

Hilltop Customs

10-04-2008, 01:24 AM

Thanks for the replies so far guys! They are all great....keep them coming, and feel free to re-emphasize or build on what others have already pointed out.

y0da900: I think I read every post in the open source sub-forum, I cant remember if I posted in there or not, but I do remember thinking that any new thread started in there was pretty much dead before it was posted since it is kind of a hidden sub-forum of AO. :( I mean Im sure there are some people that would notice a new post in there, but I know there would be a good possibility of me missing a new post in there, and I'm really interested in the topic of the sub-forum. I will be posting a few things in there pretty soon though. ;)

ManInBlack: you just made me very happy, I was hoping someone would come out recognizing ergo early on. So I have to ask, what makes you comfortable/uncomfortable with a maker? Does a stacked tube marker suit sighting better than a single tube design? What if you could sight directly down the barrel the top of the barrel with no obstruction? Rails/aftermarket drop forwards allow for stock adjustment, is a fixed ASA point like the Mini's a real drawback, or are you willing to buy a tank to suit your needs?

Toll: Nice list, very specific! From the sounds of it, you are mostly interested in electronic markers, would you ever consider buying a mechanical? If not, what do you see as their limitations? Also, you mention balanced....what do you consider a good balance? Would be a marker that can be held comfortably with single handed gripping only the frame? or would it be a marker, which when held shouldered in the firing position, can be comfortably supported with only the foregrip? or any other description you can come up with.

trevorjk: I'll get to work on an integrated UAV HUD mask right away :cool:

Stayhuge: Thats interesting, I've never looked too much at the apex, have to give it another look. I like your list because it makes decisions about trade offs easy to answer. Say a change in design will decrease efficiency, but increase consistency...your list would say you want the best consistency even with a slight decrease in effiency. I have a question for you too....I see reliability is high on your list, reliability and amount of maintenance are closely related so: When does reliability/maintenance become too much of a hassle? (is lubing a before a day of play too much to ask?)

snoopay700: do tell ;) :p

I'm half tempted to post this over at peanut butter nation just to get the AGG responses, but I just cant bring myself to venture over there :rofl:

Toll

10-04-2008, 02:41 AM

Mechanical limitations are primarily because the system is complicated compared to electronic and not nearly as modular in most cases.

Eyes are a primary concern because I hate breaking paint. Level 10 isn't fool proof.

I find a marker that I can fire with one hand and have it be comfortable to be my preference just because of the way I hold it/shoot. I love 90 degree frames and single trigger ramping is generally speaking awesome.

Ninjeff

10-04-2008, 02:54 AM

Modular.

Of all the things great about Automags, if im being honest, i mean REALLY honest, my favorite thing is that they are modular. No muss, no fuss, with a few exceptions, one mag can swap parts with just about any other mag. Sears, valves, bolts, frames, rails, bodies, foregrips etc etc.

It keeps the "custom" bug going.

Hilltop Customs

10-04-2008, 03:58 AM

Toll: I agree about eyes and breaking paint, electronic eyes are the best solution out there, but do you consider a force fed hopper acceptable as preventing chops? I built my ep mag planning on adding eyes, but between lvl 10 and a halo, I havent had a single chop in 3 cases(i know its not much, but I havent had a chance to play much this year) You bring up a great point about ramping with a single trigger :cheers:

Ninjeff: I agree, but where universal parts really shine through is over years of production and creation of aftermarket parts market. Constantly updating the design with slight changes(yearly updates) has the benifit of producing yearly sales for the creator of the marker, but has the drawback of damaging the profitability of aftermarket parts since they can only be applied to a single year of a marker. Aftermarket parts are what allows a user to make their marker their own.

How do you guys feel about a MTO(made to order) marker. You order it direct from the manufacture, specifying what you want.....hopper or warp fed, grip frame angle, (What would you want for options, be realistic?) AGD started doing this through their website, but implemented late in their sales life. How about a service that allows you to ship direct to an annodizer(or done in house) for the color/design of your choice?

Toll

10-04-2008, 06:35 AM

Eyes are so common and "easy" now that it seems a shame not to have them on there in the grand scheme of things. I like the extra little insurance policy incase something goes wrong. Never hurts to have them.

More over depending who you are pitching the idea to might not be as level 10 confident as we are or maybe they want the efficiency assosciated with level 7...Good luck getting an agglet to look at a marker that doesnt have atleast 1 set of eyes -_-

tech-chan

10-04-2008, 07:14 AM

I want a mechanical option for single shot and three shot burst in a comfortable and ergonomic tactical package. Which so happens to be what I'm working on.....

Sundown

10-04-2008, 07:21 AM

Well it really depends on your targeted players. Someone who plays pro speedball will not want the same things as someone who plays only woodsball. And ROF would be one of the things :)
I like reliability, but I also take car of my gun before and after each game. So it's not because I do not maintain my gun :)
I also like accuracy, but the barrel and paint is a huge factor for this :) Not really the gun itself.
Ergonomic is also important as I want my gun to feel good and natural.
I also want my gun mechanical.
Efficiency is good, but not that important as I don't shoot that much in a game. But a plus :)
Weight is plus. But I will not limit my choice to the lightest markers out there.
Appearance is cool, but to a limit. It will not help my game :) haha

Sundown

10-04-2008, 07:25 AM

I want a mechanical option for single shot and three shot burst in a comfortable and ergonomic tactical package. Which so happens to be what I'm working on.....

You working on a project...nice. And I also like your options :)
Do you have a thread on this?

punkncat

10-04-2008, 07:33 AM

To deviate for just a moment.....I know a lot of people are not crazy about ramping, and want "one shot one pull". I actually enjoy ramping markers and am really glad that the decision was made to reduce that ramp to the current 13.3 ramp for many series. To a non competative player, it may be a non issue. I know that when I play rec ball, I prefer to use a mechanical marker.

On to what I want:

Personally I think that the Invert Mini has pretty much embodied everything I want in a marker. It is simple to work on, small, light, efficent. The only thing I do not like about it stock per se is that the board is not as adjustable as I would like it to be. It has not been enough of an issue to actually go spend the $100+ on rectifying it, but I sure do enjoy the features available on the Virtue boarded markers I own.

So to summarize:
Light, efficent, no external air lines, easy to work on, highly adjustable and customizable electronic board. I like a single tube design for the profile. Big trigger guard for ease. Steeper than 45* frames, as I really like 90's. LP operation for depth into the HPA tank.

As another side point, I am still suprized to see people clamoring over "accurate" markers. As if one design is inherently more accurate than another. I suppose that its a throwback to the cocker and low pressure hype that has been made over the years. But that is another discussion, for another thread.

ManInBlack

10-04-2008, 08:28 AM

ManInBlack: you just made me very happy, I was hoping someone would come out recognizing ergo early on. So I have to ask, what makes you comfortable/uncomfortable with a maker? Does a stacked tube marker suit sighting better than a single tube design? What if you could sight directly down the barrel the top of the barrel with no obstruction? Rails/aftermarket drop forwards allow for stock adjustment, is a fixed ASA point like the Mini's a real drawback, or are you willing to buy a tank to suit your needs?

Oh man, there are so many thing I could go into here. I prefer a single tube design because it's smaller. Vertical feed or powerfeed doesn't make too much of a difference because I'm comfortable sighting across both the side and the top of the gun. as for gun shape, I think the most comfortable gun I currently use is my classic RT. The foregrip is just far enough ahead to make aiming easy. I didn't think I'd like that because I hate the way tippman 98's are set up, but the tippman's front grip is angled and the RT's is vertical. Also, the RT's front grip is textured rubber, so it's very easy to hold onto, gloves or not. I have wood grips on mine, which is also nice for a right hander. If I could get the wood grip shape in the textured rubber or otherwise stickie compound it would work really well, and I would feel more comfortable running/diving/etc. with it. Also, the center of gravity should be just in front of the grip (with hopper and tank attached).

As for drop forwards I am used to a large drop because I like to tuck the gun right into me. It helps me with aiming and with holding the gun steady while shooting. That being said I use a cocker with a fixed tank mounting point like a mini, but only in woodsball where there's more room to move around.

I've never shot a gun with anything but a 45 style grip, but I think I'd like something more vertical or beyond(Z/Y grip like), especially in tight setups. Maybe something like the Chimera, but not as tall.

Here's another thought on grips. It might be more comfortable, if not a little awkward, to have a grip rotated slightly. Clockwise for lefties and counter-clockwise for righties. Know what I'm talking about? I figure if your arm/elbow is cocked out from your body and the grip faces straight forward then you have to bend your wrist back to get it inline with the grip to hold on and shoot. Make sense?

GoatBoy

10-04-2008, 12:02 PM

ManInBlack: It's nice to see someone thinking seriously about ergonomics for a change. Let me toss another tidbit for you to think about: the trigger should not pulled backwards to fire. It should be on the side of the grip frame. That way you don't have to curl your fingers backwards to fire (which is like making all the keys on a keyboard facing forward so that you have to press them toward your body to type). Instead, the trigger should run perpendicular to your palm. If you shoot with only one hand (like I do since I use a q-loader), the trigger only needs to be on the right side of the grip frame.

Anyways, to the original topic...

I basically want an Invert Mini with a dovetail sight rail on the top of the body, y-grip, warp left, the ability to mount a q-loader in the side position (like w warp), and a foregrip that has been changed up (needs to go a little forward so it doesn't run into the y-grip, and while they're at it they should use the extra space to fix the shape of the foregrip back to normal tube size).

In black.

Optional: body can also accommodate a normal hopper feed neck on top, CO2 compatibility.

The Mini is really close to what I want, but it lacks a few critical items.

I'm pretty sure I'd be mowing people down with a gun in this configuration.

Hilltop Customs

10-04-2008, 02:41 PM

man, I had a huge reply to each one of your comments typed out(talking 2 pages single spaced), and my sister, who is visiting, closed the damn window.....I'll have to retype it tonight if I get the chance.

Keep them coming guys, every single reply has been excellent and most appreciated!!! Feel free to go off on tangents discussing points, build on things other people bring to the table....try not to be negative, but if you see something that you dont agree with point out your opinion, but always remember everybodys opinion is right.

tech-chan

10-04-2008, 05:17 PM

You working on a project...nice. And I also like your options :)
Do you have a thread on this?

Thanks man, and I'm afraid I don't. I'm smack in the middle of the design and I think I've hit a snag. Otherwise it's looking and working beautifully.

snoopay700

10-04-2008, 07:17 PM

Oh hilltop, youve seen my design in the workshop, thats about as much as ill tell. I hate this keyboard, the apostrophe doesnt work.

Sundown

10-04-2008, 10:02 PM

Oh hilltop, youve seen my design in the workshop, thats about as much as ill tell. I hate this keyboard, the apostrophe doesnt work.

Yeah I'm also looking forward to looking at your project as well.
I really give you guys 2 thumbs up to be actually ''building'' a marker... You guys got skills man.. I would not be able to do that :) haha..
no skills for that at all ;) haha

MANN

10-04-2008, 10:08 PM

an xmag with better reflective eye & about 1-2lbs lighter

Hilltop Customs

10-04-2008, 11:30 PM

Oh hilltop, youve seen my design in the workshop, thats about as much as ill tell. I hate this keyboard, the apostrophe doesnt work.

hehe tell me about it I'm stuck on a laptop keyboard right now.....I hate these things. Sorry, I'm not typing replies on this thing its too much of a PITA, I already have a paper to type up....I swear my progress is slower on this thing than my normal keyboard because of correcting all these little mistakes. Just goes to show ergonomics extend well into performance and isnt just about being comfortable. Oh and this computer doesnt have firefox spell check :(

Wicked_Silence

10-04-2008, 11:39 PM

Well to get in on this late, my main wants in a marker would be:

1, Comfort level. If it doesn't feel comfortable in my hands, I'm not going to be able to be comfortable using it. A good center of gravity helps with this and so does a grip/frame that can be made to fit my hands. Some guys have huge hands and others have the exact opposite. Kinda like sizing of gloves, ya got smallthru to ex-large, so why not have grips/frames the same way?

2. Mechanical. I know I'm probably going to raise some temper levels with this but.... I feel that if ya gotta rely on a battery and an electronic board to shoot fast, then your not doing the work, the board is. Ramping and full auto are just a waste in my opinion. I mean, when are you EVER going to need to shoot 20+ BPS to shoot 1 guy? I've seen guys walk a mech trigger and they can get just as fast as these guys with all the electronic gadgets, but its because they've played with their marker for quite some time and figured out what works for them and they are COMFORTABLE (see above comment) with it. People these days seem to be in a big rush and think that firing fast makes them good.

3. Efficiency. I play some day long games and nothing makes me madder then when I get into a good firing position but run out of air long before I run out of paint. At that point, ya either act as bait or call yourself out and go gas up again.

4. Durability. I like markers that can take abuse while playing. I mean I'm not going to go outta my way to destroy my marker, but if I'm runing along and take fire unexpectedly and need to get into cover, I don't have to worry about how my marker might take the fall, or if it will still be intact when I bring it up to return fire. I saw someone run past a door to get to the wall on the far side and in doing so, his marker did impact the wall. The E-trigger on his A5 (I think thats what it was) literally desintegrated and he was left walking off the field with the wires, board and battery just hanging there.

5. Customizable. I gotta say that I personally hate uniformity in alot of things and my marker is included. I want it to be as unique as I am. So variable set up options for a marker, kinda like what someone already said about having your marker made to order. A variety of accessory options in aftermarket parts would be a big plus too.

Stayhuge

10-05-2008, 01:46 AM

Stayhuge: Thats interesting, I've never looked too much at the apex, have to give it another look. I like your list because it makes decisions about trade offs easy to answer. Say a change in design will decrease efficiency, but increase consistency...your list would say you want the best consistency even with a slight decrease in effiency. I have a question for you too....I see reliability is high on your list, reliability and amount of maintenance are closely related so: When does reliability/maintenance become too much of a hassle? (is lubing a before a day of play too much to ask?)

Yea, the Apex definitely surprised me. I still have a regular 14 inch tip that I use here and there, but the Apex is fun to play around with sometimes. As for the reliability and maintenance factors, I agree that they are closely related. Low maintenance markers, cough, Mags, cough, generally are more reliable, but I don't have a problem with maintenance. If you were to tell me that if I took the marker apart after every game, and cleaned the old oil, and put some new oil in there, that I will NEVER have a problem, then I would agree that that is a reliable marker. The best part that I find about Mags and Tippmanns, is that they require very little maintenance, and almost never fail. They are the BEST backups in my opinion, and for most of us, the best main gun. I like the simplistic nature of them. Turn off safety, pull trigger, and ball shoots. For me, accuracy and reliability go hand in hand. Ideally, I want those the most, and am willing to trade the other three factors for them. Fortunately, with my Phoenix Mag, I only have to trade efficiency. I think it only weighs a little over 2 lbs. Which to me is pretty light. And is looks pretty cool. Not trying to keep plugging mags (well maybe a little) but really the only problem that I see with them is that they are inefficient. One thing that I must say is that the way that they built the emag/xmag is PURE GENIUS. Being able to switch from electronic to mechanical with the flip of a switch is really amazing. And the design is so simple. :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail:

snoopay700

10-05-2008, 11:31 PM

hehe tell me about it I'm stuck on a laptop keyboard right now.....I hate these things. Sorry, I'm not typing replies on this thing its too much of a PITA, I already have a paper to type up....I swear my progress is slower on this thing than my normal keyboard because of correcting all these little mistakes. Just goes to show ergonomics extend well into performance and isnt just about being comfortable. Oh and this computer doesnt have firefox spell check :(
Oh, i love firefox spellcheck, it's saved me a few times from words i don't know, although apparently it doesn't recognize Firefox unless it's capitalized, which i just found out as i typed it. Anyway yeah, i actually tried to tweak my design and then realized that it wouldn't work as well and so i've yet to change it back, now i just have to work on ergonomics and such, where everything goes, air flow being the most efficient it can be, making sure it will withstand 3000 psi to adhere to the good old double safety rule, and i think that's going to be the part that might kill it, so i may just have to make it run at a lower pressure. I also have to add in a special part so i can use one specific o-ring from a mag and also make sure that there are no spots where a vacuum would slow it down. So yeah, i'm not really anywhere near ready to make a prototype yet, mainly because of school and girls.

Empyreal Rogue

10-06-2008, 12:09 AM

What am I looking for in a marker?

A Cyborg.

Hilltop Customs

10-06-2008, 08:06 PM

Trying to type this out quick while I have a couple minutes, then back to writing reports....didnt even get a chance to work on my model :(

Toll:: Would you consider a mechanically firing marker if it had eyes?....dont have time to go in depth, but just use your imagination....

tech-chan: I was considering a full auto, or fire on pull and release....but if these options are included, I want the ability to switch between back to semi....it could be a simple part change, but I would want it to require a max of 1 screw removal. Also I'm kind of worried about these types of modes surpassing field/tournament limits.

Sundown: I agree completely on the different designs for different players, thats why I started this thread :D I know what I want, I'm interested in everyone else wants. Thanks for joining in and sharing!

punkncat: I knew no airlines was coming....If I may ask, do you see yourself ever purchasing another marker with external airlines? I hate the idea of airlines, its just one exposed area that can leak, be caught on stuff, and generally gets in the way. I agree the Mini is something to benchmark features against, Ive wanted to buy one for a long time just to get a better look at them.

ManInBlack: Man your description of grips just about convinced me into looking into making custom grips for my project, specifically with an ergonomic shape. I really like your idea on twisting the grip....if this prototype works out, I might just try something like that as an alternate grip type. That would angle your wrist out slightly so the tank would be able to be high and tight to the grip frame, reducing the overall size of the marker. :clap:

GoatBoy: YES! I have thought that same thing so many times when adjusting triggers way out.....my fingers feel cramped on most frames and I tend to pull the trigger more toward my palm then back toward the frame like the trigger pivots. If you could extend the trigger out and pull it more like your tapping your fingers on a table.....imagine how comfortable that would be. We copied a trigger which was used for firing 1 bullet at a time extremely slowly by paintball's standards. :cheers: CO2 is something I really want to be compatible with, but I doubt it will happen with the size of 1 seal that has the possibility of freezing, but then again it might be ok. PS: I like what you want....a lot.... I bet youd like what I'm working on....a lot ;)

Hilltop Customs

10-06-2008, 08:07 PM

Apparently my post was too long and had too many images, so I'm breaking it apart....

Thanks man, and I'm afraid I don't. I'm smack in the middle of the design and I think I've hit a snag. Otherwise it's looking and working beautifully.
If you want to share, I'd be glad to help if possible, if your uncomfortable dont feel pressured, I wouldnt want to put anyone in that type of situation.

MANN: mmm xmags so sexy....if you could change 1 thing about the xmag, other than what you mentioned, what would it be? Other than putting it back in production :(

Wicked_Silence: Your not late, I like how you think of sizing.....what about grips like the wrap around grips, but have them in different sizes? Might have to be a variant and not completely wrap around or something(patents :rolleyes: ) I agree with you about durability, Ive dove into trees plenty of times(couple night games, long stories :rofl: ) and I would be pissed to have come out with a broken marker, I'm not going to be cutting crash frames thin just to save a few grams....not that theres anything wrong with that, but removing material can only go so far before you start seeing failures :cool:

Stayhuge: I agree about mags, I have a classic in my bag which has been sitting there for 2 years. I would bet $100 that I could pull it out of the bag, put 3 drops of oil in the ASA, air it up and within 20 shots there would be no leaks. Finding another gun that will convey that kind of reliability is impossible.

snoopay700: I agree about the safety issue, I am thinking of including something like a blow off valve if pressure exceeds max input pressure. I dont want the back half of anyone's gun turning into a hand grenade. Blow off valve might work for you also ;) my girl is 200 miles away, school is whats killing my progress....good thing its over in a couple months, but I want to have the first prototype done before graduation.

Empyreal Rogue: Is there absolutely anything on the borg that your even partially uncomfortable with? any improvements anywhere?

I know I probably missed someones post, but I tried to get them all....sorry for the short replys :rolleyes: , I had a lot more to say, but not enough time to say it. Once again, these replies have been nothing short of amazing, keep them coming :headbang:

Empyreal Rogue

10-06-2008, 08:57 PM

Empyreal Rogue: Is there absolutely anything on the borg that your even partially uncomfortable with? any improvements anywhere?

Seems tall. Even for a stacked tube design. If the Cyborg could be a single tube marker... Hm, actually if it were it would probably be very long.

The point I was trying to make, is that for me all I want is something efficient and capable. By capable I mean something can be fast when I want it to be, or not fast when I don't want it to be.

snoopay700

10-06-2008, 09:15 PM

Yeah, i was thinking of a blow-off valve, dunno where i'd put it though. And also, the worst part about it is i don't really have a girl but i do, one of those sitiations (yes it's spelled wrong for you grammar nazis) and i'm also not entirely sure i want to be in it. That and also wanting to drive and not being able to is getting to me.

211

10-06-2008, 09:29 PM

ManInBlack

10-06-2008, 10:41 PM

Durability-I play hard, my gun needs to be able to also
reliability-when I pull the trigger it needs to shoot, every time
simplicity-If I have a problem it needs to be easy to analyse and fix, and not require proprietary parts

I love the mech/electro firing modes on the Emag

Good thought there. I'd like to be able to fix it with easy to come by parts. Like, as many o-rings in it as possible should be the same size and interchangeable.

Wicked_Silence

10-06-2008, 10:50 PM

Wicked_Silence: Your not late, I like how you think of sizing.....what about grips like the wrap around grips, but have them in different sizes? Might have to be a variant and not completely wrap around or something(patents :rolleyes: ) I agree with you about durability, Ive dove into trees plenty of times(couple night games, long stories :rofl: ) and I would be pissed to have come out with a broken marker, I'm not going to be cutting crash frames thin just to save a few grams....not that theres anything wrong with that, but removing material can only go so far before you start seeing failures :cool:

Thanks, and if ya patent the idea. I'll only want 2% kickback instead of the usual 5%. Actually, when I mentioned sizing, I meant building frames themselves to fit into someones hand. With minor modifications, most trigger frames could be build smaller in both depth and maybe a little in thickness. I've seen people pick up some markers (can't remember what they were offhand) and while 1 guy in a group could fully wrap his hand around the grip frame, the smallest guy in the group could barely wrap his fingers around enough to just hold the gun. Also, this could work for females (smaller hands overall) and youngsters (their hands are almost always small). Ya see what I'm getting at now?

Sundown

10-06-2008, 10:58 PM

Another thing that might be very interesting is variety. I mean a marker with options... you want electro or mech.. you want 90 degree frame.. or 45 or Hybrid.
Having a marker that we can customize to our own style when buying it.
But for a one man show.. this might be hard to do :) haha
And very expensive if you make different models for different people.

Hilltop: I looked at your project in the workshop and it looks real good. Keep up the work and you will get costumers :)

Hilltop Customs

10-07-2008, 02:03 PM

Empyreal Rogue: I get what your saying now, you want the capabilities of the borg in a marker...how would you say an emag stacks up against a borg in your requirements? efficiency is better and the borg gets more shots per tank correct? Does that weigh heavily on your opinion of a marker similar to the emag and a borg?

snoopay700: The way I take the whole long distance relationship is this: if you miss them then you should probably try to stay with them.....and if you dont, well then you have a choice to make. I'm in the same situation, and its weird I dont really miss her.....well I miss the girl, dont miss the drama she starts. As for the whole blow off valve, what about just designing in a non-catastrophic failure point to allow you to continue on? this would let you prototype and test the design without worry.....if over pressurization occurs, you just need to replace the part the weak point is designed in. Just an idea to consider, I'd rather have a cheap replaceable burst disk, but if you cant fit it. You could always machine a path from the high pressure area to an area you can mount the burst disk, but with this you have to remember the burst disk will lag, so you have to be careful.

211 and ManInBlack: all great points. Keeping number and types of parts help for costs too, and one of my main goals is keeping the cost as low as possible. ;) Unfortunately, with most of the things I have designed so far, nothing is off the shelf. I wish the mech/electro was an option, but for now I'm trying to stay away from electros. I agree though, mech/electro would be my first choice except for the massive cost increase caused by you know who.

Wicked_Silence: Thats the same thing I was getting at too :) I would have to take some statistics on how large of grips people prefer would require a bunch of prototypes for people to try out and make a choice aboutt(this is important because if you make the grip frame size too small, you have to use more rubber to compensate for bigger hands, which creates more cost), but something like that is definitely considerable. Oh btw, I dont think I'm going to patent anything in the paintball market, got some other ideas that

Sundown: About the order/customization....I have big plans :D a designed to order product is more expensive to produce, but if everything is done in house, the added cost drops dramatically.....dont get me wrong a designed to order product will be more expensive, but it would still be significantly under the cost of top of the line markers today(in an ideal situation about half :eek: but that would only be in high production everything done in house other than small screws...maybe even them too).

Glad you like what you saw, that one would have worked, but it was wasting too much air for my tastes, and too many o-rings(about on par with most markers today) This new one I'm not working on(school projects waste too much time) is different than any marker out there today, and I'm really looking forward to see how it works if I ever have time to finish it(should be complete before graduation in December)

What I really love about this thread, it fosters creative ideas....keep them coming!!!

Its funny, I'm supposedly consulting on a product for this graduating project, but I consider this more of consulting that anything Ive done in that stupid project. Here I'm interacting, judging demands, formulating ideas.....there I am given a design to slightly improve an un-marketable product to make the professors happy for a grade. Oh well, back to the bullish....I have to write a chemistry lab :rolleyes: wtf am I in chemisty for? I am becoming an industrial engineer(dont say "what if you work in a chemical plant?" unless you want slapped with a trout, this is basic chemistry that I took in 11th grade, repeated)

/ college is a waste of money rant :cuss:

8 weeks till I meet the real world, I hope their ready :cool:

snoopay700

10-07-2008, 02:08 PM

Yeah, lots of drama starts from her, she gets mad easy, it's pretty bad, and i've known her like 3 weeks.

Sundown

10-07-2008, 02:20 PM

8 weeks till I meet the real world, I hope their ready :cool:

So you are graduating really soon. Congrast
You probably mentioned this like 20 times, but I just caught it :) haha
Yeah, graduation is always a fun time.

And after you will have all the time you want for you project.

And I'm really looking forward to see what you will have in store ;).

But, as for customazing makers.. its really a nice thing. But in my mind it will take more time as you are not repeating the same thing over and over.
But, you probably know much more than me on this. So if it's worth it.. well that is excellent for us :) haha

Keep us posted.

Hilltop Customs

10-07-2008, 02:24 PM

Yeah, lots of drama starts from her, she gets mad easy, it's pretty bad, and i've known her like 3 weeks.

lol dude who cares then, unless youve fallen for her head over heals(I know what this is like too, cant see anything but her). Ive been living with my girl 4 years...its hard to think of not living with her after that long. Trust me though, if she gets mad easy now, its not worth it. I swear some girls stay in that demanding little girl mode and never become women....I want someone I can let my guard down around, tell anything to and not have to worry about them becoming pissed about little things. If they dont at least do that, then I'm not going to be happy, and thats just not going to work for me.

:cheers: good luck, just remember the demanding little girls will come right back when they dont get what they want and pretend its ok for a week then EXPLODE with anger about that old situation after its already in the past. Some people just hang on to drama, dont ask me why.

Hilltop Customs

10-07-2008, 02:30 PM

So you are graduating really soon. Congrast
You probably mentioned this like 20 times, but I just caught it :) haha
Yeah, graduation is always a fun time.

And after you will have all the time you want for you project.

And I'm really looking forward to see what you will have in store ;).

But, as for customazing makers.. its really a nice thing. But in my mind it will take more time as you are not repeating the same thing over and over.
But, you probably know much more than me on this. So if it's worth it.. well that is excellent for us :) haha

Keep us posted.

commonality among machine setups :D different parts using the same mounting mechanism....just need a change of code and the correct blank for the job, no added time whatsoever other than choosing the correct code. Also part holders which hold a few parts for a single processing will cut down that time even more. ;) :cheers:

thanks for the congrats, its been a long and painful wait, but now that I can see the light, its time to get to work, just wish I didnt have school in the way at this point.

Spider-TW

10-07-2008, 03:17 PM

Hilltop Customs

10-07-2008, 03:30 PM

I would like a mil-spec electronic marker. You did say want right? :)

If you can't build it like a satellite, then maybe like a car (a good one anyway :rolleyes: ). I want friction and pressure and temperature compensation real time on my regulator.

Other than battery power, there's plenty of common technology for potting and protecting electronics. I wish bluetooth was easy enough to put in the board as well.

The wiring could be hard bussed type, instead of these dinky little wires.

Pot all the low heat parts. Put as much work in the electronic design as TK put into the mag valve and you would at least have the guts of a real electronic marker. It would be one of the modules of the modular design. Like a T-board built like a brick with sensors. A 'trick brick'.

I don't really feel the need for a new mechanical marker. I have a golf bag of mags and if I'm playing with an electro that barfs on me, I'll go dig something else out. I don't want a back up mode, I want higher reliability in an electronic marker. With a good base, I will drill, clamp and ano any parts I have to add, but an industrial grade electronic marker is something I don't have.

hehehe, if I had the ability to program electronics(working on getting a guy to help me out with the feasibility of some of my ideas in that area) I would build a marker with an electronic controlled dwell that self adjusts to account for extreme ROF.....also the marker would have a built in chrono so each shot is chronod and the dwell is compensated to adjust to the set velocity if the average of the past X# of shots is low or high. its not that complex, surprised no one has done it yet....an LED, a sensor, some wiring, and a control board on just about any electronic gun. Does a forum post count as prior art? TK said this a long time ago, so hopefully smart parts doesnt try to take credit for it.

yea I did say "what do you want?"......if you dont mind me asking, how realistic? I go for simplicity, exterior features add complexity, but I agree mill-sim look would gain a lot of people's interests/attention, its one of the many exterior designs I'm thinking of. I like how mill-sim often involves mounting rails, expands possibilities of accessories.

your last line signifies why, if everything goes well with prototyping, I'll be almost hesitant in making a major investment into production. Its risky, because a mechanical marker may just get ignored for being mechanical. :(

sorry for the 4 edits....its an evolving post lol

snoopay700

10-07-2008, 04:00 PM

lol dude who cares then, unless youve fallen for her head over heals(I know what this is like too, cant see anything but her). Ive been living with my girl 4 years...its hard to think of not living with her after that long. Trust me though, if she gets mad easy now, its not worth it. I swear some girls stay in that demanding little girl mode and never become women....I want someone I can let my guard down around, tell anything to and not have to worry about them becoming pissed about little things. If they dont at least do that, then I'm not going to be happy, and thats just not going to work for me.

:cheers: good luck, just remember the demanding little girls will come right back when they dont get what they want and pretend its ok for a week then EXPLODE with anger about that old situation after its already in the past. Some people just hang on to drama, dont ask me why.
Yeah, well to tell you the truth i have no clue how it started, and she's fun and all but she's pretty insane. I swear i have some sort of magnet in my pocket, i always attract the ones that are insane. I'm now remembering why i didn't have a girlfriend when i had a car, they're much easier to deal with, and plus when you but them stuff you're actually glad you bought it. ;)

Hilltop Customs

10-07-2008, 04:06 PM

Yeah, well to tell you the truth i have no clue how it started, and she's fun and all but she's pretty insane. I swear i have some sort of magnet in my pocket, i always attract the ones that are insane. I'm now remembering why i didn't have a girlfriend when i had a car, they're much easier to deal with, and plus when you but them stuff you're actually glad you bought it. ;)

hehe your mentioning of a car reminds me of a Chris Rock comedy routine....girls always move up the food chain, at first they are happy just to have a boyfriend, then they meet a guy with a car. No more waiting around for rides or waiting in the cold for the bus.....they will never date a guy without a car again. Then they meet a guy with an apartment. No more hanging around the parents and having to be careful about "stuff"...they will never date a guy living at home again. Oh god, I forgot the punchline lol.

Yea, your glad you bought it for a night or two ;) but then they want more stuff and they have a headache haha

snoopay700

10-07-2008, 04:08 PM

hehe your mentioning of a car reminds me of a Chris Rock comedy routine....girls always move up the food chain, at first they are happy just to have a boyfriend, then they meet a guy with a car. No more waiting around for rides or waiting in the cold for the bus.....they will never date a guy without a car again. Then they meet a guy with an apartment. No more hanging around the parents and having to be careful about "stuff"...they will never date a guy living at home again. Oh god, I forgot the punchline lol.
Haha, yeah, i dunno, girls are trouble, like i definitely think i need them, but they just aggravate me so much sometimes. Anyway i found out how to actually make assemblies so i'm going to mate all teh parts in my sketch, i just roughly lined them up before. :rolleyes:

Spider-TW

10-07-2008, 04:13 PM

yea I did say "what do you want?"......if you dont mind me asking, how realistic? I go for simplicity, exterior features add complexity, but I agree mill-sim look would gain a lot of people's interests/attention, its one of the many exterior designs I'm thinking of. I like how mill-sim often involves mounting rails, expands possibilities of accessories.
Not necessarily mil-sim, just military specification components. A huge amount of money has gone into designing and building common components that meet particular failure rates. Some rates aren't that impressive, but the idea is that you know more about when they will die on you. Some parts are very expensive, but others are not that much more for making the specification.

Electronic failure can be solved by design, but the big problem is matching reliable actuators to your well programmed brick. Knowing the compensation factors for ROF and being able to kick the regulator around that fast are two different problems. That would definitely be 'bleeding edge' in terms of cost versus payback.

While I'm dreaming :sleeping: , there are chrome lined air cylinders and such that always seemed like they would be useful if you were building a whole new marker. Like picking out MPA-3s and MSV-2s to design around. I always liked Beswick's fittings and components (stainless :p ). The only problem with building with good off the shelf parts is that they are cheap because of some other market. If that other market dries up, so do your cheap parts. :cry:

Hilltop Customs

10-07-2008, 04:37 PM

the whole reason I like avoiding the use of off-the-shelf parts is, they are already set in stone and you have to design around them. If you can simply integrate their components or similar components(ever see the acrylic pneu-mag?) into your initial design, costs will drop dramatically....but on the other hand part numbers slightly increase. I see where you are coming from, and that would work extremely well is the production numbers were low(say custom grip frames like G Force), but I'm more interested in volume and fitting the marker into many configs to fit customer desires :)

Hilltop Customs

10-08-2008, 12:10 AM

Haha, yeah, i dunno, girls are trouble, like i definitely think i need them, but they just aggravate me so much sometimes. Anyway i found out how to actually make assemblies so i'm going to mate all teh parts in my sketch, i just roughly lined them up before. :rolleyes:

crap didnt see this, yeah mates will really help. :) Once you get everything mated up you can do interference detection(under evaluate tab in sworks 2008, just search in the help for it if you cant find it) It will tell you if you have any conflicting dimensions. IDK if you do it already, but as your drawing stuff up you should always dimension it using sketch->smart dimension and then clicking on lines you want to dimension...play around with it and you will learn tricks to speed up and not over-define....it is intuitive if you have any drafting experience. Its good practice for viewing/fully dimensioning your sketches, and also allows for extremely fast changing of dimensions once the sketch is complete.

I didnt even think about mentioning that stuff be4, sorry probably would have helped. Oh well, if you have any questions feel free to shoot me a pm, I'll help any way I can. Using the help file can provide some rapid help that is written up pretty good too. I think there might some be some youtube tutorial videos also. :shooting:

Ive only heard one or two opinions expanding onto hopper location?!?! I thought at least a few people would be interested in a q-loader or warp setups?!?!?! Everyone think blimp hoppers to the pinnacle of innovation? I hope not. :) How about tank angle/location? anyone have a setup they prefer over the standard? Ive only used a 68ci and 22ci tanks, the 22ci had me thinking of some crazy tank positions, but the 68 just seems too big to move anywhere else. anyone know where I can get dimensions for a 45/45? I have one alternate tank position that just might work with a slightly smaller tank than a 68ci.

Oh and anyone know where to get dimensions of a warp feed(preferably internals too)? I thought ZDS had something, but I guess not. And another question to anyone who might know....Halos have a pressurized feed right, how high of a ball stack can they push? I'm going to have to try it, but my halos are both destoryed, waiting for a powerlyte shell to cannibalize the 2 into.

Miltonyz

10-08-2008, 07:57 AM

I'm not an engineer so maybe my idea are too simplistic but why do we need a secondary regulator anymore. Why not have the full 450 or 850 from the tank reg run straight into the gun? Let it fill a dump chamber of some sort and then simply control velocity through a valve open time value. Is the technology just not there the give us precise enough valve timing, or is the pressure to high for a solenoid practical for paintball.

Sundown

10-08-2008, 10:05 AM

Ive only heard one or two opinions expanding onto hopper location?!?! I thought at least a few people would be interested in a q-loader or warp setups?!?!?!

Well I might be old game.. but I have my hopper directly on top of my gun :)
I have never tried warp feed, but it looks a little bulky to me.
As for Q-loader, never tried as the feedback I got was not super. Altough it looks nice and all.
I used to play with a good old Tippmann and loved the fact that the feedneck was ''offset'' But now I am kinda used to a vertical feedneck with my mag.

How about tank angle/location? anyone have a setup they prefer over the standard? Ive only used a 68ci and 22ci tanks, the 22ci had me thinking of some crazy tank positions, but the 68 just seems too big to move anywhere else.[/B] anyone know where I can get dimensions for a 45/45? I have one alternate tank position that just might work with a slightly smaller tank than a 68ci.

As for a tank setup, well I usually play with a remote as I play more woodsball and just stick the tank on my vest or pouch. But If I were to put a tank directly on my gun, I would like it to be in a tight fit. As I like my marker close to me when shooting.
For the size of the tank, well it depends on the efficiency of the marker. I kinda need a tank that can give me at least 500-600 shots... at least ;)
but when I play with remote, I don't really need to worry about size as I can strap on a 92/4500 easily.

Hilltop Customs

10-08-2008, 11:44 AM

Miltonyz: hehe IMO an engineer is no better at coming up with good ideas than anyone else, they are just good at putting ideas to paper and determining a way to make the ideas happen in real life. Eliminating the need for parts is one of the best ways to lower costs/increase reliability/decrease failure points. Removing that reg was one of my main goals, but I seemed to hit a brick wall everytime I started getting deeper into the design....I'll have to revisit it and try some new ideas. :cheers:

Sundown: I agree about the warp looking bulky. You should try one out sometime if you ever get the chance....its not as bad as it looks. One of the things I dont like about it though is placing the hopper beside the gun.....If I had a choice I would rather have everything directly in line, access to both sides of the grip for switching hands, and no exposed warp hose. I really like the idea of warp and q-loading, I just dont think anyone has pushed marker design to really include this feed.

If you dont mind me asking: how do you run your remote hose/setup? I played with a remote and stock for a few games....and after the hose got caught on brush/sticks and just generally got in the way I got rid of it and never really looked back. I also didnt like the pack idea, you say you put it in a vest? that sounds much more supportive, meaning less bouncing around of the tank, which is one of the reason I really hated putting a tank in a pack. :cheers:

Sundown

10-08-2008, 01:41 PM

Hilltop:

Well I have a Vest like this one (http://www.opsgear.com/PhotoGallery.asp?ProductCode=CN%2DMVP%2DPB).
It's a MOLLE vest so I can arrange all pouches how I like it and I just put the tank in the back. I must admit that I would need a better tank pouch (http://www.opsgear.com/PhotoGallery.asp?ProductCode=CN%2DOG%2DTANK%2DPOUC H) then that big dump pouch I have on my MOLLE vest.
But for now my big dump pouch works fine.

I have a remote cover for my remote that I got from a guy from the A5OG site.
I never had any problems with it and never got caught or twisted around or anything.
I also have an CP On/off ASA and a Pro-disconnect to connect the remote to the marker and I am able to just take the remote off my marker without turning off my tank and firing all the air out of my remote.
the Pro-disconnect is also something I got from a guy on the A5OG site. These things don't have any o-rings like the ''slide checks''. So no broken o-rings all the time. and no problems :)

I must admit I never really tried a tank on my marker as I always dressed up like a G.I. Joe to play paintball ;) I also use a 92/4500 tank.. so it might be to big to put on my marker.. haha Even my 68/4500 is a little big IMO. So I would need to buy myself a 45/45.

But I really want to try a more relaxing and lighter setup with a tank on my marker and a small pouch to put my pods. I also never played with my pods on my back..... like I said I dress up like a G.I. Joe... :rofl:

(edit) I also do not play with a stock as I dont really like it.

As for the Warp feed.. I would love to try one out, but like you said = I don't like the hopper and big warp feed on the side of my marker.. I would find it in my way.

WARPED1

10-09-2008, 12:45 AM

In a marker, I want fast speeds. No sear tripped markers, easy barrel threads(like 'cocker), easily adjustable(regs, velocity)
High ROF, easily upgradeable. Basically a Shocker.

malJohann

10-09-2008, 06:45 AM

Stumbled upon this thread by accident, because I'm interested in buying a Tac-One and got to this forum. I registered here before specifically to make an OTP on Muzikman's FN303. By the way, I'm from South-Africa and have been playing recball since the mid-90's. Only bought my own equipment early this year, but identified lots of areas for improvement early on.

Anyway, like several guys on this thread, I'm also busy with my own design. I've had no show stoppers so far in terms of design, but holding a day job, working on my own project after hours and keeping the wife happy all the while takes time and some fancy footwork.

The design brief I set myself was basically to build a marker that's mechanical (but designed to easily accept aftermarket electronic kits), has select-fire modes (semi, burst and auto) and high BPS capability, is reliable, durable, compact, modular, configurable (in terms of overall shape, ergonomics and balance), has one or more rails (dovetail or picatinny) whether someone playing speedball or woodsball is going to use it, and has an integrated hopper system (much like the one on the ATS markers) that can be mounted either on top or like a magazine.

Above all innovation is top priority for me, so it works on a completely new mechanism. I even considered making tolerances on the internals precise enough to eliminate o-rings, but decided early on that friction, reliability and manufacturing costs would likely be a problem.

snoopay700

10-09-2008, 12:13 PM

crap didnt see this, yeah mates will really help. :) Once you get everything mated up you can do interference detection(under evaluate tab in sworks 2008, just search in the help for it if you cant find it) It will tell you if you have any conflicting dimensions. IDK if you do it already, but as your drawing stuff up you should always dimension it using sketch->smart dimension and then clicking on lines you want to dimension...play around with it and you will learn tricks to speed up and not over-define....it is intuitive if you have any drafting experience. Its good practice for viewing/fully dimensioning your sketches, and also allows for extremely fast changing of dimensions once the sketch is complete.

I didnt even think about mentioning that stuff be4, sorry probably would have helped. Oh well, if you have any questions feel free to shoot me a pm, I'll help any way I can. Using the help file can provide some rapid help that is written up pretty good too. I think there might some be some youtube tutorial videos also. :shooting:

Ive only heard one or two opinions expanding onto hopper location?!?! I thought at least a few people would be interested in a q-loader or warp setups?!?!?! Everyone think blimp hoppers to the pinnacle of innovation? I hope not. :) How about tank angle/location? anyone have a setup they prefer over the standard? Ive only used a 68ci and 22ci tanks, the 22ci had me thinking of some crazy tank positions, but the 68 just seems too big to move anywhere else. anyone know where I can get dimensions for a 45/45? I have one alternate tank position that just might work with a slightly smaller tank than a 68ci.

Oh and anyone know where to get dimensions of a warp feed(preferably internals too)? I thought ZDS had something, but I guess not. And another question to anyone who might know....Halos have a pressurized feed right, how high of a ball stack can they push? I'm going to have to try it, but my halos are both destoryed, waiting for a powerlyte shell to cannibalize the 2 into.
Yeah i smart dimension everything, and thanks to my class i have a lot more experience with solidworks, hopefully i can make my marker sexier after my midterms tomorrow. I get to study and go to bed early tonight so i can try to uninfect my lymphs in my neck, hoorah.

Oh, and actually i came up with a new design for a bolt less paintball gun IN MY SLEEP last night, it was crazy, like i was talking to my friends in my dream and they mentioned what they wanted in a marker, and then i thought it up, it was pretty durn insane. There are problems with it, but i don't see why it wouldn't work.

Hilltop Customs

10-09-2008, 12:31 PM

Yeah i smart dimension everything, and thanks to my class i have a lot more experience with solidworks, hopefully i can make my marker sexier after my midterms tomorrow. I get to study and go to bed early tonight so i can try to uninfect my lymphs in my neck, hoorah.

Oh, and actually i came up with a new design for a bolt less paintball gun IN MY SLEEP last night, it was crazy, like i was talking to my friends in my dream and they mentioned what they wanted in a marker, and then i thought it up, it was pretty durn insane. There are problems with it, but i don't see why it wouldn't work.

I always have ideas pop in my head as I'm laying in bed trying to get to sleep....it kills me because I know I will forget if I dont write it down, but I dont want to get up and wake myself up even more to write it down. Never had one in my sleep, but then again I cant remember my dreams unless I wake up extremely abruptly.

bolt less, like a trap door feed or something?

snoopay700

10-09-2008, 12:46 PM

I always have ideas pop in my head as I'm laying in bed trying to get to sleep....it kills me because I know I will forget if I dont write it down, but I dont want to get up and wake myself up even more to write it down. Never had one in my sleep, but then again I cant remember my dreams unless I wake up extremely abruptly.

bolt less, like a trap door feed or something?
Sort of like that, i dunno, it's something i've always wanted to do but could never find a good way to do it, until now i think.

WARPED1

10-09-2008, 01:15 PM