Just bought a new RT from Airgun - problems already

[John Dresser]

I just picked up a new RT Pro. It shot fine for about 50 to 100 shots at the field but it was dropping off noticeably. My tank puts out close to 900 psi so I am more than a little surprised. Any ideas how to fix that?

[maniacmechanic]

check your chrono first

[Spider-TW]

Got Oil?

Got Air? If you are trying to shoot around 10bps or better, the mag will challenge the bottle reg at around 1000 psi. A good reg will keep up down to 600 or 700, but your rate will be dropping down to around 1 shot a second at some point between there and 500 psi. Those are just guidelines, but you'll feel that curve somewhere on your bottle.

Some oils have done that (300 rounds and fail) to me. Extreme rage was too clean and would shoot off after a few hundred rounds, leaving the level 10 orings squeaky clean.

[John Dresser]

Chrono was 270's. I would have thought they'd oil it there, but I just re-oiled it.

Well, more problems already.

I just aired it up again and now the trigger doesn't even actuate. The trigger pin comes forward and pushes the trigger itself forward, but when I pull the trigger nothing happens.

[secretweaponevan]

Sounds like your velocity screw backed out.

Is your tank screwed in all the way?

[michbich]

If the velocity was set. Your take is too low.

The way i see it: You have enough pressure to push the on-off pin, but the spring strenght is too strong compared to the air pushing on the bolt.

If you remove the valve, try sliding the bolt. Does it have resistance while moving it? If you have to apply force to make it move, the carrier is too small and should be changed.

[Spider-TW]

If you ran it dry, you will need to put a drop of oil on the stem of the bolt, a drop on the on/off and a couple drops in the asa.

They don't come with much oil on them, at least not enough to break them in.

[John Dresser]

There's no way the velocity screw on the back of the reg backed out in just 100 shots. Yes, the tank is screwed in all the way.

The tank is 900 psi and has a 3k+ fill. I don't think anything is low. What pressure do these typically run at?

The bolt definitely has more resistance sliding up and down the power tube than the old school foamie bolts I am used to. I can feel it catch in two different spots. Are you suggesting going to a larger carrier? This is what I was hoping AGD wold do for me when they "tuned" it.

[MANN]

sometimes an asa will not fully open the tank valve. You might want to try to put a pressure guage in line with your valve or try another asa/tank.

[John Dresser]

I currently have a gauge inline. Remember, this same tank worked earlier today. Now it does nothing.

BTW - I also picked up a level 10 bolt for my old RT. How many carriers should have come with it? The directions say to try the double groove one first but I didn't get that one.

[MANN]

how many carriers did you get.

[MANN]

I currently have a gauge inline. Remember, this same tank worked earlier today. Now it does nothing.


Then it is something that has changed. check:
1 tank screwd in all the way/ double check pressure
2 turn up velocity
3 re chrono and report back

[BigEvil]

I currently have a gauge inline. Remember, this same tank worked earlier today. Now it does nothing.

BTW - I also picked up a level 10 bolt for my old RT. How many carriers should have come with it? The directions say to try the double groove one first but I didn't get that one.


Those are old directions. They used to include a bunch of oversized carries that no one ever used. So they arent included anymore.

Start off with the smallest carrier (no slash, no dot - 'blank'). If it sticks go up to the one-dot.

If by 'old' RT you mean the classic RT with the banjo bolt, be prepared to replace the reg piston. Many times when you upgrade to the lvl 10 on them the pistons vent out of the back due to the additional pressure.

[John Dresser]

No luck with turning the reg up on the RT Pro. Still nothing is happening. I tried the tank on my old RT and it cycles just fine.

What happens when it "sticks?" Is that the problem I am describing?

Any such things as current directions? I got 4 carriers.

Yeah, it's the first RT ever made so it is classic as it gets. Serial # 0001.

[MANN]

Yeah, it's the first RT ever made so it is classic as it gets. Serial # 0001.

WOW. if you ever want to get rid of that I would love to take it off your hands.

The stick you are refering to is bolt stick. Usually caused by your detents. Try unscrewing them to check for rubbing/wear.

[John Dresser]

Sorry, no plans to get rid of the old RT. I actually played NPPL events with it for years, long after electronic guns took over. I finally caved in 2001 and switched to an electro due to sponsorship so the RT has just been in the basement. I started playing with it again this year since I'm no longer a sponsored player for the first time in a decade.

Back in the day, bolt stick was very similar to the problem I am describing. You pull the trigger and nothing happens. I just put the level 10 kit in my RT and the exact same thing just happened. This has to be pretty common, what am I missing?

[MANN]

I would go up a size on the lvl X carrier. See if that helps/hurts

[John Dresser]

It had the dot carrier and 3 shims along with the shortest spring.

I tried each of the three springs with each of the 4 carriers and had the same result with all of them. The only difference was sometimes the gun leaked and a couple times it fired as I was airing it up. It never fired once the tank was on.

[Pullman]

Dump the shims and put it back together,maybe go up to the next size carrier as well, but pull the o ring you have in there now and move it into the next carrier. I know it seems silly, but give it a shot. Those shims cause more problems. The LX is super frustrating until it gets broken in. Once it is you can leave it forever, but the the break in process is a PITA :(

[Coralis]

This may help Level 10 instal vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0mvr30jKhw)

[secretweaponevan]

There might be a problem with your ASA.

Some guy on here had a heck of a time troubleshooting till he realized that earlier in the day his on/off ASA broke and would let only very little air through very very slowly.

Other than that:
Quick tuning instructions:

Remove all LVL 10 shims.
Pick 1 carrier o-ring and stick with it.
Use oil.
Use #2 carrier (2 lines, no dots) or largest that came with your kit.
Shoot 1000 shots to break in o-ring.
Move broken-in o-ring to largest carrier that doesn't leak.
Use red spring for 285 fps. Use longer spring for higher velocity or to be more gentle (fragile paint), shorter spring for lower velocity or to be less gentle (thicker shell).
If bolt sticks after encountering a jam, add a shim.

[John Dresser]

I don't even have that carrier. The largest one they sent me has a line and a dot. I'll try it with no shims.

Will a new o-ring shut the gun down completely like this?

Shooting 1000 shots is difficult when I can't shoot any shots.

[chafnerjr]

My suggestion... open the valve and check for loose teflon in the valve reg. Happened to my last project. I'd get bolt stick at higher ROF, and then shootdown.... variance between 280 and 240. The teflon wasn't blocking the reg completely, but in this case it is possible. Hey it new right? It could happen and nothing else is getting you anywhere. Get that valve apart and check it. It wouldn't be a carrier or shim thing if it worked at first and then stopped... I've got money on teflon lodged in something.

[Spider-TW]

I don't even have that carrier. The largest one they sent me has a line and a dot. I'll try it with no shims.

Will a new o-ring shut the gun down completely like this?

Shooting 1000 shots is difficult when I can't shoot any shots.
A good gauge of carrier size is to use the one that will just suspend the weight of the bolt when you hang it down over your hand. If the bolt falls off, it's probably too loose, so you put on a tighter carrier until it holds. With a little oil on the end of the stem, slide it back and forth and feel the grip each time you try a different carrier. When you get the one that works you will know what it feels like in the first place.

I have had setups that would fall off very easily that still sealed, but they only lasted about another case or so until they started leaking slowly. The markers shot real well with the loose orings, but all of these were well worn-in orings. With a new one you should let it be a little tight ("hang-able") so that when the inside wears in, it will still seal.

Is your trigger returning even though the marker doesn't shoot?

[John Dresser]

Is your trigger returning even though the marker doesn't shoot?

Yes, the trigger returns even though it doesn't shoot. Thanks for the advice on how to pick the right carrier, but since I tried all 12 variations (ever carrier with every spring) and never got it to shoot, I don't think the problem is the carrier.


My suggestion... open the valve and check for loose teflon in the valve reg. It wouldn't be a carrier or shim thing if it worked at first and then stopped... I've got money on teflon lodged in something.

That's exactly what I thought it had to be at first! I unscrewed the valve but I didn't see any though. Any ideas on where it could be lodged? In the old mags it would get caught in the horizontal spring with the grenade pin.

[John Dresser]

One of the guys on PbN figured it out.

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?p=52094174#post52094174


Hmmm, you've swapped around carriers and you're still getting bolt stick. The only other thing I can think of is making sure your field strip screw and front frame screw are tightened down equally. If one is aped and the other is looser, it will cause bolt stick.

[maniacmechanic]

One of the guys on PbN figured it out.

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?p=52094174#post52094174

overcomplicating a simple problem
Warbeak hangs here a lot too , congrats Warbeak your right again

[John Dresser]

For sure. I knew it had to be something simple when the gun went from being fine to not working at all so quickly. I also knew it had to be common when my RT had exactly the same issue when I first threw in the level 10.

[John Dresser]

Two problems still.

The new Rt Pro still has massive drop off. I hope it is my tank. It is putting out 900 psi but the flow might still be poor.

The second problem is that the classic RT still has the same problem we cured in the Rt Pro by loosening the front frame screw and tightening the back screw. The RT Pro doesn't fire at all. The trigger returns but the gun does not shoot at all.

[secretweaponevan]

The second problem is that the classic RT still has the same problem we cured in the Rt Pro by loosening the front frame screw and tightening the back screw. The RT Pro doesn't fire at all. The trigger returns but the gun does not shoot at all.

Turn up your velocity and/or don't use an LP tank.

[John Dresser]

Turn up your velocity and/or don't use an LP tank.

My velocity is already at 300 and since my tank is putting out 900, it wouldn't be considered low pressure.

[secretweaponevan]

My velocity is already at 300 and since my tank is putting out 900, it wouldn't be considered low pressure.

If it isn't firing, how can you be sure that it is firing at 300 fps?

If the trigger is pressurized but it won't fire, it is either:
too low input pressure
too low a velocity setting to overcome bolt spring force
bolt is stuck in powertube (don't superglue foamie whiile bolt is in valve :eek: )
not enough oil
a malfunctioning on/off (if it won't allow gas to the powertube it would provide symptoms you are describing)
a too short/long of a trigger rod adjustment

First see if gas is getting to bolt by:
Unload and Degas marker
Remove bolt and bolt spring
Hold trigger
Gas up
Briefly let go of trigger
Pull trigger

If marker vented down barrel while trigger was released and then stopped while trigger was pulled your on/off is fine. If not, your problem is in your on/off.

Let us know.

[russc]

Are you using a pure energy tank?

[Shane-O-Mac]

Best thing I have been able to find out, without messing with the gun personally is to crank up the velocity,until the piston starts venting and then back it off just till it stops. Early RT's had an issue with the reg piston not having the piston bleed off set high enough. It was suggested to me that you need to crank up the RT's adjuster 3 full turns from when it worked without Lvl 10. As the Lvl10 breaks in and you fine tune it, the pressure will be a bit lower. You coming out for the pump event on the 25th-26th?

[John Dresser]

Best thing I have been able to find out, without messing with the gun personally is to crank up the velocity,until the piston starts venting and then back it off just till it stops. Early RT's had an issue with the reg piston not having the piston bleed off set high enough. It was suggested to me that you need to crank up the RT's adjuster 3 full turns from when it worked without Lvl 10. As the Lvl10 breaks in and you fine tune it, the pressure will be a bit lower. You coming out for the pump event on the 25th-26th?

I turned the classic RT up until it bled pretty bad but the trigger still didn't do anything. If it is this month, no - I'll be down at World Cup.



Are you using a pure energy tank?

Yes. One of the tanks I tested was a PE.



If it isn't firing, how can you be sure that it is firing at 300 fps?

"It shot fine for about 50 to 100 shots at the field but it was dropping off noticeably" - from the first post.

Good guesses on the bolt, but it was actually a really tight front screw and a moderately tight field strip screw.

[Coralis]

Sometime the problem you are describing can be caused by your ASA on/off depressing your bottle pin valve too much or not enough so that the airflow from your bottle is insufficient to keep up with your gun causing shoot down.

[Shane-O-Mac]

Well we will have to try and raise the bleed off pressure of the piston on the classic RT. Gunga mentioned that many early ones had to be reset. Lemme see if I can track down a different piston or how to go about turning up the bleed off setting.

[John Dresser]

Well we will have to try and raise the bleed off pressure of the piston on the classic RT. Gunga mentioned that many early ones had to be reset. Lemme see if I can track down a different piston or how to go about turning up the bleed off setting.

Thanks!



Sometime the problem you are describing can be caused by your ASA on/off depressing your bottle pin valve too much or not enough so that the airflow from your bottle is insufficient to keep up with your gun causing shoot down.

Yup, you nailed it. The RT Pro now works. The drop off wasn't the tank but the asa itself which is a little odd since it was one AGD provided. Thanks to everyone that helped, especially the people who suggested that. :)

[secretweaponevan]

Yup, you nailed it. The RT Pro now works. The drop off wasn't the tank but the asa itself which is a little odd since it was one AGD provided. Thanks to everyone that helped, especially the people who suggested that. :)

I pointed this out on post #21. Could have saved yourself and the rest of us some time.


There might be a problem with your ASA.

Some guy on here had a heck of a time troubleshooting till he realized that earlier in the day his on/off ASA broke and would let only very little air through very very slowly.

[Shane-O-Mac]

I pointed this out on post #21. Could have saved yourself and the rest of us some time.

Way to be a smart arse.................................. :rolleyes:

[secretweaponevan]

Way to be a smart arse.................................. :rolleyes:

Yeah sorry, the PbNation.com tag brings it out in me, especially when I spend my time diagnosing a problem and am ignored. :cry: