"NEWS" Nelson Paint to continue producing oil based paints!

[Chronobreak]

"NEWS"

Nelson Paint manufacturer has decided that they will not be switching to a water soluable paint fill or PEG(PolyEthalyeneGlycol)

They had planned to switch due to environmental and staining issues as well as iissuing a heavy price increase that may potentialy hurt sales.

They have aquired a distributorship of Bunker scrub and feel it is no longer necesary to switch to an environemtaly friendly fill, since they are also willing to sell you a product that will clean it up.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now my thoughts.

Paint manufacturers have gotten away with keeping the public uninformed about what is actualy in their products for some time now.

this is perhaps the biggest slap in the face to both players and fields i have seen yet.

This is basicly nelson justifying the sale of uninvironmentaly friendly oil product by selling you a cleaning agent as well.

This is by far the minimim of compliance based action they could have taken.

Im curious as to what the rest of you think.

[Zone Drifter]

I think it's b.s. to be honest. A water soluble paint is what should be the standard in my opinion.

[StygShore]

i have been shooting Nelson off and on all summer. I have not experienced any staining issues or problems with it like I had in previous years.

I know they changed their current formula up from last Fall when they had the stuff come out that burned vegetation and trashed everything - was not aware they still used oil base in their product though.


I was looking to use Nelson for next year as well, but not if it is going to trash the field.

Can you recommend a decent quality PEG paint on the market?

Thanks

Styg

[sandfreestyle]

More trash on the field means more trash that I have to play in and get all over my stuff that I paid good money for. Sorry, but I don't treat my stuff like trash.

I agree. I think water based paint should be a standard.

[Elemental]

Gah! I hate oil-based paint. It's so hard to get all of that oil off your lens.

[snoopay700]

That's garbage right there, it sucks and i won't be buying their paint as a result. I've actually been testing al my paint to ensure it's PEG or water soluble paint.

[Chronobreak]

i have been shooting Nelson off and on all summer. I have not experienced any staining issues or problems with it like I had in previous years.

I know they changed their current formula up from last Fall when they had the stuff come out that burned vegetation and trashed everything - was not aware they still used oil base in their product though.


I was looking to use Nelson for next year as well, but not if it is going to trash the field.

Can you recommend a decent quality PEG paint on the market?

Thanks

Styg

sure can

the new JT paints are all PEG based fills, except the lowest brand of whitebox they offer

I believe all of DXS's paints are also peg/water soluable as well as everything that KEE offers to my knowledge.

the DO NOT ALLOW list is basicly as follows but is not limited to

Stryker
Monster ball
Nelson paints
low end jt/be paints such as tactical(recon is ok)

visual impact is water soluable however it does have a heavy staining agent or permanent dye in it so i cant reccomend that.

styg, i wish i could say exactly what was in nelsons paints, but just like cigarettes they do not for some reason ahve to list what is in it or atleast the dominant components.

to the best of my knowledge nelson uses a hybrid type fill, partly vegetable/canola oil , possibly starch and other fillers.


and to anyone who is unsure of how to test for oil based paint heres a link for ya.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YPWPPvK010

--just found one testing nelson, and that was their thinnest fill i believe, they got one that looks worse than monsterball in water :eek:

[Smoothice]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YPWPPvK010



:rofl:

Wow that kid was going through puberty on tape.

[drg]

I think this crusade is overblown alarmism.

[punkncat]

We aren't exactly talking about oil paints like the old clean up with terpentine type back in the day. We are talking about vegetable oil based paints. They have a tendency to leave a residue behind, even after being washed.
Now I don't know about y'all, but I tend to play paintball in clothing that either I don't mind getting dirty, or that was purpose built and bought to play paintball in. Having a bit of stain on them, either from oil residue, or what is more common around here from good 'ole Georgia clay from dirt is not an issue to me at all. After all I do go to the field to play, not to stand around and have an issue with how sharp and clean I look. I could see where that is an issue for some who apparently come to the field to talk and look good..... ;)

The "environmental" impact from paint residue could be argued many different ways. I personally do not really have a stand for or against it one way or the other.

[Lohman446]

It will likely be the foothold to get government oversight.

As long as you are playing on a commercial field no big deal, beyond the obvious.

What about those who play "outlaw", some on state owned lands

[Chronobreak]

The "environmental" impact from paint residue could be argued many different ways. I personally do not really have a stand for or against it one way or the other.


It will likely be the foothold to get government oversight.

As long as you are playing on a commercial field no big deal, beyond the obvious.

What about those who play "outlaw", some on state owned lands

now where getting somewhere

sure i got no qualms with someone wanting a cheap case to shoot up their friends somewhere and dont mind the staining issue, the paint isnt a big issue there

few minor notes however, what about those hooligans that shoot up houses, or street signs, and those black permanet stains stick around(those are from oil paints)

but a field that runs any kinds of numbers has to make a decision, is this worth the $ these kids are spending to let them use it/have the cleanup issues and a possibly less clean facility, and ALOT less folliage(plantlife)

alot of fields allow this stuff and many other brands they are unware of stain or may have problems, and ide say the paint manufacturers(most) have been overly deceptive possibly to the point of consumer fraud

[C_losjoker]

I can agree with lots of the views on here. Punkcat, has some good points if your cloths stain so what. you are there to play and get dirty, if you dont want your ruin your clothes wear something your going to throw out or go take up swewing. but i also do take care of my stuff and want it to last as long as possible, if it wears or tears its one thing. but if it gets destroyed or stinks before it's suppose to because of the paint, thats different.

but the thing is if all these oil paints are killing the soil and plants on the outdoor fields. it really is going to make it harder and worse for all of us that play. think about it, if nothing is growing or able to grow even during the rainy season. the ground is going to be packed hard as concrete, plants keep the soil loose and soft. makes it a lot easier and better for us who dive, slide or for the rest of us that also trip over our own two feet.

I have also been to one field that while I was playing I kept leaning up against some of obstacles. geez, I kid you not i swear there must have been at least a couple inches of paint on every bunker. that had just caked over and some looked it was growing mold, maybe even coming to life. I had mentioned this to one of the guys working the field and he said yeah its ugly really bad. He said they go out there from time to time to wash them down, but the stuff just will not come off. I am not the type to pay attention and care about my clothes, hell i have played mud football before in brand new jeans and shoes because i wanted to play and that was all i was wearing. but leaning against those bunkers with all that gunk and mold, it was nasty.

I would even support fields that went with house paint only, if they used water based paints. Just my few cents worth and what i seen out there so far.

[3DSteve]

this also becomes an issue when you pay thousands of dollars for an airball field and would like to keep it playable for as long as possible. Paint residue and build up not only looks bad on the field, it makes patching bunkers a nightmare.

[russc]

I think this crusade is overblown alarmism.

Give me an hour to throw a video up and I'll show you what Nelson can do to a field.

[MoeMag]

Give me an hour to throw a video up and I'll show you what Nelson can do to a field.

I played a big senario game where the F.P.O. was nelson... yeah. It made a mess.

IDK. im sorry. enviromental impact of veggie oil?

seriously... Manbearpig has a paintball gun now huh?

[Chronobreak]

anyone who thinks this is an over reaction has not been to

A a field that allows this type of paint

B a field that goesthru any decent volume of paint.

it really does turn into a marshmellow like substance and does not degrade

infact anyone who does not believe me provide me an address and IL SHIP YOU SOME from over 4 months ago!

[C_losjoker]

anyone who thinks this is an over reaction has not been to

A a field that allows this type of paint

B a field that goesthru any decent volume of paint.

it really does turn into a marshmellow like substance and does not degrade

infact anyone who does not believe me provide me an address and IL SHIP YOU SOME from over 4 months ago!


yep the field i went to told me that some of the paint on their bunkers was from last year. now that is sick that it stayed around through the rainy season, and we had a good one that year, coming down hard and often. plus even in the full sun every day, it did not break down or drip off. I for one will start looking around for more earth friendly paint, hope my local stores around here will be have them.

[russc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfokj5z16nE

Here's a short tour of my home field, which uses nelson exclusively.

Has anyone confirmed that Nelson is in fact continuing to use the same formula?

[Smoothice]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfokj5z16nE

Here's a short tour of my home field, which uses nelson exclusively.

Has anyone confirmed that Nelson is in fact continuing to use the same formula?

"Yay. Black mold. Its cute"

:rofl: O.K that video right there made me care about what kind of paint I use.

:hail:

[Lohman446]

I would question using it on a commercial field. Even if it is acceptable now.

Think of the clean-up issues involved with people who buy old gas stations with old in ground tanks for one example of long term negative effects, not just environmentally but on value. There are simply too many viable alternatives in my opinion to take the risks associated with using something you know has more of a negative impact than another readily available substitute. If price is the only reason you have for defense (not quality, flight, marking, etc), which it seems it is, you are treading on dangerous grounds that other industries have shown us the risks of over and over again.

[Chronobreak]

nelson according to the sales lady has NOT reformulated

the were set to this month along with a price increase.

thats why i made this post.

we have that same "black mold" type buildup on alot of our buildings as well.

wether nelson reformualtes or not we are no longer going to be allowing their paint at our field.

[michbich]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfokj5z16nE

Here's a short tour of my home field, which uses nelson exclusively.

Has anyone confirmed that Nelson is in fact continuing to use the same formula?
Wow, that's just nasty. Although i don't mind getting dirty, you would not see me at a feild of that condition.

[maniacmechanic]

i just watched the vid ; I guess it would still be good for marking trees ,, IF you could get by the environmentalist's

[Chronobreak]

Wow, that's just nasty. Although i don't mind getting dirty, you would not see me at a feild of that condition.

thats the point of this thread

alarmism, maybe to an extent..but when you may think a place has a dirty facility due to negligence it may simply be beyond their control.

i cant tell you how much stuff we had to powerwash, use cleaners on, replace and it still doesnt look as good as it did before.

hopefully other fields and players catch on before its too late.

let me also throw another variable in here.

what if its somehow OK for nelson to sell this paint, but the EPA shuts your field down due to the environmental hazard your field has become?

[drg]

anyone who thinks this is an over reaction has not been to

A a field that allows this type of paint

B a field that goesthru any decent volume of paint.

it really does turn into a marshmellow like substance and does not degrade

infact anyone who does not believe me provide me an address and IL SHIP YOU SOME from over 4 months ago!

More proof is needed, as has always been the case since the start of this crusade. Anecdotal evidence is cute but ultimately worthless. The fields I play at allow Nelson, and I don't really see a huge issue with it damaging or killing the field. I do see the white buildup on houses and bunkers, but is that really only Nelson? I have not known any Nelson paints to leave the "white residue" (likely titanium dioxide) on my gear the way some others do, and I see the same white residue on structures at fields that use FPO RP paints. Nel-splat is about the thinnest, most easily washed paint I have ever seen.

The video above is a perfect example of a worthless anecdotal example. It's after a month of no rain ... is it really expected that a field can self-clean without water? I have never known a field to self-clean without rain. And it's not like anything would grow in that muck near the bunkers regardless of what paint it was.

As for the mold, maybe it might be a good idea to consider taking the tops off the houses or actively wash mold-prone areas. And doesn't the presence of mold indicate biodegradability?

I'm not saying it's not an issue, just that the reports of it have never really clearly proven the problem. Compare it to other paints, do washability tests, test it on vegetation, try to get mold from other paints. Contact the EPA about possible concerns and try to find out what the formula actually is. It's all just speculation and stories at this point.

[Chronobreak]

More proof is needed, as has always been the case since the start of this crusade. Anecdotal evidence is cute but ultimately worthless. The fields I play at allow Nelson, and I don't really see a huge issue with it damaging or killing the field. I do see the white buildup on houses and bunkers, but is that really only Nelson? I have not known any Nelson paints to leave the "white residue" (likely titanium dioxide) on my gear the way some others do, and I see the same white residue at fields that use FPO RP paints.

The video above is a perfect example of a worthless anecdotal example. It's after a month of no rain ... is it really expected that a field can self-clean without water? I have never known a field to self-clean without rain. And it's not like anything would grow in that muck near the bunkers regardless of what paint it was.

As for the mold, maybe it might be a good idea to consider taking the tops off the houses or actively wash mold-prone areas. And doesn't the presence of mold indicate biodegradability?

I'm not saying it's not an issue, just that the reports of it have never really shown the problem. Compare it to other paints, do washability tests, test it on vegetation, try to get mold from other paints. Contact the EPA about possible concerns and try to find out what the formula actually is. It's all just speculation and stories at this point.

so after 11 + years of operating a facility and switching to nelson for field paint, actively reffing those times, seeing the areas shot and constantly monitoring them is "anecdotal evidence"

the water mixing test is also the same "anecdotal evidence"

the paint we are using now, and waht we allow seems to be encouraging growth, but i tell you what, im gonna go buy some plants, put some of this rancid oil paint in one and peg in the other, we will see then.

or is that still not evidence enough.

as i said contacting the EPA may get the manufacturer in hot water but could also get our field potentialy shut down)

speculation, iplease dont take me as being rude but you are very naive as im not the only one posting evidence here.

dont get me wrong nelson is NOT the only manufacturer doing this, however they are one of the mroe deceptive manufacturers.

and we dont and ahve not allowed an oil/staining paint as we test it all on the spot.

so i ask, what do i need to do to prove this?


--drg waht field do you play at, ide like to contact the owner/manager and ask them persoanly what their feelings are.

[drg]

so after 11 + years of operating a facility and switching to nelson for field paint, actively reffing those times, seeing the areas shot and constantly monitoring them is "anecdotal evidence"

the water mixing test is also the same "anecdotal evidence"

the paint we are using now, and waht we allow seems to be encouraging growth, but i tell you what, im gonna go buy some plants, put some of this rancid oil paint in one and peg in the other, we will see then.

or is that still not evidence enough.

as i said contacting the EPA may get the manufacturer in hot water but could also get our field potentialy shut down)

speculation, iplease dont take me as being rude but you are very naive as im not the only one posting evidence here.

dont get me wrong nelson is NOT the only manufacturer doing this, however they are one of the mroe deceptive manufacturers.

and we dont and ahve not allowed an oil/staining paint as we test it all on the spot.

so i ask, what do i need to do to prove this?

--drg waht field do you play at, ide like to contact the owner/manager and ask them persoanly what their feelings are.

Any of that testing would be more than we have now. How about checking the EPA regulations regarding vegetable oil? I have looked, and I have yet to find a regulation that you would need to worry about.

The fact that 2 or 3 people have said something in this thread proves nothing and is ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE. There are thousands of fields and hundreds of thousands to millions of players out there.

[Chronobreak]

perhaps there was never a need for or is a regulation for what i would consider not much more than just dumping these raw materials directly into the environment?

this is more of a Field facility referance for me as to the crusading, i am not out "trying to save the environment per say"

as to let paintball players be aware of things they are not.

as others have said sure paintball equipment is made for this stuff and who cares about a stain on the gun?

well, few things

that stain may hurt resale greatly on hard/soft goods.

personal gear aside, what about paint that is so staining that it will tint a lense with that color once shot?

thats a rental mask essentialy ruined in one day/use, sure you can use it but that next persons gonna be upset or wonder why theyr lenses is funky and appears unwashed.

as well as the oil thick paint that sticks to the faceplate and cannot be removed without chemicals that may harm the integreity of the goggle itself?

same goes for the strap thats now ruined/stained and appears dirty

thats just goggles aside, throw in the same thing for markers, chest protectors, rental packs

you getting the picture yet?

but like i said people with their own gear may not care or playing in outlaw ball, but some expect more of their fields/facilities than sticky messes and coup on things.

sorry if i sound frustrated , this is one of those things you feel like people either dont get or dont care when they really should.

i searched the interent to also find your elusive facts

appears its common knoledge that these oils are used as insecticides...interesting fact right?

so that means is ok to be used on plants?perhaps not

all these instructions i see are for a diluted form to be mixed with a solvent.(likely a different form used in paint IE paint is less or non soluable in water)

also i dont see how this paint that cakes on elaves, likely covering the part that collects sunlight allowing the plant to live is plant friendly.

IE i like pancake syrup but if i were to be covered in it, that might not be so healthy for me if i were to be like that for a while.

""

> I have been using canola oil (in very diluted form, as per instructions)
> to kill the aphids on my roses for the last two years. It
> works very well; it suffocates them. Ask for it at your nursery.


This is also quite true. Oils work well as insecticides because oils are not soluble in water. When oil gets on an insect, it sticks really well, and clogs the insects' spiracles, which are tiny holes into the insect's body which allow air inside. This is how insects breathe. Oils will clog up the spiracles, suffocating insects. Needless to say, humans do not breathe in this way. Oils are often recommended as household "insecticides" precisely because they are not toxic to humans. Canola and rapeseed are cheap so they are frequently used in insecticides.

""

feel free to check on WIKI, EPA's Home website as well as many agriculture avenues

As per your request i will go buy some paint(several brands) and several plents and run a case study/experiment at your request.

[drg]

Well as I have said above, I personally have not found nelson to have washability problems, and that would be a key area to test. I have never seen a modern ball that would actually stain a lens.

You have not proven what oil is in the paint, so jumping to the conclusion that it is canola is a mistake right off the bat, and a use of an item as an insecticide may or may not have anything to do with its relative toxicity to humans or the environment. Oil is involved in the manufacture of all paintballs, regardless. You have not proven that the white residue is oil or related to the oil, versus the other agents in the paintball formula (thickeners, colorants, etc.)

Ultimately the claims are very, very broad and I am far from convinced a certain brand of paint is to blame and should be vilified for it. As a player I have been trying to glean some information from this crusade that I can act upon with confidence but I have never gotten it. Everything is just overbroad and anecdotal.

All this talk about the EPA and fields getting shut down smacks of hysteria and alarmism rather than well-defined reality, which is exactly what we don't need.

[punkrex]

I love nelson paint and veggie oil is just fine with me.

more about PEG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyethylene_glycol

[Chronobreak]

drg, where do you play, ide like to contact your local field/s if possible.

im not gonna argue anymore as your insistance that this is not a certain type of paint when i can compare fills/colors/useage times/as well as test such as water and degredation is an insult to not only my intelligence but others in this thread as well.

ide love to tell you exactlywhat is in nelsons paint, but i dont have the $ for a chemical analysis to be done, i can only provide visual and impirical data.

like i also said this whole entire thread is not aimed at nelson, but i used them to get the thread going as they are perhaps the most deceptive among manufacturers as to what is actualy in the paint.

heck, Evil is great paint but it stains....and you dont see me going on about it. whynot. well its a high end tournament and its made fairly clear its a permanent/fill.

as far as other fields having a problem, trust me its not just an isolated problem

so even if this isnt canola oil, or is olive oil, or corn oil or hybrid type fill, the mark it leaves is undeniable.


why is nelson and no other manufacturer selling a cleaning agent?

perhaps they feel guilty about something, or know the paint is hard to remove?

just food for thought

[Beemer]

pH of Fill Material—The pH of the fill used in the
paintball shall measure between 4.5 and 7.5 as measured using
a 10 % solution of the fill in distilled water. Measurements
shall be made using a properly calibrated pH meter.


Paintball Fill Compatibility With Polycarbonate—
When tested in accordance with Section 4, no more than one of
the three polycarbonate tensile bars exposed to the fill material
shall develop a visible crack that is greater than 6.5 mm (0.256
in.) in length.

True it is that all paint eats Polycarbonate


Environmental Safety—Paintballs shall not contain environmentally
hazardous substances as defined in CERCLA
Regulations 40CFR302.4; SARAToxic Chemical List Section
313; Clean Air Act, Section 112B; and RCRA Regulations
40FRR261.24 through 40CFR261.33.

U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, “Designation of Hazardous Substances List of Hazardous Substances and Reportable Quantities,” Comprehensive Environmental Response Compensation and Liabilities Act, Bureau of Federal Affairs, 40CFR302.4, April 4, 1985.

U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, “Superfund Amendment and Reauthorization Act,” Environmental Protection Agency Regulation, Bureau of Federal Affairs, Title III, 1986.

U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, “National Emission Standards for Air Pollutants List of Hazardous Air Pollutants,” Clean Air Act, Bureau of Federal Affairs, Section 112B, 1967.

U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, “Definition of Characteristic and Listed Hazardous Waste, Identification and Listing of Hazardous Waste,” Resource Conservation and Recovery Act, Bureau of Federal Affairs, 40CFR261, May 19,1980.


Just because you are paranoid doesnt mean they arent watching us. When in fact they are.
C.P.S.C., E.P.A. and others

[russc]

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/9743/mescpta3.png

There's a photo taken from the PbNation news thread about bunker scrub/Nelson paintballs.

Damned if I know what's in Nelson paint, drg. Maybe it's some sort of low viscosity wax. It looks like oil to me. Now, keep in mind that it is only certain brands of Nelson paint: Nelsplat, Affordaball, Hotspot and Precision. If you are only using higher end Nelson, you won't see these issues. EKG, Special Forces, Hemorrhage and Anarchy are fine from what I've seen.

I'll do my best to make a test of nelson's effects this week, if you can give me an indication of what you'd like to see I'll do my best to provide some hard evidence.

In the meantime, try not to dismiss the claims about Nelson without having visited a field that uses it as FPO. I regret not making a video of my AT-10 after taking it out of storage this week. I had used it at a scenario this summer where they sold Affordaballs and Nelsplats exclusively. I had left some broken Affordaball in the magazine, and over time it had hardened into a waxy, sticky substance that would not come off with soap and water. I had to scrape it off the inside of the mag with a screwdriver. The magazine release, which is a slide on the side of the magwell, was stuck fast because of a hit taken in the area that had sprayed underneath the pull tab and hardened like glue. I've had barrels that have required acetone to remove stuck material from the inside. I have pants that can't be washed. There is a layer of dirt mixed with the wax/oil from Nelson that sits on the fabric and can't be removed by washing them with detergent.

Something is wrong with the paint. The damage can be seen, plain and simple. You were right that simply pointing out that Nelson has more oil in a kool-aid test can lead to people jumping to conclusions. However, Nelson is different from other paintballs, and that test seems to provide a clue as to why.

[drg]

The only way a bunker can possibly accumulate that much residue on it is if it's never washed. I've seen bunkers that went unwashed gather residue like this, but it's not just low-end Nelson doing this (which is not a common paint in these parts).

I mean look at it, the bunker is covered all the way around ... that's simply not going to happen over a short period of time. Heck with low end Nelson you hardly get breaks on air bunkers at all.

I think WARPIG's Bunker Scrub article explains pretty well about the white pigment in paint, and it's not just Nelson that does it. It also illustrates a simulated cleaning.

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/misc/bunkerscrub/

In my experience higher end paints with thick fills leave the most residue, low-end Nelson is pretty thin paint that doesn't mark very well at all, let alone leave heavy white residue.

[russc]

Let's forget about the dyes for now. Yes, white Nelson paint stains, but I haven't seen a white paint that doesn't.

As for the bunker, I'd say that's a case of low end Nelson plus a dusty field plus summer heat. Trust me when I say that residue doesn't come off easily. You can take most of it off, but without some sort of solvent you aren't going to get it all off at the end of the day.

The bunker pictured below is cleaned after every use. You can see that the Nelson picks up dirt which helps it cling and form a gummy mess. In this tournament we used Procaps and borrowed the bunkers from a field that used Nelson. To clean the procaps we used squeegees and then threw some water on the bunkers. It washed right out. All the bunkers remained very sticky though, because of the Nelson residue. If you leave any Nelson residue, it will turn into gum and becomes impossible to remove.

In the case of the bunker I posted above, yes it has been neglected but keep in mind that if it were procaps, it would be possible to still clean it by leaving it in the rain or hosing it down. Nelson residue is waterproof and soap proof. The only way I've been able to take it off woodsball bunkers is by mechanical means, which isn't an option on air bunkers.

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/1753/nelsonbunkerca3.jpg

This residue looks almost identical to the stuff that ruins my paintball pants. I'll post more on those later.

Bunkerscrub looks promising, but I'm sure it isn't a cost effective way to clean an entire field. In Warpig's video review, Bill Mills talks about the streaks on bunkers being left over pigment. The problem with Nelson is not the pigment. In other paintballs, only the pigment is left to stain. With Nelson, most of the paintball remains in the form of oil or wax which given a day to dry, hardens into a gooey surface layer.

[drg]

Let's forget about the dyes for now. Yes, white Nelson paint stains, but I haven't seen a white paint that doesn't.

As for the bunker, I'd say that's a case of low end Nelson plus a dusty field plus summer heat. Trust me when I say that residue doesn't come off easily. You can take most of it off, but without some sort of solvent you aren't going to get it all off at the end of the day.

The bunker pictured below is cleaned after every use. You can see that the Nelson picks up dirt which helps it cling and form a gummy mess. In this tournament we used Procaps and borrowed the bunkers from a field that used Nelson. To clean the procaps we used squeegees and then threw some water on the bunkers. It washed right out. All the bunkers remained very sticky though, because of the Nelson residue. If you leave any Nelson residue, it will turn into gum and becomes impossible to remove.

In the case of the bunker I posted above, yes it has been neglected but keep in mind that if it were procaps, it would be possible to still clean it by leaving it in the rain or hosing it down. Nelson residue is waterproof and soap proof. The only way I've been able to take it off woodsball bunkers is by mechanical means, which isn't an option on air bunkers.

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/1753/nelsonbunkerca3.jpg

This residue looks almost identical to the stuff that ruins my paintball pants. I'll post more on those later.

Bunkerscrub looks promising, but I'm sure it isn't a cost effective way to clean an entire field. In Warpig's video review, Bill Mills talks about the streaks on bunkers being left over pigment. The problem with Nelson is not the pigment. In other paintballs, only the pigment is left to stain. With Nelson, most of the paintball remains in the form of oil or wax which given a day to dry, hardens into a gooey surface layer.


I'm sorry, I just don't understand how a bunker gets this soiling pattern, let alone after one use. I mean look at it, the top is covered! Am I the only one who thinks this is weird?

[Lohman446]

I'm sorry, I just don't understand how a bunker gets this soiling pattern, let alone after one use. I mean look at it, the top is covered! Am I the only one who thinks this is weird?

I would guess that was used as a lay-down at some point and thats when it got that soiled.

[Chronobreak]

so if its not canola oil..what is it?

what mixes with water and does not break down naturaly, in water, or with UV exposure

and Beemer, im no expert un the subject, but theres obviously grey areas pertaining to fills

just because something is non hazardous does not make it environmentaly friendly.

drg, you keep asking for prrof and all around people are posting the same info to collaborate my experiences.

you are saying this is not proof and are acting as if you know something that we dont.

so i ask you where is your counterevidence that this is not the case? that this is all some other type of mystery paint or something that we are not doing correctly as part of a cleanup ritual?

ok lets say i accept your theory on not cleaning airbal bunkers, should any field be expected to go out and clean up ALL of their wiid bunkers, barricades, hyper tubing etc on every field after everyday?

so unles you have something to post contrary to what I and nearly everyone else here is saying please dont post, Im starting to feel you have some reason to defend this paint or attempt a small damage control for nelson.

[Smoothice]

I would guess that was used as a lay-down at some point and thats when it got that soiled.

Or it blew over. Boy do I hate when that happens. Half way to a stand up bunker and it falls over :mad:

[pk5]

Well as I have said above, I personally have not found nelson to have washability problems, and that would be a key area to test. I have never seen a modern ball that would actually stain a lens.

You have not proven what oil is in the paint, so jumping to the conclusion that it is canola is a mistake right off the bat, and a use of an item as an insecticide may or may not have anything to do with its relative toxicity to humans or the environment. Oil is involved in the manufacture of all paintballs, regardless. You have not proven that the white residue is oil or related to the oil, versus the other agents in the paintball formula (thickeners, colorants, etc.)

Ultimately the claims are very, very broad and I am far from convinced a certain brand of paint is to blame and should be vilified for it. As a player I have been trying to glean some information from this crusade that I can act upon with confidence but I have never gotten it. Everything is just overbroad and anecdotal.

All this talk about the EPA and fields getting shut down smacks of hysteria and alarmism rather than well-defined reality, which is exactly what we don't need.


Sorry but this seem to get out of hand, with all of the concern regarding the environment lately, if a paint is oil base it will wash downstream eventually, consider that most field are in the rural area and near some type of creek or watershed. If the industry doesn't regulate it self then sooner or later an environmentalist will raise an alarm, a few endangered fish die and the industry will have a big problem on it hand. Consider that most field does not hold a very big political cloud, if an environmentalist raise an issues, it is not likely that the field can defend it self.

[drg]

you are saying this is not proof and are acting as if you know something that we dont.

No, I have not said I know anything beyond my own experiences, which do not square up with your claims. Nothing you have shown is very convincing otherwise. In other words, I suggest that what you know or think you know is not being communicated well, and is based more on emotion and generalizations than specifics. I as a thinking player cannot use this information.

Fields get dirty and collect paint residue, that's a fact of life. But if you are going to claim certain types of paint do specific things, it's incumbent on you to show that. It's not enough to show some dirty bunkers; you need to show how X paint does it while Y paint does not, you need to compare what you can determine of the formula, try to identify paints which have certain characteristics, show comparitive stainability, etc.

In other words you need to connect the dots. Right now you have thrown four dots out there and said that the picture is an elephant. That has been the problem from day 1 with this crusade.

[drg]

I would guess that was used as a lay-down at some point and thats when it got that soiled.

Do you honestly think that is the case? Do laydowns usually collect paint residue ON THEIR END? Were all the bunkers used as laydowns? You can see the bunkers in the back have the same soil pattern on them.

Again, how many balls do you actually see break on air bunkers, especially near edges and ends, let alone low-end balls?

[Lohman446]

Do you honestly think that is the case? Do laydowns usually collect paint residue ON THEIR END? Were all the bunkers used as laydowns? You can see the bunkers in the back have the same soil pattern on them.

Again, how many balls do you actually see break on air bunkers, especially near edges and ends, let alone low-end balls?

On the ground on the edges of the bunker and splattering up? A LOT. Especially near the edges where people tend to shoot from. Thats the honestly answer. At this point it seems you are simply attacking the obvious for whatever reason.

The fact is this. At some point we are going to have to answer a question.

Did what you were doing have an obvious environmental impact?

Was there a readily available substitute that had less of an impact?

Was this commercially available and easily attainable?

Was it available in the same price range?

Did you, or should you, know about it?


Then, after hearing yes to all of them you are going to be asked one more question.

Why?

I hope you have a better answer than the arguments you have presented here. And when you tell me the cost was different, and the cost difference was less than 10-20%, I hope you set aside all the money you saved.

Remember, the makers of asbestos ceiling tiles were following manufacturing standards of the time.

[Beemer]

and Beemer, im no expert un the subject, but theres obviously grey areas pertaining to fills

No doubt about that. They still sell RED fill dont they. :(
You need to find out whats in the fill[think MSDS] and then my last post will help. That is from ASTM standards. I know for a fact the standards arent followed. So do the other folks.


drg.....The fact is, it is all supposed to be WATER soluble. If they need to PROMOTE a cleaner I would guess that it isnt. Wonder what is in the cleaner along with the fill in the ball we are flushing in to the environment. You arent one of those that dont CLEAN their gogs[remove lense] after taking gog hits after playing for the day are you? Oh wait thats right it dont hurt nothing you dont HAVE to. It is still true most or all paint eats Polycarbonate, Lexon, Lexan etc... Another thing, why should WE do testing? WHY dont THEY tell us if they have done testing. Guess they should do that HUH? The testing thing. :tard:


Lohman446.........Nice Post. You left out a few questions but thats a good start.


:cheers:

[drg]

On the ground on the edges of the bunker and splattering up? A LOT. Especially near the edges where people tend to shoot from. Thats the honestly answer. At this point it seems you are simply attacking the obvious for whatever reason.

The fact is this. At some point we are going to have to answer a question.

Did what you were doing have an obvious environmental impact?

Was there a readily available substitute that had less of an impact?

Was this commercially available and easily attainable?

Was it available in the same price range?

Did you, or should you, know about it?


Then, after hearing yes to all of them you are going to be asked one more question.

Why?

I hope you have a better answer than the arguments you have presented here. And when you tell me the cost was different, and the cost difference was less than 10-20%, I hope you set aside all the money you saved.

Remember, the makers of asbestos ceiling tiles were following manufacturing standards of the time.

Does paint splatter up when it strikes the ground? No, it splatters in the direction of travel. The point of asking these questions is to hold the accusers to a decent standard rather than echoing emotion-laden, essentially unproven claims without thinking.

Ultimately, no one has presented an argument that answers ANY of those questions. That's the whole point of what I'm saying. Paint of many, if not all types leaves residue and can damage surfaces or have an impact on the land. Playing paintball period has impact. No one has proven that a certain ball actually does more damage or contains more harmful substances than another ball. I wish someone would!

Bringing up asbestos is more alarmism ... why does asbestos even have the reputation it does today? Not because of anything obvious or easily generalized, but scientifically discovered effects. At some point someone had to really prove that asbestos caused mesothelioma rather than any other environmental factor.

[russc]

No doubt about that. They still sell RED fill dont they. :(



http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/8793/redballsrv0.jpg

Here's me wearing some red Nelson. :D

[Lohman446]

Does paint splatter up when it strikes the ground? No, it splatters in the direction of travel. The point of asking these questions is to hold the accusers to a decent standard rather than echoing emotion-laden, essentially unproven claims without thinking.
.

Apparently the majority of the people you play with are far more accurate than the majority of the people I play with.

[3DSteve]

Chronobreak -
Thank you for this thread. We've been tackling the same problems at Xtreme and are taking measures to help the situation, but this thread explains a little behind what's going on.
DRG - I'm sorry you can't be convinced. Lucky for us this isn't a court of law and we don't need that type of proof. I only know what I see at the field, and I don't think it's overblown alarmism. What this type of paint causes, is a pain in the ***, and a loss of investment. I don't think our attempts to solve a problem and discuss it are extreme or uncalled for.

If a company is using shady business practices, or crappy formulas, this is the perfect place to discuss it. Whether Nelson falls into these catagories, is up to each individual, but I try to be concious of whose hands my money ends up in.

[Lohman446]

Ultimately, no one has presented an argument that answers ANY of those questions. That's the whole point of what I'm saying. Paint of many, if not all types leaves residue and can damage surfaces or have an impact on the land. Playing paintball period has impact. No one has proven that a certain ball actually does more damage or contains more harmful substances than another ball. I wish someone would!.

The non-blanding formulas used by regulation on some MOUT sites is not proven to have less of an obvious impact?

[drg]

The non-blanding formulas used by regulation on some MOUT sites is not proven to have less of an obvious impact?

Did you read the article? That white stuff is titanium dioxide and is found in many different paints, incuding many PEG based paints.

[russc]

I don't think anyone is claiming that Titanium Dioxide is harmful beyond leaving white stains. I guess MOUT sites don't have a problems with their buildings being whitewashed.

Now, if the fill was left behind in the form of a waxy/oily deposit, I'm sure they'd disallow it.

[michbich]

Did you read the article? That white stuff is titanium dioxide and is found in many different paints, incuding many PEG based paints.
So what if it's found in paint. It doesn't mean that it's harmful.

"Used as a white food colouring, it has E number E171. In cosmetic and skin care products, titanium dioxide is used both as a pigment and a thickener. It is also used as a tattoo pigment and styptic pencils"

"In almost every sunscreen with a physical blocker, titanium dioxide is found because of its high refractive index, its strong UV light absorbing capabilities and its resistance to discolouration under ultraviolet light. This advantage enhances its stability and ability to protect the skin from ultraviolet light. Sunscreens designed for infants or people with sensitive skin are often based on titanium dioxide and/or zinc oxide, as these mineral UV blockers are less likely to cause skin irritation than chemical UV absorber ingredients, such as avobenzone."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_dioxide

You say you want proof, but where is yours on TO2?

[Lohman446]

I didn't say it wasn't found in many. I simply stated that it is found in at least one readily available substitute.

So... it blocks UV rays. We can see it obviously does something :). I'm sure that blocking UV rays has no adverse effect on plant life.... :rolleyes:

[michbich]

I didn't say it wasn't found in many. I simply stated that it is found in at least one readily available substitute.

So... it blocks UV rays. We can see it obviously does something :). I'm sure that blocking UV rays has no adverse effect on plant life.... :rolleyes:
Light absorbed for photosynthese is not located in the UV range. It is located in the visible spectrum. :ninja:

Also, many sunscreens *are biodegradable.

*Edit: added "re"

[Lohman446]

Light absorbed for photosynthese is not located in the UV range. It is located in the visible spectrum. :ninja:

Also, many sunscreens *are biodegradable.

*Edit: added "re"

:) My bad. I would have assumed that a cover over it would have had detrimental effects.

Still think visibly scarring things is not a good idea if there is an alternative.

[michbich]

The biggest arguement against water soluble paint that I see would be:

Since water soluble paintballs gets washed away with rain, they penetrate the earth faster and could reach underwater streams leading to lacs or rivers. If they do polute the environment, water soluble (hydrophyl) substances would cause more damage to the environment then oil based (hydrophobe) solutions. Since hydrophobe substances do not mix with water, the damage caused to the environment would be conceled in a defined area.

Even if it isn't concidered polution, in a high enough concentration (of anything) can still cause some damage.

Too much of a good thing is too much.
Ex: Water is needed to sustain life but drinking too much of it is fatal.

[txrabbit]

the DO NOT ALLOW list is basicly as follows but is not limited to

Stryker
Monster ball
Nelson paints
low end jt/be paints such as tactical(recon is ok)

visual impact is water soluable however it does have a heavy staining agent or permanent dye in it so i cant reccomend that.


all the XO paint is starch/peg based, as is GAP paints. RPS premium stains as well.

[Chronobreak]

all the XO paint is oil based, as is GAP paints. RPS premium stains as well.


what, really?

we used rps premium for years and never had an issue....unles they changed the formula recently.

we also have tested all XO paint that has beeb brought in, it was water soluable though we diddnt test for staining on either

the only kee paint that was difficult to clean so far was the low end stinger which is a mix of something nasty, and marbalizers

heres a few links to similar threads on PBN,

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=2868079

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=2855735

[Chronobreak]

The biggest arguement against water soluble paint that I see would be:

Since water soluble paintballs gets washed away with rain, they penetrate the earth faster and could reach underwater streams leading to lacs or rivers. If they do polute the environment, water soluble (hydrophyl) substances would cause more damage to the environment then oil based (hydrophobe) solutions. Since hydrophobe substances do not mix with water, the damage caused to the environment would be conceled in a defined area.

Even if it isn't concidered polution, in a high enough concentration (of anything) can still cause some damage.

Too much of a good thing is too much.
Ex: Water is needed to sustain life but drinking too much of it is fatal.


mich, just wanted to throw in here, the water soluale paints are predominantly PEG which is the main ingredient in soaps and tons of household items, foods etc.

theres no worry there at all, well none more than soap washing down the sink atleast

and if the paint stays in one place, its likely the damage would also be magnified in that area, possibly to the point of having to remove several feet of topsoil just to have the place be OK again..

[txrabbit]

we also have tested all XO paint that has beeb brought in, it was water soluable though we diddnt test for staining on either


i mistyped. we got a shipment of premium recently and it stains the hell out of my bunkers, and refs.

[Chronobreak]

i mistyped. we got a shipment of premium recently and it stains the hell out of my bunkers, and refs.

hrm, il have to test that out...havent had alot coming into the field lately with kee raising their prices

[russc]

Brand new skid of Nelson Nelsplats at the field last weekend. Tested it in water, it's definitely not soluble.