ManInBlack's Autotrigger

[ManInBlack]

I decided to put this into it's own thread so I stop mucking up MagHog's thread :rolleyes:

You might remember the autotrigger I designed after trying to duplicate MagHog's RT enhancer. It's fugly (functionally ugly) but effective, as seen here:
<embed width="448" height="361" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" src="http://i121.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid121.photobucket.com/albums/o234/CrashInBlack/Paintball/ManInBlacksAutotrigger.flv">

MagHog took my design and created the STUNNINGLY GORGEOUS version you see at the end of the video. I'm writing this thread now to say I received it in the mail yesterday and fitted it to my gun. Pictures don't do this thing justice, but anyway...

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o234/CrashInBlack/Paintball/DSCF1374.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o234/CrashInBlack/Paintball/DSCF1372.jpg

It's very comfortable too.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o234/CrashInBlack/Paintball/DSCF1363.jpg

I don't know how he does it, but it's polished aluminum even though it looks chromed.

I still have some fitting to do before it will become functional, but that will have to wait until this weekend as I don't have air right now :cry: . Anyway, just wanted to show off this beautiful piece of art that Dan came up with from my design. Thanks Dan!

[Hilltop Customs]

niiiiice....

you could always put a set screw up high on the "spring board" if you ever wanted to switch between semi and FA.

[ManInBlack]

That's actually part of the plan.

[bunny5]

ManInBlack: I skimmed over that previous thread so i'm not sure if this is a dumb question but... Maghog saw you attempt this and then went ahead and created a one off trigger and gave it to you?

[ManInBlack]

Yes. After I made my version and posted it he said he had something for me and asked for my mailing address. This trigger is what showed up (he sent me pics first). He and I are thinking about working together to make a batch of these, but I need to do some testing and troubleshooting with it first.

[MAGnetism]

sweet

[bunny5]

ManInBlack: That's definitely one of the coolest things to happen on these forums in a looong time. Glad to hear about your story. I have a feeling that anything Maghog related would def. sell :D

[Ruler_Mark]

cant wait for him to sell them.

[Outlaw5]

Sick concept and application of a great idea. Yeah...I would definately get two or three of these things.......very awesome looking and functioning trigger! Props to you and Maghog. Outlaw5 :D

[chinstrap]

Yes. After I made my version and posted it he said he had something for me and asked for my mailing address. This trigger is what showed up (he sent me pics first). He and I are thinking about working together to make a batch of these, but I need to do some testing and troubleshooting with it first.

That video is with 850 PSI input pressure? Wow. Sign me up for at least one if/when you make them.

Is there anything else that needs to be done to get it to work like that? Or is it just a drop-in?

[ManInBlack]

It should be just a drop in. If we make a batch of these I'm going to fit them to my gun and test them before they go out. Intelliframes are well enough made that if it works in mine it should work in any of them.

[DanMan]

is there a way to make it look less phat? I know that is the maghog look, but I think it is out of place on alot of the harder edged mags.

[secretweaponevan]

Oops I crapped my pants.

ANXIOUSLY awaiting these!

[ManInBlack]

is there a way to make it look less phat? I know that is the maghog look, but I think it is out of place on alot of the harder edged mags.

I think it would look good on most Mags.

[FiXeL]

All i can say is wow... If this would not get me into trouble at biggames (no full auto) i would be definatly buying one! :headbang:

[Chaos_Theory!]

lmao, kicks like a mofo.

[XM15]

You made a Hellfire trigger for a paintball gun. It works a thousands times better on your mag than it ever did on a firearm.

[pump]

YES! :headbang:

[secretweaponevan]

Will it work in a classic valve with RT on/off?

If it will, be prepared to sell tons.

[MAGslinger]

Hey could you make me one? I got $$$

[ManInBlack]

Will it work in a classic valve with RT on/off?

If it will, be prepared to sell tons.

Unlikely. It's designed to work with a normal RT type valve. It probably won't even work with an RT ULT with extra shims. As far as I know an RT on/off in a classic valve just softens it up a bit and doesn't add any reactivity. This trigger takes advantage of the reactivity for the rapid fire.

My tanks are being filled tonight or tomorrow so hopefully I'll get to test this version soon. I've also acquired a .740" on/off pin for my gun to see if I can get a little more reactivity out of it, and more BPS. Using my gun with just the regular trigger before this valve honestly didn't feel like it had a lot of natural reactivity. I have an old classic RT that reacted more. We'll see how the new pin does.

[ManInBlack]

Hey could you make me one? I got $$$

Patience, grasshopper... ;)

[Maghog]

From the way that it looks, we're going to have to do some extensive testing in order to get this thing working solidly as a drop in production model. We don't want to give you something that will break or wear out after a few thousand cycles.
I have started to draw up some plans for the second model, and I'm just waiting for ManInBlack to test the first one so we can make the necessary adjustments.
It should work out nicely in the end, and we'll have yet another fun mod for the Mag to play with.
Later,
Dan@Triggernomics

[Smoothice]

Very cool. If I owned a mech mag this would be on my christmas list.

Make sure to include an instruction maual. "Sweet spotting for Dummies".

:rofl:

:cheers:

[rawbutter]

Since I've been MIA, let me just make sure I'm getting this straight.

The point of the flexible plank thinger behind the trigger is to allow the RT effect to push back, even when the trigger is fully depressed, right? So basically, you don't have to "sweet spot" the RT valve. You can just yank back the trigger and that little flexible piece does all the work for you.

Am I understanding this right? If it I, I want one (and I don't even own an RT). :D

[viper-mayhem]

Who do I send the prepayment and order too.....lol.

[ManInBlack]

Since I've been MIA, let me just make sure I'm getting this straight.

The point of the flexible plank thinger behind the trigger is to allow the RT effect to push back, even when the trigger is fully depressed, right? So basically, you don't have to "sweet spot" the RT valve. You can just yank back the trigger and that little flexible piece does all the work for you.

Am I understanding this right? If it I, I want one (and I don't even own an RT). :D

Bingo.

[BiNumber3]

wouldnt that make it hard to do single shots as is? i saw the other version with a lock, but would u be able to switch quickly enough for it to be practical?

[Hilltop Customs]

you could use a set screw and a small cam at the top of the trigger, you could switch modes with 1/4 of a turn of the set screw. Or more simply a trigger stop like set screw at the top of the trigger behind the spring borad, but that would take longer to switch between modes.

tool less would be nice, but it would be hard to fit anything like that on a trigger.....not to say its impossible, just takes some thinking outside the box.

[ManInBlack]

It's probably going to end up being a set screw you'll have to move into place to chrono or whatever (if you even ever get to use this in a game :shooting: ). A cam might work but I designed this to be as simple as possible. And also, it's a FULL AUTO trigger :D .

Tell you what, I'll do some experiments and see if I can get a cam thing or something to work. In all probability though that's probably not going to be realistic to produce.

[viper-mayhem]

How realistic is it for you to product the trigger as is? And when?

[ManInBlack]

Looks like it will probably happen IF there is actually enough interest in it. And by interest I mean paying customers. But that's a bit into the future. MagHog and I are still working on getting it right. I finally got my tanks filled and should be able to get this pretty version working soon. Once that happens we'll go from there.

I'd also like to say thanks to everyone commenting in here. It's good to hear what people think about this.

[matteusz]

It's probably going to end up being a set screw you'll have to move into place to chrono or whatever (if you even ever get to use this in a game :shooting: ). A cam might work but I designed this to be as simple as possible. And also, it's a FULL AUTO trigger :D .

Tell you what, I'll do some experiments and see if I can get a cam thing or something to work. In all probability though that's probably not going to be realistic to produce.

Here's outside the box for you. Put a pair of magnets to use. Embed one in the trigger and a second one in a piece that could be used like a cam. All you need is a way to slide the "cam" (or maybe jam would be a better term) into place without coming loose. Nothing some simple machine work can't fix.

Bam slap in the jam and chrono. Pop it out and put in in your pocket (or on a string or something) and you are ready to rock. :bounce:

[Hilltop Customs]

Here's outside the box for you. Put a pair of magnets to use. Embed one in the trigger and a second one in a piece that could be used like a cam. All you need is a way to slide the "cam" (or maybe jam would be a better term) into place without coming loose. Nothing some simple machine work can't fix.

Bam slap in the jam and chrono. Pop it out and put in in your pocket (or on a string or something) and you are ready to rock. :bounce:

hehe you made an idea pop in my head....how about a small top portion that hits the metal spring directly. Imagine a single and double finger trigger on the same trigger. Pull the upper trigger you get single shot, bottom trigger full auto.

Wouldnt be hard to do this one, probably easier than the cam that I was talking about earlier.


Edit hopefully this makes more sense. The top trigger would pull both triggers, but it would put force against the spring...keeping it from bouncing and going FA. The bottom trigger would only pull the spring back on the bottom, allowing it to bounce and go full auto.

[ManInBlack]

Ok, interesting ideas, but again maybe getting a bit complicated. At this point I'm thinking the best solution would be a simple clip on type thing to fill in the spring gap at the top of the trigger. Yes it's another part to carry around but you'd be doing that with the magnet idea anyway (btw, I'm trying to visualize that and it is kind of a slick idea).

[matteusz]

Ok, interesting ideas, but again maybe getting a bit complicated. At this point I'm thinking the best solution would be a simple clip on type thing to fill in the spring gap at the top of the trigger. Yes it's another part to carry around but you'd be doing that with the magnet idea anyway (btw, I'm trying to visualize that and it is kind of a slick idea).

Thanks. All I mean is instead of a clip you get a chunk that goes behind the spring. Either way a simple piece like this would be the most economical in my mind.

[Maghog]

I think that trying to force this trigger to be a do all, be all trigger is a mistake. Sure, we can figure out a way to lockout the full auto effect, and make it work. One way or another though, you'll require a tool, part, or something to make that happen. Just being able to flick in a lockout switch would make the trigger much more expensive, and when we come along saying that the trigger costs 100$ without any kind of lockout, half of you will be asking us why we can't make the whole thing for $10.50 and probably not buy one anyway.

It's this simple, if you want full auto, put the trigger in. If you want single shot, put your normal trigger in. That's that. If you want another version, fine. I can incorperate a nifty little switch in there that will double the price of the trigger. Most of the ideas for a lockout that I've seen here might sound good, but we need to think longevity. The last thing I want to do is hear that these triggers start to fall apart in a year.

I am willing to do what you guys want. I really love this mod, and that's why I'm considering making a run of them, but as soon as the *****ing and moaning about money starts, I'm done. It's not my source of income and I don't need to stress myself more than I already am.

So you guys think about it and make up your minds what you want.

I don't mean to sound bitter, rather I am talking out of experiences I've made in the past.
I'm done giving away stuff for nothing, and I can still promise that I would work on this project with a minimal profit margin, JUST to make you guys happy.

Dan


Sorry about the cussing Mods, I got carried away.

[viper-mayhem]

Agreed. I would buy the trigger if the cost is relatively inexpensive(under $35). Thats a comparison on aftermarket trigger. Yes some do cost more and some less. Your idea is fine. Let the others figure out a way to make it either full or semi. Production must start before changes occur. If more of an interest is in the cam idea after production, then use some of that money to fund the project further.

Guys, he had definitely done a lot of work and hasn't gotten paid yet. If you like the idea, then show him the cash.

[DanMan]

when you buy something custom think about how long it will take to make it. Then think how much you get paid per hour. Alot of stuff it is pretty well priced when you think of it like that. So i have to agree with Maghog, dont complain about the price if you want it, it very well could be more expensive.

[ManInBlack]

MagHog has spoken :hail:

Anyway, next step is for me to get this version working (still have a little filing to do) and then beat the snot out of it. I'm literally going to be running thousands upon thousands of cycles with this thing. Different pressure settings, speeds, etc. I'm going to try to break it. If it can survive what I'm going to put it through then we'll be closer to making some.

[matteusz]

I think that trying to force this trigger to be a do all, be all trigger is a mistake. Sure, we can figure out a way to lockout the full auto effect, and make it work. One way or another though, you'll require a tool, part, or something to make that happen. Just being able to flick in a lockout switch would make the trigger much more expensive, and when we come along saying that the trigger costs 100$ without any kind of lockout, half of you will be asking us why we can't make the whole thing for $10.50 and probably not buy one anyway.

It's this simple, if you want full auto, put the trigger in. If you want single shot, put your normal trigger in. That's that. If you want another version, fine. I can incorperate a nifty little switch in there that will double the price of the trigger. Most of the ideas for a lockout that I've seen here might sound good, but we need to think longevity. The last thing I want to do is hear that these triggers start to fall apart in a year.

I am willing to do what you guys want. I really love this mod, and that's why I'm considering making a run of them, but as soon as the *****ing and moaning about money starts, I'm done. It's not my source of income and I don't need to stress myself more than I already am.

So you guys think about it and make up your minds what you want.

I don't mean to sound bitter, rather I am talking out of experiences I've made in the past.
I'm done giving away stuff for nothing, and I can still promise that I would work on this project with a minimal profit margin, JUST to make you guys happy.

Dan


Sorry about the cussing Mods, I got carried away.

Hmm I was just knocking around ideas. When it comes to actual production the decision is you guys. Do you want to make it, will it sell for enough to make a profit worth doing it? If you can't answer yes to those I would be happier if you didn't do it either. Besides when it does come down to it I wonder how much practical use anyone will get out of one of these anyway?

[chinstrap]

Besides when it does come down to it I wonder how much practical use anyone will get out of one of these anyway?

Personally, I was planning to use it in outlaw games where everybody is playing with full-auto electros.

I prefer my mech mag and don't have the resources (read time or money) at the moment to convert it even if I wanted to and also haven't been able to find an adjustable tank for a decent price.

This just happens to be the perfect solution if it can get around 10 BPS with an 850 PSI preset and ends up being under $50 or so (ideally). That, and both versions look sweet; ManInBlack's because it's got this vicious, nasty, made-in-a-garage, no-frills kind of thing going on and Maghog's because it matches the spinnaz on my Escalade.


So either way, I'm in and will be waiting patiently with my fingers crossed. No way to turn it off needed; I figure I can stick something in the middle of the bouncy thing and the trigger if need be.

I also don't care how ghetto it looks, for the record, as long as it functions well and doesn't mess up my marker.

[Maghog]

Alright, let's do the math, because your expectations (so far stated)are not feasable for me.
I need two and a half hours to hand cut, carve, file and polish one of these. This does not include overhead, with polishing pastes, saw blades, cutters, plate stock, electricity, and so forth. Then I have to ship them to ManInBlack who still needs to fit in the steel blade, test and send it on to the customer.
How much would you ask for a single unit if you had to do all this to produce it?


Now, I could look into have these things cast to reduce the cost, which would be poorer quality, and only really work if we made a batch of 500 or so. This would require a large up front investment that I don't have and a commitment on the part of the consumer which is hard to rely on. In the end you could cut off 30-40% of the above mentioned method, and still risking the poor quality which could wind us up with 500 broken triggers in a half year. This is a path I'd rather not follow, but worth mentioning for the sake of this post.

So I know what I'd charge, but it's interesting to hear your thoughts.
Honestly, what would you expect to make for such a production?
I'm interested.
Dan

[snoopay700]

Alright, let's do the math, because your expectations (so far stated)are not feasable for me.
I need two and a half hours to hand cut, carve, file and polish one of these. This does not include overhead, with polishing pastes, saw blades, cutters, plate stock, electricity, and so forth. Then I have to ship them to ManInBlack who still needs to fit in the steel blade, test and send it on to the customer.
How much would you ask for a single unit if you had to do all this to produce it?


Now, I could look into have these things cast to reduce the cost, which would be poorer quality, and only really work if we made a batch of 500 or so. This would require a large up front investment that I don't have and a commitment on the part of the consumer which is hard to rely on. In the end you could cut off 30-40% of the above mentioned method, and still risking the poor quality which could wind us up with 500 broken triggers in a half year. This is a path I'd rather not follow, but worth mentioning for the sake of this post.

So I know what I'd charge, but it's interesting to hear your thoughts.
Honestly, what would you expect to make for such a production?
I'm interested.
Dan
Honestly man for the practical uses of this trigger and the fairly small amount of people that are interested in it, i would say it's not really worth it on your part.

[trevorjk]

i would say its not worth it to do a production run, but more of a built upon purchase thing. with the time an effort i could easily see these triggers going for $75-$100 easy. and at the price the majority of paintballers will not be buying. however you will get some sales, just not enough for a production run.

just my .2cents

[chinstrap]

Also for the record, $50 was a number I just pulled out of my cornhole, having no idea of the process involved.

[ManInBlack]

I'm also thinking this would work best as a "build per order" type of thing. You can all see the skills involved in making these things exist, you know they're not going to be cheap. MagHog and I will not be making money on these things, even at $75-$100 a pop, but we're willing to make them simply because we know there are people out there who will pay for them and appreciate them. MagHog - Feel free to correct me if I speak for you incorrectly :hail:

[Maghog]

No we're good MIB,
I am still up for doing this. Making less is easier for me than making more.
If we wind up making 20 of them, then so be it.
I just wanted to wave a warning flag so you guys don't get disappointed when we come out with this price, and I had once stated in the other thread that we would probably be able to do it for under 100$. Which still remains a fact.
I finished a second prototype, and when I do the third, I'll do a step by step photo shoot of the whole process so you guys get to SEE what's involved.
Dan

[ManInBlack]

I'll do a step by step photo shoot of the whole process so you guys get to SEE what's involved.
Dan

Now THAT I have to see. :dance:

[rawbutter]

So, is this still happening? Has anyone bought one of these custom triggers? Just wondering if the idea's still alive or if it died.

[ManInBlack]

I've been playing with it, but it looks more and more like each trigger would have to be custom tuned to a specific marker. I had it working perfectly on my one marker and can't get it working on another for the life of me.

[viper-mayhem]

The more and more I think about it, I would rather have one of these than changing out regs on my tank. Please keep us posted on your R&D work. VM

[p8ntbal4me]

This is very impressive,.. nice work guys!

~ P8nt

[Redarms]

wow if you have this work as a select fire with a set screw or some kind of safey type of pin on the trigger then i just spent too much money on my e-mag :rofl: great work guys :headbang:

[Redarms]

hehe you made an idea pop in my head....how about a small top portion that hits the metal spring directly. Imagine a single and double finger trigger on the same trigger. Pull the upper trigger you get single shot, bottom trigger full auto.

Wouldnt be hard to do this one, probably easier than the cam that I was talking about earlier.


Edit hopefully this makes more sense. The top trigger would pull both triggers, but it would put force against the spring...keeping it from bouncing and going FA. The bottom trigger would only pull the spring back on the bottom, allowing it to bounce and go full auto.



so the top trigger would be like a glock trigger and the bottom one full auto that would be great, :shooting: but i think no longer cheap to produce.

[L3MUR]

this is a really neat project. The custom trigger in the pics looks amazing. I don't think I've ever seen your custom work before. :headbang:

[ManInBlack]

I'm still working on it. Got some thoughts I want to try out and, thankfully, a coming 3 day weekend to do it. I'll keep you guys posted if there's any progress. I've actually got this trigger on my classic RT right now :)

[Dawg047]

I will definately take one if you come out with these. I am a little fuzzy on how they work. So is that back piece vibrating between the pin and the trigger with tension from the set screw and the bottom of the trigger to create a wave affect on the sear pin?

[Dawg047]

Yep, ok, got it. Also, is the "wave board" piece made out of aluminum? Wonder what it would do if made out of a thicker, or a softer, or a harder piece? Just throwing ideas out? Just saying if maybe the piece was plastic or maybe stainless, wonder how it would affect the trigger?

[ManInBlack]

It's made from spring steel. It's the only thing I've found that seems strong and flexible enough to do it.

[rawbutter]

It's made from spring steel. It's the only thing I've found that seems strong and flexible enough to do it.

Where do you find something like that?

[ManInBlack]

Where do you find something like that?

I used an old Bansaw blade. It's a big one, so I think I've got enough of the stuff for a couple hundred triggers. :rolleyes:

[om3n]

:eek:

is there any way to modify a stock blade trigger from an intelliframe to do this? Man that is an awesome idea!

[Maghog]

:eek:

is there any way to modify a stock blade trigger from an intelliframe to do this? Man that is an awesome idea!

No, this is not possible, you won't be able to put enough room between the trigger and the the end of the sear rod to allow the mechanism to function properly.
The way it looks, ManInBlack is not going to be able to move forward with this, and if anyone is interested, then I'll be willing to make them a blank where they can play around with different parts of steel. If there is enough interest, then I would make a batch as seen in the video's here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iE99-3Wsbio

I will not sell complete trigger, as I am not in a position to test and fit them. If I can generate enough interest, say between 20-30 triggers, then I could say I'd do it for around 40$ per trigger.
Dan

[ManInBlack]

That seems like the best way to do it. The more I play with it the more I realize that each trigger needs to be tuned to a specific gun. If I were to go forward with making these I would need everyone to send me there gun to tune it. I just don't have the time. I'll just take credit for this particular design and give MagHog the credit for making them look beautiful.

[Maghog]

No doubt MIB, your modification of this design warrants credit. I would have loved to have done this with you, and I'm not really even out to do this for the money because I really won't make much. It's just if you look at this thread, there are definitely more than a few people who would love this trigger.
Let's let them have it, as long as they know they're going to have put in a bit of grit themselves.
Dan

[Spider-TW]

That seems like the best way to do it. The more I play with it the more I realize that each trigger needs to be tuned to a specific gun. If I were to go forward with making these I would need everyone to send me there gun to tune it. I just don't have the time. I'll just take credit for this particular design and give MagHog the credit for making them look beautiful.
I'm guessing you need a way to control the stiffness of your flat spring. A decent test rig would be an RT setup with an adjustable regulator (you think?). Varying the pressure from no RT to full pressure should give an acceptable span I would think.

[ManInBlack]

I'm guessing you need a way to control the stiffness of your flat spring. A decent test rig would be an RT setup with an adjustable regulator (you think?). Varying the pressure from no RT to full pressure should give an acceptable span I would think.

It's more that each gun is different. I have set screws in mine to vary the spring stiffness *a little* but a lot of it was shaving the spring down to the right size to provide as close to the correct stiffness as possible. I moved the working autotrigger from one gun to another and could not get it to work. Same air, same type of frame, no go.

[Maghog]

It's more that each gun is different. I have set screws in mine to vary the spring stiffness *a little* but a lot of it was shaving the spring down to the right size to provide as close to the correct stiffness as possible. I moved the working autotrigger from one gun to another and could not get it to work. Same air, same type of frame, no go.

This is similar to the original RT Enhancer design. It's a finicky thing, needing a lot of time to tweek. Once you get it though, it runs and runs and runs and runs.

[om3n]

So if you do indeed make and sell these, would you include the spring steel piece with the trigger?

[Maghog]

So if you do indeed make and sell these, would you include the spring steel piece with the trigger?

No, this I would not do. I would provide a blank that would have no threaded holes, steel or any other settings. It would just be a raw piece for you to modify.