I need to rant.

[Hilltop Customs]

Well I was typing this out in someone elses thread to vent, and didnt want to cause them the pain of reading it, so here it is for anyone who dares to venture into this thread:

Well, I just got back from my exam........the professor is a....better stop myself now, not enough ***'s in the swear filter to cover up what I have to say about her.

anyway, it was 2 hour exam, normally takes me .5-1.5 hours to finish a 2 hour exam. This one took every minute, and there wasnt even time to go back and answer 2 questions worth 3% each. Only got to do about 1/2 of the model for the final questions which is worth 25%(model is a simulation model, involving multiple part types and several servers with different sevice time distributions based upon customer type and location) so lost another ~15% there. Didnt have any time to go over anything for mistakes, so who knows how many stupid mistakes I made.

This wasnt limited to me, not a single person finished before the 2 hour mark. Everyone worked past her saying stop, and she threatened to walk out.

Her grading is harsh to say the LEAST. Not to mention some of the questions were so broad....like "what causes this"....when there are 1000 things that cause the situation and she is looking for one specific reason to grade for.

I had previous years exams....from outside sources :cool: anyway, comparing them, our was about 50% longer than previous years. I'm talking an entire added model, and at least 2 added written response questions. I had these exams to study with its easy to see I had an advantage going into this test, and I still had this much difficulty. I couldnt imagine going into the test without them, because bluntly she hasn't taught us JACK.

I would send her an email to complain, but I have no doubt she would hold it against me. And there is no way in hell I am going to send this lady a nice email and try to get her to emphasize with me, I have more self respect than that.

I think the idea of a time limited test is bull to begin with, but giving a test which has virtually no chance of being completed in the time frame is just morally wrong and should not be done by a respectable professor.

[Avianrave]

Time limit's suck. I swear that grades would go up if people had the comfort knowing they had all the time in the world, and could just focus on the content instead of the time.

If you really want to give people bonus points on the test by completing it in a certain amount of time, then everyone wins. If you prefer being stressed for time, then you could try to get those extra bonus points. If the material is difficult and you need to work through it, then go ahead.

One problem is that I find myself doing some shortcuts, where I would have been much better off actually doing the problem the way your supposed to.

[MANN]

sucks. Gotta hate professors who make test that are impossible to finish.

My thermodynamics teacher was the same way. I never finished more than half of any test throughout the year.

The curve at the end of the semester ended up allowing anyone with a 45 to pass with a B (yes that is out of 100). IIRC 8 of the 50 passed.

Some teachers believe that their role in life is to fail students. Chin up. You will make it, and probably be more productive than the teacher.

Those that can do; do. Those who cant teach.

/wifes a teacher. :eek:

[Pneumagger]

As long as you are on-par with the class, you are fine.

Timed exams suck, but it's the only way to separate the entire curve of the class without giving infinite time to finish.

[y0da900]

My rigid body dynamics professor showed up 45 minutes late to our final exam (3 hour limit, set by the school), had no TA to help hand out tests, took another 45 minutes to hand them out, and at least half was stuff that hadn't even remotely been touched on in class or any of the homework. Nobody finished. He also said about the second week of class when someone asked for a better explanation "I have tenure, I don't care".

[teufelhunden]

Sucks.

And :cry: :cry: :cry: to issues with time limits. You don't get infinite time in life, don't expect it on tests.

You're not the first to not finish a test, won't be the last, and yes, I graduated with a technical major as well, so I had my share. Had my share of tests I didn't finish too, I lived. And crappy professors.

[Pneumagger]

Sucks.

And :cry: :cry: :cry: to issues with time limits. You don't get infinite time in life, don't expect it on tests.

You're not the first to not finish a test, won't be the last, and yes, I graduated with a technical major as well, so I had my share. Had my share of tests I didn't finish too, I lived. And crappy professors.
this.

[Hilltop Customs]

might not get infinite time in life, but you can devote more time to what is pertinent to you.....

and that doesnt change the fact that giving/grading on a test which is not completable in the time frame is counterproductive. Kind of like a boss giving you a project which has no chance at being completed in the given time frame, then shortening it even more.

I've had crappy profs before, this one takes the cake thats why I felt the need to rant.

[MoeMag]

...
I just had a midterm this evening. 2 problems. 1.5 hours.
didnt finish.

no one did. one guy walked out so ticked off he gave up as he slamed the door on the way out.

me... i am typing this with my left hand, my index and middle finger because i broke other fingers after giving the door what for on the way out.

stopped by the urgent care on the way home.

i get to have a few pins installed now.

:cuss:

right there with ya
:cheers:

[Ruler_Mark]

There is a class here for Chem-e's 50% failing rate, 35% is a pass.

[maxama10]

sorry man... hang in there



and teufel, I disagree... :|

[MANN]

And :cry: :cry: :cry: to issues with time limits. You don't get infinite time in life, don't expect it on tests.


Yes. And how many jobs throw you out of a plane, and have you determine the velocity of a ball on a car while in movement around a corner on a tuesday.

IMO 50% of college test are not a test of what you understand as it is a teachers personal hurtle. I cannot tell you how many classes I crammed for test just to loose all of the information the day after. You get your real education after you get out of college.

[MANN]

There is a class here for Chem-e's 50% failing rate, 35% is a pass.

That class is at every university. Its called Chem 101. :rofl:

[neppo1345]

Hmm, sounds like 96% of the engineering classes I've taken.

[Hilltop Customs]

after sleeping on it.....I just see more and more how stupid a test designed to take the full 2 hours is.

Instead of grading on knowledge, your grading on the rate that students can process the test.....knowledge and % correct now come secondary to completeness. Put random crap down for a questions and your likely to get some points for a lot of questions, sit and think about a question and get the full point value and you will likely have many incomplete at the end.



Finally, this is the first exam I've really studied hard for(havent been to class for over 6 weeks so I had to catch up). By the end of studying, I was explaining everything to my 4 study partners. I am good at taking tests, I have not taken the whole 2 hours for an exam EVER, except when I showed up 45 minutes late for a statistics exam....and I still finished that with a 5 minute extension(although it was a first pass through the exam with no review).


This class teaches us that designing a system(taking the test) where a resource(the student) is under full utilization is bad based upon variance in the system and the resources performance.....and then our time is fully utilized on the exam......that is hypocritical and simply doesnt make sense.

Curving to adjust for the lost points because of not finishing(too much work, not enough time) is bad practice to say the least. Then you are not even grading, your just taking students scores, which have no relevance to their knowledge(grading based on completeness) and fitting them to a curve. Curves are a bad idea, usually used by bad professors....I know its great to hear your getting extra points as a student, but why do the students need those extra points to begin with? In this case, not enough time for the test, which could be fixed to begin with, so we would actually be graded on our subject knowledge. Other situations might be more demanding of a curve, but when a simple redesign of the test can create a better grading scheme for the test....I'd take the slightly shorter test over the given points anyday.

[Lohman446]

after sleeping on it.....I just see more and more how stupid a test designed to take the full 2 hours is.

Instead of grading on knowledge, your grading on the rate that students can process the test.....knowledge and % correct now come secondary to completeness. Put random crap down for a questions and your likely to get some points for a lot of questions, sit and think about a question and get the full point value and you will likely have many incomplete at the end.


Your buying into an academic fallacy that efficiency is not a primary concern. Knowledge is important, processing information correctly is important, but efficiency is also key.

Personally I would design every test to take the full time allotment or better.

Think of the ASVAB tests - I scored very high on them across the board, but the coding section I did not have a prayer of completing in the alloted time. Judging by my score nor did anyone else. This was judged both on efficiency and accuracy.

[Hilltop Customs]

Your buying into an academic fallacy that efficiency is not a primary concern. Knowledge is important, processing information correctly is important, but efficiency is also key.

Personally I would design every test to take the full time allotment or better.

Think of the ASVAB tests - I scored very high on them across the board, but the coding section I did not have a prayer of completing in the alloted time. Judging by my score nor did anyone else. This was judged both on efficiency and accuracy.


What about this then, since all aspects are important. Have the majority of the test be designed to be well within the time limit. and have a specific secion devoted to grading on efficieny, this section would be solely based on the "work" that a class is being taught.

Written response questions can vary highly on how fast you can write, I can type MUCH faster than I can write, not only that, revisions are nearly instantanious compared to erase or scratch out. If we are being graded on effiency, we should be allowed to make the test more efficient as we are taking it.

I asked the prof a specific qestion about effiency at the beginning of the test....I asked if I could make a description table on the first page, so instead of writing whole words in my models I could use single letters.....MUCH more efficient than writing the same words(5) 30+ times apiece. She told me specifically to write the words out. She made me less efficient. So....how does that test my efficiency when I saw an improvement, but was limited by the professor? I really did ask her this, kind of weird you mendioned efficiency, because I explained to her that it would be much more efficieny, and she just stared back at me with the glazed over dumbass professor look.

This method would have gave me more time to review accuracy, so in turn it would have increased both my efficiency and accuracy. Efficiency cannot be tested unless you give room for variation and improvements.

(excuse my spelling, Internet Explorer blah)

[Lohman446]

I have no doubt there are issues with any form and weighting a test properly seems to be an art form in itself. I just felt that it is important to point out that efficiency is a consideration.

I found in college that most my classes were not about knowledge but about testing to see if you would do the work or not, even if it was boring. I disdained it at the time. Come to find out in life its how most jobs are :(

[Hilltop Customs]

Thats why I'm hoping to work for a couple years, while designing/building up some IP. Then after I have built up some capital(yea I can dream...money disappears quick when its in my pockets) start up a freelance product development and implementation group.

I have a few engineers/art/business major friends that Ive discussed this with, and they are very interested. None of us want to be forced to work for someone else, we would much rather work with each other.

check out IDEO.com .....that is my ideal situation, but theres no way in hell I'm going through more school(they only even start to consider you during/after grad school). I would consider more schooling if it was more directly related to what I want to do, but undergrad has ruined education for me. Between curriculum and professors, I'm too disappointed to continue.

I love learning....I hate school

Oh and that test I was ranting about, it wasnt hard at all....if I had another 30 min, I would have scored ~95%. There were only 2 questions I was unsure of and they were only worth 6%(ones I had to go back to answer)

[Spider-TW]

You might try a different school. It can be a hard move, but good professors are hard to find. A good one can make things easy and actually interesting. I am still ticked (over 20 years!) about how I was shorted by worthless professors in two of my core classes in my favorite subject. I had more complicated classes with TAs that taught better than those two classes were taught. I considered changing my focus a couple of times after having professors that were so easy and interesting that the class just felt routine but I felt like I learned the material.

[SCpoloRicker]

My lawn.

Get off of it.

[Hilltop Customs]

You might try a different school. It can be a hard move, but good professors are hard to find. A good one can make things easy and actually interesting. I am still ticked (over 20 years!) about how I was shorted by worthless professors in two of my core classes in my favorite subject. I had more complicated classes with TAs that taught better than those two classes were taught. I considered changing my focus a couple of times after having professors that were so easy and interesting that the class just felt routine but I felt like I learned the material.

2 months to graduation, kind of late to change schools :cool:


I agree, good professors can make difficult subjects easy to understand....but bad professors can make simple subject impossible to understand, or they just provide bad information. Good professors make you want to learn, bad professors make you hate even thinking about going to their classes.

[Spider-TW]

2 months to graduation, kind of late to change schools :cool:


I agree, good professors can make difficult subjects easy to understand....but bad professors can make simple subject impossible to understand, or they just provide bad information. Good professors make you want to learn, bad professors make you hate even thinking about going to their classes.
There you go...post graduation is a perfect time to change schools :p

[teufelhunden]

might not get infinite time in life, but you can devote more time to what is pertinent to you.....


Not really. I just came out of a tax season that required 100 hour weeks to get returns done for high value investment partnerships (hedge funds, give or take)... there was a definite time limit (had to be done by 11:59 PM 10/15), efficiency was absolutely key (information for some of the returns was coming in as late as 10/12), and like it or not, I had to do it.

Sounds not dissimilar to your test, eh?



and that doesnt change the fact that giving/grading on a test which is not completable in the time frame is counterproductive. Kind of like a boss giving you a project which has no chance at being completed in the given time frame, then shortening it even more.

I've had crappy profs before, this one takes the cake thats why I felt the need to rant.

If you know it's not completable (please tell me you know how to take a test and size it up beforehand) then given your initial description it would seem you need to work on your testing strategy. Do the problems first if it looks long. They're worth more, you can always guess multiple choice if you have a time problem or quick BS some short answers and hope for some partial credit. Problems, not so much.



Yes. And how many jobs throw you out of a plane, and have you determine the velocity of a ball on a car while in movement around a corner on a tuesday.

IMO 50% of college test are not a test of what you understand as it is a teachers personal hurtle. I cannot tell you how many classes I crammed for test just to loose all of the information the day after. You get your real education after you get out of college.

The first part is asinine, if you feel that way about the subject you should reevaluate your career/major choices.

Your experience is likely pretty common, but if you're not just cramming and actually learning (doing the work and putting in the study time as required, not just for the test) you come out learning. And yeah, I know, sucks, I had my share of classes where I studied for the test and forgot it 4 seconds after I handed it in, but if you're taking major or other relevant courses it pays for you to learn it in school. I'm of the opinion that you learn how to apply a lot of the book knowledge you acquired in school when on the job, but to totally discount going to school other than for the degree is also foolish.

[maxama10]

My lawn.

Get off of it.


Fail troll is fail...

[Hilltop Customs]

Not really. I just came out of a tax season that required 100 hour weeks to get returns done for high value investment partnerships (hedge funds, give or take)... there was a definite time limit (had to be done by 11:59 PM 10/15), efficiency was absolutely key (information for some of the returns was coming in as late as 10/12), and like it or not, I had to do it.

Sounds not dissimilar to your test, eh?


If you know it's not completable (please tell me you know how to take a test and size it up beforehand) then given your initial description it would seem you need to work on your testing strategy. Do the problems first if it looks long. They're worth more, you can always guess multiple choice if you have a time problem or quick BS some short answers and hope for some partial credit. Problems, not so much.

Your experience is likely pretty common, but if you're not just cramming and actually learning (doing the work and putting in the study time as required, not just for the test) you come out learning. And yeah, I know, sucks, I had my share of classes where I studied for the test and forgot it 4 seconds after I handed it in, but if you're taking major or other relevant courses it pays for you to learn it in school. I'm of the opinion that you learn how to apply a lot of the book knowledge you acquired in school when on the job, but to totally discount going to school other than for the degree is also foolish.

Your first description is still really dissimilar to the test, efficiency was key, but the real determinate was still accuracy correct? Even if you had to put in 100 hour weeks, if it was required more time could be devoted to the returns by spreading the work over more people. Now if they expected you to accomplish that same amount of work in an 80 hour week....that would be a more similar situation. Thats pushing it past efficiency to a point of disregard for accuracy.

I know how to take a test, dont waste time with what you dont know until you know you have time to waste.....common sense. Hell, I use pen because it is faster to draw a line through a mistake than it is to erase. This test was not hard, it was too long.....plain and simple. It would be a completely different story if someone finished before time was called, but asking around today, some people didnt even get to start on the last question.

I know the material, I've done all the work for my groups labs, so I know how to develop the simulation/models by heart. The studying was just to prepare for the class based questions, which were a hell of a lot easier than I expected. BTW her classes consist of her showing a transparency and filling in a couple words per slide...thats why I've stopped attending, have too many projects to work on anyhow.

I'm interested to see the scores for this, because she has told us she wont give out any curve points at all.

[Lohman446]

Your first description is still really dissimilar to the test, efficiency was key, but the real determinate was still accuracy correct? Even if you had to put in 100 hour weeks, if it was required more time could be devoted to the returns by spreading the work over more people. Now if they expected you to accomplish that same amount of work in an 80 hour week....that would be a more similar situation. Thats pushing it past efficiency to a point of disregard for accuracy.
.

Its not really.

First off a test where noone completes it allows you to measure where everyone is at. If 50% of the people complete it it only tells you which 50% could but does not seperate them.

In the tax scenario both accuracy and efficiency are key, the same as a test. The company *could* hire more people to be more efficient, or they *could* hire a tax attorney to fix my mistakes and allow me less accuracy. At least in the example.

Frankly as an employer I expect a high degree of efficiency and a high degree of accuracy. If you cannot give me both one is no good. I cannot simply hire more people to get the same amount of work done, I do have to show a profit somewhere.

Not to say this test itself was fair, I did not take it. But some tests are intentionally designed to be unfinishable and are measuring a valid consideration when doing so.

[teufelhunden]

Your first description is still really dissimilar to the test, efficiency was key, but the real determinate was still accuracy correct? Even if you had to put in 100 hour weeks, if it was required more time could be devoted to the returns by spreading the work over more people. Now if they expected you to accomplish that same amount of work in an 80 hour week....that would be a more similar situation. Thats pushing it past efficiency to a point of disregard for accuracy.

I know how to take a test, dont waste time with what you dont know until you know you have time to waste.....common sense. Hell, I use pen because it is faster to draw a line through a mistake than it is to erase. This test was not hard, it was too long.....plain and simple. It would be a completely different story if someone finished before time was called, but asking around today, some people didnt even get to start on the last question.

I know the material, I've done all the work for my groups labs, so I know how to develop the simulation/models by heart. The studying was just to prepare for the class based questions, which were a hell of a lot easier than I expected. BTW her classes consist of her showing a transparency and filling in a couple words per slide...thats why I've stopped attending, have too many projects to work on anyhow.

I'm interested to see the scores for this, because she has told us she wont give out any curve points at all.

In my situation, the returns had to be both accurate and timely. IRS penalties for failing on either are pretty steep, given the specifics of the entities. And unfortunately, due to some heinous planning on the client's end, there weren't competent people available (which is why I was there in the first place, but I really can't go into it), so we had to make due with what we had. And I suppose I could've spent more time at the client's working on the returns, but that would have led a definite decrease in accuracy which would have, in turn, lead to a decrease in efficiency (returns take longer to review and more time to correct). So it is a fairly similar situation; insane amount of work to be done, finite time. Not trying to look like superman or whatever, but trying to illustrate that these situations due occur in the real world, more frequently than you think. You may well run into them when you're in the workforce; a client wants the plans or specs in 12 hours but there's 15 hours worth of work to be done and you're the only one available to do it, or something. Not in your field, so I can't really speak on it.


You said you didn't get to finish half a problem worth 25% of the total grade, no? Sounds like a problem that should've received attention up front.

I agree with Lohman; the partners at my firm expect our work to be of the highest quality we are capable of, given our varying levels of experience, and it needs to be done in a timely manner (which sometimes are very absurd deadlines, but such is life I guess).


In the end, it's only a test; at worst, you fail the class and have to retake it, or get a poor grade and choose to retake it. Yeah, if it's bad enough it may push back your graduation, but you're going to be working for 84 years after you graduate, what's another 4 months, ya know?

[Hilltop Customs]

oh I'm not planning on failing the class, this just means I'll have to try on the final....I was hoping to go into the final not caring, because its my only final, oh well.

I guess the main reason I made a huge deal about it is one of the concepts we go over in the class is the inconsistency of 100% utilization of resources, and then for our test the time is fully utilized. With 100% utilization, something as trivial as waiting for a professor to answer a question can produce large swings in throughput(this case # of questions completed, and points gained).

Its funny when you can use answers to questions on the test, to argue against the design of test itself.

[Lohman446]

oh I'm not planning on failing the class, this just means I'll have to try on the final....I was hoping to go into the final not caring, because its my only final, oh well.

I guess the main reason I made a huge deal about it is one of the concepts we go over in the class is the inconsistency of 100% utilization of resources, and then for our test the time is fully utilized. With 100% utilization, something as trivial as waiting for a professor to answer a question can produce large swings in throughput(this case # of questions completed, and points gained).

Its funny when you can use answers to questions on the test, to argue against the design of test itself.

I don't mean to keep arguing with you, and in fact I am inclined to agree with you. In the past you have always been reasonable, and you obviously have direct experience with the test that I do not.

That being said, ask anyone in large companies, or dealing with customers, how long getting an answer to a simple question can take. I often call a customer for a simple question and wait hours to get an answer. Hours that I have a vested interest in maintaining productivity.

[Chris Nearchos]

one thing i dont get is testing to begin with. just because you can show your knowledge on paper doesnt mean a thing about the real world.....and vice versa. That is deffintly something i have learned being around all the high end nerds in my feild of study. they can add 2 and 2 on paper.....but you tell them to do it with their hands.....they fail from the start.

so I dont think it is right at all to just test what someone can do on paper.


now the other thing that burns my butt about test is having a professor teach you "easy" and then go and test you "hard ball". I believe that one should only be tested on what and how they were taught in that class. you want to grade hard/rough then teach it hard. and vise versa. that way the test are fair and equal on level between the teaching and testing.


but back to the main topic of this thread. I had one professor say something to me once that makes perfect sence about testing.

"A professor must be able to take his/her test in half of the alloted time for the test. If they cant, then the test is too long or too difficult and needs to be fixed"

just my two cents on the subject,
-Chris

[p8ntbal4me]

I am taking a Physics I class right now.

My teacher is a really smart guy,.. which,.. tends to be our classes problem.

Not to mention he has the second STRONGEST accent I have ever heard in my life. So understanding him is VERY difficult.

I did a take home test, which took me 3 hours to complete.

He gave me an F.

After going over all my answers in class,... they were all RIGHT!

I brought it to his attention,.. and he said "you didnt note what your substitutions were,.. so I take a few point away from each mistake."

It took the following statement to get him to bring my grade back to a B+: "You told us you didnt care which formula or method we used as long as we knew what we were doing. Its obvious by the notation of the correct answers on my test that I knew what I was doing. I have to sit in the back of this class with the lights dimmed each night after working a full days worth of work and listen to your broken english just like everyone else does..... its pretty obvious you know what your doing and its pretty obvious I can learn from you. So why dont you put my grade back to where it was and not give me a reason to make an appointment with the Dean about what you gave to the entire class for instructions prior to taking this class with you."

I got a notice in the mail from the school saying I was failing my class this week.
Even after I checked all my grades and they calcualte me as a B+ student :rolleyes:

I dont like argueing with my teachers,.... but sometimes,.. there is one or 2 that need to pushed a little bit to see how badly they are hurting the students more than helping them.

~ P8nt

[Hilltop Customs]

"A professor must be able to take his/her test in half of the alloted time for the test. If they cant, then the test is too long or too difficult and needs to be fixed"


thats the exact same way I think on it too.....well I'd think the professor should be able to take the test in 1/4th the time at most since they have years of experience on the specific subject.

p8nt: funny you mention accents, combined a bad accent with bad handwritting and I dont even understand how anyone is supposed to learn anything from gibberish and scribbles. Most of the time you can get used to an accent over time, but I've had a few profs that I simplely couldnt learn from because I couldnt understand a word they were saying. Good to hear you stood up to your professor about the grade, and I'm glad it worked out for you. I'm still waiting to get my score back to figure out what is going to be my course of action.

I'll probably be ranting in here again, my CAD/CAM professor has taken us on a 3 week long tangent into matrices.....I've now stopped attending that class since it provides no information about CAD/CAM.(the labs are mandatory, and the only place we learn anything worthwhile) :rolleyes: