New Frame - Preorder inquiry

[Pneumagger]

Yes this is AO. Yes this a part preorder interest thread. Yes, I'm well aware of the past as well as most of you are.
Having said that, I think we can all agree that a preorder can be run smoothly so I'm bringing this thread into existence as early as possible.
Possibly a little too early, but it's early enough that AO can provide input and feedback before ANYTHING is set in stone.
I'm going to lay it all out there and this either going to happen or it isn't. No fiascos, no wonderment, no ambiguity.

The concept is a frame that allows the mag to be lighter, tighter, and (of course) sexier.
If there exists Automags, Minimags, and Micromags... this thing ought to be called the NanoMag.
How? The Automag rail. It isn't needed. it's just another part that needs to be bought, installed and jazzed up for a killer mag.
Below is a model of the frame. Keep in mind. This if model 0.1 - it's the 'concept' only. It is shown with an actual Xvlave body and reg housing as well as a ULE body.
While it is a working dimensionally accurate model, there is room for AO's input. There are already several changes I've discussed that are going into the revised model.
While looking at it keep in mind that the frame houses the sear assembly and will fit AGD bodies and valves (not including the RT Classic series) as well as Logic scythe-Style Triggers.

Changes already being cosidered:
Add front tapped hole for pneumag enthusists.
Mill a channel in the top of the frame to hide an LPR hose.
intelliframe-like mounting plate for customizations
Elongate the body screw hole countersink to allow classic/minimag bodies
Take some meat out to make it as light as economically possible.
??? Make suggestions AO... now is the time ???

Without further waiting, here are some of the early renders... you can probably guess who I'll be working with on this: :D

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/jrm33/UMF_V3.jpg

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/jrm33/UMF_V3_mag.jpg

[Pneumagger]

Now for the financial details:

WE are putting this preorder together. Not ME... Not Logic... US! I can provide the models and with our input we can make it happen.
I will be 110% honest all along the way to provide acurate information - and the reality of this depends on AO honesty as well. With honest interest and information, we can do it.
I am going to facilitate this at little (or no) profit. Keep in mind, if we can't get ~50 people this MAY NOT be cheap.
We will not have an "exact" price until a final production model is provided to the shop. However, no preorders will be taken until an exact price is determined.
Given the increased complexity of this frame vs the UMF, count on it being at least the same price or more, even with the required amount of preorders.
(Also remember... you don't need a new rail for your new frame too ;))

#1) Gauge preorder interest
#2) Agree on a final production model
#3) Appoint a treasurer. Treasurer collects a (refundable) payment.
#4) Once the minimum required number of paid preorders is reached, every person is contacted requesting consent to send that money to the shop.
(at this point, everything is nonrefundable and it's the waiting game)

We could also do something like a 50% nonrefundable deposit and then the treasurer fronts the other 50%.
When the frames come in, you payoff your balance to recieve the frame. This way there is shared limited risk.
If you don't have the balance, your preorder is lost and the frame is sold (discounted) in the BST.

THE MORE HONESTLY YOU VOTE YOUR WILLINGESS PRICE TO PAY...
THE MORE ACCURATE WE CAN DETERMINE A MINIMUM PREORDER QUANTITY!!!
IF WE SURPASS THE MINIMUM QUANTITY, IT WILL OF COURSE BE CHEAPER.
:)

[punkrex]

cool concept -- what about a vert asa instead of the angle?

[Rudz]

i love the angle, id love for it to be easilly "pmueabble" if thats a word, lol, i bet this things tiny with a classic sized body, would we be able tp pump mill this frame? i think if it was pump milled, that slot could double at the airline slot for pnue conversions, just saying, kill 2 birds with 1 stone

[Toll]

I love the idea and design and yet I am dirt poor.

That would really make a ridiculously light mag

[lasrsktr]

I love this concept!

I for one would like to see a more rounded off rear of the frame...

One of the Draw back I have found to most of the logic designed frames is the 2x4 block feel of them when compared to a stock AGD and even the Chimera in comparison.


but I love the concept and I would be down for it.... but lets leave the LPR tap as an option and not a mandatory addition because it will kill(in some eyes) the smooth look of the proposed design.

There are plenty of people who can Mill and tap into a 15* asa type fitting for the service to be easy enough to perform.

[Rudz]

i figure your getting an asa. "rail" and frame all together, so id be willing to pay up to 150-200 if they came annodized with hardware, such as grips and screws and what not., btw i just realized we wouldnt be able to pump this frame :cry: yeah im slow sometimes :tard: , but it would still make an awesome pnue frame, and i bet it would look just beautiful

[Rudz]

I love this concept!

I for one would like to see a more rounded off rear of the frame...

One of the Draw back I have found to most of the logic designed frames is the 2x4 block feel of them when compared to a stock AGD and even the Chimera in comparison.


but I love the concept and I would be down for it.... but lets leave the LPR tap as an option and not a mandatory addition because it will kill(in some eyes) the smooth look of the proposed design.

There are plenty of people who can Mill and tap into a 15* asa type fitting for the service to be easy enough to perform.

i like the hump on the rear too, id love to the the inside of the frame more uled, but leave the intelliframe bracket for conversions, and how about slotting the trigger guard?

[lasrsktr]

i like the hump on the rear too, id love to the the inside of the frame more uled, but leave the intelliframe bracket for conversions, and how about slotting the trigger guard?


wasn't talking about the hump as that feels good...

I am talking about the width of the frame... it feels like a block of wood.......

[mag79]

looks good, I'm in

[Ruler_Mark]

What would be hot is if it was all already milled and tapped to run a cyberrave pnue kit.

[flyingpootang]

Looks like one night a UMF frame got blind stinking drunk, hooked up with a Ion frame and 9 months later had a baby..... :tard:

1. I would start with separating the meat between the ASA and the trigger guard.
2. Redesign the trigger guard. I like the ego frames.
3. Go with a 90 degree simular to a G7.
4. Go with ego or angel grips.
5. Go with a wave style trigger
6. Mill out the top of the frame to except a MPA-3/lpr hose/msv-2
7. keep the dove tail milling on the bottom of the frame.

[geekwarrior]

how does the sear sit in there?

and for design, I always like the tail end of the dallara rail, if you can somehow mill that in...

good stuff :cheers:

/nvm, I see it in the other pics....

[Rudz]

the rear of the frame can be dressed up, take a look at the ego frames, the trigger guard is kinda blocky, but its an awesome idea

[Pneumagger]

wasn't talking about the hump as that feels good...
I am talking about the width of the frame... it feels like a block of wood.......

I hear ya. The logic frames are nearly 3/4" wied top to bottom as are most AGD frames.
But the originals are chamfered and the more recent ones only have a modest filet.
I can try rounding off the back edge some more.
The reason I chose the UMF is the enourmous trigger gaurd is tits.

We can even choose an entirely differnt frame shape too. Airwalk, Angel-esque, i-frame... this is just a concept preorder thread.


I figure your getting an asa. "rail" and frame all together, so id be willing to pay up to 150-200 if they came annodized with hardware, such as grips and screws and what not., btw i just realized we wouldnt be able to pump this frame yeah im slow sometimes , but it would still make an awesome pnue frame, and i bet it would look just beautiful
Dont be soo sad yet. Someone could always fabricate a pump arm that fits into the front ASA hole.
I've never made a pump, so I do not have the knowledge to do this on the stock frame.
It would have to be done custom on the frame afterwards.

A slotted trigger guard is fair game. I only left it out for the concept model because it's a cost-adder.
Just remember, more cutting = more tooling = more money.

---------------------------------------------------------------

To settle the "pneu-ready" discussions early...
There will NOT be a frame that simply accepts bolt on pneu parts. That skims a little too close to the whole patent debate.
However, there more than likely be a front tapped hole for an LPR and possible a small channel in the top to convey an LPR hose.
There will also be a generous solid tab/bracket inside to mount whatevery you guys want.
Think... you may have to mount the MPA vertically to strike the rear of the sear or you may have to mount the MPA creatively and stick the MSV really really low.
Remeber, with the sear sitting almost 3/4" lower in the frame (no more rail) and the body 3/4" more forward on the frame the valve is closer to your hands and away from your face.
The whole concept is light and tight... not somuch pneu-ready.

[sffudapparel]

I think if you took out the angled asa and just built a screw hole or two for any foregrip.
I think it'd be even better, because not all foregrips are asa threaded.

My .02. Great idea. Thanks for your creativity :cheers:

Ty

[MntlHazrd]

I would defnitely be interested in this and would hope i could have the money available for it if/when it goes into production. id like to keep the grip angle but i would like for there to be a way to make the asa modular for the differing opinions of vert of 15*

[Pneumagger]

Looks like one night a UMF frame got blind stinking drunk, hooked up with a Ion frame and 9 months later had a baby..... :tard:

1. I would start with separating the meat between the ASA and the trigger guard.
2. Redesign the trigger guard. I like the ego frames.
3. Go with a 90 degree simular to a G7.
4. Go with ego or angel grips.
5. Go with a wave style trigger
6. Mill out the top of the frame to except a MPA-3/lpr hose/msv-2
7. keep the dove tail milling on the bottom of the frame.
I can see where your're coming from with the ion statement. But that's a matter of preference.
Personally, I LOVE the punisher(?) (DW?) ion frames.

1) Why separate the ASA and the gaurd (just playing devil's advocate here ;)) when the concept is smaller? More length simply ='s more weight/cost.
Any examples of what you mean by "

2)the trigger guard can be redesigned, but the ASA makes up a significant portion of the gaurd... so you'll be limited somewhat.

3/4) While I like the Angel Vert and 45* frames alot (I made the airwalk with the WDP 45*), why on earth would you go through the trouble of elimining the rail and getting rid of height... only to add MORE height/weight in the grip style?
I could see moving to an EGO shaped frame or DM. I don;t own an ego so getting proper dimensions could get tricky. Whatever grip style gets used will obviously get an appropriate grip panel pattern.

5) Gotcha on the trigger... the Logic scythe-style trigger looks like this:

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/jrm33/CAD%20Stuff/UEMF%20V2_0/th_Noidbracket.jpg (http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/jrm33/CAD%20Stuff/UEMF%20V2_0/Noidbracket.jpg) http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/jrm33/CAD%20Stuff/UEMF%20V2_0/th_unf_assy-1.jpg (http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/jrm33/CAD%20Stuff/UEMF%20V2_0/unf_assy-1.jpg)

6) You cannot simply "mill out the top" for the MPA if the sear needs to sit and index there. There needs to be a specified gap for the sear to stay centered and the walls must hold the pin.
Plus, the sear is sitting there anyways so the MPA will have to under the sear. Just install stuff from the side.

[Toll]

I have an ego frame thats getting no love if you want it to get measurements/etc (no charge ofcourse)

[Pneumagger]

I have an ego frame thats getting no love if you want it to get measurements/etc (no charge ofcourse)
I'll see if I can't get someone in the PBN CAD thread to send me a prebuilt CAD file.
Then I only import the top half of this frame - probably like an hour's worht of work :cool:

[grEnAlEins]

i love the angle, id love for it to be easilly "pmueabble" if thats a word, lol, i bet this things tiny with a classic sized body
QFT! With the angle like that and pneumatic friendly features I'd probably go in, depending on when this is really gonna happen.

[going_home]

Looks to me like you might need to modify the sear also.
If you are losing 3/8" in height of where the sear pin is on AM/MM rails.....
dropping the axis point down might cause problems ?
Seems like the trigger rod would have to attach to the sear at a higher point then a stock sear
to compensate for the sears pivot point being lower.

:confused:

[punkncat]

Is it just me, or is this frame not long enough to allow the zlock?

I feel that is a rather important issue to overlook. Not only does it not allow the reg to unscrew off the valve, but also as a "safety" of sorts to help keep the valve from shooting out back in the case the field strip screw breaks.
The rear end could be made out like a nifty snatch grip to give it the tail it would need to incorporate that feature.

A vert asa offering would be nice as well.

[warbeak2099]

It should without a doubt come with holes drilled and tapped for an actuator.

But yea, 150-200 is fair.

[Pneumagger]

It should without a doubt come with holes drilled and tapped for an actuator.

But yea, 150-200 is fair.
Why would you pretap the actuator holes? The threads into the actuator should be in time with the threads on the frame.
That way you rely on shear bolt strength to hold the actuator instead of thread shear (strips holes).

[PsychoBaller]

Integrated ASA aye? pretty nifty.

Aren't you missing a rail in that last pic though, in the initial post? or is this frame gonna eliminate the need for a rail?

[MANN]

Is it just me, or is this frame not long enough to allow the zlock?

I feel that is a rather important issue to overlook. Not only does it not allow the reg to unscrew off the valve, but also as a "safety" of sorts to help keep the valve from shooting out back in the case the field strip screw breaks.


I personally have never heard of the thumb screw shearing off while the mag is in use and shooting the valve out the back.

Just FYI Xmags have straight zlocks.

As for the reg unscrewing....maybe. IMO I would think it would be similar to any screw in reg. Yes it can unscrew, but it is unlikly, and the person should pay attention while adjusting the reg.

I have taken out the pins before on micromags as they are not milled loose enough most of the time.

[Pneumagger]

Is it just me, or is this frame not long enough to allow the zlock?

I feel that is a rather important issue to overlook. Not only does it not allow the reg to unscrew off the valve, but also as a "safety" of sorts to help keep the valve from shooting out back in the case the field strip screw breaks.
The rear end could be made out like a nifty snatch grip to give it the tail it would need to incorporate that feature.

A vert asa offering would be nice as well.
The concept model was built entirely in the footprint of the UMF. It is not long enough to allow the locking pin to function.
One of the slated changes is to streamline the back or add a snatch grip. Either way, it will need extended and the zlock will be incorporated. ;)

I did the model on my work PC using Pro-e. I only have Solidworks at home.
So changed can only be made when I'm on my work PC.


Looks to me like you might need to modify the sear also.
If you are losing 3/8" in height of where the sear pin is on AM/MM rails.....
dropping the axis point down might cause problems ?
Seems like the trigger rod would have to attach to the sear at a higher point then a stock sear
to compensate for the sears pivot point being lower.
Look into the trigger guard. Notice how low the trigger rod slot goes. ;)
Regardless, the rod length will still need adjusted.

Alternatively, the trigger rod channel could remain the same and the sear leg cut in half or so and shortened.

[BigTrucker]

I like it. As with most AGD items it should be made to fit all bodies. The problem that i see is where would you press in the twist lock pin for the old school bodies???

[MANN]

I like it. As with most AGD items it should be made to fit all bodies. The problem that i see is where would you press in the twist lock pin for the old school bodies???

old school bodies do not work with any rt pro/ emag lenght rails.

[Toll]

Imo : Design to the budget.

The cheaper they are the more likely people are going to pick one up rather than convince themselves to invest.


Personally my paintball budget has plummeted and I like the idea this frame puts forth.

[paintball72]

im digging this, id love a light and tight mag. i might just have to make the jump and buy an x-valve to go with this thing. but id be willing to go 200-250 because id like more features. im definately in if this is done in reasonable time frame (a year or so) not sure how long these things actually take

[RogueFactor]

old school bodies do not work with any rt pro/ emag lenght rails.
Thats not true. E-mags and RT Pros used to all come with the old school stainless bodies.

[Rudz]

you could use the sfl emag trick and instead of using the z lock, u can use a set screw as a secondary safety feature to keep the valve from coming out, and yes i have heard of thumbscrews shearing, on a couple occasions, i say run with the ego frame idea and 15* integrated asa, love the dovetail mount too, missed that before

[indeed]

I want in on this. I think the trigger looks like my M/T Force Angel. If it had more spacing between the asa and the frame that would rock, I like the feel of a rt pro length rail. Plus a snatch grip that's got the z lock integrated in it.

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/1470/dsc00628yp0.jpg

[going_home]

Looking at the drawings again it looks to me like the safety would be in the way of the sear functioning properly. Just saying.

[MANN]

Thats not true. E-mags and RT Pros used to all come with the old school stainless bodies.

yes, but with the round bottom and not the oval. IMO old school is the am/mm bodies.

[Pneumagger]

Ok, just to recap suggestions and things to include on the first revision.
Items with a dolla sign next to them indicate this change will require an inrease in machine time.

Slotted trigger gaurd ($)
Ego shaped grip and panels
longer sleeker rear that can use the z-slot pin.
Make things a bit lighter
Mounting tab/brackets.
Drill/Tap the front LPR hole ($)
include a top slot for an LPR hose
Model the sear/trigger interaction.

Keep in mind people, with non-ATC CNC machining the cost is mostly affected by part changes and tool changes.
Converting CAD to code wont be all that different, nor will initial setup or CNC run time.
So part that can be machined from 3 sides requires less operator time than a part requiring 4 sides.
And a part that uses 4 tools versus 4 tools and 3 extra special cutters requires downtime and operator to change those bits out.
Aside from that, a CNC machine doesn't care if it's carving stick figures or the mona lisa... it's quick and cheap as long the machine is running.
Right now, with all the proposed changes, we're going to need 7 positions and tool changes for different size holes and radii and dovetails and threads.

Honestly, I think if we get rid of the dovetail, trigger guard slot, and LPR input we can save a good amount.
That saves us TWO positions because we wont need cuts from the bottom or front. Then I'll just drill/tap the bottom and LPR holes on my manual mill at home.
People who want the slots and dovetails... maybe I can look into what tooling the dovetails will require... as slotting and dovetails can be done manually.

[Spider-TW]

Looking at the drawings again it looks to me like the safety would be in the way of the sear functioning properly. Just saying.
Looks close alright, but maybe the safety can lock the sear as well. Either way, you might need to stipulate that the frame is not for the old style sears with the big catch if they don't fit.

I'll have to vote for one. This and warpedmephisto's CF body would be impressive. It's my favorite configuration; loader, bottle, mag valve, and something to hold it by.

This frame will need a shorter field strip screw (and frame screw)?

[Pneumagger]

This frame will need a shorter field strip screw (and frame screw)?
It will require a standard or low 10-32 socket head cap screw. Preferably stainless.
They are bout $.50/ea. Cheaper if you go with regular steel.

If it can be done, we'll be using the current flat head screw the recent UMFs use.

[Brewtt]

Without the rail in there you are lowering the sear assembly toward the trigger/guard/frame almost half an inch it looks like. This will change the sear/trigger geometry will it not? Have you considered this?

[Xmagterror]

COOL IDEA!!!!!! Milling the ASA on the front of the frame is going to be a pain if your not going to do it in 3D but its nothing that cant be done with the know how and a good machine!

ULE mill the hell out of it!

[splat15k]

I really like where this is going.

I must restate what has been suggested a few times before but has not received too much attention: Vert ASA option. Scratch that, Vert ASA standard.

I cannot speak for others of course, but I despise 15* ASA's. I could see spending 250-300 for this frame with a vert ASA, but I would probably pass on it if it had a 15*ASA

Side note: an 07/08 ego trigger guard style would melt faces!!!! :headbang:

[Hilltop Customs]

no pics are showing up for me in firefox....not even the little squares where pics would be :(
IE they show up though.

for pneumags this wont be a problem, but for standard mechanical mags the angles of the trigger rod will be changed if the activation point is kept at the stock location(top of the trigger). If the activation point on the trigger is lowered, it will make the trigger pull much harder(but shorter). For pneumags this wont make a difference since the ram would be used to activate the sear.

any ideas on how to mount pneumag internals in this? everything will be forced to mount lower since now the sear is in the top of the frame. This could cause some real problems with mounting the 3 way. I would consider mounting the ram vertically under the on/off portion of the sear....this would leave more space up high to mount the 3 way behind the trigger. It would also allow for the "arm" to be removed from the sear....once again giving more room to work with to mount the 3way. I wouldnt even think about removing materials till you are deadset on features.

What about, instead of an integrated asa, include an classic rail type extension on the front for mounting any type of asa/foregrip extension/whatever. Might not look as pretty, but gives more options. Just an idea.

Looks great. I've always wondered why no one has done this.

[snoopay700]

If it could be used on a classic i'd love it, cause all i have are twistlock mags.
Doh, i just realized that this is the type of frame i've been hoping for. I'd have to get a ULE body and cocker barrel, but i'd love it. I've been hoping for the rail to disappear for a while.

[Pneumagger]

Hilltop,
This is an Idea I've been kicking around for a long time. I'm going to get one made for sure.
With one-off CNC parts running $500+ I just figured, if one's going to get made why not just make as many as possible and do a preorder.
Costs less per frame and more people have unique frames.

For those worried about "new" sear position, there is not new positioning.
Every screw hole in the mag is based off the two rail screw holes. This was the rail's purpose... index everything relative to each other.
As long as the AGD sear pin is located in the same spatial separation to those two screw holes (the body and valve screw) the mag will function fine.
Only the trigger pin location has changed and it's already been addressed that the trigger is losing leverage. Yes, there will be a weight increase as well as a shorter pull.
However, With a reactive trigger, I see this being pretty sweet for bursts giving the sear that much leverage on the trigger :cool:

For the pneumag crowd, the ram will probably need to be mounted vertically.
As well as sitting higher to the mag body the frame also sits further back on the body. This shouldn't be much of an issue.
I'm not going to lie, this frame will be more difficult to convert because of the space needed for a manual 3way.
It'll probably be easier to make into an electro frame though because a soleoid can go anywhere.

[Hilltop Customs]

However, With a reactive trigger, I see this being pretty sweet for bursts giving the sear that much leverage on the trigger :cool:


good point, I didnt think about the reactivity being increased also. Should increase the difference between force pull force of and resetting force, making rt a lot more noticeable/effective at lower input pressures :cool:

[trevorjk]

here is an idea for tapping the ASA for an LPR conversion. instead of tapping the ASA. just mill a flat indent on where you would want it. and put some kind of jewel on it for your business logo, that way if some one wants it milled, they know exactly where it should go.

makes sense to me, let me know if i have to revise

[Hilltop Customs]

here is an idea for tapping the ASA for an LPR conversion. instead of tapping the ASA. just mill a flat indent on where you would want it. and put some kind of jewel on it for your business logo, that way if some one wants it milled, they know exactly where it should go.

makes sense to me, let me know if i have to revise

If your going through the trouble of a set up to mill a pocket(the indent) you might as well just drill and tap the hole, it wouldnt require much more machine time and produces a product that would require minimal customer effort for the pneu conversion. Although a jewel would look a lot nicer than a set screw head. At least that would be my thoughts on it.

For an e-frame that wouldnt require a LPR, I think a jewel on the front would be sexy.

Pneumagger any chance this could be made for a drop-in pneu internals? looks like you have a decent sized trigger slot in there....any chance it could be made a little wider for an msv2 to slide in and be pinched in place with a couple set-screws? Only problems I can think of offhand would be sear interference(should be avoidable) and the lower activation point on the trigger. IMO that would make this setup the first choice for pneu conversions.

[snoopay700]

Pneumagger any chance this could be made for a drop-in pneu internals? looks like you have a decent sized trigger slot in there....any chance it could be made a little wider for an msv2 to slide in and be pinched in place with a couple set-screws? Only problems I can think of offhand would be sear interference(should be avoidable) and the lower activation point on the trigger. IMO that would make this setup the first choice for pneu conversions.
That's what i would do with it. I'd have to drop a little more on parts and a body, but if i had a job at the time i would totally be on board for this frame, and come next quarter (providing i can get enough money to pay off this quarter) i will definitely make it so i have time for a job, so if you start taking preorders in december i would be on board.

[Hilltop Customs]

oh and just for a further thought about drop in pneu setup.....use the msv-2(with removed lever arm) behind the trigger and have a hole machined from the top, correct diameter for the mpa-3 piston to drop in directly below the on/off of the sear. A second smaller concentric air fitting threaded hole out the bottom. aka machined in ram for opperating the on/off.

Just throwing that out there.....its something I was tossing around making before I got deeper into the whole marker train of thought.

drop in msv2, tighten 2 set screws, and attach air fittings/lpr. Hard to beat that for a switch from mechanical to pneu.

actually I'd even look at making an msv-2 imitation 3 way. either that or machine the height of it down so you can located it higher on the trigger(going to be hard to do since the sear will be in the way.

I'm not trying to say to do this, but just thought it would be helpful if your thinking about going wild with it. anyway I'll shut up and let the thread continue :D

[snoopay700]

oh and just for a further thought about drop in pneu setup.....use the msv-2(with removed lever arm) behind the trigger and have a hole machined from the top, correct diameter for the mpa-3 piston to drop in directly below the on/off of the sear. A second smaller concentric air fitting threaded hole out the bottom. aka machined in ram for opperating the on/off.

Just throwing that out there.....its something I was tossing around making before I got deeper into the whole marker train of thought.

drop in msv2, tighten 2 set screws, and attach air fittings/lpr. Hard to beat that for a switch from mechanical to pneu.

actually I'd even look at making an msv-2 imitation 3 way. either that or machine the height of it down so you can located it higher on the trigger(going to be hard to do since the sear will be in the way.

I'm not trying to say to do this, but just thought it would be helpful if your thinking about going wild with it. anyway I'll shut up and let the thread continue :D
Exactly, with your influence i won't be able to afford it. :mad:

Although i may not be able to thanks to college anyway. :(

[Pneumagger]

Page 1:
To settle the "pneu-ready" discussions early...
There will NOT be a frame that simply accepts bolt on pneu parts. That skims a little too close to the whole patent debate.
However, there more than likely be a front tapped hole for an LPR and possible a small channel in the top to convey an LPR hose.
There will also be a generous solid tab/bracket inside to mount whatever you guys want.


I'm not saying it can't be done, but it steps on a few people's toes.
I'm sure I'll end up modeling a drop-in frame just to see how everything could fit.
Perhaps I could do a little secondary machining in my shop when the frames come in for a few that want it. ;)

On a side note, in the Gforce frame I'm holding there's a nice sqaure ram housing. Does anyone who makes that particular component? :D
I'm thinking I can move the frame back and use a vert grip. Then a 9V, noid, and ram would EASILY fit in the frame. Just thinking.

Hilltop, you can cut about 1/3 the height off the MSV1, I did it in a mag and the difference wasn't worth the effort.

[grEnAlEins]

Perhaps I could do a little secondary machining in my shop when the frames come in for a few that want it. ;)
:hail:

[jade_monkey07]

Does anyone know who makes that particular component?


If my fixed version of your question is correct then the answer is Garf himself made it. he was also going to design a new 3 way but chose to use the msv instead

[Hilltop Customs]

Pneumagger: lmk if you want any of this deleted, I'm just throwing this out there to give some ideas to anyone that happens to be looking. I'd have no problem taking it out of your thread.



Exactly, with your influence i won't be able to afford it. :mad:

Although i may not be able to thanks to college anyway. :(

Actually that would be about as cheap as you can make it. Only 3 additional tapped holes, 1 ~3/8 drilled hole and a slightly larger milled channel behind the trigger. The internal features of the ram(a honed hole with a fitting on the end) would be machined in the frame(no adjustment, or placement issues because its permanent). There would be no additional material setups, and just 4 additional tools on the top(2 drills,hone, and tap), and maybe a smaller endmill for the interal profile grip hole.

Best part is it would still allow a noid similar to the emags be used since that large type of noid is located towards the front of the gun in the frame.....it would also allows enough room for EP noid setup. Plenty of room for something like a t-board.

Even using the in frame sear setup, there should be plenty of room for any upgrade(pneu,EP,big emag noid) option for the mag. I would go as far to include a mounting point for the emag noid(not as hard as it sounds).

I was really liking this design, as it allowed simple configuration for almost any firing option available for the mag. I was going to build my EP with the vertical ram setup, but it was too easy to mount it in the frame as is. But if I was ever to make my own frame, thats how it would be setup.



Page 1:

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it steps on a few people's toes.
I'm sure I'll end up modeling a drop-in frame just to see how everything could fit.
Perhaps I could do a little secondary machining in my shop when the frames come in for a few that want it. ;)

On a side note, in the Gforce frame I'm holding there's a nice sqaure ram housing. Does anyone who makes that particular component? :D
I'm thinking I can move the frame back and use a vert grip. Then a 9V, noid, and ram would EASILY fit in the frame. Just thinking.

Hilltop, you can cut about 1/3 the height off the MSV1, I did it in a mag and the difference wasn't worth the effort.

I was thinking broader than just a pneu upgrade trigger....but I guess thats obvious in the above description :D

Also I'd talk to a patent attorney, as something like that wouldnt directly force a customer toward one path of upgrade, so it may not fall under infringement on one specific patent. Honestly dont know about that, but I would ask if I was making a frame ;)


Placing the msv1 closer to the pivot point on a trigger would definitely have an impact as it is a lever arm. If I were to build a frame, I would want the 3 way placed high as possible; within reason, on the trigger to reduce the required forces; forces can always be increased by adding magnets or springs, but never reduced. This also leaves trigger length adjustable by set screws. With the sear pivot integrated into the frame and basically being in the way, the 3way has to be placed lower....placing it lower limits the ability to lower the forces for activation.....this is why I mentioned cutting it down.

1/3 off the height of the msv-2 comes straight off the vent side right?(other side cant be cut down too much because of the threads...vent side just has the vent and a bunch of material).....I should cut mine down while I'm at it.....make for one sick single trigger pneu setup.... :D

anyone have a beat up single trigger aluminum automag frame they no longer need? shoot me a pm (evilgrin) :D :rofl:

[longi]

How about milling the top of the frame just wide enough to able to slot in an MSV-1 into the top of the frame so as the MSV-1 on/off makes contact with the rear of the curved
part of the trigger shoe by the safety switch, ala Gforce styley. That way we can make a sear extender like the Gforce type allowing us to lower the lpr input pressure to gain higher rates of fire, or am I being a bad boy?

[Pneumagger]

there is no rail. The actual sear occupies that space.
Still, if you were to mount the MSV-1 Even lower than the sear your MSV-1 would be contacting the bottom 25% of the trigger.
There's a reason most every pneumag switched away from usin the MSV-1 in the middle of the trigger and this would be an even heavier trigger.
The reason the Gforce frame works well with an MSV1 is because the 3way can use the top 10% of the trigger.

[longi]

there is no rail. The actual sear occupies that space.
Still, if you were to mount the MSV-1 Even lower than the sear your MSV-1 would be contacting the bottom 25% of the trigger.
There's a reason most every pneumag switched away from usin the MSV-1 in the middle of the trigger and this would be an even heavier trigger.
The reason the Gforce frame works well with an MSV1 is because the 3way can use the top 10% of the trigger.

Iif you look into the top of the frame you can see a ledge, i've already checked it out. The MSV-1 sits on that ledge just perfectly. Where the safety is, the MSV-1 on/off would strike the rear excess metal of the trigger in front of the safety. Moving the MSV-1 there would allow relocation of the MSV-2 lower in the frame in turn allowing you to lower the LPR input pressure thus allowing you to krank up the tank input pressure for higher rates of fire. Take a look at a frame and you'll see what i mean. It's a master stroke on Gforce's part, how none of us ever saw that i'll never know! :)

[longi]

Just to add, the MSV-1 is mounted in the top of the frame, not the middle. As soon as i get some free time i'm going to be trying it out on a new frame. Bring it on!!

[longi]

Page 1:

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it steps on a few people's toes.
I'm sure I'll end up modeling a drop-in frame just to see how everything could fit.
Perhaps I could do a little secondary machining in my shop when the frames come in for a few that want it. ;)

On a side note, in the Gforce frame I'm holding there's a nice sqaure ram housing. Does anyone who makes that particular component? :D
I'm thinking I can move the frame back and use a vert grip. Then a 9V, noid, and ram would EASILY fit in the frame. Just thinking.

Hilltop, you can cut about 1/3 the height off the MSV1, I did it in a mag and the difference wasn't worth the effort.

You could manufacture a plate and a "u" bracket to hold an MPA-3 in place.

[mpsd]

Didn't see this before, as I was travelling. Looks awesome and I realy like the desing and concept. Would like to see the sear on it though. Don't know why but looks like it would go too low, compared with the standard position (mag with a rail). To make it even more "tinkerer ready", it would be nice if it came with the top ready for an MPA-3, a hole for a MSV-2 actuator and a support for a trigger switch as well as a tappered hole in the bottom for a LPR inside the frame (like the frames Jay did). This way you would acomodate any kind of project, being it a mech, pneu or EP.

I loved the angled ASA, the large trigger guard and the S shapped trigger. Anyways, count me in!

[DanMan]

Wow gone for three days and you miss alot aroung here! I agree with the snatch grip idea and think that you should make these as simple as possible and then add features afterwards as people want them.

[Ninjeff]

LOVE THE IDEA!!!

I'd be in for one....if...

1. i would prefer a vert asa out front. i absolutely dig the idea of the whole bit being together however, and i love the asa close to the trigger guard.

2. Snatch grip out back. Everything in one package? awesome.

3. Wave style trigger. Must have it.

4. i like a more 90* frame personally.

I'd pay 150-200 if the asa was vert. the rest is gravy

[micromag-man]

lots of reading, it looks like a fun new project.

Quick question, Would it work with a PTP micromag. Since the micro has the rail built into the body, would this grip work on it or is this just for AGD rail-less bodies?

[Pneumagger]

Pneumagger: lmk if you want any of this deleted, I'm just throwing this out there to give some ideas to anyone that happens to be looking. I'd have no problem taking it out of your thread.

Actually that would be about as cheap as you can make it. Only 3 additional tapped holes, 1 ~3/8 drilled hole and a slightly larger milled channel behind the trigger. The internal features of the ram(a honed hole with a fitting on the end) would be machined in the frame(no adjustment, or placement issues because its permanent). There would be no additional material setups, and just 4 additional tools on the top(2 drills,hone, and tap), and maybe a smaller endmill for the interal profile grip hole.

Best part is it would still allow a noid similar to the emags be used since that large type of noid is located towards the front of the gun in the frame.....it would also allows enough room for EP noid setup. Plenty of room for something like a t-board.

Even using the in frame sear setup, there should be plenty of room for any upgrade(pneu,EP,big emag noid) option for the mag. I would go as far to include a mounting point for the emag noid(not as hard as it sounds).

I was really liking this design, as it allowed simple configuration for almost any firing option available for the mag. I was going to build my EP with the vertical ram setup, but it was too easy to mount it in the frame as is. But if I was ever to make my own frame, thats how it would be setup.

I was thinking broader than just a pneu upgrade trigger....but I guess thats obvious in the above description :D

Also I'd talk to a patent attorney, as something like that wouldnt directly force a customer toward one path of upgrade, so it may not fall under infringement on one specific patent. Honestly dont know about that, but I would ask if I was making a frame ;)


Placing the msv1 closer to the pivot point on a trigger would definitely have an impact as it is a lever arm. If I were to build a frame, I would want the 3 way placed high as possible; within reason, on the trigger to reduce the required forces; forces can always be increased by adding magnets or springs, but never reduced. This also leaves trigger length adjustable by set screws. With the sear pivot integrated into the frame and basically being in the way, the 3way has to be placed lower....placing it lower limits the ability to lower the forces for activation.....this is why I mentioned cutting it down.

1/3 off the height of the msv-2 comes straight off the vent side right?(other side cant be cut down too much because of the threads...vent side just has the vent and a bunch of material).....I should cut mine down while I'm at it.....make for one sick single trigger pneu setup.... :D

anyone have a beat up single trigger aluminum automag frame they no longer need? shoot me a pm (evilgrin) :D :rofl:
Don't know how I missed this post :tard:

Don't worry about removing anything. It's good discussion.
For your contemplation though, I am considering making a less refined (manual machined) version of this adapter:
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/jrm33/CAD%20Stuff/UEMF%20V2_0/Noidbracket.jpg
Should fit any intelliframe mount. A trigger switch, capacitors, board and noid should fit in the frame.
Although 9v batteries are kinda anemic for tha huge noid - even lithiums.

Also, about a year ago I took a cut down MSV1 and put it in a CF single trigger mag frame.
It fits PERFECTLY behind the trigger where the safety assembly went. I epoxied all the parts into the much skinnier frame.
It worked well, but it looked like poop and because of epoxy, servicability was subpar.
Fun tinkering, but nothing slick enough to write home about.

Don't worry, I will incorporate all of the tinkerability (word?) features I can once we settle on a design.
I'm going to talk to the shop and if features dont add significant costs they'll probably get tossed in.
For example, front LPR mounting hole won't be incorporated. Not everyone want's one and it will drive up cost and hurt the flowlines.
I'll just drill and tap those holes on my minimill for the few users who want it. mill/drill/tap... 20 mins and an easy task.


lots of reading, it looks like a fun new project.

Quick question, Would it work with a PTP micromag. Since the micro has the rail built into the body, would this grip work on it or is this just for AGD rail-less bodies?
The entire frame sits in the old footprint of the UMF (or whatever frame gets used).
If XXX frame fits an AGD marker, odds are this one will too. You will need to the sear in the designated rail and use a block behind the trigger to rest the trigger rod on.
At most, an arced shim will need placed between the frame/railto make the interface flat again.

[Pneumagger]

Update:

Ok, done a little bit of analysis. To quell fears of the sear... here is a central section view of the frame along the right side plane.
In this pic, the sear is in the FIRE position. Keep in mind, this is my best sear approximation using ONLY a Starrett ruler to measure.


I've highlighted some cool things and some concerns.

1) You can see in the fire position, the front sear arm cuts the saftey hole in half. This is very cool because the safety assembly can be rotated and used as a sear block INSTEAD of a trigger block. This means it's a safety for all you pneumag and electro tinkerers as well as an absolute safety gaurding against shocks setting off the marker. No more slamming the back or the reg with a fist and getting a shot... :rofl:

2) You can see that the very tip of the sear interferes with the trigger pin throughout it's travel. This is a concern as proper bolt travel requires the FULL length of the sear hook intact. I will be moving the trigger rod hole ~0.055" forward to aleviate this interference. This should have no impact on feel of the UMF with the lever/wave face of the trigger cut back to offset the new difference.

3) The dashed line represents the original sear arm shelf height in the UMF frame (or any AGD mag frame). To acomodate the new relative frame position, the shelf has been cut 0.642" deeper. This means the sear rod impacts the trigger about 48% lower than before. Therefore, the trigger pull on a mech mag will be about 50% heavier but 50% shorter (angular displacement). With ULT this should still make for a nice trigger pull - probably a tad crispy with the stock RTP. However the RT effect should be increased 50% as well. Crank your tanks up and start rippin... :shooting:
None of this matters for pneumag and electro modders.

4) See the oval in the back? This is where your actuator will be held and will strike the rear arm of the sear.
You can see that cutting off the useless leg of the sear allows ample room for a 3 way or solenoid directly behind the trigger. Don't worry Hilltop ;)
This will be offered only as a mech frame, I just wanted to show the tinkerer's that this frame has good space for shenanigan's.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/jrm33/v01_cutaway.jpg

It is also important to note that all these features are interface control drawing features. If your an engineering type, you may be familiar with that verbage. In layman's term - these features must be present in these relative locations for any AGD marker to work with the frame. Aside from these features, ANYTHING about the frame can be changed or molded around them. Pictured below are the only features of a frame that matter - the rest is fluff.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/jrm33/UMF_ICD.jpg

[behemoth]

You get my message about extending the front out, or you think otherwise?

I think it'd benefit ergonomics as well as aesthetics.

And we both know i'm the KING of aesthetics, i'm so sexy.

[Hilltop Customs]

Niiiice, some reason your pics dont show up in firefox, but in IE they work fine.....must be the host or something.

quick question... you mentioned moving the trigger pivot forward by 0.055", that wont be forward enough when the the trigger is on there will it? I mean the sear will clear the pivot rod, but with the trigger on there the diameter will be increased since the rod is captured within the trigger.

I like how the safety just happens to be in just about the perfect location for interatction directly with the sear :)

Cross sectional views FTW :dance:

Not much meat on that backside....any idea on how much clearance is under the on/off porition of the sear when it is the at rest position? Just trying to picture how deep the ram hole would have to be in there. Think it will be a problem since the cross sectional width of the back side of the frame doesnt seem to be very wide compared to the ram size.

[Sumthinwicked]

i have to watch this shame it wont fit on the new micro thats comming out

[Spider-TW]

Niiiice, some reason your pics dont show up in firefox, but in IE they work fine.....must be the host or something.
I know what you're saying, but it's working in firefox for me. I had trouble with Shane-O-Mac's pump rail thread (still do). Half the time one of the pictures (of the rail) doesn't show up as even a symbol. Shane was using firefox and had no trouble with it. Try a refresh after it's loaded (?).

[spwz99]

I want one. I just hope that the preorder doesn't happen right around the time I have to buy textbooks...

[jade_monkey07]

cant wait to see what this accually looks like on a marker

[snoopay700]

Niiiice, some reason your pics dont show up in firefox, but in IE they work fine.....must be the host or something.

quick question... you mentioned moving the trigger pivot forward by 0.055", that wont be forward enough when the the trigger is on there will it? I mean the sear will clear the pivot rod, but with the trigger on there the diameter will be increased since the rod is captured within the trigger.

I like how the safety just happens to be in just about the perfect location for interatction directly with the sear :)
Glad to see i'm not the only one who noticed that. I think it's headaches like these that made AGD use a rail and not do away with it on the x-mag.

[Pneumagger]

The UMF triggers are wide enough to have a forked journal. That's how the trigger will clear the sear.
I took a few comments and made some changes.
By the way, I'm using firefox and photobucket... I've had no issues :confused:

I did make an EGO-type trigger gard and It just wouldn't flow with an integrated ASA on the front. looked kinda retarted IMO.
Plus, it just so happened a rounded off UMF grip is about the same size as the EGO grip. Only difference is the frame angle is a teeney bit different.
So I left the basic UMF shape. Those UMFs have ALOT of room in them. Plus, they can be tapped for EGO grips.
Longer tail to capture the zpin. Rounded out the back so the frame insn't so angular.
Included another version for consideration that has the ASA moved forward. (I still like the 15 degree look more).
Included the LPR hose line. Fixed the trigger pin clearance issue. Changed the trigger guard shape slightly.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/jrm33/V2UMF.jpg

Curiosity killed the cat, or so they say:

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/jrm33/V2UMFb.jpg

[snoopay700]

I like the 15* asa better too as far as looks go. And i like the idea of making it pneu, gah, i can't afford that with school raping me the way it is damn you.

[mpsd]

This is just so amazing man! Way to go!!! I like the angled ASA as well. How about a small angled piece of aluminum on the back of the frame? Something with this shape:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x299/mpsd18/Projects/V2UMF-snatch.jpg

That would make a snatch grip.

[snoopay700]

This is just so amazing man! Way to go!!! I like the angled ASA as well. How about a small angled piece of aluminum on the back of the frame? Something with this shape:

That would make a snatch grip.
I don't think it would look good on the frame personally. It'd be nice but wouldn't look nice.

[Pneumagger]

Also, I forgot to mention, that's not a vert ASA. It's actually a -5 degree angle to match the lines of the guard and grip.
The vert looked worse, trust me.

[indeed]

I like the vert asa a little more than the 15 degree. Love the vert ram option in this last one. I like the way things are headed so far. Any plans for a pneu trigger rod passage so I don't have to drill one thru the trigger guard?

[Hilltop Customs]

The UMF triggers are wide enough to have a forked journal. That's how the trigger will clear the sear.
I took a few comments and made some changes.
By the way, I'm using firefox and photobucket... I've had no issues :confused:

I did make an EGO-type trigger gard and It just wouldn't flow with an integrated ASA on the front. looked kinda retarted IMO.
Plus, it just so happened a rounded off UMF grip is about the same size as the EGO grip. Only difference is the frame angle is a teeney bit different.
So I left the basic UMF shape. Those UMFs have ALOT of room in them. Plus, they can be tapped for EGO grips.
Longer tail to capture the zpin. Rounded out the back so the frame insn't so angular.
Included another version for consideration that has the ASA moved forward. (I still like the 15 degree look more).
Included the LPR hose line. Fixed the trigger pin clearance issue. Changed the trigger guard shape slightly.

Curiosity killed the cat, or so they say:




still cant see pics in firefox....its only with photobucket pics too weird.....just tried it with my other computer, it works fine on there. Just this one, great. OK WTF, picture that was reposted by mpsd shows up fine....but the original Pneumagger posted doesnt.

Anyway, nice idea about splitting the trigger pivot....didnt realize the triggers were wide enough.

I like them all to tell you the truth. Nice job on integrating the MPA3 holder. Any reason for not just boring a hole for the piston and tapping a fitting instead of mounting an additional component?

Might be a pita to machine the spaced out ASA like that....and your going to need a radius on the front of the trigger guard where it connects back to the frame.(between trigger guard and asa). Other than that, it looks great. I really like the extended back for the z-pin, keeps the rail look, with reduced height....only thing that sucks is it will waste more material.

[splat15k]

I like the MPA3 mounting a lot! :cheers:

The -5* ASA is much better, aesthetically speaking, than the 15*

As far as the snatch grip is concerned, I don't see the need. They aren't very useful in the first place.

[snoopay700]

I like the MPA3 mounting a lot! :cheers:

The -5* ASA is much better, aesthetically speaking, than the 15*
Sir, you do know it's a crime to drink and judge marker designs don't you? :p

[gunman_2000]

*sigh...starts putting money away*

I like it...its a very neat idea. I haven't really even gotten my mag put together yet, but now I'll be on the look out for this in the future I think. Don't even see any mags at hte fields I play as it is.

[Ruler_Mark]

I still think the reg is too close to the trigger guard to hold the top of the reg and clear the trigger guard with your figures.

[Hilltop Customs]

I know I'm probably getting annoying in here....but what about a dovetail rail protruding from the front? Allow customers to choose the angle/placement of the asa they like. Also this will cut down on machine time since the raw material of the frame doesnt have to be as wide as the asa, since it wouldnt have to be a single piece any more.

I guess it wouldnt have to be a dovetail..could just be like the classic mag rail.(I know I already mentioned it, but thought I would again)

It wouldnt be as pretty as a 1 piece setup like the models posted, but it leaves room for expandability. And it doesnt force the use of an asa type foregrip.

[Pneumagger]

It would cost so much to offer separate ASA's that it would kill the order. We've got to hit around 50 orders to have a respectable price on uniframe.
Add in ASA's and your doubling the parts count of the order and adding more shop time. I just don't see it as feasible.
If we get like 200+ orders ( :rolleyes: ) maybe... but that's not happening.

[afortuna]

I'm not sure that I saw this mentioned or addressed anywhere in this thread... warp bodies? Would they be an issue for the useability of this frame?

[caylegeorge]

15* original looks best to me

make it as Nano as possible :) :dance:

-cAyle

[Rudz]

15* ftw :hail: looking good man, real good

[spiked_bad_monkey]

good idea, it does kinda remind me of an ion frame but thats not too bad, i'd really go for one if i could get a 10/15 degree angled back design on the foregrip, i dont know bout you guys but it's alot more comfortable for me and i'm not sure if it's feesable or not, but i also think it'd a little more comfy and lighter if you could "hour glass" the grip kinda like the dye ultralite on the newer dm series both front to back and side to side, just a thought, one more thing, the rear/thumb screw looks like it might be a little too close to the back of the grip for it to go all the way up and be flush with the rail/grip unless you plan on using a dirfferent type of screw, i dont know, just a few thoughts from me, do with them what you will

[Dirge]

Like the 15 degree. Would like to see it a little farther forward though.

[DanMan]

I know I'm probably getting annoying in here....but what about a dovetail rail protruding from the front? Allow customers to choose the angle/placement of the asa they like. Also this will cut down on machine time since the raw material of the frame doesnt have to be as wide as the asa, since it wouldnt have to be a single piece any more.

I guess it wouldnt have to be a dovetail..could just be like the classic mag rail.(I know I already mentioned it, but thought I would again)

It wouldnt be as pretty as a 1 piece setup like the models posted, but it leaves room for expandability. And it doesnt force the use of an asa type foregrip.

I think he is saying dont do an asa at all, let the customer provide one.

[sffudapparel]

I think he is saying dont do an asa at all, let the customer provide one.


I said that on the very first page :D , but no one said anything about it after that.

The asa would limit the choices of front grip, and could probably sleeper it if you wanted to pneu it anyway, instead of tapping the 15* asa. I like the idea of using any front grip, not only ones that are asa threaded.

[Hilltop Customs]

I think he is saying dont do an asa at all, let the customer provide one.

yea that....and if there is enough need for custom ones in the future, maybe look at satsifying that demand. I kindof went off on a tangent with the dovetail idea, because it would provide a sweet mount for anything right under the barrel. I would think you could do the standard classic mag rail type milling....and if anyone wants, easily cut a dovetail out of it.(not positive, dont remember the dimensions offhand) I'm not talking the entier "wings" and everything from the classic, just the center mount section.

anyway, just an idea, I'll quit harping on it lol

[Pneumagger]

So right now we have FOUR potential candidates. When we have some more I'll get quotes on them and we'll vote.
-5 degree with MPA3 mount grip
15 degree with MPA3 mount grip
-5 degree with standard grip
15 degree with standard grip

We've all got to decide on a SINGLE production frame and that's it. Costs will go up ALOT if we tell the shop to do special things to a certain number of frames.
It would be cheaper to have a non-threaded ASA forgrip threaded to fit into an ASA rather than a small run of frames for the half-dozen people who want nonASA foregrips.
It's a one setup job on a manual lathe. I could do it in my basement for people... Just sayin.
Also, if we use a dovetail type mounting system on the front we would have to come up with cu$tom ASA's to put on the dovetail.

I'll model up a version with an automag type adapter on the front. One problem I forsee is that a rail is ~1" wide and a frame is ~3/4" :(
In addition to that, I'm cosidering removing the safety alltogether. After further inpsection, it would not work and the position would have to be moved.
I don't have the budget for prototypes and I don't have AGD models/specs onhand to simulate with. Plus it's 4 extra parts and two extra holes,
I'm also going to change the grip panels pattern to EGO panels/grips. I've tapped a stock UMF for EGO grips before, so I know it will work here.

[behemoth]

No safety is unsafe, Joseph.

[DanMan]

I know that i would pay extra for the mp3a mount :headbang: awesome idea!!!!!!!

Sleeper e-pneu here we come!!!

[DanMan]

It is kind of funny when you can build a whole AGD marker with the only AGD parts being the valve and sear!!

[Pneumagger]

No safety is unsafe, Joseph.
Since when were you the arbiter of safety?
Even more puzzling... Why would I be deemed safe.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/jrm33/Gun%20Stuff/Firearms/DSC00785-1.jpg

[Rudz]

We need the safety

[Pneumagger]

We need the safety
Seriously? :confused: :(

[behemoth]

Since when were you the arbiter of safety?
Even more puzzling... Why would I be deemed safe.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/jrm33/Gun%20Stuff/Firearms/DSC00785-1.jpg

We are both probably the furthest from safe, ever.

And together, we wreck ****.

Lets hang out sometime soon? Beers? Guns? Cars? I'll race your car around?

:)

[SCpoloRicker]

We are both probably the furthest from safe, ever.

And together, we wreck ****.

Lets hang out sometime soon? Beers? Guns? Cars? I'll race your car around?

:)

Hai Guys!1

[snoopay700]

I vote on the 15* with mpa3 mount.

[mpsd]

I vote on the 15* with mpa3 mount.

Yep. That's the one for me too. And, as it'll be an EP (in my iteration), the safety will be the board's on/off anyways.

:cheers:

[indeed]

I vote on the -5* with mpa3 mount. If majority want the 15* with mpa3 mount I'm still in. :D

[craltal]

Forgive me if this has already been stated, but I'd be most interested in a version for a micromag body with the integrated ASA since I was not able to use a logic frame because it would have interfered with a foregrip...

just saying...

[snoopay700]

Forgive me if this has already been stated, but I'd be most interested in a version for a micromag body with the integrated ASA since I was not able to use a logic frame because it would have interfered with a foregrip...

just saying...
That would require a specially made shim, as this design won't work on a micromag, but hey, they may be willing to produce a one of a kind one for you for the right price.

[splat15k]

Why must we vote on ASA options? If we go with a modular design, EVERYONE can be satisfied since they will install an ASA they already own (or they can purchase a new one of course). No custom modular ASAs necessary; use existing AGD-style mounting.

Removing the integrated ASA and adding either a single hole and a dovetail or two holes and a flat surface should reduce cost considerably.

Hilltop makes a great point about the aluminum thickness of the ASA. Eliminating the thickest feature of the frame means a smaller block of stock can be used... slashing costs again.

[Temo Vryce]

Personally I don't rely on the safety as it's not a guarantee. A good barrel Condom/Bag/Plug is more reliable than any safety. How many fields will let you walk around the staging area if you don't have a barrel blocking device but the safety is on? How many rental markers are your field still have a working safety? It's a nice to have, but not required in my opinion.

[mpsd]

Personally I don't rely on the safety as it's not a guarantee. A good barrel Condom/Bag/Plug is more reliable than any safety. How many fields will let you walk around the staging area if you don't have a barrel blocking device but the safety is on? How many rental markers are your field still have a working safety? It's a nice to have, but not required in my opinion.

And can you remind me where exactly is the safety on an Ego, DM or any other top of line marker? LOL Great point.

[Pneumagger]

Why must we vote on ASA options? If we go with a modular design, EVERYONE can be satisfied since they will install an ASA they already own (or they can purchase a new one of course). No custom modular ASAs necessary; use existing AGD-style mounting.

Removing the integrated ASA and adding either a single hole and a dovetail or two holes and a flat surface should reduce cost considerably.

Hilltop makes a great point about the aluminum thickness of the ASA. Eliminating the thickest feature of the frame means a smaller block of stock can be used... slashing costs again.
But then it won't look as sexy. :dance:

Truse me, all the options and prices will be available for vote.
If there are enough votes to support TWO preorders then we could do that.

[spwz99]

Removing the integrated ASA and adding either a single hole and a dovetail or two holes and a flat surface should reduce cost considerably.


Personally, the reason I like this so much is the integrated ASA. I mean without that feature it loses most of its appeal IMHO.

[snoopay700]

Personally, the reason I like this so much is the integrated ASA. I mean without that feature it loses most of its appeal IMHO.
Yeah, same here.

[splat15k]

Perhaps then what you folks are looking for is a rail with an integrated ASA. I thought the main appeal was eliminating the rail.

I agree though, it is sleek. My concern is finding a solution that can work for everyone's taste in ASA angles. Having two or more versions is costly. Sexier, yes, but far more expensive.

[craltal]

That would require a specially made shim, as this design won't work on a micromag, but hey, they may be willing to produce a one of a kind one for you for the right price.


actually i think it would require the removal of some metal from the top of the frame or a super long sear since you'd end up with a body with a built in rail and a frame with a built in rail...

I know it's be something special and don't really expect anything to come from my thoughts, but I thought that maybe I'd make a subliminal suggestion (especially with PTP talking about a new micromag design)

:D
:dance:

[behemoth]

Hai Guys!1

I keep tellin' ya - Fly to CLE.

I'll pick ya up.

Chill at Joes?

[snoopay700]

actually i think it would require the removal of some metal from the top of the frame or a super long sear since you'd end up with a body with a built in rail and a frame with a built in rail...

I know it's be something special and don't really expect anything to come from my thoughts, but I thought that maybe I'd make a subliminal suggestion (especially with PTP talking about a new micromag design)

:D
:dance:
Nah, if you had the shim i was takling about it should operate similar to a normal frame, but you may need to make the shelf higher...

[craltal]

Nah, if you had the shim i was takling about it should operate similar to a normal frame, but you may need to make the shelf higher...

d'oh. i'm thinking pure mech, not pneu or e-pneu...

[snoopay700]

d'oh. i'm thinking pure mech, not pneu or e-pneu...
That's what i meant, but the shelf for the sear rod wouldn't be high enough... This frame wouldn't work on a mirco i don't think.

[Pneumagger]

Why put the frame on a micromag?

[snoopay700]

Why put the frame on a micromag?
Ask craltal, he was the one wondering, i was just explaining it wouldn't work on one.

[DanMan]

you micro guys just cant accept not being able to have the best of both worlds lol :D

[Dirge]

MPA3 mount with 15 degree is my vote.

[Pneumagger]

I know everyone loves the MPA 3 mount frame... but what if production costs are significantly more than a standard frame?
I can see that taking quite a bit more to machine.

[mpsd]

I know everyone loves the MPA 3 mount frame... but what if production costs are significantly more than a standard frame?
I can see that taking quite a bit more to machine.

I'd pay for that...

[splat15k]

As would I.

[snoopay700]

I know everyone loves the MPA 3 mount frame... but what if production costs are significantly more than a standard frame?
I can see that taking quite a bit more to machine.
Then alternatively could a bracket be produced instead? Cause i wouldn't pay extra, cause yeah, i don't have money as it is.

[Looper]

My Vote - Ron Paul...

Oh, sorry wrong thread. I'm with the "15* for President with a MPA-3 running mate". Sorry too many political ads on TV. :tard:

[DanMan]

mp3a with 15*. Wouldn't the only extra machining action be the hole?

[Pneumagger]

Why must we vote on ASA options? If we go with a modular design, EVERYONE can be satisfied since they will install an ASA they already own (or they can purchase a new one of course). No custom modular ASAs necessary; use existing AGD-style mounting.

Removing the integrated ASA and adding either a single hole and a dovetail or two holes and a flat surface should reduce cost considerably.

Hilltop makes a great point about the aluminum thickness of the ASA. Eliminating the thickest feature of the frame means a smaller block of stock can be used... slashing costs again.

Ask and yee shall recieve...
Frame with RTP rail extension and (drumroll....) dramatic lighting.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/jrm33/CAD%20Stuff/rail_frame.jpg

[SSP-SheiK]

i like the above design, however, i wish the asa was longer so that a bike grip would clear the bottom of the trigger gaurd. that would be sick.


also, if pnue'd, would the lpr be inturnal or external?

[Pneumagger]

i like the above design, however, i wish the asa was longer so that a bike grip would clear the bottom of the trigger gaurd. that would be sick
Ideally, you do not want the grip's "rail" to be longer than a classic rail. That way you get nice compatability with some of the shorter mag badies.

What is the max diameter of the bike grip and at what minimum distance from the rail does this diameter occur?
I'll make sure it would fit this rail.

[Avianrave]

Your making me wish I had money to spend on my mag.

If say I did have money, I would probably spend about a max of $200 (I'm not voting because I'm probably not going to buy it, just giving you my estimated demand for it). Then all I would need is a classic valve and I would have 2 vert framed mags.

God this is killing me. :cuss:

[Pneumagger]

IMO, the frame market (as well as the body market) has really become saturated.
IDK, perhaps it's becoming saturated because Mag users are beginnign to dwindle.
What I really need to get made is the drop-in mag spool valve that I designed. The prototyped worked ok, but I just don't see the demand.

[snoopay700]

IMO, the frame market (as well as the body market) has really become saturated.
IDK, perhaps it's becoming saturated because Mag users are beginnign to dwindle.
What I really need to get made is the drop-in mag spool valve that I designed. The prototyped worked ok, but I just don't see the demand.Pics or shens! ;)

[Pneumagger]

Pics or shens! ;)
Truthfully, the frame that this thread is about was originally designed to be the frame for the unibody prototype below.
At the time I just did not have the resources/time to make the frame a part of the project as well. One frame, one body. Mag profile. Mech or electro operation.
Cool gun, the idea kinda stalled because I got a job/wife/house.

It's currently set up to run off a 4 way solenoid and sporting a black hardcoat anodize.
It needs improvements to allow for lower pressure operation. Too much expansion in the flow path before the charge hits the ball.
It sits packed away in a box somewhere. Someday I'll get back to tinkering with it when silencers and auto tuning looses it's appeal.

Internals:
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/jrm33/Paintball%20Stuff/Senoir%20Project/071121_152246.jpg

Operation:
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/jrm33/Paintball%20Stuff/Senoir%20Project/th_Valve_sooth.jpg (http://s53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/jrm33/Paintball%20Stuff/Senoir%20Project/?action=view&current=Valve_sooth.flv)

Unibody prototype (classic rail, UMF, A/C barrel, AKA feedneck):
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/jrm33/Paintball%20Stuff/Senoir%20Project/071121_152026.jpg

[mustangii]

I lke it, I'm in
edm

[rawbutter]

I really like this idea too, although I might have to sell my current mag to justify buying a new frame.

I'll echo what some others have said before, though. Having the WHOLE thing intergrated is really the main thing that makes this frame so intriguing. Someone mentioned that having the 15* ASA integrated into the frame will make it a little meatier and more expensive, but I know when I was putting together my own frame, the 15* ASA was by far the hardest part to find. Finding a nice rail wasn't too easy either. So if I buy this rail, but then still have to buy a bunch of other hard-to-find pieces, then it's appeal is greatly diminished.

The way I figure it, a nice rail, UMF, and 15* ASA (which is a very popular combination) runs most people about $250 altogether, so putting that all into one integrate package is a brilliant idea, especially if it can be done for about $200. It would be a cheaper option, and it would be a much easier option.

[Loco_AEXY]

I REALLY like this concept. And with the added MPA-3 mount I am almost certain I would pick one of these up. I love my other Logic frame (90 deg) and always wanted a UMF but could never justify the purchase. But this is such a unique idea I am definitely interested. And the more flexibility that can be integrated into it to make pneumatic or EP conversion easier definitely ups its value in my book.

I am keeping my fingers crossed that this project is a success!

[snoopay700]

Oh yeah, that one marker that's like a quest, i remember that. Been a while since i've thought about that.

[Pneumagger]

Oh yeah, that one marker that's like a quest, i remember that. Been a while since i've thought about that.
There's enough meat on that marker to turn the body down into the shape of a Mag valve... then just pop it into a ULE.
LOL. It'll never happen, but neat to think about.

[mustangii]

of course the only change I would request would be to make it so you could use the rt sear and pin, that way you won't have to juggle parts when your trying to mount the body.
edm

[mpsd]

Regarding the frame, I'd like to have it with an integratd ASA, specially if I could run it with a Palmer's reg in front, acting like a LPR and having the ASA milled in it's top for the air hose (like you did in one of your pneumags IIRC). That would give it a really nice look considering I'll use it with my new (to me) Chord V1 body, which is AM lenghted.

Still, as I have a spare 15* ASA, I could do the same with it, in case you decide for this later design you did today. But your integrated ASA looks better IMO.

Anyways, I'm in for whatever you do LOL. After having three of my markers done by you (and they are the BEST guns in my collection), I'll support and buy anything you come up with.

Now, how do you intend to proceed with this? We've been discussing it for the past week and it seems to have brought a lot of interest from the AO community, looking like a real go. What's you ETA for showing us some prices and start collecting the downpayments?

[snoopay700]

There's enough meat on that marker to turn the body down into the shape of a Mag valve... then just pop it into a ULE.
LOL. It'll never happen, but neat to think about.
Yeah, my design could definitely be made to work in a mag body, but it's not marketable enough.

[splat15k]

This frame is looking awesome! I really like the NON-integrated asa model, but that's to be expected after I requested it. ;) Thanks for drawing that up by the way. It seems like the majority of folks like the integrated asa design though.

[Looper]

This frame is looking awesome! I really like the NON-integrated asa model, but that's to be expected after I requested it. ;) Thanks for drawing that up by the way. It seems like the majority of folks like the integrated asa design though.
I don't know... I could be swayed to to go for a non asa after seeing that and knowing it would lower cost.

[Pneumagger]

Now, how do you intend to proceed with this? We've been discussing it for the past week and it seems to have brought a lot of interest from the AO community, looking like a real go. What's you ETA for showing us some prices and start collecting the downpayments?

Well, after taking a few suggestions, the designs are pretty much there.
I'm just going to "fine tune" them this weekend. I've only got a few changes like adding EGO frame bolt pattern holes, safety revision, and minor dimension corrections.
If nobody has anymore suggestions that apply any major changes/evolution to the frame I will submit the designs to Logic paintball and possibly some local cnc shops.
With any luck we'll get reasonably accurate estimates and I'll post up a thread with prices on the 6 options (ASA type and internal type).

It should be important to note, I hold to my word that will not be a "Drop-in" pneumatic frame.
The tab will come without holes, the frame will not have a trigger rod hole, and the MPA locataion will only have a .500" diameter bore.
There are patents for pneumatic frames that exist and as such this frame should require a similar level of user modification to convert like current available frames.
So please remember that if the "pneumatic" variant is chosen for production, minor modification will still be needed.

[mpsd]

It should be important to note, I hold to my word that will not be a "Drop-in" pneumatic frame.
The tab will come without holes, the frame will not have a trigger rod hole, and the MPA locataion will only have a .500" diameter bore.
There are patents for pneumatic frames that exist and as such this frame should require a similar level of user modification to convert like current available frames.
So please remember that if the "pneumatic" variant is chosen for production, minor modification will still be needed.

Thanks for the info. Seems very reasonable.

And, regarding your last statement, that's why you are the best in the market for doing such custom mods. My pneumag, my EP and my electromag speak for themselves and are a real proof of my statement.

:cheers:

[mustangii]

I like it without the asa too.
edm

[spiked_bad_monkey]

i'm diggin that unibody design, as soon as you get all the bugs worked out i'm gonna want one, as for the frame, i like the new design you made where you can put your own asa on the front but it still seems as though the thumb screw is a little too close to the back of the frame, maby i missed the post about it but do you plan on using a different type of screw?

[Rudz]

i like the latest design great work joe

[snoopay700]

i'm diggin that unibody design, as soon as you get all the bugs worked out i'm gonna want one, as for the frame, i like the new design you made where you can put your own asa on the front but it still seems as though the thumb screw is a little too close to the back of the frame, maby i missed the post about it but do you plan on using a different type of screw?
Thats not a unibody design that's his own marker design. :rolleyes:

And yes, he plans on using another screw, it's countersunk so that should tell you, and all of logic's frames us a different screw.

[mpsd]

...and all of logic's frames us a different screw.

I've heard that before. But my UMF uses a standard screw:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x299/mpsd18/DSC02678.jpg

Anything wrong or any problem with that?

By the way, Joe (Pneumagger) is the one who modded it for me. Nothing done at the screw hole though.

Thanks.

[snoopay700]

I've heard that before. But my UMF uses a standard screw:

Anything wrong or any problem with that?

By the way, Joe (Pneumagger) is the one who modded it for me. Nothing done at the screw hole though.

Thanks.
Well not saying you can't use the stock one, but usually you see those with another one that's flush with the frame for a cleaner look. At least the ones i've seen.

[mpsd]

Well not saying you can't use the stock one, but usually you see those with another one that's flush with the frame for a cleaner look. At least the ones i've seen.

Well, if it's just the looks, then I'm cool with that. Thanks!

[snoopay700]

Well, if it's just the looks, then I'm cool with that. Thanks!
Yeah, i think it's the ones with the longer back end that i've seen with it, i dunno if i'm remembering wrong, but i could have sworn i saw most logics with a screw with a flat top head with an angled bottom of the head.

[Hilltop Customs]

Since theres all this talk about screws and whatnot, Pneumagger, how do you plan on machining that countersink for the rear frame screw? The grip will be in the way for machining with the frame inverted, and that has to be a flat surface for the screw to rest against.

I didnt even notice till people started to talk about screws and then I noticed this frame will sit back further compared to stock frames.

[snoopay700]

Since theres all this talk about screws and whatnot, Pneumagger, how do you plan on machining that countersink for the rear frame screw? The grip will be in the way for machining with the frame inverted, and that has to be a flat surface for the screw to rest against.

I didnt even notice till people started to talk about screws and then I noticed this frame will sit back further compared to stock frames.
I realized, but i forgot to see if there would be clearance to make the countersink, which is something i usually notice...

[Pneumagger]

Bore out the counter bore diameter from the top and then press a small diameter insert in.
A light tack weld in the top and a polish will hide those right up. Once anodized it will not be an issue.

If I cant find an arc welder to borrow from someone local, I may have to get one for my shop.

[Hilltop Customs]

cool, I was thinking the same thing with overboring and press fit, but that anno/re-anno might cause some issues....acid getting trapped in between surfaces was my main fear.

[mobsterboy]

i want one. thats all i really have to say... except maybe saying it twice... I want one

:ninja:

[spiked_bad_monkey]

Thats not a unibody design that's his own marker design. :rolleyes:

And yes, he plans on using another screw, it's countersunk so that should tell you, and all of logic's frames us a different screw.

ah, ok, thanks for clearing that up for me

[p8ntbal4me]

If I was to design a new frame,... I would want the following.

A) New grips that are simular to the WDP Angel. Where they use 2 top screws allowing for a gap to do custom work such as solenoids or rams.

B) Leave some extra material. If weight reduction is important,.. take it off the front or in the rail. Extra "meat" is always nice to have when you want to mill out for something that the frame could possibly be used for. The material I speak of is the space between the 2 screws on the WDP grips. This would allow for someone to make a DevilMag clone or an EP using a Cyber-ram without running into lack of material to make nice cuts.

C) Plan for electronics. Cut wire channels along the top of the rail and zig zag the cut patterns to keep the wires in the rail when the body is removed. Plan to thin out the channels along the edges where the wires could go up along side a body for eyes.

D) Plan for the LPR channel inside the rail. Majority of the channel can be cut,.. and not exposed up through the front so that people who do not want to use an LPR dont have to see the channel in the front of the frame. Those that wish to use it,... they only have to remove a very small amount of metal. (think along lines of the RT rails,.. how thin the material is at the bottom side of the front fore grip hole. You can drill it out in less than 5 seconds)

E) Use a set screw to hold the trigger rod to the trigger,.. and not a 'pressed in" trigger axle. Specifically,... how the EGO triggers are. The axle is very loose,.. but when the set screw is attached,.. the axle and trigger can not possibly fall out. This prevents having to drive a pin out, and damaging the anno on the gun.

F) A snatch grip. I havent used my Logic EM Ripper much,... but the snatch grip is nice. It wouldnt have to be machined into the frame,.. but having it is a welcome gift

G) No safety. I dont believe in a safety,... I think they set you up for a welcome accident waiting to happen. If its electric,.. turn it off. If its mechanical,... de-gas it. Safetys are more parts,... less usable space on the top of the frame for other parts, and more machining you have to add into the design.

H) Plan for the LPR mounted to the front of the ASA. We all know it has been said,..... might as well throw the thing on there for everyone else.

I) Machine and tap a hole into the ASA from the top inside of the frame/rail to allow for a STAB-FATTY (or the like) to be used to make a sleeper EP or Pneumag. The hole should allow for a 90 degree barb to be screwed into the top,.. and an air hose passage to the inside of the frame.

J) Plan to house a LPR inside the frame for a sleeper Pneumag.

I might have some more suggestions,... but this is as much as I can think of right now :D

~ P8nt

[Hilltop Customs]

all good suggestions p8ntbal4me, I especially like the zig-zag wire channel...good thinking. I agree about the trigger axle too, makes changing out the trigger less dangerous(dangerous as in scratching your brand new $200+ anno). Only thing I dont agree with is not having a safety....for customization I can see why a safety is useless, but as a standard frame I'd always want a safety(especially if it was a sear stopping safety that could be used for any iteration of actuation)

[SSP-SheiK]

Ideally, you do not want the grip's "rail" to be longer than a classic rail. That way you get nice compatibility with some of the shorter mag bodies.

What is the max diameter of the bike grip and at what minimum distance from the rail does this diameter occur?
I'll make sure it would fit this rail.


well what i mean is if agd still carried the old long style vert asa's with flat top. i had one on my classic rail with intelli and it cleared it no problem. then again i dont know how long the trigger guard on your prototype is compared to the intelliframe's guard. i like my grip nice and tight to the frame but the rubber part of the grip overlaps the trigger guard and makes the surface area for gripping smaller.

heres a pic of what im talking about...

http://www.scenariosource.com/images/GunTacOne.jpg

the rubber of the bike grip clears the guard...



but then again, i have yet to see the finnished product, so it may not even be a problem, plus it may just be MY opinion, other people may like their grip like that, idk...

:cheers:

[micromag-man]

i'd be happy to have the second-off for the Micromag with a 15 degree as well.

If this goes into production, I want one made for the Micro, without using a shim.

With PTP about to make their new body, i know that there would be interest in having these frames.

SO, i light of that, I'll take 10 of these frames IF AND ONLY IF, they are designed for a Micromag w/o a shim

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Pneumagger]

The whole concept of the frame is to integrate the rail into the frame.
The micromag concept integrates the rail into the body.
Since a mag only uses one sear and one rail, a micromag and this frame would appear to be mutually exclusive.

You're looking for a frame with just built in ASA

[micromag-man]

Well that takes the wind out of my sail

[splat15k]

So how are things coming along Pneumagger? Do any action items remain for us AOers?

[Hilltop Customs]

Since a mag only uses one sear and one rail, a micromag and this frame would appear to be mutually exclusive.

Thought someone already said it, but if you(anyone who wants it done) machined the bottom of a micromag body to mactch the exterior dimensions of a ULE body(for the area of the mate between body and frame), I cant see any reason why it wouldnt work. IMO it would be a lot of work, but it sure would be unique.

[micromag-man]

Much easier to make another frame than it would be to alter a micro

[Pneumagger]

Much easier to make another frame than it would be to alter a micro
Much cheaper to mill the micro if you have the ULE CAD onhand.
You could probably do the whole operation from one mount with a .250 ball end mill, 10-32 pilot drill and 10-32 tap.

[Dend78]

The whole concept of the frame is to integrate the rail into the frame.
The micromag concept integrates the rail into the body.
Since a mag only uses one sear and one rail, a micromag and this frame would appear to be mutually exclusive.

You're looking for a frame with just built in ASA


on that comment heres a crazy lil thought but it wouldnt be very ummm upgradable and i dont know much about milling but how bad would it be to mill it all as one? body, rail, frame and ASA? just add a valve, gas thru of your choice and barrel and a thumb screw to hold the vavle? call it hell spawn lol

[Hilltop Customs]

Much easier to make another frame than it would be to alter a micro

milling another frame without the rail in the frame would result in basically a standard UMF frame....well a UMF with an integrated ASA.

Dend78, that would have a bunch of impossible geometries(examples being the trigger slot and sear slot).

[snoopay700]

milling another frame without the rail in the frame would result in basically a standard UMF frame....well a UMF with an integrated ASA.

Dend78, that would have a bunch of impossible geometries(examples being the trigger slot and sear slot).
Damn, beat me to it. You could do it, but it would have holes in odd places and wouldn't look great.

[Dend78]

thats what i figured i was wondering how that would work out to get those slots in there, bu basically wouldnt those holes be covered by the valve? reason i say that how do you do mill it rail and frame together with those same cuts? like i said im a noob to a mill i can drill press holes and dremel it to death but the real stuff im not sure on

[snoopay700]

thats what i figured i was wondering how that would work out to get those slots in there, bu basically wouldnt those holes be covered by the valve? reason i say that how do you do mill it rail and frame together with those same cuts? like i said im a noob to a mill i can drill press holes and dremel it to death but the real stuff im not sure on
No, i mean it would have holes in the front of the trigger guard and the top of the body, there is no way to get the holes that would be in the rail and body without them being separate. You can combine the raile and gripframe because all you need is a place to mount the sear which is what the rail was for, and combining the rail and body you can make the cuts for that from the bottom of the body, but combining the frame and the body and the top of the body or bottom of the frame are in the way.

[senghing27]

I'm like extremely late to the party...

Joe, the frame looks fab.

:clap:

I vote for EGO panels, they are oh so comfy.

[mostpeople]

If I was to design a new frame,... I would want the following.

A) New grips that are simular to the WDP Angel. Where they use 2 top screws allowing for a gap to do custom work such as solenoids or rams.

B) Leave some extra material. If weight reduction is important,.. take it off the front or in the rail. Extra "meat" is always nice to have when you want to mill out for something that the frame could possibly be used for. The material I speak of is the space between the 2 screws on the WDP grips. This would allow for someone to make a DevilMag clone or an EP using a Cyber-ram without running into lack of material to make nice cuts.

C) Plan for electronics. Cut wire channels along the top of the rail and zig zag the cut patterns to keep the wires in the rail when the body is removed. Plan to thin out the channels along the edges where the wires could go up along side a body for eyes.

D) Plan for the LPR channel inside the rail. Majority of the channel can be cut,.. and not exposed up through the front so that people who do not want to use an LPR dont have to see the channel in the front of the frame. Those that wish to use it,... they only have to remove a very small amount of metal. (think along lines of the RT rails,.. how thin the material is at the bottom side of the front fore grip hole. You can drill it out in less than 5 seconds)

E) Use a set screw to hold the trigger rod to the trigger,.. and not a 'pressed in" trigger axle. Specifically,... how the EGO triggers are. The axle is very loose,.. but when the set screw is attached,.. the axle and trigger can not possibly fall out. This prevents having to drive a pin out, and damaging the anno on the gun.

F) A snatch grip. I havent used my Logic EM Ripper much,... but the snatch grip is nice. It wouldnt have to be machined into the frame,.. but having it is a welcome gift

G) No safety. I dont believe in a safety,... I think they set you up for a welcome accident waiting to happen. If its electric,.. turn it off. If its mechanical,... de-gas it. Safetys are more parts,... less usable space on the top of the frame for other parts, and more machining you have to add into the design.

H) Plan for the LPR mounted to the front of the ASA. We all know it has been said,..... might as well throw the thing on there for everyone else.

I) Machine and tap a hole into the ASA from the top inside of the frame/rail to allow for a STAB-FATTY (or the like) to be used to make a sleeper EP or Pneumag. The hole should allow for a 90 degree barb to be screwed into the top,.. and an air hose passage to the inside of the frame.

J) Plan to house a LPR inside the frame for a sleeper Pneumag.

I might have some more suggestions,... but this is as much as I can think of right now :D

~ P8nt


THIS

[luke]

Much cheaper to mill the micro if you have the ULE CAD onhand.
You could probably do the whole operation from one mount with a .250 ball end mill, 10-32 pilot drill and 10-32 tap.

I don’t know all the parameters of the new frame, but wouldn't it be easier to mill the top of your new frame flat? Sorry if it's been mentioned already, but I didn't read the whole thread.

Very cool idea by the way. :cheers:

[Pneumagger]

Update: Sorry, I've been terribly busy at work. I did go measure the ego grip bolt pattern so I can add that into the frame.
Once that gets added in I'll send th e model off to get quotes.

[dvannord]

Didn't read the whole thread... but if it hasn't already been suggested;

- internally tapped for in-frame LPR
- internal mounting points for pneu valves/plunger
- either vertical foregrip adapter or the option for vert OR angled
- possibly, milled to accept electric internals

[luke]

Didn't read the whole thread... but if it hasn't already been suggested;

- internally tapped for in-frame LPR
- internal mounting points for pneu valves/plunger
- either vertical foregrip adapter or the option for vert OR angled
- possibly, milled to accept electric internals

That's not what I was talking about. It was suggested that the bottom of the Micromag body would need to be milled in order to use this frame with that body. I was suggesting that it would be easier to mill the frame rather that writting code and machining the body.

[splat15k]

I'm not sure why micromags are even mentioned in this thread. Can we all agree that they have nothing to do with this project and move on?

[mostpeople]

I'm not sure why micromags are even mentioned in this thread. Can we all agree that they have nothing to do with this project and move on?


Exactly, from all angles this thing looks like it is designed to work with the ULE line and nothing else. Micromags are bodies that include sear attachments so no rail is used. This is a frame that does that same thing. So they are inherently incompatible - unless I missed something?

[splat15k]

Exactly, from all angles this thing looks like it is designed to work with the ULE line and nothing else. Micromags are bodies that include sear attachments so no rail is used. This is a frame that does that same thing. So they are inherently incompatible - unless I missed something?


Nope, you've got it! :cheers:


EDIT: There was talk of making them compatible with twistlock bodies, but I don't know that status of that.

[Pneumagger]

The hole can be longer for the classic bodies, as well as the twistlock pin.

How many people 'prefer' twistlock bodies though... honestly?

[mostpeople]

Can this frame be setup for the true sleeper configuration straight from manufacture? I mean where you have say any LPR as the forgrip and use a 90* fitting for the air hose at the top and route that to the gripframe as you have told me about pneumagger?

[Hilltop Customs]

I honestly wouldnt mess with twistlock bodies. Not only would the pin have to be placed into the gripframe(as it used to be in the rail)....think about trying to remove it. Removal means you have to have access to the underside of the pin, unless you want to drill it out or something crazy. This would be really significant on the attached ASA design. With the protruding rail setup, it wouldnt be bad, but then the protruding rail would have to be thick enough to conceal the height of the pin....which I dont see as a realistic goal.

[luke]

I'm not sure why micromags are even mentioned in this thread. Can we all agree that they have nothing to do with this project and move on?

Boy you guys really are something, since when did modifying and customizing have anything to do with Automags! How dare anyone ask! And by the way "I" didn't ask, I only made a suggestion.

[luke]

Exactly, from all angles this thing looks like it is designed to work with the ULE line and nothing else. Micromags are bodies that include sear attachments so no rail is used. This is a frame that does that same thing. So they are inherently incompatible - unless I missed something?

Yea, we all know that NON-Automag frames can't be modified to work with a Mag. So why should anyone consider modifying this one to work with a Micro... :rolleyes:

[Dend78]

the reason micro's were talked about was due to the fact that PTP is planning to come out with new bodies soon, and the question was asked if it would be possible to put one of these sessy lil frames on a micro without a spacer or other modifications.

[splat15k]

*sigh* I'm not saying it is a bad idea to adapt and/or modify something to work with something else, but this thread is dealing with a product that does not exist yet. There is NO frame/rail/asa combo that will work with the micromag body without serious modification. We all know this and nobody has any issue with it. I'm simply stating that THIS product does not accommodate micromag bodies. If we changed it so that it did, it would no longer be THIS product.

Perhaps I am missing the point though; Are you guys proposing two designs? One for micromag bodies and one for ULE?

[luke]

*sigh* I'm not saying it is a bad idea to adapt and/or modify something to work with something else, but this thread is dealing with a product that does not exist yet. There is NO frame/rail/asa combo that will work with the micromag body without serious modification. We all know this and nobody has any issue with it. I'm simply stating that THIS product does not accommodate micromag bodies. If we changed it so that it did, it would no longer be THIS product.

Perhaps I am missing the point though; Are you guys proposing two designs? One for micromag bodies and one for ULE?

Who said anything about changing the design? I didn't, I only suggested to Pneumagger that perhaps it would be easier to mod the frame rather that the Micro body. NOT in his production run, but after the fact. If the frame can be modified for a few dollars it may increase your chances of getting the frame at a good price, because it might increase his sales.

When I said I didn't know the parameters of the frame, I wasn’t saying that I didn't understand the design and function of his frame. I was indicating that I wasn't sure from a machinist point of view how easily it could be modified. And, I wasn't sure if he had stated earlier that it wasn't a viable option, because I hadn’t read the entire thread.

But, I would bet $5 that I could do it.

[splat15k]

Who said anything about changing the design? I didn't, I only suggested to Pneumagger that perhaps it would be easier to mod the frame rather that the Micro body. NOT in his production run, but after the fact. If the frame can be modified for a few dollars it may increase your chances of getting the frame at a good price, because it might increase his sales.

When I said I didn't know the parameters of the frame, I wasn’t saying that I didn't understand the design and function of his frame. I was indicating that I wasn't sure from a machinist point of view how easily it could be modified. And, I wasn't sure if he had stated earlier that it wasn't a viable option, because I hadn’t read the entire thread.

But, I would bet $5 that I could do it.


Ah, I gotchya now luke; thanks for the clarification! :cheers:

Pneumagger, have you had the chance to look into this at all?

[Smoothice]

subscribed :cheers:

[splat15k]

Any quotation replies?

[master_alexander]

i haven't read the whole thread, but have some input...

what about the strength and durability? when i hold my mag i know that it's not going to fall apart...

with this design it might seem more like a balancing act once the hopper etc is on the gun.

[DanMan]

dosent the micro mag already have an integrated asa anyway? just get a umf lol. ;)

[mpsd]

TTT and waiting for some news!

[splat15k]

TTT and waiting for some news!

:ninja: Same here! :ninja:

[warbeak2099]

Same thrice :cool:

[Pneumagger]

I sumbitted quotes to one AO'ers shop last week an waiting for a response.
I'll to submit it to two or three more shops unless the first quote is doable.

When the quotes come back for each of the 6 different versions, I'll post a vote thread and we'll choose a price/frame.
After that, it's a race to fill a minimum preorder number.

The six variants will be:
15 degree with .45 grips
-5 degree with .45 grips
AGD rail extension with .45 grips
Each of the above with an intriguing interior and ego grips. :ninja:

This thread has pretty much run it's course and I cant wait until I can start the voting thread. :D

[Pneumagger]

On a side note, I've considered doing the anodizing myself.
An in-garage anodizing setup spread over the cost of 25-50 frames should be nearly negligible.
Couple of 5 gal uckets, power supply, electrolyte, some water/dye...
I can already do blasting (dust) here and send out to a local auto shop for polishing.
Basic colors. ROYGBIV. How had could it be?
Plus, it's cold as balls here so if the ano tank was put into a larger Ice-bath bucket, I could probably get some nice anodic layers.

Long as I'm not doing the polishing for those who want it, I think it'd e a great time. :)

[Engus]

Long as I'm not doing the polishing for those who want it, I think it'd e a great time. :)

and it motivates you to get the setup, and then you can mess around with cool patterns on your own stuff

[Hilltop Customs]

wow kind of weird you mention anno, Ive been looking into it a little bit for some home stuff.

Best site ive found is http://www.focuser.com/atm/anodize/anodize.html

It really doesnt look too difficult for basic solid colors.

Saves on shipping cost to and from anno, and avoids annodizer's markup.....that should pay of the initial investment in the anno setup.

[sebastianbalogh]

I haven't paid attention to this thread until now, but I would definitely be in if it had a vertical ASA, would work with warp bodies, and was not much more than $200 including black annodization. Bonus if it has the dovetails on the bottom of the grip, the extended rear, and no safety. Looking forward to the next stage of this project!

[PaintballSmurf13]

I really like it. ESPECIALLY b/c it integrates the rail and the vert asa into the frame for one solid piece. I'd like to see it with a straight reg asa and possibly the geometry of a UL frame. Or a Marq frame. Something slim.

[UberWigget]

Like others, I think it'd be nice to have the option for a straight vertical asa. I'm definitely interested

[Spider-TW]

Bumpity :ninja:

[UberWigget]

Yeah, anymore updates on the frame?

[Pneumagger]

Yeah, anymore updates on the frame?
Actually, yes...
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=237890

[ironchef97]

Yea, I'm really interested as well!

[Carnage reigns]

Moving to the front.

[mpsd]

Moving to the front.

What's the point? :tard:

You are bringing a three years old dead project from a guy who didn't log here since forever to the front...

http://www.automags.org/forums/member.php?userid=28509
Last Activity: 08-10-2011 10:11 AM

[Drix]

Moving to the front.
http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/file.php?40,file=9232,filename=ThreadResurrection. jpg

[Carnage reigns]

Did it because it's being discussed in another thread. Didn't think it would hurt.

[reckid1986]

it doesnt hurt. imagine these frames + his new valve + ??? new body = next generation of mags, If AGD bought or even partnered his designs. I know patents screw everything up but hey, it would be nice.

[OPBN]

it doesnt hurt. imagine these frames + his new valve + ??? new body = next generation of mags, If AGD bought or even partnered his designs. I know patents screw everything up but hey, it would be nice.
?

[knownothingmags]

same ?

[reckid1986]

This one EP Valve (http://automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=257464)

I know its just another dead thread but if someone could fix/fine tune and finish these 2 projects, it would be a sweet combo. Top it off with a new body and id say it would be the new age 'mag.