An hypothesis for a lighter, more efficient air system than HPA.

[halB]

CO2 is much more efficient than HPA- since it can become a liquid. The tanks are also lighter as they do not have to withstand the same pressures.

But, it freezes the gun up because the liquid to gas conversion absorbs muy amounts of heat. The faster you shoot the gun, the less able the liquid is to absorb the necessary amount of energy to turn into a gas.

Propane is the most efficient liquid, at least when it is combusted. Many companies attempted it, but right now the only gun that uses it is a pump gun - because rapid fire heats the gun up too fast, and the gun is not able to release the energy fast enough - putting the consumer and gun at risk.



Betwixt the two we shall find the truth.

Combine them. One small propane tank combined with a slightly larger CO2 tank. The CO2 could work the lp and the propane the hp. They'll keep each other at the appropriate temperature.

Feel free to use.

[punkncat]

Personally I would not want to hassle with a system that required two different systems to run. The combination of the two and the containment of it could easily outweigh an HPA tank. The ease of using HPA and most modern markers ability to shoot well over 1000 balls on a fill (68/45) justs makes everything else inconsequential to me.

[Spider-TW]

I don't think you would use enough CO2 in the low pressure side to take advantage of the efficiency nor provide sufficient cooling for propane at a fair firing rate. Have you tried a heat balance yet? That would tell you where the limits are.

With a controller, you could mix the firing modes, which would be some trick, but the heat flow would be there.

Not saying it would be convenient or an easy fill either... :)

[snoopay700]

It's too much hassle for what you get. You would have to probably invert them or something because teh co2 wouldn't cool the gunn enough with how much would be used. It would be a pain to engineer and just doesn't have enough advantages.

[teufelhunden]

attach a radiator to the gun

[snoopay700]

attach a radiator to the gun
So you take weight away, and add it in a different place?

[Empyreal Rogue]

Doesn't propane have explosive tendencies? Paintball guns are infamous for leaks, so what happens when you gather together 500+ people for a scenario event all shooting propane fueled markers playing a sport where a large percentage of players smoke?

The idea seems too impractical, anyway. I can't imagine how a two air system would be better (and lighter) than a system that runs off a single air source. Not to mention HPA can be generated from thin air, both CO2 and Propane cannot be. Thus you're forced to drive up costs as you have to have CO2 tanks refilled, or new ones sent in; same situation with propane and gas companies. HPA compressors essentially pay for themselves over time. You buy it, maintain it, and that's all there is to it. That's why air prices have dropped significantly from the days of when CO2 was the predominant air source.

[Ken Majors]

:rolleyes: ...on a lighter note...

If the LP explodes....the CO2 will put the flames out before you burn up.

So all you'll have to deal with is the trauma from all the shrapnel wounds and blast injuries.
:mad:

That was a joke :rolleyes:

[malJohann]

I think in future you will see more inboard compressors like with the NPS eVolt concept. Alternatively a mechanism coupled to your body movement can also recharge your air source, this would of course force you to move, which is not a bad thing IMO.

[BigEvil]

Are HP tanks so awful? The hopper fully of paint sitting on top of the gun is more bothersome to me than the tank.

Little tiny agg gun + 45/4500 hp tank then a big gawky Magna loader on top? Kinda defeats the purpose IMO. Then again, im strange. :tard:

[kruger]

....and, co2 will not allow the Propane to ignite in the combustion chamber. Unless you are using the co2 to actually cool the chamber seperatly. Then all you did was add another tank.

[malJohann]

Are HP tanks so awful? The hopper fully of paint sitting on top of the gun is more bothersome to me than the tank.

Little tiny agg gun + 45/4500 hp tank then a big gawky Magna loader on top? Kinda defeats the purpose IMO. Then again, im strange. :tard:

You're not, it's the same reason why I got a Q-loader, but hoppers have their advantages, like for example being able to shoot while reloading.

[snoopay700]

....and, co2 will not allow the Propane to ignite in the combustion chamber. Unless you are using the co2 to actually cool the chamber seperatly. Then all you did was add another tank.
It sounded to me like he meant a spool valve type marker, have propane in the dump chamber and it ignites, then co2 to push it back and cool down the dump chamber. This would also probably make for some fairly inconsistent velocities.

[Spider-TW]

In addition to all that, you would probably have to cool the barrel as well, so that it wouldn't melt the gelatin.

Now, if you start thinking Gatling type gun instead of marker, you could use the co2 to rotate and purge the barrels and maybe have enough for cooling. You would have to plan on feeding liquid co2 to the mechanism at some point (or full time) though. Four barrels, for fire, vent, load, and charge.

This might work with a propane powered scenario tank (a Mad Max scenario). :D

[RavishingEddie]

Hello I am very surprised at this thread because I am currently attempting to design a semi automatic propane powered paintball gun. I am just starting to scratch the surface here, but I have found many ways to deal with the heat issue. My only problem is finding a way to add oxygen to the propane mixture without using an air tank.

I am currently studying the mechanics of this to help me think of a solution.
Basically, if I could find a way to use the excess combustion to cycle the gun for the next shot like the AK-47 then I would eliminate the need to use compressed air or CO2. ;)

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advantages of propane:

1. Consistency
2. Efficiency 5000 + shots
3. Cheap
4. Safe. propane tank is only 150 psi. Compressed air tank is 3000 or 4500 psi.


Disadvantages of propane:

1. Generates heat (possible solutions found)
2. Requires oxygen to work ( researching)

[snoopay700]

Hello I am very surprised at this thread because I am currently attempting to design a semi automatic propane powered paintball gun. I am just starting to scratch the surface here, but I have found many ways to deal with the heat issue. My only problem is finding a way to add oxygen to the propane mixture without using an air tank.

I am currently studying the mechanics of this to help me think of a solution.
Basically, if I could find a way to use the excess combustion to cycle the gun for the next shot like the AK-47 then I would eliminate the need to use compressed air or CO2. ;)



advantages of propane:

1. Consistency
2. Efficiency 5000 + shots
3. Cheap
4. Safe. propane tank is only 150 psi. Compressed air tank is 3000 or 4500 psi.


Disadvantages of propane:

1. Generates heat (possible solutions found)
2. Requires oxygen to work ( researching)
Nah, something like that wouldn't work well, you'd be better off with a sort of poppet design most likely, you ignite the propane in the chamber as the hammer is traveling toward the poppet, it fires, and then the excess gas pushes it back, a sort of variation on the STBB design. Everything would require a new specific board to operate most likely, but it could work. Another idea is a sort of Mini-ish idea, but with all of these heat would be an issue unless you made the body of the marker into a heat sink, and i have a feeling that design wouldn't be very popular.

[RavishingEddie]

Nah, something like that wouldn't work well, you'd be better off with a sort of poppet design most likely, you ignite the propane in the chamber as the hammer is traveling toward the poppet, it fires, and then the excess gas pushes it back, a sort of variation on the STBB design. Everything would require a new specific board to operate most likely, but it could work. Another idea is a sort of Mini-ish idea, but with all of these heat would be an issue unless you made the body of the marker into a heat sink, and i have a feeling that design wouldn't be very popular.


What if I found a way to use anti freeze inside the gun? Would that work?

[snoopay700]

What if I found a way to use anti freeze inside the gun? Would that work?
It would need to run through a heatsink aka radiator, I've been thinking about a way to cool it with liquid and it would just make it heavier because of the need for some kind of radiator, and truthfully the heatsink idea is easier and lighter, though i don't know how effective it would be. Actually i have an idea i think would be really good and would work, but the heat is the main problem, but other than that it would work and would be pretty small.

[snoopay700]

I just realized, heat isn't the biggest obstacle to overcome with a propane powered marker, it's getting the exhaust gasses out and the air in. That's why the C3 is a pump now that i remember, and it wouldn't be as simple as the design i have, it would work but it would eventually choke itself. I could probably find a way to purge the chamber between shots, but it would be tough.

[RavishingEddie]

I just realized, heat isn't the biggest obstacle to overcome with a propane powered marker, it's getting the exhaust gasses out and the air in. That's why the C3 is a pump now that i remember, and it wouldn't be as simple as the design i have, it would work but it would eventually choke itself. I could probably find a way to purge the chamber between shots, but it would be tough.

Yeah that is my main obstacle right now. It isn't like striking a bullet with a pin. You have to combine gas,air and igniter. I was thinking of creating an opening in the body to expose the bolt and everytime it would cycle, the bolt would open and close catching air and cooling in the same time. I would really like to come up with a way to not use electronics.

[Hilltop Customs]

Air isnt really a problem, just need to design a pump into the marker. Need 2 check valves and a piston with a cycling movement. Bolt movement could be used as they piston pump(either by directly designing the back surface to be used as the pump or used to actuate the piston). One check valve only allows air to enter(from the outside) the piston stroke area, and the other only allows air to leave the piston stroke area(compressed out by the piston into the combustion area.

timing the inlet and exhaust of the combustion area(opening and closing of ports as the bolt moves) could be used like a 2 stoke engine to accomplish the removal of exhaust gas and inlet of fresh air and fuel. Since the air is pressurized by the piston, and the propane is pressurized out of the bottle a 2 stroke engine design is possible.(no need for crankcase pressure).

essentially design a 2 stroke engine which only fires when you pull a trigger, and you have a paintball marker that uses propane as fuel.

edit:
by 2 stroke which only "fires"; I meant a single stroke for each pull of the trigger.

No matter what it is not going to be fun to design for...considering the large heat increase of high rof will reek havoc of shot to shot velocity between strings and single shot. Depending on the design, you may even have to go with some sort of dwell compensation to account for the large heat increase you could possibly get with long strings. Also consider the fact that, if you have a controlled combustion, then release the "exhaust" down the barrel, any deviation in timing between those two events could lead to massive swings in velocity.

IDK if thats what you guys were thinking of or something similar to a bullet where combustion will be happening directly behing the projectile(paintball) itself. In that case you will still have to worry about the sequence of events leading up to firing....is the gas held in a chamber that will possibly heat up during high rof? if the chamber becomes hot, then gas is held in it for a short time, the gases will heat up, and then combustion will occur at a faster rate than room temp gasses.(meaning faster acceleration and higher velocity). It might not be much of a difference, more of something to look out for.

[Ruler_Mark]

MR. Hal B.

:ninja: :ninja: :ninja: :ninja: :ninja:

Make it and we shall see.

[snoopay700]

Yeah that is my main obstacle right now. It isn't like striking a bullet with a pin. You have to combine gas,air and igniter. I was thinking of creating an opening in the body to expose the bolt and everytime it would cycle, the bolt would open and close catching air and cooling in the same time. I would really like to come up with a way to not use electronics.
You need electronics unless you use a match to fire it, because the arc is what ignites the propane, why else did you think heat was a possible issue?

[ghtpDM5]

well, looking at this as i see it right now, the winchester sx series shotguns, or near any gas reloaded shotgun on the market(the sx series some to mind for efficiency in the system) could provide a good base for design, replace the exhaust chamber with a combustion camber and you may damn near have it, the only thing is getting the fuel injection system reliable(be it mechanical of electronic, my preference being the mechanical) this could be done, but the issues to be dealt with aren't worth the cost to me

[halB]

What if I found a way to use anti freeze inside the gun? Would that work?
Antifreeze would accomplish the very thing i am talking about: absorbing energy. However, CO2 would do it a lot more efficiently and compactly (although it would be a resource that is used up) because it goes through a phase change - just like air conditioning. I just wouldn't bother pumping it back into a liquid...

or... would there be enough excess energy from the propane explosion TO convert it back into a liquid...

but then, you'd just be moving the heat to another part of the gun. So I guess exhausting the used CO2 would be the best decision.

edit: It would be two tanks, the CO2 would never be combined with the propane.

[Chris Nearchos]

why not forget about the whole tank system? and just come up with a tiny high OR low pressure ultra quick air compressor unit? about the size of a classic valve?


something along the lines the idea of a turbine engine using magnets to power it or a battery.


just an idea that doesnt have to deal with deadly gas.

-Chris

[Hilltop Customs]

you will lose efficiency with every step in the system. So including compressing a gas in the marker will result in requiring more energy stored in battery form than what is stored in compressed air for the same number of shots.

what I mean by this is easier to have that loss occur at a large compressor that is ran off the power grid, than have that loss drain a battery which has to be carried around.



that and you will also need to create a method of compression which needs to be small, quiet, and efficient.....which wouldnt be easy.

[halB]

why not forget about the whole tank system? and just come up with a tiny high OR low pressure ultra quick air compressor unit? about the size of a classic valve?


something along the lines the idea of a turbine engine using magnets to power it or a battery.


just an idea that doesnt have to deal with deadly gas.

-Chris


One day there will be paintball guns powered by either awesome capacitors or via hydrogen. But, not today.

We need to find the next step before we get the amazing paintball gun that doesn't need a tank.

[Chris Nearchos]

that and you will also need to create a method of compression which needs to be small, quiet, and efficient.....which wouldnt be easy.


didn't say it would be easy...just another idea. and as for a loss of energy in the system (aka waste), just gotta find a way to make it efficient. and with battery efficiency getting much better with the new batteries being developed....wouldnt have much of a problem with powering.


but on the other hand, its not any harder of an idea then using an explosive gas to power the marker (or even a gun in general). Governments have been trying to overcome the whole heat issue since rapid firing became a reality with firearms.

just thinking outside the box.

-Chris

[Chris Nearchos]

One day there will be paintball guns powered by either awesome capacitors


didnt even think about that. but then that would require some kind of big battery pack. probably a backpack to start out with.

i think i might have to explore this idea further.

-Chris


**Edit**

as for finding a step inbetween comment, let me ask you this. why convert from one gas to another when in the end, your gonna be needing more to make a marker function then what you did with in the begining? while in the process making it more dangerous for people to use?

not trying to kill your idea, just wanted to ask that.

[Hilltop Customs]

propane is abundant, cheap, and not any more dangerous than 4500psi compressed air. Considering anything completely safe while being handeled by unsupervised kids is insane. Propane burns, thats widely known.....now consider the fact that if something leaks the first thought is to oil/grease.....personally I think that makes HPA more dangerous than propane. Oh and propane has the additional benefit of a very distinguishable smell, so it should be noticeable before it becomes a hazard.

Any way you slice it, compressing air is an inefficient process....thats why it heats up so much as it is being compressed. I'm too lazy to try and do the math now, but the amount of energy stored in a 4500 psi tank is amazing. I would hate to even consider the cost of a battery with comparable energy storage(especially if you want to go high tech with lightweight lithium....and a battery of that type would not really be any safer than a pressure tank, seeing that an internal or external short would cause fire or an explosion)

[Chris Nearchos]

your right. no matter how you slice the pie, you will have problems one way or another. its just all about finding new or better technology to help get around a curve.


but to add more to the pie, what abotu just a marker completly powered by a battery? wasn't there a manufacture working on that idea and had something working?



btw, what happens when you have a leak in the air line or tank of the propane and the user goes for a dive and creates a spark in just the right way?

i know its a stupid question that has the slimest probability of happening. but its something the paintball insurance people and the general public will be asking of and be highly affraid of.


again, not trying to kill the idea. just asking questions.

-Chris

[Army]

Propane would require by law, state mandated valves and tanks. Handling permits and dispensing licenses would put it far above the cost of simply pumping air.

[Chris Nearchos]

Propane would require by law, state mandated valves and tanks. Handling permits and dispensing licenses would put it far above the cost of simply pumping air.


that is true, didnt even think of that legal side. good thinking!

-Chris

[Hilltop Customs]

I wasnt aware of anyone that had a marker fully powered by a battery. I'd be curious how they actually propelled the paintball, a magnetic ram or some other means.

as for a leak in the airline, first rule I would have for coming up with a completely new design in a marker that would require this much development time(new power source) would be no exposed airlines.....but just for this, lets say they have macro just like a mag.

Unless it is some type of major leak(which I doubt anyone would play with) to actually burn/explode you need a mixture of propane and oxygen. This mixture would only exist outside the marker, and only exist if the gas has pooled around the area of the leak. If ignition happens to occur, there would be a puff exterior to the marker, but since no oxygen is held within the macroline, no combustion should occur internally(no exploding airline or exploding marker). The reason no oxygen would be able to infiltrate the marcoline leak is because there is positive pressure internally, meaning the only flow should be propane leaking out, no air entering the system.

I know the idea of using an explosive gas is kind of scary, but a flamable gas needs oxygen to burn, just like an oxygen/HPA tank needs a fuel to burn. In my book they are just as dangerous as each other, but both are completely safe if you can keep the fuel separated from the oxygen(that is till they enter the combustion chamber).



edit: Army, what about if the cheap disposable tanks were used? Or what if we used tanks that were filled by offsite registered users. These tanks would be cheap and also get a large number of shots per fill. In the long run it would be worth it for fields to convert, but just hypothetically speaking, the actual user doesnt need a license or anything right?(anyone can go buy those disposable tanks)

[Chris Nearchos]

i totally agree. it is very safe if used correctly. but lets think about some 14 yr old from pbn playing around with the marker and doing home "mods" to it.

-Chris

[Chris Nearchos]

edit: Army, what about if the cheap disposable takes were used? Or what if we used tanks that were filled by offsite registered users. These tanks would be cheap and also get a large number of shots per fill. In the long run it would be worth it for fields to convert, but just hypothetically speaking, the actual user doesnt need a license or anything right?(anyone can go buy those disposable tanks)


think about the propane cylinders for grills. that should give you an idea for the end user and what he or she will have to deal with.

-Chris

[Hilltop Customs]

same could be said for the 14yo user from pbn using oil to fix their fill nipple leak. Any of these gasses are dangerous in the wrong hands. This is all hypothetical, but I'd think people would realize the danger when they hear propane(espically when their parents are BBQing with it) instead of high pressure air, which doesnt really sound dangerous....at least to me.

[Chris Nearchos]

same could be said for the 14yo user from pbn using oil to fix their fill nipple leak. Any of these gasses are dangerous in the wrong hands. This is all hypothetical, but I'd think people would realize the danger when they hear propane(espically when their parents are BBQing with it) instead of high pressure air, which doesnt really sound dangerous....at least to me.


true, but let me ask you this.


how many people have been killed or seriously injured using compressed air (CO2 or hpa) tanks in paintball? or even in general

now the same question with propane cylinders.


now think of the effect its gonna have with the cost of feild operating cost (insurance) and how that price will effect the end player. increased feild fees, higher paint price, higher price on cylinder filling, etc.


lol, i never knew how much fun it can be playing the bad guy in a idea thread. might have to do this more often. makes me think even harder bout the subject and idea.

-Chris

[Hilltop Customs]

I really dont see why it would increase insurance costs, but then IDK much about paintball insurance

Most other costs should remain about the same between co2/air/propane fills. Its true that fields wouldnt be able to generate their own propane, but they could get bulk tanks filled relatively cheap and easily since propane is a widely available from many sources.

For the death comparison, you have to compare user base also. Or compare death/user ratios. Not many people are exposed to HPA, at least the 4500 psi we use every time we go out to play. The users that I can think of are mainly paintball, scuba, firemen, and I'm sure there are more, but considering the millions of people who grill every weekend using propane, the numbers of users are definitely skewed toward propane. Dont make me bust out King of the Hill on you. :D

[halB]

**Edit**

as for finding a step inbetween comment, let me ask you this. why convert from one gas to another when in the end, your gonna be needing more to make a marker function then what you did with in the begining? while in the process making it more dangerous for people to use?

not trying to kill your idea, just wanted to ask that.


Why? Well, the way I see it, especially after holding an ULE xvalved mag with a stiffi barrel, is we can't really get any more weight savings from the gun. So we have to find weight savings in the next two pieces of weight, the CA tank and the hopper filled with paintballs. A propane tank AND a co2 tank should still weigh less than even a 45/45. I'm merely aiming for a weight saving.

[Ruler_Mark]

Why? Well, the way I see it, especially after holding an ULE xvalved mag with a stiffi barrel, is we can't really get any more weight savings from the gun. So we have to find weight savings in the next two pieces of weight, the CA tank and the hopper filled with paintballs. A propane tank AND a co2 tank should still weigh less than even a 45/45. I'm merely aiming for a weight saving.


It was a deadly wind.

[snoopay700]

Antifreeze would accomplish the very thing i am talking about: absorbing energy. However, CO2 would do it a lot more efficiently and compactly (although it would be a resource that is used up) because it goes through a phase change - just like air conditioning. I just wouldn't bother pumping it back into a liquid...

or... would there be enough excess energy from the propane explosion TO convert it back into a liquid...

but then, you'd just be moving the heat to another part of the gun. So I guess exhausting the used CO2 would be the best decision.

edit: It would be two tanks, the CO2 would never be combined with the propane.
No, no antifreeze wouldn't, because anti freeze would only cool the gun until the antifreeze became hot, that's why you would need some kind of radiator/heatsink. However, like i said, heat is the least of your worries with a propane powered gun, the C3 is pump not because it could spew fire, because it would be very very hard to get any semi propane gun to spew fire, probably impossible, the problem lies with getting it to cycle. If you used co2 in conjunction with this you could in theory make a semi gun by making it a cocker sort of marker, however then the co2 would freeze up the 3-way and such and you would have problems there. As for a purely propane powered semi, it would be near impossible to do because you need to get the exhaust in, then get fresh air in, there wouldn't be enough excess energy to do that, that's why they made it pump.

[Spider-TW]

I wasnt aware of anyone that had a marker fully powered by a battery. I'd be curious how they actually propelled the paintball, a magnetic ram or some other means.
Iirc, it had a rechargeable battery and a small compressor. Kind of like putting one of those emergency tire pumps and a tool battery on a low pressure marker. I think the max rate of fire was like 6 bps, but I think it had some other rate limit, like balls per minute...

I would like to know if it sounded like it looked.

[Spider-TW]

As for a purely propane powered semi, it would be near impossible to do because you need to get the exhaust in, then get fresh air in, there wouldn't be enough excess energy to do that, that's why they made it pump.
I wouldn't be surprised if Tippmann had a reciprocating setup (or at least partially operable semi) in a shop closet. Recocking then should just be a matter of a larger combustion chamber; but I agree, small engine maintenance and weight would not be practical. :)

[snoopay700]

I wouldn't be surprised if Tippmann had a reciprocating setup (or at least partially operable semi) in a shop closet. Recocking then should just be a matter of a larger combustion chamber; but I agree, small engine maintenance and weight would not be practical. :)
Well yeah, it's possible but it gets much less practical to do everything. Honestly i would put a little 4 oz co2 tank on it, make it mech, and then make it into a cocker pretty much, that would be the easiest solution, however you could probably find a way to use more gas and make it cycle the marker, but it would be hard to get the thing to reciprocate, moving backward and getting the spent gas out might not be a problem, but getting air and more gas in would. It would be more trouble than it's worth i'm thinking.

[Spider-TW]

Ryobi Paintball :eek: