Emag and Retro valve triggers in NPPL?

[nutz]

in this thread wickedairsportz says that the president of the nppl has determinded that a gun in semi must pull once and release once manually per shot... does this mean the end of the emag in the nppl?????

http://pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=54337

also he says that anyone caught "stroking" the trigger during a game will be pulled from that game... does this mean sweet spoting an emag or RT trigger is illigal in nppl terms?? :confused: im so confused!!!!!

[ThePatriot]

Doesnt the retro only fire once per trigger pull?? And E-Mags too? I dont know because i own neither....could u do some explaining as to what it is they do.

Thnx

[Restola]

i just got my emag yesterday, and put about 800 shots through it. as far as i can find there is no spot on the trigger that will fire and doesnt require an intentional hand movement.

[headcase]

It will in the hybrid mode. You might have to play with your input pressure a little to adjust the reactivity, buy mine is rediculously easy to bounce right now.

[nutz]

see what headcase is saying is that there is a spot on the emag trigger that can shoot with just u holding ur finger there... this can also be done with my friends stock RTpro very easyily... i was wondering if this broke nppl rules... :confused:

[RT 01037]

no it does not break the rule, because evean tho the trigg bounces it still moves back and counts as a pull.

[nutz]

alright thanks for ur help:D

[Wayland Fong]

i'd like to clarify something. even though the trigger moves back and forth, that doesn't necessarily make it legal. because the fine print on the NPPL rules says semi-automatic requires you to make a physical exertion to pull the trigger. in other words, bouncing the trigger is not allowed, because the trigger is doing all the work. i do believe that under the current rules, RTs and Emags are allowed, as long as the reactivity is set low enough so that you cannot bounce the trigger. however, RTs and Emags go under a very gray area in the rulebook, so perhaps someone else can shed light on this.

[Temo Vryce]

OK let me say something that might make it a little clearer for you guys. They are talking about a complete trigger pull, (hold for a sec) and release. If the marker fires a single round then it is legal. They are stating that Burst, FullAuto, Double Fire, Turbo and othe fancy modes are not legal. The NPPL has stated that the Automag RT is a legal marker and therefore the RetroValve and all markers using it are legal for play. I hope this help to clarify it for you.

[nutz]

alright thanks temo that helps a bunch but what about sweetspoting the trigger?

[Temo Vryce]

Sweet spotting is still legal because it's hard to hit that spot and hold it there. Try it some time in a game and you'll see what I mean. I used an RT and E-mag and it's hard to maintain that sweet spot even still some people can fire fast normally than the marker will when in the sweet spot.

Even with the sweet spot the RT/Retro Valve is only able to fire once per complete pull and release. That's what they want. Now if NPPL does all markers that aren't strickly semi you'll find that a lot more people are going to start carrying E-Mags, RTs and Retro Mags just for the Sweet spot.

I hope this helps you out.

[j7million]

Is that like a reactive trigger on a tippmann?

[speedballbanks]

it is different with the tippman kit because the tippman kit you dont have to exert any force because the trigger is so touchy but i think the rule states that you have to pull it all the way back and all the way forward and if you exert enough force all the way back and all the way forward i think it wont shoot a milion times so i think you will be fine did this help?

[nutz]

alright i know this is an old thread, but i gotta bring this back up... I would like to possibly have tom or someone from the AGD factory teams clear this up... lately alot of crap has been going around with my friends and i at my local field. I am the only one who shoots an emag and everyone i meet or see tells me i would be pulled instantly from a tourny game if i sweet spoted or as some called it trigger bounced. i can see what all the above posts say but it still comes up very often and i just dont know what to do... also some people say that it is hard to sweet spot in game, but i find that after shooting my emag for the months that ive had it, i can hit the sweet spot whenever i want even in games.


Also the new level 10 emag and the newest halos i see going 20 bps in the vidoes... does this mean the emag could sweet spot all it wanted with the halo??? i am wondering this because i may be considering getting one if i find out more about the rules on sweet spoting or trigger bounce...

[RT_Luver]

I know i'm not TOm or anyone form AGD, but as far as i know, the E-mag is 100% tourny capable(or whatever you would call it) what above when you said that only guns that fire one shot per pull and release of the trigger are aloud. well your confusing the rt's(and retro, and e-mag) REACTIVE trigger with an auto REPSONSE trigger. the difference is that reactive trigger is when the trigger is pushed back into firing position pulling the trigger with gasfrom your tank(this is where it gets it name reactive, and why peole are wondering what pressure to set their tank at). auto repsonse(which the Emagnum board is capable of) is when 1 ball is fired after pulling the trigger and 1 after fully releasing the trigger. I believe that as long as your hand(or trigger) is moving, the NPPL or any other tourny group will allow the e-mag(on any stage) to be allowd in tournies. I mean, sure the e-mag has the shortest trigger pull. but if you ban one gun because you don't ahve to move your finger alot, is VERY hypicritical(sp?). again, I'm not AGD or even a HUGE tourny event plyer but I believe that if they make a rule out lawing the e-mag it will effect other guns also


just my $.02

[nutz]

i do know the difference between autoresponse trigger...

im talking about sweet spoting... when im at my local field and i run out of paint, i usually find a bunker with a less experienced player and show them how to shoot the emag fast and help them out a little. well last time i was with one i was showing him how to sweet spot the emag and the ref comes over and says excuse me but no full auto at this field, so i raise my arm and walk off the field to where the ref is standing. i go this is not full auto, i am using the sweet spot in my reactive trigger. i left him shoot my gun and show him how to do it and hes like ah i see what u were doing. after this he starts to question wether he would allow me to play with it in a tourny. i try to explain its still one pull per shot but he refuses to believe me...

this happens many times and many different ways.. im looking for if i can do this in a tourny or not

[SlipknotX556]

Responce trigger is when you pull the trigger back it fires on ball, when you release the trigger it fired another. Also I dont think its illegal to use RT's or Emags in the NPPL tournys because the manaul mode and Electric mode and Hybird mode all for ONE ball when the trigger is pulled.

[Army]

They are legal, since the bolt is fully locked by the sear before release, requiring another full pull of the trigger.

Even sweet-spotting lets the bolt lock on the sear fully. If the bolt is NOT locked, the gun short-strokes and you will chop.:cool:

[nutz]

thanks for giving me a little more info... i think i know now... next time i got to a tourny i will ask about it before we play

[shartley]

Actually, ARMY, I hate to disagree, but I disagree. The markers are legal, and so is the valve… but when you make it Sweet Spot, that is not legal.

And why is clearly posted in the following thread. (so no need for me to retype it. ;))
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37412

[thei3ug]

all of this was determined years ago. automag RTs are allowed because they do not force the player into sweet spotting.

Forced trigger returns, as in Reflex kits and tippmann RT kits are not allowed because they are automatic sweet spotters, no ifs ans or butts.

"stroking" is a different issue, which I think is a crap rule that needs to be reworded. The problem is for every "push and return" movement on a "stroke", you're getting two balls. But still there is nothing inherintly illegal about the trigger setup. You're now making a way of activating the trigger illegal. It's akin in my eyes to saying that certain poses are illegal.

What I want to know is whether recoil bounce is allowed, where the action of the marker, when the trigger is held right, can actually cause a simulated "bounce." It used to be, but it was iffy when were shipping excaliburs with it tuned that way.

[Ityl]

I believe what determines it is if the ref asks you to pull the trigger once that only one ball must be fired. So you can sweet spot it, as long as when you want to fire one ball, only one ball is fired, so if it is too reactive, it's illegal.

[Army]

A check of the Pan-Am and NPPL rules shows that they do not prohibit "sweet-spotting" or rate of fire, and only require one shot for one pull of the trigger

In order for the Automag valve to discharge correctly, the bolt must be fully returned to the rear, and the on/off valve to have dumped air into the firing chamber. When the sear releases the bolt, another complete cycle will occur.

Bouncing still allows the bolt to sear lock, and the on/off to work as designed. You may not be physically pointing your finger away from the trigger, for the RT valve has done that for you by overpowering the pressure from your finger. When the RT pressure has ceased, your finger again pulls the trigger just by you NOW having more pressure against it than the on/off and sear can withstand.

Any way you look at it, it is still a full pull and release. Your finger MUST pull the trigger for each shot.

[RT_Luver]

I dont know about everyone else(and apperently it shows) but I like the double trigger look better then the blade trigger look for some reason, so I'm set when I get my extreme. I dont have to get another trigger,lol

[nutz]

this is a very unknown and inconclusive subject i think... possibly tom can shed light on this.


i do like what armys saying tho... lol

[Oddball]

E-mags and RT/ReTro's are 100% legal at every toury I have ever been too. Our team has been checked twice for being full auto (Timmy at Cal-Jam last year and Butch at Challenge Cup last week). Both were in Electonic mode, not hybride (sp?), and both were legal. The refs were just not use to seeing ppl shot so fast. Hybride mode is also legal at tourys. I went to the IAO last year and Mardi Gras (which uses NPPL rules) this year with no issues reguarding E-mags. Well except that some refs don't know to chrono them in manual. I am not really sure what "stroking" the trigger is but I guess it is the same as "fanning" the trigger.

[blnk162]

Originally posted by Temo Vryce
OK let me say something that might make it a little clearer for you guys. They are talking about a complete trigger pull, (hold for a sec) and release. If the marker fires a single round then it is legal. They are stating that Burst, FullAuto, Double Fire, Turbo and othe fancy modes are not legal. The NPPL has stated that the Automag RT is a legal marker and therefore the RetroValve and all markers using it are legal for play. I hope this help to clarify it for you.

You dont have to hold it for a second considering how people are shooting at 12bps..

[Alli_Delta]

First of all I see a lot of confusion in the terms all of you are using here... Allow me to put in my ten pence (Yes I'm English and I'm a PA qualified ref.)

Semi-auto: One trigger pull = 1 shot

Trigger pull: The action of moving the trigger from the fully forward position to the fully depressed state and releasing the trigger to the fully forward position.

Trigger bounce: Trigger bounce is not exclusively limited to the emag. Trigger bounce can and will occur on any marker that has a light enough trigger and sufficient vibration to cause the trigger to become pulled again by the recoil of firing the marker. This mainly occurs on electronic markers.

Reactive trigger: A reactive trigger comes under the following. It is an assisted trigger, You need to pull say 4 lb's of pressure on the trigger to make the marker fire, then the marker pushes the trigger back with a return force of say 7 lb's. This resets the mechanism of the trigger then because the trigger only takes 4 lb's of pressure to pull, the marker fires again. However if you pull and hold the trigger firmly it will only discharge 1 shot. The following markers MAY have reactive triggers depending on the model: Tippman Model98 (With reactive trigger kit) Tippman A5 (with reactive trigger kit) Automag RT, Automag RT pro, Automag Emag.

The other trigger you guys have been metioning is the old 1 pull 2 shots. You pull the trigger the marker fires you release the trigger the marker fires again. This type of trigger is NOT tourny legal.

Sweet spotting: This again refers to reactive triggers and electronic markers that are suffering from trigger bounce. I have an emag and if I turn the output pressure from my air system to around the 1000 psi area I can sustain around 18 Bps very easily using the reactive trigger mode. The actual meaning of sweet spotting is holding the trigger in such a way that the marker appears to fire fully automatically however if you were to look at the trigger you would see that it is actually moving back and forth for every shot. Sweet spotting can also refer to an electronic marker ie. Timmy or EBlade that has such a short trigger pull that the marker again fires very quickly due to the vibration caused by the cycling of the marker This IS trigger bounce and is Illegal In the UK, However you will need to verify this with the governing body of the tourny you are playing.

In the uk we have also gone one step further and banned reactive triggers altogether from tourny play, on the grounds that the marker is "assisting" with the pulling of the trigger.

Hope some of this helps try and clear the fog of bounging and reactive triggers.

[GT]

Originally posted by Alli_Delta
First of all I see a lot of confusion in the terms all of you are using here... Allow me to put in my ten pence (Yes I'm English and I'm a PA qualified ref.)


I am neither, however I can read dates on how old threads are...;)

[felony]

i was just playing in local tourny and was at the chrono station when a ref brought this up. he kindly asked me to let him shoot it to check for a sweet spot and i let him have it. he said there, lookin at the trigger and pulling it in every whcih way to make it fire illegally in manual mode.

i sat there and watched him put 150% effort into making my marker bounce so to speak and was like... uh i dont think ill be doin that in a game.

long story short, we got a real ref in there and he said just so you cant hold it and easily get a sweetspot that it is unavoidable with mags and that is pretty darn true.

Emags are legal. I do not think AGD would go as far as to make a marker like that and produce it not the specs of the current rules w/o letting the public know. that would just be silly

dan

[Beemer]

Good Thread I missed some how.

Come on gtrsi it doesnt matter how old it is when it is still relevant.

This is the second time I want to bring back "How Fast Are You Really" thread

True Semi 1 shot one pull. Although RT can be tourny legal it doesnt make it true semi.

FYI Alli_Delta This is how ASTM defines these terms which were submitted by a subcommittee of 41 people.


semi-automatic mode marker—a semi-automatic
marker discharges one time with each TRIGGER CYCLE. Markers
that “store” the number of trigger pulls and discharge more
than one paintball at some point do not meet this definition.
Markers that operate in any other discharge mode(s) do not
meet this definition

TRIGGER CYCLE—the movement of the trigger through
discharge and returning to a reset or recycle position.

[AGD]

You know this has been coming up every 6 months for about 7 years now.

THE OFFICIAL WORD:

Reative triggers are LEGAL if they DO NOT runaway or double shoot. Markers that are tweeked to runaway from ANY manufacturer are not allowed in most tournaments UNTIL they are tuned down and no longer do it.

Think about what makes sense here for a minute and maybe we can kill this persistent rumor off. If the guns were banned from tournaments we would have changed the design like half a decade ago to comply. We still sell them, lots of guys use them in tournaments and we keep telling you they are ok unless you screw them up yourself.

Overpressuring the marker so it bounces just screws up your bolt and sear and makes you think you are better than you really are. If your buddies believe ancient rumors every time they hear them then they are dumber than they think they are.

AGD

[GT]

Originally posted by Beemer
FYI Alli_Delta This is how ASTM defines these terms which were submitted by a subcommittee of 41 people.


see the problem here is the ANSI and ASTM standards are just that standards and not rules. So unless WE the cosumer require them from the maunfacture there will never become desirble to manufacture...

[Beemer]

we keep telling you they are ok unless you screw them up yourself.

Overpressuring the marker so it bounces just screws up your bolt and sear and makes you think you are better than you really are.
Enough said