i think mags are slowly dwindleing away..

[WiccanWarlord]

today,at the paintball feild i made an amazing discovery. cockers outnumbermags about 5 to 1. my freind cj and i were the onlyones withmags, and there was.. about 7 black magics being ussed by11 year olds, i kid you not. thats no exxageration,and one kid was comlaining that he got that. because he wanted an angle instead.. ughh.. i hope it isnt like that at your freilds.. tyhat would be unfortunate.:(

[WiccanWarlord]

dont get me wrong, my friend an i love ours, and would take them over a cocker anyday. but i just dont understand what makes cockers so apealing

[a_malfunction]

Maybe at your field! Last time I went to my feild 1/2 to 2/3 of the people had mags. I really dont think they are going anywhere.

[Hysperion]

All i have to say is that most fields don't allow children under 12 on their fields in the first place.....And unsupervised it's usually between 14-16.....

[strongboy2005]

at the field i play at there are anywhere from 20-30 people every saturday. about 5 - 10 of them have low end semi autos. then 2 - 4 of them have angels, 3 - 5 have mags, and 6 - 7 tote cockers. at the field i play mags outnumber angels, but are slightly lower than cockers and low end semi autos

[WiccanWarlord]

my field has a ten year old limit.. well.. i guess my field sucks then, i swear all i saw today was cockers and model 98's

[AGDRules]

Mags will never die!

On another note.. sometimes I feel the same way, but in my area there arent a lot of high quality guns, I shoot a RT Pro and in my area ur lucky to see a cocker letalone a mag.

But I like the feeling of being the OutKast with the mag hehe.

[WiccanWarlord]

it ussed to be like that here (el paso tx) but then all of the sudden the 2 scubba shops on thew west side(where i live) started filling nitro, gennisis paintball opened a feild and 2 stores here, and now instead f talons and spyders i see shockers cockers and every once in a while an angel. i was just saying, its alittle akward when there are only 2 mags out or 25 people.. haha.. poor people.. they may never know the glory of a mag.. i think one problem people have with mags is theres nothing to mill. i dont really want to mill mine, but thats what 4 or 5 of the cocker an or shocker/imppy guys said they didnt like.. that might be an idea there.. hmm im getting ahead or my self.. ill shut up now

[Potatoboy]

At the field today there were 7 or 8 mags, forgot to get a real good count, and then when I wanted to get a count and take pictures a couple people had already left. One of the refs actually went out to his car and brought in his classic just so he could fit in with us. None of them were AO members, but I told them about the site. Strange how mag owners seem to have a strange comradely even without being AO members...

[nutz]

mags will never die... they are the semi that revolutionized paintball to what it is today... mags stand for quality and service and mags will survive forever because theyre design leaves so much room for changes and is very simple...


Long live the mag!!! :D

[Army]

I tell ya, it's that back-block.....phisst in, shwip out, phisst in, shwip out. It's some kind of addiction, man!

[IceCool32]

Originally posted by Army
I tell ya, it's that back-block.....phisst in, shwip out, phisst in, shwip out. It's some kind of addiction, man!

Army kids you not.

Kids- Autocockers are not toys to be played with, they'll break just as easy as that $3 action figure Grandpa Neddy bought you.

Men-Automags...Strong.Reliable.Built Like a Rock......wait, isn't that the Chevy commerical?

[Paintchucker]

I keep trying to kill my 1993 minimag, but it has more life than the energizer bunny. It will never die! And I don't think AGD is going anywhere anytime soon...

I think the thing about cockers, is that they have a very high "fiddle with" factor. Mags are boring. You can't mill them, and all you have to do is put in a few drops of oil, chrono, and every so often put in a parts kit. Also the guns are pretty much tourney ready out of the box. There aren't a lot of add-on parts needed.

[mountaindud]

at my local fields:
Country Club Paintball - 33% Mags
Challenge Park - 3 People - Me and my friends

[FeelTheRT]

it's been like that for a while... there will always be more Cockers and Angels. Those are the most commonly used guns.

[HyperSnyper]

Well today, there werent that many Mags nor Cockers since there were mostly rentals, but the last time I played (when my Hyperframe wasnt tuned well), there were 5 Mags, some Spyders, Tippmans, and ZERO COckers.

There is alot of reasons about the Cockers appeal that seem to be either preference or false.

Cockers are more expensive $$$ Most people think expensive means better performing.

Cockers have Kewl Pneumatics in the front.

Cockers have a back block that moves back and forth.

Cockers have almost an unlimited upgrade path of parts that have marginal improvements in performace.

Cockers have that false rumor/myth that closed bolt has better accuracy and range... 2 letters... B S ! (been proven false by many people)

There are some people on other forums bringing up the topic that "Jax Warriors sucked because they used sucky guns (referring to Mags), and its the main reason why they didnt place" "Now that they are sponsored by WGP, and will be shooting Cockers, they should end up batter"

NEWS FLASH. Jax Warriors swapped over to their other guns, Angels and Cockers, and they still didnt place.

People on PBNation are so closed minded about non-Cocker/Angel guns. Geeez. We'll see if they are right in the 2002 season.

-Hyper (brows forrowed in frustration)

[MajorDamage]

Today at my field there were two Emags(one was mine), a ReTroMag(Mine also...friend's classic valve was screwin up, so I lent it to him), and about two other classic mags. Now I saw a total of one autococker. There were probably more mags than any other gun there, although there was a bunch of Shockers and Impys also. But the mag will never die! Everyone who shot my Emag just about creamed their pants :D! A guy on my team was planning on getting one, and said he is definetly gonna get one now and should have it by next week. I even had an Angel owner who always tells me Mags are gay tell me after shooting the Emag "You know...Thats really nice" :D!

ENDO!

[bornl33t]

by the way ... wiccan weren't you banned ??? I think you got banned a few months ago for causeing mistif... just like this! hmmm.......

[nastymag]

hey wiccan .... their is more feilds in El paso .. danm i got to go there in the summer

well i own an autococker and for the first few weeks that back bkocl clicky action is so sweet till you got you fingers stuck in it

it also gets boring.

well at my feilds ( danm i wish we had 20 -30 crowds instead of our 50-80 )
there is a crap load of autococker and angels
so many angels like 7 to 12 every time
and at least 15 cockers
there is always about 6 mags
( my sis and dad for one )

im getting angel ( led ) soon but still love and play with my dads mag when i can

[shartley]

Actually, I hear that all the time from players, field owners and shop owners. So, it is not really causing mischief by stating it… not at all.

The percentage of AGD Markers VS others is VERY low. But so is the percentage of Lamborghinis to other cars on the street. So I guess it is all in how you look at things. Is it a good thing, or a bad thing? I guess it would all depend on the last time a Lamborghini was sold, and if they sell at a rate that allows the company to stay in business. But JUST low percentages on the road does not mean anything in itself.

The problem is that I see Mag owners playing BOTH sides of the fence. They want to do direct comparisons with all other markers when it is convenient to do so… and then want to make distinctions that put them apart from other markers when it is not. Which is it? And depending on how you look at it, it will change the meaning of any numbers, stats, perceptions, etc.

I also think this is part of AGD’s problem in the marketplace. If you want to go “head to head” with all the rest, you are going to HAVE to change some things. If not, you are going to have to market to a different group of folks, and go AROUND the other guys. This is actually not hard to do. But you can’t want it both ways and GET it both ways. Do you see Lamborghini marketing like VW Bugs, or trying to sell head to head against them? So why should AGD try to do this against other markers? (But I have hinted at this for quite some time now.)

And sorry, no amount of “my gun is great” will change the stats. And personally, I don’t even listen to anyone claiming that a crowd of folks shot their Mag this weekend and LOVED it…… Not because I don’t believe them, but because what really matters is how many were willing to drop their current marker and purchase a Mag? Until that happens, it really doesn’t matter that they loved it or not. It sounds great on a Mag forum, but does not translate into sales numbers that help AGD. I am sure Tom would rather hear that you got 1 person to buy a Mag this past weekend, than hear that every weekend you get 10 people who say how nice it is, but still continue to shoot their other brand of marker.

I am NOT however, saying to stop showing your Mags…. But what I am saying is to keep an honest and realistic view on what is happening. And AO is NOT a true reflection of what is happening in the Paintball Community (for the most part). But that is not a bad thing, AO is a club for MAG owners. But to move product, you have to get rid of the AGD haze and look at things like the rest of the world does…. right or wrong.

As for Mags at Country Club…. LOL Only 33%? Some might call this a good thing, but since Tom Kaye uses that as his “home” field (or so it sure seems), you would expect a much higher percentage. And that is probably the highest ratio in the country.

Just things to think about.

[HyperSnyper]

Originally posted by shartley
And sorry, no amount of “my gun is great” will change the stats. And personally, I don’t even listen to anyone claiming that a crowd of folks shot their Mag this weekend and LOVED it…… Not because I don’t believe them, but because what really matters is how many were willing to drop their current marker and purchase a Mag? Until that happens, it really doesn’t matter that they loved it or not.

As I do recall in an old thread, I beleive AGD was at a big NPPL event (hmmm was it the IAO... hard to remember), where there were actually Angels owners ttrading their Angels over to Tom Kaye for some Emags.

I beleive Tom actually posted pics of the Angels that were traded.

AGD is like a paintball missionary, spreading the Good Word and converting those in the dark side toward the light and the truth. LOL =)


-Hyper

[rhetor22]

hehe, there's gunna be 900 replies to this by the end of the week. :D

Mags aren't as popular as they used to be, but i think the introduction of the emag and especialy the sexy SFL, not to mention the beautiful woman that comes with the gun.

People will realize that mags are great little guns.

[shartley]

HyperSnyper
You are very correct… but the last time I knew, Tom was not at every field in the country. He is also not at every event, or even at standard weekend play. This is not a cut, but a look at reality.

The problem with a lot of the stuff on here is that people take things in “special” situations and try to apply them to the real world of “Average Joe Paintballer” and the average fields. What happens at major events is not even CLOSE to being an accurate reflection for the true world of paintball… the one made up of Local Fields, Shops, Rec Players, etc.

And I am sorry to say, THAT is what makes up the majority of the Industry. And until you see people at LOCAL fields, on NORMAL weekends, seeing how great the Mag is, and willing to drop their normal marker and buy a Mag (And NOT prompted by the OWNER of AGD at a special event.. which is the example you pointed out.), the sales of Mags will not see much of a difference. Of course unless the points I mentioned in my other post are looked at seriously and acted upon.

If I am WRONG, how come the sale of Mags has not already seen a HUGE increase? How come the average field has not seen a substantial rise in the percentages of MAGS VS Other Markers? Simply put, the situation you mentioned (which is a REAL situation.. granted) is only good for sound bytes and hype.. but really did not increase the actual sales of the markers…. or why have we not see it on the average field?

I will say once again, KEEP sporting and showing off your Mags….. but you can not take an isolated case of Mag trades in a “special” environment and apply that to the way the Industry as a whole is reacting to the Mag.. or should I say, NOT reacting to it. I did not make this all up, ask you local dealers and fields. Read in other threads about other AGD products and how dealers refuse to sell them. There are reasons for this (some valid, some not) but I did not create the situation. And refusing to SEE it does not help any.

This also does not mean the Mag is not a FANTASTIC Marker… it IS. But this thread hits on many issues that are preventing it from taking over (or even being a major player) in the Industry… no matter how much people on AO want to think it is, or deserves to be. How many times have people complained that they can not get an AGD product locally, so they had to buy directly from AGD on their new Online Store…. But people would like to think that AGD started that Online Store JUST to offer another place to get stuff? Please, let’s be just a bit more realistic about it.

There is so much to this situation that so many just refuse to see, or choose to ignore. AGD could close up shop tomorrow (Heaven forbid) and a large portion of AO would blame everyone BUT AGD. They would make up excuses why the Mag did not sell as well as it should have, or could have, and none of them would lead back to AGD. And the simple truth to the matter is, you can have the best product in the world, but if it does not move off the shelves, dealers will not stock it, and in turn the average person will not even see it…. but for a few owners they run into now and again (or the owner of the company at special events making isolated trades.. but why would anyone HAVE to trade? I know I buy products because they are good, no matter what I am currently using. The trades were about publicity, but it stopped, for the most part, directly after the event.).

The perception is, “If it is so great, why don’t you see it everywhere?” “If it is so great, why does my local shop NOT carry it?”… it all goes back to previous threads about how what the Dealer wants, The Manufacturer wants, and the Customer wants, can sometimes be totally different things…. And unless you look at all three and develop a strategy to compensate for them all, your product tends to become stagnant… and in the world of business, if you are not moving, you are dead. First it is only the perception.. then it becomes reality.

But Mag owners will always be able to come back to the nest on AO and receive comfort… no matter how unrealistic it is. Few industries would survive on CURRENT customers…. Growth is key. And AO thrives on current customers…. It is a club for current customers. And that is not a bad thing, but something that must be taken into consideration.

And too many times AO members want to use situations FAR from being the average, and apply them to ALL things concerning the Mag….. this does not help one bit. And that was my point, “special” situations and “special” sales can not be used as an indication of ACTUAL standings in the market. They are great for publicity, but don’t actually help your books much (in this case).

So, I will say again…. When more Mags are sold at the local level, more Mags are seen on the local fields, and less “Gee nice marker. But I will stick with mine.”… THAT will indicate a change in AGD’s position in the real paintball world. And I look forward to that day. Just because a product IS sold, does not mean it is a “force to be reckoned with” in the industry… no matter how loyal their customers are.

And as rhetor22 just stated:

Mags aren't as popular as they used to be, but i think the introduction of the emag and especialy the sexy SFL, not to mention the beautiful woman that comes with the gun.

People will realize that mags are great little guns.
This is VERY true (minus the woman part.. LOL). But anyone who thinks the Mag is NOT rare (or would the word Popular be better?) now days (in comparison to any other marker) is fooling themselves. And this is just MY analysis of the situation. I could be wrong, some people may disagree with me, or whatever…. AO is for all sides, right? And ultimately AGD is the one to determine their plans of action (or inaction).. not the general AO Membership, although quite a few seem to think differently. ;)

Hey, not liking the truth does not make it untrue. :D

[Hysperion]

Well my first gun was a used 68 automag about 2 years ago...then four months ago I bought a brand new rt pro with a factory installed intelliframe the first week intelliframe came out...now I own an SFL....In my opinion there is no better looking gun then the SFL, angels don't come close in any form or milling. I'm just hoping those good folks at adrenalin make an extreme, ill drop this shocktech shiznit in a minute. :) The only thing I can say is I'm a little disappointed that AGD dropped its lifetime warranty on its markers, I would've rather them charged more for the marker upfront but I totally see why they did it and don't blame them for it....

[Whisky]

yes there are more cockers out there than mags..so... there are more spyders out there than cockers...so... not every body likes quality. Mags owners do.
nuff said.

[Hysperion]

And btw when I go to paintball dave's in downtown milwaukee I usually see more mags then cockers. In fact the whole reason I got into mags in the first place was because they rent them (charge you extra though) at paintball daves and before I had my own I'd always rent one of their mags instead of the normal piranha. If they had rented cockers, I probably would've fallen into the dark side :)....Not really I actually plan on getting a Black Magic for outdoor and use my SFL for indoor.....I think that AGD's problem is that you can buy a nice shiny autococker for around 300 and the comparable mag looks like a plain piece of *crap*. Maybe once AGD has the extreme body for its other guns.......

[SGTKennedy]

another thing is that how much has a mag changed since 93? not a whole lot... some minor insides different, but the marker LOOKS the same. look at an old cocker. look at a new cocker. it must be better. you can see different parts.

[WiccanWarlord]

heat, you must be mistaken, i only got back on this forum no more than a few weeks ago, and i was off for about 6 months. and it was NOT because i was banned either. just to let you know, its not exacly mischief either, its an observation i made.

[WiccanWarlord]

the problem might just be that a stock mag doesnt really apeal to the people who are into looks above other things,a nd a good percent of thatmarket are like that, dont get my wrong, im not saying ide buy an ughly gun but look at cockers, hwo many diferent variation can you have? hundreds.. the agd techs gt really lucky and hit a design that was so faar ahead of its time that its still ussed today, and it hasnt changed much, i bet if mags came stock in black or chrome bodys, it might catch more peoples eye, and agd would sell more, and they could invent more cool stuff for us to play with

[pumpamatic]

What I never seem to understand is why so many average paintballers care whether or not they have the gun everybody else does. Most of my friends shoot spyders, does that make my mag a bad gun because nobody uses it? I could honestly care less how many people at my local field are shooting a mag. Now when AGD goes totally bankrupt, I may care, but I don't see that happening.

[polorboy]

At my feild today there were 7 mags, 3 cockers, and two angels. I would not say that Mags are on there way out, if anything they are becoming more popular, a little bit. Cockers still are a little bit more popular but not by much. This does not have much to do with mags but this guy who I play with has only been playing for 6 months and he has already gone through 3 guns. In this order he first got a Tippmann 98 cutsom, second he bought a Cocker and two weeks later bought a dark angel. I have shot both cockers and mags ( I own a mag so duh :)...) but I actually like my freinds cocker trigger better than my mags. His is a lot shorter than my mag. Also my mag has a really snappy trigger pull, y freinds cocker has a really easy trigger pull. I can actually get more shots off with my freinds cocker in semi than I can with my mag because of the ease of trigger pull. Still I will always use my mag because it is so reliable and easy to take care of.

[Dude]

At my field today in the walk-on group there were about thirty people shooting:
2- Emags
4- Automags
3- Autocockers
4- Intimidators
3- Angels
1- Shocker

And the rest were rental Tippmanns, spyders and owned Tippmanns.

[j7million]

Why care how many people use mags? So long as business is good for ADG then let all those that don't use mags get shot by them :-)

[WiccanWarlord]

good piont..

[hitmanng]

I have never seen more than 3 mags at a field except at scenarios and then they are right after the tippmans. In most cases they are still respected though. In Indiana in the ICC they are looked down on a little as most players have angels super cockers or Eclipses. Some BM2K's as low end. There are spiders and tippmans but also looked down on from what I see. I think the e-mag hasn;t hit it yet but with the Modulars and Tom and JJ's hard work at tourneys they are comming back.
Hitmanng

[Cardinal_Biggles]

Since buying my mag over a year ago, i've gotten at least three people to lay down their tippmanns, spyders, and f4's for mags. Before this last year, I had seen maybe two mags in the entirety of my playing experience, and now I see at least a handfull each time I go out. Unfortunately though, the last time anybody has seen a z-grip around here was several years ago; half of the store owners don't even know what youre talking about when you ask about one, but that too is about to change;) . I can already see my new nickel IZ-grip astounding the natives...
Converting paintballers to the only true way, one at a time.

[liigod]

Yup i can go weekends at my feild without seeing a single mag. The only consistant on is the one that a guy left at the shop and never came back for. Its the loaner gun now, not that mags are bad or anything, i love shooting them, im just saying. But im shure with e mags, people will start seeing the light.

[SGTKennedy]

my team and my friends flood our local indoors with Mags. its great.

[ben_JD]

Originally posted by j7million
...So long as business is good for ADG then let all those that don't use mags get shot by them...I'm not sure that business is all that good right now.

[sifu01]

A lot of pro players showcase their 'cockers. I tell you that most people would buy the same underwear of a pro player if it was said that you will play better. My friend owned a paintball store that he opened about 6 years ago. He says that he remembers when 'mags and 'cockers were like apples and oranges....now it seems like cockers are the dominant markers. It's like the old 3DFX vs. Nvidia debate....When you don't really upgrade your technology...you'll end up like 3DFX....'Mags seem to be a little back in the race...they stand a good chance of dwindelling more if things remain this way.

[FooTemps]

Originally posted by sifu01
A lot of pro players showcase their 'cockers. I tell you that most people would buy the same underwear of a pro player if it was said that you will play better. My friend owned a paintball store that he opened about 6 years ago. He says that he remembers when 'mags and 'cockers were like apples and oranges....now it seems like cockers are the dominant markers. It's like the old 3DFX vs. Nvidia debate....When you don't really upgrade your technology...you'll end up like 3DFX....'Mags seem to be a little back in the race...they stand a good chance of dwindelling more if things remain this way.

One thing to argue the opposite. The cocker hasn't changed very much either. The cocker will always work the same no matter what. The better pneus, bolts, and rams don't make it a new gun. Both of these guns would be out of the paintball fad if it went by your rule. Also, the mag is one of the more advanced designs. Being out longer doesn't mean that the design is out dated. The design of the mag is unique, compact, constant, and reliable. You won't see a mag break down as much as a cocker. Sure, the design of the cocker is more complex but that leaves more room for error.

ALSO...

Have you heard of the extreme and slf emags? These two emags are probably the biggest advancement AGD has made. Another innovative design: Modular breaches. Feel like playing vert feed? Swap the breach. Feel like playing warp feed? Swap to a warp breach. The designs is still an automag at heart though. It uses the same blow forward design.

[deded]

I think as far as we (the online paintball community) go, it just depends which forum or site, you get brainwashed... er "influenced" by first/most.

I personally am very easily brainwashed...

So I have a pbnation, a pbcity, and an AO...

er I mean... a cocker, an angel (led), and a minimag.

:D

We just have to remember that what is going on on the boards of all forums may be different then what is going on in the mind of the non-internet-addict paintballer... who knows what percentage of paintballers do not get their info on the net?

just my two old corroded pennies!:D

(spelling is probably bad... spell checked si nto werkinge!)

[Predater]

i love the look of cockers. i always wanted to own one when i was young. but when i had the mony to buy i thaught about the gun's. you got the cocker that looks kool and has a milion after market products and is suvearely heavy (definatly the 95, 96 models). and it will break doun all the time. or you can buy a mag. they come factery top of the line and turny ready.

to most they arnt that cool looking thow. i ended up with a mag. i loved it enough that i baught an rt after it came out and plan to eventuly get an emag. i have had 5 people try to buy my old standerd feed mag but i refuse to sell it because it is a great gun and its nice to have 2 compleat guns that have no mantinance. one kid that tried to buy my gun sold his 2001 shocker to buy an old smart mag.

i have decided that kids buy the cocker because it looks cool. they dont buy strictly by which is the overall beter gun.

[ronron2112]

my lil paintball computer game is kinda old but every pic in it all the guys have mags, and i dont see anyother guns..
but on the field, i still see the same, maybe more.. so theyre not going out as fast as you think.. AGD is still gonna be one of the leading companyies for years to come.

[KamikazePenguin]

well, if they are, we can all be glad that we've got ours and feel sorry for those that missed the oppurtunity