Smacking Paint with SuperBolt

[HyperSnyper]

Hey Guys,
I got another question about the Superbolt I just came up with after my Superbolt Dwell Post. With the lighter weight of the Superbolt, wouldnt it accelerate faster?

By acclerating faster, then by the time it collides with the paint, it would be at an abnormally higher speed than normal.

Think about it...

Since the SB acclerates faster vs the Stainless Bolt, by the time both bolts impact the paint, the Superbolt will have a higher collision speed vs the Stainless Bolts speed upon impact.

Let me know your everyone's thoughts. Or am I just too bored right now?

-Hyper

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

if ya turned down the velocity it would fix it... right?:confused:

[slushee]

well, I may not be a member of Deep Blue, but this is a question i wouldn't mind hearing an answer to. It does seem to me to be a very valid question. I mean, if the bolt can load the paintball and recock faster (resulting in a longer breech opening time), wouldn't that mean that the bolt itself would have to be accelorating faster in both directions? I don't really know how this would affect (or is it effect??) the physical impact of the paintball by the bolt, but it is something that could be quite feasible.

.. just my two cents

[Puckz]

The bolt is also hitting the ball with less force because it weighs less, the actual force may be very close to the same as a stainless bolt. I can't remember the equation off hand and I just got home from the bar so I won't go any further with it.

[ciaran.mooney]

Once you turn down the velocity it will hit that paint at the same speed, it will re-cock faster because the spring can throw it back quicker because its lighter.

[shartley]

The bolt is also hitting the ball with less force because it weighs less, the actual force may be very close to the same as a stainless bolt.Somehow I don’t see the logic of that statement.

If you have an object striking another object at the same speed and it stops impacting at the same distance (given the striking object does not collapse), its relative weight should not matter… the object would still be hit with the same amount of force. The distance the bolt can move and how it hits the ball would be identical no matter if it was made of plastic, wood, lead, or whatever… as long as the bolt did not collapse, it would hit the ball the same (as long as it was moving the same).

We see the lighter is faster, and faster translates into harder in other sports as well…. Take tennis for one. With the first stated theory of a light bolt hitting with less force, all tennis players would prefer a stainless steel racket…. But they do not, they use graphite and carbon fiber ones. Why? Because it allows them to generate more speed, and hit the balls with greater force. It also allows them to do so for much longer amounts of time (thus touching on efficiency).

Wouldn’t that mean that since it is lighter you may end up hitting the ball with MORE force than less because you can generate more bolt speed with the same amount of air (this would make the bolt more efficient as well)….hmmm wonder why I hear about Superbolts breaking paint? The bolt moving too fast and hitting the balls harder? So the addition of a “self-glued” foam tip?

The lighter bolt will allow it to travel inside the marker faster with less air, reduce marker movement caused by the action itself, but should not reduce the force at which it hits the balls…. But actually allow you to hit them harder… which may not be a good thing by itself.


Once you turn down the velocity it will hit that paint at the same speed, it will re-cock faster because the spring can throw it back quicker because its lighter.BINGO! :D

[ciaran.mooney]

And thats without knowing any complicated equations!

[Butterfingers]

Ahh the answer...

KE= 1/2mv^2

KE doubles with mass but quadruples with speed.

Everything is still highly speculative, for all we know the SB may hit the ball with the same force.

swing a sledgehammer at a watermellon as hard as you can, then swing a plastic sledgehammer toy at the watermellon as hard as you can.

Given the same force you can swing the plastic sledge alot faster but which one does more damage?

Im not saying that this is the case cut and dry, that would require mass and velocity figures.

On the same topic but on the flip side a 53 grain .223 remington traveling at 3000fps has more energy than a 230 grain .45 cal traveling at 900fps

In order to determine how much energy is transfered to the ball more information is needed.

[Sledgehammer]

Hey Butterfingers why would you want to swing me at a watermellon??? :confused:

[MagMan5446]

Originally posted by Sledgehammer
Hey Butterfingers why would you want to swing me at a watermellon??? :confused:

I don't know why I found this so funny, but gawddamn I couldn't stop laughing...

[Puckz]

Shartley read what butterfingers said.

Also think of it this way. You can throw a tennis ball at someones nuts... then a throw a baseball at someones nuts at half the speed. Which will hurt more? :)

[Bad Dave]

My understanding of mags and RTs is that the bolt does not hit the ball, it merely pushes it into the breech, as such the superbolt may accelerate the ball faster than other guns, what effect this has is uncertain.

[diehard]

Basic Physics... Total Force = Mass X Speed

Therefore if you reduce one of the componants on the right side of the equation, you reduce the total on the left.

Put in some simple numbers to see how it works

<b>f = ms</b>

9 = 3X3

Reduce mass: 6 = <b>2</b>X3

You reduced force from 9 to 6 just by reducing mass from 3 to 2.

Now increase speed by the same factor (in this case 1)

8 = 2X<b>4</b>

You are at approx. the same force you started with. You've effectively increased speed of the bolt without smashing your ball any more than usual. Mass and speed are directly proportional when it comes to force. You change either one and it directly effects your force in the same fashion.

Thats a real simple way to put it. But that's because I am a simple man!

[shartley]

Okay… some of you sound like you make some sense. But you are tossing in irrelevant comparisons, which in turn throw the examples given to prove your points out the window.

Tennis Ball VS Baseball thrown into someone’s testicles? Let’s first be a little more mature than that. Second, you are talking about a NOT fixed criteria that counts on the weight of the balls thrown and their inertia continuing past a given point.

The bolt on the other hand has a FIXED movement, and that is the SAME if the bolt is aluminum or steal. This means that no matter how much inertia the bolt gathers, it will ONLY move to a certain point no matter how hard it tries to move forward, OR how heavy the bolt is. This causes the Marker movement when firing. Heavier bolt, more movement.

Now, make the bolt lighter, moving in the SAME space, the SAME distance, and you get less movement when forward motion has stopped.. BUT the force on the ball will be the same if the bolt is moving at the same speed as the heavier bolt was. It will however return faster to its starting position faster because it is lighter and more easily moved by the spring. This will increase the overall speed in which the bold can fire, as well as reduce the movement on the Marker that its action causes.

Now, take into consideration that the bolt takes less to move, unless you turn down your velocity you will be hitting your paintballs too hard and fast… THUS causing the breakage (without the foam tip to reduce the impact).

Make more sense? How about like this.. since testicles seem to be popular…. If you took a baseball and a tennis ball and attached them to a piston, and set the piston to move the balls at a set speed and distance (both being identical for each ball), the pain caused on the testicle would be the SAME. But the energy used to cause that pain would be less for the tennis ball, because it was lighter.

The part that was wrong with the ball analogy was the part that did not take into account a fixed movement. In a paintball marker, the bolt is not free to continue its movement. A ball thrown IS. You can not compare the two accurately.

[Bwaites]

In actuality, the bolt has to strike the ball at the same force level to get the ball to accelerate to 300 FPS.

So the advantage in the Superbolt is not in the speed it reaches the ball, but in the speed it resets, which is the reason less recoil is felt. Diehard's explanantion of physics points out that to achieve the same acceleration with a lighter mass, a higher initial velocity has to be achieved, but the difference in mass in relation to the paintball, which is also being accelerated by the gas surrounding it, is actually quite small.

I suspect that the complaints of more ball breakage have more to do with the paint and perhaps the length of the bolt than with bolt speed, though shape of the bolt nose could also play a part.

In other words:

If F is equal to the force required to accelerate the ball to 300 FPS and M1 is equal to the mass of a Stainless bolt and M2 is equal to mass of a Superbolt then the velocity will be different but the total force on the ball will be the same.

F=M1 x Velocity1 which equals F=M2 x Velocity2 or

M1 x Velocity1 = M2 x Velocity2

Hope that works, and Tom if I am wrong, please correct me.

Bill

[steveg]

Yet another analogy

Take an orange and a baseball bat. toss the orange into the
air and hit it, as you would with a baseball
Ooo yuck messy huh?

Take another orange and duct tape it to the bat. start swinging

Take several swings. How's the orange doing?

As long as the ball is more or less touching the bolt when
you pull the trigger the ball is experiencing acceleration
only, no impact at all. I suspect that accelerating to
280fps in 5~10" is a heck of a lot more force than the
bolt applies.

Chopping is of course an entirely different matter

[MantisMag]

ok everybody is wrong! hahaha. you can't use analogies that involve your arm. your arm has mass. therefore no matter how light whatever you're swinging or throwing is there is a limit to how fast you can move it. the bolts will have the same amount of kinetic energy but not the same speed if you do not adjust your pressure. Work=F*D. same force applied over same distance same energy. we have the same force from the air pressure and the same bolt distance. work done to an object becomes kinetic energy. KE=1/2*m*v^2. with the same KE but different masses velocity changes by a square root factor. mass and velocity change at different rates. P(momentum) = m*v so they have the same energy but they don't have the same momentum. the superbolt has less momentum than the stock bolt.

now i'm sure i just confused some people. if the superbolt has less momentum why does it shoot at a higher fps? well that's because it isn't a simple collision. the bolt continues to accelerate for a short distance after it has made contact with the paintball. at this point you could consider the bolt and paintball to be one object. obviously a superbolt and paintball has less mass than a stock bolt and paintball. it's not for long. that's why it's only up to a 30 fps difference.

as for the breaking i don't feel like actually figuring it out but i think even after turning down the pressure to make the velocity match the superbolt would still have a higher velocity at the time that it connects with the paintball. that means that the paintball would have to accelerate faster to keep up than it would with the stock bolt. that's just a guess though. i might be wrong. the rest of this post should be right though. i'm pretty sure i covered everything. if anyone has trouble understanding what i said then let me know and i'll try to explain it another way.

[shartley]

ok everybody is wrong! hahaha.
LOL I love that!

But sorry, HE is wrong too…..


It is those darn Elves! ;) :D:D:D

(How soon we all forget. :rolleyes: )

[Miscue]

When you talk about collisions... you do so in terms of impulse forces for the most part. The longer the duration of collision... the greater the impulsive force.

External forces and impulsive forces are two different things. For instance... drop a steel and rubber sphere of same mass. Both have identical external force acting on it - gravity. However, the rubber sphere will have a longer collision time because it deform much more than the steel ball... and will have a much lower impulsive force than the steel ball.

Comparing this to bolts: If you use a lighter bolt, the force behind it is the same (say 60 psi)... but the bolt being lighter will move faster. You're reduced the collision time, and have increased the impulsive force.

You can also think of it in terms of energy, like someone mentioned:

KE = (1/2) * Mass * Velocity^2

Energy put on the ball increases exponentially with higher velocities... and linearly with mass.

[Bad Dave]

The bolt does not hit the ball, it pushes it. If you filmed the mag breach as it shoots you would see that it is not the bolt 'hitting' the ball that causes breaks but acceleration.

[steveg]

So just how hard is the bolt smacking ?

the pin in the bolt is about .240" that is the inside
measure of a 010 o-ring I couldn't measure the pin.
(maybe Tom could help)

.240 dia = .045 "sq

operating pressure 375 psi * .045 "sq =16.9 lbs
operating pressure 400 psi * .045 "sq =18.0 lbs

these are the forces on the bolt before you pull the
trigger.

some of this force is already canceled by the pretension
on the spring (would need to know the spring rate to figure that out)