View Full Version : X valve problem?
Hi I am totally new to mags, so please bare me as try to figure this out.
I just bought a used tac one with the xvalve, lvl ten, and a ULT, and when I got it, it had a small leak. I shot about 500 rounds through the gun with the leak, just so I could test it out and see how I liked the gun. Then I tried to figure out the leak. I deduced that it was coming from the front bolt/powertube, and I (with the help of some guys from pb nation) replaced the correct oring and the leak stopped. I then proceeded to take the gun all apart to see how it worked, and I (99% sure) put it all together correctly. (the only reason I am not 100% sure is because of my current problem...)
However, now when I put air in the gun, the leak stops, I can hear the gun cock, the sear engages, but when I pull the trigger nothing at all happens. There is pressure against the trigger, but the gun does not fire when I pull it. It just pushes back.
What is going on? Is there something I need to replace? I really like this gun, and when I was shooting it I LOVED how light the trigger was and how consistent it was :) I really want to get this gun up and working... so any help would be greatly appreciated!!
Thanks guys
om3n
Ruler_Mark
11-20-2008, 11:43 PM
http://www.automags.org/resource/level10/index.shtml
Re-tune your lvl X
georgeyew
11-20-2008, 11:58 PM
With the marker aired up, try loosening the thumb screw a little and see if that helps. I've had that problem before where the screw was too tight and did not let the bolt move freely. The thumb screw should be hand tight. Try that first.
http://www.automags.org/resource/level10/index.shtml
Re-tune your lvl X
Ok I believe I have the lvl X perfectly tuned. The bolt comes off when I gently shake it upside down, but it will not come off when I simply hold it upside down, and there is no leak with this carrier. I am using a #2 carrier. The problem is still there; the sear engages and there is pressure against the trigger; the gun audibly cocks, but when I pull the trigger nothing happens.
Any other ideas?... :( I also did try loosening the thumb screw... no help :(
Also I tried using the stock on/off and the ULT on/off, and I have the same problem with both, but the trigger weight is much more with the stock on/off (obviously).
Watcher
11-21-2008, 07:24 PM
Sounds like the sear rod is out of spec.
Check to see, when the marker is gassed up there should only be about a millimeter or the thickness of a note-card gap between the back of the trigger and the sear rod.
If there is a large gap or a lot of play in the trigger then it is probably that the sear rod isn't long enough and is not disengaging the bolt while just slightly lifting the on/off pin.
If it is gapped correctly don't touch it, the rod is tuned from the factory to have the best pull possible with no take-up and a quick pull.
What kind of trigger frame is on it?
Sounds like the sear rod is out of spec.
Check to see, when the marker is gassed up there should only be about a millimeter or the thickness of a note-card gap between the back of the trigger and the sear rod.
If there is a large gap or a lot of play in the trigger then it is probably that the sear rod isn't long enough and is not disengaging the bolt while just slightly lifting the on/off pin.
If it is gapped correctly don't touch it, the rod is tuned from the factory to have the best pull possible with no take-up and a quick pull.
What kind of trigger frame is on it?
Yep that looks about right- approx. a millimeter. If I take a small screwdriver and push the sear back as far as I can, the gun still doesn't fire.
EDIT
It has the stock frame.
Any other ideas? :(
Yep that looks about right- approx. a millimeter. If I take a small screwdriver and push the sear back as far as I can, the gun still doesn't fire.
EDIT
It has the stock frame.
Any other ideas? :(
Also, is there a good way for me to release all the air of out my system without just unscrewing the tank?... I have used up 2 orings so far :(
Watcher
11-21-2008, 08:47 PM
If you have a remote line, use that for the testing. Your ASA doesn't have a bleed-off?
I was going to say unscrew the tank 3/4s of a turn then fire the gun a few times but you can't do that :rolleyes:
Is the pin for the on/off installed correctly? Big side up for the stock on/off and the thin rod with the big side up for the ult.
This just dawned on me...
... try using a weaker spring on the bolt. Or turn up the velocity.
If you have a remote line, use that for the testing. Your ASA doesn't have a bleed-off?
I was going to say unscrew the tank 3/4s of a turn then fire the gun a few times but you can't do that :rolleyes:
Is the pin for the on/off installed correctly? Big side up for the stock on/off and the thin rod with the big side up for the ult.
This just dawned on me...
... try using a weaker spring on the bolt. Or turn up the velocity.
I have tried turning up the velocity all the way up, and nothing. I am using the weakest spring I have; the gold one.
Guys I am getting desperate here :( I really want to like mags, but right now I am having an extremely hard time with this one and I as of right now I am not liking it at all :(
can anyone help me?...
Well here is everything I have tried.
-I pulled the gun totally apart, lightly oiled everything and put it back together with diagrams in front of me to make sure I was doing it right
-I removed and checked the sear to make sure it was not deformed in any way
-I tried using both the stock on/off and the ULT on/off and they both have the same issue
-I have tuned the lvl X to the best it could be
-I have even tried shooting the gun without using a front bolt spring just to see if that was what was holding it back from firing- it didn't fire without that spring
-I have tried turning up the velocity
-I have tightened/loosened the thumb screw
-I have tested my tank to make sure it is outputting 800 PSI
I am STILL getting the same problem- the gun will NOT fire
PLEASE help me :(
Watcher
11-22-2008, 03:32 AM
Well, aside from something being put in wrong I can't see how it would not work.
Pull it apart again, and inspect every little part 5 times over.
Pull up a valve exploded view and make sure everything is oriented correctly. The brass reg seat, idk if that would be the problem but, check to see that the flared and cross-hatched side is facing the reg.
Pull out all the ULT and level 10 shims and start from scratch. If you have a level 7 bolt try that in the valve and see if it makes a difference.
Pull out the valve/reg pin and see if that is screwed up in any way. If the o-rings are cracked, dried, or brown then it could be gumming up something.
Do you have both o-rings on top of the on/off?
This may seem dumb but... is the sear in facing forward?
I wish I could help you more but unless you want to send me your valve I can't really help you aside from offering suggestions, but these suggestions are shots in the dark :(
Call AGD, their customer support number is listed on their site. You can probably arrange to have them fix/rebuild the valve.
I hope we can figure this out, once you get to shoot this thing for real you won't want to give it up :headbang:
Ok here is something new... and I will address everything you just said in a moment.
Check out number ten...
I don't have one in my gun. I have tried using a tank oring, a piece of cardboard cut to the appropriate size, and both of those in place of that bumper made no difference. I am going to try to pick one up from a shop around here today if I can.
http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/5427/xvalveexplodedff7.gif
Well, aside from something being put in wrong I can't see how it would not work.
Pull it apart again, and inspect every little part 5 times over.
Pull up a valve exploded view and make sure everything is oriented correctly. The brass reg seat, idk if that would be the problem but, check to see that the flared and cross-hatched side is facing the reg.
Pull out all the ULT and level 10 shims and start from scratch. If you have a level 7 bolt try that in the valve and see if it makes a difference.
Pull out the valve/reg pin and see if that is screwed up in any way. If the o-rings are cracked, dried, or brown then it could be gumming up something.
Do you have both o-rings on top of the on/off?
This may seem dumb but... is the sear in facing forward?
I wish I could help you more but unless you want to send me your valve I can't really help you aside from offering suggestions, but these suggestions are shots in the dark :(
Call AGD, their customer support number is listed on their site. You can probably arrange to have them fix/rebuild the valve.
I hope we can figure this out, once you get to shoot this thing for real you won't want to give it up :headbang:
Another question: is there supposed to be an oring inside the space where the on/off fits that the on/off pushes up against if that makes sense? Like if you were to pull the on/off out, this oring would be visible inside the hole where the on/off sits.
I don't have one, but if it fell out one time when I was putting the gun back together, well that could be the problem.
O-rings 22 and 23 should be inside the valve body, and then the on/off goes in.
And item 10 is just the bumper. I don't think it would prevent the valve from working.
O-rings 22 and 23 should be inside the valve body, and then the on/off goes in.
And item 10 is just the bumper. I don't think it would prevent the valve from working.
Wait a minute I am using the ULT. Should there be orings inside the valve body because I am not seeing any
Friendly-fire
11-22-2008, 04:17 PM
Sounds exactly like when my carrier o ring was too tight. Air up your gun again and try putting your finger down the feed neck to push the bolt back. If you can push it back and it works for one shot, then you need to go up one size on your carrier (Or maybe just run some oil through the ASA)
Hooker
11-22-2008, 04:39 PM
I'm in the same boat you are in. Marker was gassed up and when i pulled the trigger.....nothing. Constant pressure against the trigger but it wouldn't fire. I just replaced the carrier o-ring and added 1 shim (2 all together) and now i'm able to fire the gun, although it sounds like it's leaking pretty bad down the barrel (hopefully the o-ring has to be worked in).
I'm far from done but atleast i can fire the gun. Now i need to get more air so i can keep working on it.....Frustrating!
I think mine is one of the older style valves (it says "X-Valve" on it instead of just 1 big "X") so maybe it needs an O-ring overhaul.
Nope I have the lvl X tuned quite well. This guy at PB nation says that he thinks its my lack of the bolt bumper... he says that the bolt needs to be pushed forward slightly for the sear to engage it. He says he has had the exact same problem before... I am quite sure it's not a lvl X problem because i have spent like 3 hours messing with it and it has never shot once, even when I had it loose and leaking.
I will be getting a bumper hopefully tomorrow or Monday
Watcher
11-23-2008, 09:23 PM
No, the bumper does not hold the bolt forward. While it is true that the bolt needs to be pushed forward for the sear to engage it, it is the air pressure behind the bolt that does it.
The bumper is just, well, a bumper. It prevents the bolt from obliterating the powertube o-ring from being smashed into it by the return spring. It won't affect the valve's firing, only it would wear out the pt o-ring really fast without it.
If you do not have o-rings in the valve above the on/off, that means that the pin is not doing it's job of shutting the air-flow off when the trigger is pulled.
You should have a pair of o-rings in there, one seats into the other.
It is important to know how the valve works so that it can be diagnosed. When the valve airs up, it first goes to the top of the on/off. If you allow it (by letting the trigger loose) the air pushed the on/off pin down and then passes through the on/off to fill the powertube, dump chamber, and regulator. This also pushes the sear down which engages the bolt. At this point, the only thing holding in the air pressure is the bolt itself.
When you pull the trigger, the sear rocks which does two things: 1) it lifts the on/off pin which seals off the powertube, reg, and dump chamber from the air source so that no more air enters the system and 2) it lets go of the bolt and the air in the reg, powertube, and dump chamber rushes out pushing the bolt forward and firing the marker.
When no more air pressure is behind the bolt, the spring can return the bolt to it's resting position and when you let go of the trigger, the bolt is caught and held by the sear, and the on/off pin is dropped which allows the valve to pressurize again.
So if any of these things cannot happen it means the valve will not fire. It has to be something in the bolt/powetube or on/off assembly. Since the level 10, you say, is tuned well then it has to be the on/off and since you say you are missing o-rings that is definitely the problem.
Get those replaced and see how the marker fires then :shooting:
Break your valve down, and lay everything out on a table (or better yet, the floor. Things can't fall off the floor) how it is in the picture. Then go from one end to the other and make sure everything is there. If anything looks different or is missing then change it or get it and start over.
Begin with what is obvious though, get those on/off o-rings in the valve, then get a bumper.
Spider-TW
11-24-2008, 09:09 AM
If you do not have o-rings in the valve above the on/off, that means that the pin is not doing it's job of shutting the air-flow off when the trigger is pulled.
You should have a pair of o-rings in there, one seats into the other.
The ULT does not use the two orings on top of the on/off. It has one captured in its own brass top. This is why ULTs don't fit in old RT valves that used a single on/off oring; the ULT uses the space that would be occupied by both of the top orings.
Do you still have a rail bushing? It's the sleeve for the thumbscrew and runs between the frame and the rail. They can fall out and cause problems. Without air on the marker and the thumbscrew loosened, the valve should move not more than about half a millimeter.
You really should have a clear bumper under the bolt before you shoot it. I've never tried it, but I have noticed differences in wear from the clear bumper to the blue bumper on level 10 bolts and letting the bolt hammer the valve body is no good. Don't shoot it without a bolt spring either. From some other posts, it makes an unpleasant sound and can knock the bolt stop ring out of the body.
secretweaponevan
11-24-2008, 10:19 AM
Sorry, was on a cruise for a week.
om3n, please do an isolated on/off test and let us know your findings.
Start with taking the bolt out, reassemble, then hold trigger, gas up and see if gas leaks out the barrel.
If it doesn't..
Then release the trigger and see gas if rushes out the barrel.
Then pull and hold the trigger and see if it stops again.
It will be a good starting point.
Edit: This still sounds like a low velocity problem. Are BOTH springs inside the reg half???
Watcher
11-24-2008, 04:23 PM
The ULT does not use the two orings on top of the on/off. It has one captured in its own brass top. This is why ULTs don't fit in old RT valves that used a single on/off oring; the ULT uses the space that would be occupied by both of the top orings.
Oops. Sorry about that.
Forgot it was particular to valves :(
Yeah, disregard that...
Hmm, rail bushing sounds like it could be the (or one of the) problem(s)...
secretweaponevan
11-25-2008, 08:24 PM
His non-stock feedneck was screwed in so far that it wouldn't let the bolt move forward.
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?p=53590803#post53590803
At least now you can enjoy your tac and got to learn it at the same time! :clap:
Spider-TW
11-26-2008, 01:00 AM
I guess he tightened it when he went to test...
Looks like he still needs a CCM or such.
I noticed something this week that reminds me of the problems with frame screw tension - my old tac rail was being difficult taking a twist-lock assembly. The assembly was keeping the body from lying flat. I can see that really messing up alignment.
Watcher
11-26-2008, 03:08 AM
Well, I'm glad the issue is solved.
Lol, that's really odd that the feedneck was protruding. I'd probably just mark it, then file the bottom off with a curved file or something.
Spider-TW
11-26-2008, 10:42 AM
I've read about one like that before, but just one. Never saw if it was a manufacturing or installation problem. I would believe either one. :)
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