Cocker Nonsense...

[gmag]

I was just chatting with my friend on AIM, and we got into the discussion of a cocker's accuracy. I told him it was proven that it has the same exact accuracy as a mag, displayed through the use of a benchmount. He didn't believe me, so I'm asking for unbiased responses as to why this is a fact. Mainly, scientific or logical responses would be preferred. Even a diagram would help. I just want to show him that the accuracy and range of a cocker is a myth. All responses are greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Brett

P.S. Throw some elf jokes in too!

[OldSchoolMag]

Actually, I believe they are. With the exception of Micro, SFL, and Extremes, cockers ARE more accurate. The barrel system in the Mags are, while easier to field clean, less accurate for the reason that they have less threading than cocker barrels. This leads them to shake more, depending on o-rings on the barrel, and such. Of course, should a cocker barrel be stripped 'round the threading, the same would occur. Other than that, they are exactly the same. Now, distance, is nearly the exact same.

OSM

[gmag]

What about the benchmount expirement?

[Army]

Well, Mr. Newton had a few thoughts on the subject a while ago....

But if your friend is determined to deny Mr. Newtons proven facts on time, gravity, distance, and velocity, how about your buddy reading this:

http://www.paintballstar.com/randebtherre.html


BTW, it's a benchREST:cool:

[nutz]

lol benchpress..... i believe ur talking about a benchmount...

on the subject of accuracy i think the cocker may put balls into the same spot more consistanly than a mag i dont know why but it felt like that when i played with a friends cocker... and i know about mags cause i own 2

[j7million]

How are mag barrels easier to clean than other barrels. . . Also how do battle swabs and strait squeegies things work. . . you shuve them in the barrel and just push all the paint back in to it?

I'm kinda deprived I'v never seen a real pb tournie where people clean their barrel after a break. . I just shoot it out. . cept it dont' work good with my mag. Unless I'm playin' in the woods and have plenty of time to take off barrel and run my squeegee through. . .

[LaW]

Mag barrels are easier to clean because you can tip the gun, twist pull clean and retwist in and play :)

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by OldSchoolMag
Actually, I believe they are. With the exception of Micro, SFL, and Extremes, cockers ARE more accurate. The barrel system in the Mags are, while easier to field clean, less accurate for the reason that they have less threading than cocker barrels. This leads them to shake more, depending on o-rings on the barrel, and such. Of course, should a cocker barrel be stripped 'round the threading, the same would occur. Other than that, they are exactly the same. Now, distance, is nearly the exact same.

OSM

Nothing but a myth...

The mathematical deviation for the "play in the barrel" providing you have tight o-rings is less than one inch at 100yards this is 3 times the effective range of a paintgun. your ability to aim at that range would account for 100 times more deviation than the slight play in the barrel.

Bottom line is it does not matter.

In bench rest tests using the same barrel Mags have the same accuracy as other high end guns.

[Twiek]

First and formost is consistancy. If a gun is more consistant, then the balls will be traveling in a tighter range of velocities, and will therefore have less variation in the distances they travel. This is most noticible in the vertical direction.... Just do a quick test with good paint, and you'll find that the gun has tighter groupings left-to-right than up-and-down.

That being said, a well-tuned cocker will have very good consistancy, and can be, for the most part, better than mags.

In addition, I agree with Old School Mag in the fact that the normal barrels do vibrate a lot when shot. While they only move very small angles, the difference it makes in shooting distance is noticable. While the varation may be small, it does add to the other "problems". [EDIT: The jury's still out on this one. While tight o-rings reduce this to negligible porportions, not all mags in normal operation have tight o-rings, and therefore contribute to the apparent difference in accuracy]

But mostly, I think the difference in accuracy is in the user. Some people can keep the gun steadier with a longer-but-smoother trigger pull, some work better with electronic triggers, and some are more accurate with crisp triggers. Personally, I find the long-but-smooth pull of the cocker to move the gun less than even an electronic trigger. With electronic triggers, I tend to mash the trigger hard enough to torque the gun and throw it off. Just think about it... some people posses the ability to shoot a gun more accurately than others; What says that the gun can't affect that ability?

[SoupRman]

Originally posted by j7million
How are mag barrels easier to clean than other barrels. . . Also how do battle swabs and strait squeegies things work. . . you shuve them in the barrel and just push all the paint back in to it?

I'm kinda deprived I'v never seen a real pb tournie where people clean their barrel after a break. . I just shoot it out. . cept it dont' work good with my mag. Unless I'm playin' in the woods and have plenty of time to take off barrel and run my squeegee through. . .

striaght shot-you press the spring type rod int eh back to make the disk at then end be parrelel to the barrel and slide it in, then you release making it go perpendicular to the barrel and pull all the paint out.

battle swab-because of the swab it collects paint as you push, and then pull.

you can waste paint and time tryign to shoot through with the right barrel. but if you can't and want a quick and thorough way, get one of the above.

[liigod]

My f5 shoots ball on top of ball on the target every time. And it does it FAST. Faster than any angel ive ever shot and i have shot mostly adrenalin angels. My mag while it is sick, shoots in a small shot gouping, but not ball on ball. This is with good paint to barrel matches, and both with 10 inch boomsticks.

[gmag]

I thought I would get better responses. The argument can still be swayed either way in this thread. Any more explanations as to why the cocker has the same range as a mag would be appreciated. My friend still doesn't believe me. Cmon Tom.

[pip_999]

calling on the owner of AGD
come on tom, let see your response

or maybe budd orr can stop by and argue either way

[gmag]

Cmon Tom.

[Butterfingers]

Want the truth. My e-mag is consistently more consistent than my roomates palmerized cocker. Match the barrel to the paint, and keep the effective length of the barrel shorter than 10 inches and I get chrono readings +,- 2 fps.

Even if the barrel wiggled one milimeter in each direction, which is extreme, if you do the trigonomery at range it would be negligable.

Stop listening to myths.

[Trunnion]

to explain the range dillema, use simple physics. any two guns firing paintballs at the same velocity and angle to the horizontal will have the same range. thus as long as the cocker is firing at the same speed as the mag, they'll have the same range

[joker4hire]

I was on the PBReview website, and I saw this about range

This true or is this guy full of it?


http://www.pbreview.com/156/1/10/

**ANOTHER OPINION ABOUT RANGE**(concerning the opinions below)

Guns do not shoot the same range and accuracy with all the previously mentioned variables the same. There is another variable called crown turbulence.
CROWN TURBULENCE is turbulence made right outside the tip of your barrel every time you shoot. This gust off air throws the ball off its mark slightly and is mostly noticed towards the end of the paintballs path. OPEN BOLT guns (like the angel, E-mag, and most guns) have a high crown turbulence and therefore are not incredibly accurate. Also, the lower the pressure that your gun shoots, the lower the crown turbulence. ClOSED BOLT guns (like autococker and exalibur) have very little crown turbulence and are more accurate. If all variables are the same like barrel, paint, N2 system, etc. then the autococker, excalibur, and other closed bolt guns will out perform all other open bolt guns due to less crown turbulence and lower pressure. So this just means that at a distance they are much more accurate and hit the same spot consistantly.

[Trunnion]

correct me if i'm wrong(and i very well may be) but isn't crown turbulence caused at the muzzle of the barrel?

[mac2k4]

yeah well that from paintball reveiw i pretty dumb, i have closed bolt, open bolt markers from, M3 sniper(black dragun) angels(dark, adren. stock) shockers, impulses and so many cockers and none of them shoot any damn different

when your playing, half the time your snap shooting, or putting a straeam out, and accuracy isn't that important anyways. i just shoot an angel, cause it feels good, and thats it.

[Minimag4me]

if the same paintball comes out of the same barrel at the same velocity it will go the same distance and have the same accuracy. its logical think about it.

that crown turbulace thing is false because porting and other barrel methods keep it down. mags have a barrel pressure of under 100(very low) because the powertube tip and power piston releases air slower than other markers(works sort of like low pressure but with higher pressure). some low pressure guns have higher barrel pressures than mags. having said that in theory cockers/closed bolt would have more crown turbulance because the air can only escape around the ball after it is fired(unported barrel) but in a mag/angel etc it can also go back out of feed tube which lowers efficiency but is effective.

between cockers and mags i find to be both equally accurate because in a cocker it has that 4 pound bolt and back block combo but smooth trigger and a mag has a snappy trigger(can through off accuracy) but has little kick

[Ityl]

do I believe some guns are more accurate than others? yes ALL GUNS AREN'T CREATED EQUAL!!! therefore they all cannot have the same accuracy.

[thecompany]

Back to the original issue... is there a difference, bencmounting or not?

Benchmounting, no there is no difference. The same ball in the same barrel at the same velocity will have the same accuracy.

But benchmounting is not real life. The fact is that a blow-forward 'gun (Automag) sends the bolt traveling forward before the air leaves the bolt. This forward motion can cause the barrel to 'tip' very slightly forward, or down, when the 'gun is fired. Though it is very slight, the 'tip' can make a large difference over long ranges.

Closed bold 'guns (Autococker) release the gas before the mechanics go to work. This allows the ball to leave the barrel before the mechanical movement can affect the 'gun, or the path of the paintball.

This all came from a study that was originally posted on a forum somewhere (???), and was re-posted on our forum at www.rumbleme.com. It got lost from our forum in our recent upgrade, but I will see about getting it back in so you guys can come read it. It makes a lot of sense.

[thecompany]

Just found the old post. Come check it out in the Tech Chat forum on RumbleMe.com

[Minimag4me]

your right that autocockers release gas before the first shot but what about a string of shots then there are affects, it affects it more than the so called "tip" i have never noticed(seems like a negitive mag myth to me) with a foregrip the tip should be nothing because you hand right there should counteract it. if it does exist it is negligable

go to deep blue and check out closed vs open bolt it has this discussion answered

[thecompany]

What affects it more that the 'tip?' I don't understand what you're saying... no offense. Just curious what you mean about the effects on the 'Cocker.

[Minimag4me]

sorry,

after a cocker fires the back block and bolt move backword to cock the hammer and load the next ball. i was refering to that as the kick on the cocker that can throw off accuracy (imo) more than the mag "tip".

remember the cocker too has a spring pushing the hammer and cocking rod forward which theoritically can cause a "tip" also. tom mentioned this once its called precoil, he said that someone should measure the superbolt vs the hammer/cocking rod to determine the theoritical ammount of precoil(with taking in account bolt/hammer speed etc)

[Trunnion]

the tip he's referring to occurs when the bolt moves. for example, in a tippmann 98, which is open bolt, the bolt must move forward to strike the power tube and fire the gun. the movement of the bolt shifts the weight forward and can cause a nearly unnoticable shift in weight. i know what he's saying about the mags bolt, but not only does it not move as far as something like a 98, it also seems(and i may be wrong, i've never weighed my tippmann bolt against my mag) that the mag bolt has less mass than the 98 bolt. while i can see that there would be a small amount of 'tip', as you put it, i don't know that it would be enough to severely affect the shooter.

[Nitroduck]

Ok.........

Cockers and Mags have the same accuracy overall.

However, there are fine points on minor accuracy changes on both guns....

Cockers *might* have a lil better consistancy (in some cases) which can cause better accuracy at long distances.

Cockers have front grips for better stability (stock)

Mags have worse stock barrels (if stock barrels at all)

Past that......Same accuracy. I've tested both and they have the same accuracy if they're getting the same FPS variance and I have a similar barrel on both (like both having DYEs).....

[gmag]

Ok, these answers are better. Thanks guys.

[DarkRipper]

Originally posted by Butterfingers
Want the truth. My e-mag is consistently more consistent than my roomates palmerized cocker. Match the barrel to the paint, and keep the effective length of the barrel shorter than 10 inches and I get chrono readings +,- 2 fps.

Even if the barrel wiggled one milimeter in each direction, which is extreme, if you do the trigonomery at range it would be negligable.

Stop listening to myths.

I have exactly the OPPOSITE experience. My emag (which came to be rather famous here at AO) on N2 with boomstick and fresh Hellfire (matched to bore) against a 2k1 RF nearly stock cocker on CO2.

We lined up about 50 feet from a standard aluminum trashcan and each fired 10 shots from each gun. Taking into account lack of experience with the emag on my friend's part (I've shot many cocker and mags) the emag STILL was very inaccurate when compared, shot to shot, to this nearly stock cocker on C02.

So, there are your facts. Not benchrest, but real world testing... same type barrels, same bores, same bags of paint.

The cocker should be less accurate, due to the Co2 not being as efficient a propellant, correct?

Why then was the high end emag on N2, with the same bore and make of barrel, with the same paint, shot from the hands of an experienced player, so inaccurate when compared to the cocker?

:)
DR

[Scorch]

I'm another guy that had a Mag (and I still miss my RT) but changed, eventually, to a cocker.

I shot more than 60k shots from RT during the 7 months I had it. I am more than willing to blame the NitroDuck airsystem, but I never saw better than +/- 2 or 3 consistency. With the odd +/- 5 variation.

My Angel was a little better with more consistent +/-2 with very little variation. I was using a MacDev Conquest and Gladiator by then.

Now my first cocker was an Evolution X... yes a good first choice but I was a little nervous about shooting something with all that plumbing ;) even though my playing experience with it was stellar from the start.

Ok... the real meat of the issue... Consistency. My EvoX and my current Sonic Cockers shoot +/-1 or better. I completely believe that the mag will match accuracy with any other marker if they are shooting the same velocity.

The problem in my estimation is that a accurate grouping of shots and an accurate first shot come from predictable and consistent velocity.

I have said it before... When I see an Emag shoot four shots at +/-1 after a game to what it shot going on the field, I will buy one. I really do want to own a mag again.

I think it will take a new valve design to do it.

Scorch

[Nitroduck]

Whenever i ran my mag on n2 preset , and correct paint match i got +/- 3 FPS over chrono. On my mag with ajustable tank ,i'd get +/- 1 FPS

Now having said that , i run a preset on my cocker , and use 32* seconds paint which vary widely in bore size and i get +/- 1 FPS.

[HyperSnyper]

Im not AGD, but I will try my best to fill his shoes.

First of all, I dont believe Tom would reply to this thread in anyway. For a large industry leader to discredit the works of another Industry leader would create a tension (maybe even a marketing war)between the two since sales will flutuate. Plus, to my understandings, Tom and Budd are great friends. The dynamics of each gun, I believe Tom and Budd will leave to the consumers to find out for themselves. I dont believe there will even be a Paintball mudslinging with one leader saying this leaders products suck. NO WAY.

As for accuracy, Mag vs Cocker, here is my long and researched view on it (get a pillow ready, you might fall asleep ZZZzzzZZZ).

First of all, the Closed Bolt vs Open Bolt Myth BS. Its exactly that BS. It has been proven by many online bodies FALSE. Warpig has discredidted the fact that closed bolt shoots better than open (I wonder if they lost advertising from WGP LOL). This was an orignal myth that since the marker is closed bolt like a pump, it will shoot just as accurate.

Forums on Warpig, Paintball City, and I think PBnation have had individuals who have done private testing, bechmounted various guns (Opens: Spyders, Tippmans, Mags Closed: Cocker, Shocker) to find out they all had the same accuracy and range, using the same barrel and air system on every gun. It came down to just the recoil of each gun that contributed to deviation in the aiming which caused inaccuracy. And yes, the truth, even Spyders can be JUST AS ACCURATE as our Guns and other Highend guns like the cocker and Angel.

SO THERE WE GO CLOSED BOLT IS BS.

As for accuracy on the Benchmount, all guns should be the same given the same barrel and airsystem. All a marker is, is a pneumatic device designed to propel a gelatin projectile. If each device is given a the same consistent air pressure with a smooth barrel which will seal and propel the ball out, then all will shoot the same.

Go to PBStars review on High end Mrkers and see the paint spread each gun did at 25 then 40 yards http://www.pbstar.com/semiauto1.html and see for yourself how the markers shot up in terms of consistency and benchmounted accuracy tests.

Heres a heads up, this was the farther test at 40 yards. Heres the measurements each gun did, it will be given in inches from the middle of the paint goo o the target:

AGD Classic Mag: (Up/Down) 8.5 (Left/Right) 3/5.5
AGD E-Mag: (Up/Down) 9 (Left/Right) 9/4
WDP Angel: (Up/Down) 6/9 (Left/Right) 7/2
SP SHocker: (Up/Down) 10 (Left/Right) 4
WGP Autococker: (Up/Down) 9 ---> 23 (Left/Right) 9

Show that to your friend if you like, or show him the link. As you can see, the CLASSIC MAG BEAT EVERYONE in terms of average accuracy in vertical and horizontal deviation (EVEN THE EMAG also).

Remember that all these guns were benchmounted, unless you have arms like a vice, dont exoect to get the same accuracy.

Dont fall to the marketing hype. Just because some corporate advertiser says this gun shoots better than that gun, dont believe them. Some stores are biased and sell majority Cockers (like mine) and believe that the COcker has better range and accuracy them other guns (maybe because they got a good deal on a Pallet of Cockers and need to liquidate them maybe... hmmm...).

Im just so sick of people telling me, "Man get a Cocker, its way better than that Mag". BS. The Cocker/Closed bolt myth on accuracy is a myth, a placebo in the industry that has made WGP alot of money (Too bad Tom didnt hop in the bandwagon and say something like Blow forwards shoot better... but them again, I respect him for not taking advantage of paintbalers).

Hope this helps, and for those who fell asleep reading this... WAKE UP !!! LoL.

-Hyper

[Minimag4me]

about the e-mag inaccuracy(darkripper i think) the "high" end air system you have may be your problem. If it is not clean it wont shoot consistantly. WGP has excelent regs on stock cockers, they stabilize co2 very well and let almost no liquid through. If the guns have the same velocity, air system, reg...

[AutoMaggot]

Whoever said cockers have kick doesnt know cockers very well... I've owned quite a few markers... Ive gone from two mags, to an ANS GenX, to a Dark Angel LED, to an E-Mag, and now im back to a totally custom STO... the only thing stock is the gas block, ASA, and body... So I have had ample time to find what I like better... When a cocker is properly timed, that is: Hammer lug adjudted to its prime, LPR sweetspotted, and with a nice low pressure off the bolt, by the time you feel anything move on the gun, the ball has been released out of the barrel... moreover, when you pull the trigger on a mag, you tend to feel the body lurch forward, as the bolt kicks the paint... giving your second rapid shot a little misdirection. On a note of consistency, the last three markers I've owned (the angel, emag, and STO), all were run on my brand new 88/45 Max Flow... Best from the Emag I ever got was +/- 5... and this was with a freak system mind you... Last weekend I hit a string from the STO of 268, 268, 268, 269... Hell, I'd take a video of it to back that claim up... and that, my friend, is where a properly tuned cocker can be more accurate than a mag... in terms of distance, the ball stays on course thanks to the breach area being totally enclosed when the marker fires. No excess gas can surround the ball and kick back through the firing mechanism... the same amount of air hits the same space on the ball time and time again. And, dont flame, but LP does have its advantages... I run a Superfly with a really heaver hammer/spring combo and a slick glass-packed Evo RAM... my bolt shoots a ball at around 45 PSI... Therefore, it uses more evenly dispersed air which gently pushes it at an accelerating rate through the barrel.... where as a mag fires, and the ball is finsihed excellerating in just a few inches...

[jobo_18]

I shot more than 60k shots from RT during the 7 months I had it. I am more than willing to blame the NitroDuck airsystem, but I never saw better than +/- 2 or 3 consistency. With the odd +/- 5 variation.


i'm running a nitro duck 68 3k, last weekend at the skirmish 5-man winterwars i was getting +,- 3 fps with occasional spikes up to 4. my little brother has a cocker,d i'll admit that it is more accurate, but i laugh when we play and it's not the one day a month that his cocker decides to work. accuracy doesn't mean anything if the gun doesn't want to play.

[thecompany]

"Doesn't want to play" has everything to do with the user and nothing to do with the marker. No 'Cocker, or any other marker for that matter, ever just "goes bad" without the direct intervention of the user. Granted, it happens more often with 'Cockers, but that's because there is more to the systems of the marker, and therefore more for the user to not know enough about and to mess up (or let mess up).

[DarkRipper]

Originally posted by Minimag4me
about the e-mag inaccuracy(darkripper i think) the "high" end air system you have may be your problem. If it is not clean it wont shoot consistantly. WGP has excelent regs on stock cockers, they stabilize co2 very well and let almost no liquid through. If the guns have the same velocity, air system, reg...

Air system was clean.

:)
DR

[Minimag4me]

Automaggot i said that...

i was referring to the second shot being affected by the kick about the back block and bolt moving back. I have owned a cocker(99 and wasnt low pressure or anything) and my bro has a 00. I know the kick is lessened on low pressure cockers i just have no experience with those:). The kick is still there though but you are right the first shot isnt affected.

[Major Ho]

Originally posted by HyperSnyper
Im not AGD, but I will try my best to fill his shoes.
-Hyper
No one said you had to...

[laysomepaint]

"And, dont flame, but LP does have its advantages... I run a Superfly with a really heaver hammer/spring combo and a slick glass-packed Evo RAM... my bolt shoots a ball at around 45 PSI... Therefore, it uses more evenly dispersed air which gently pushes it at an accelerating rate through the barrel.... where as a mag fires, and the ball is finsihed excellerating in just a few inches..."

not flaming...

actually, because the mag releases the air so slowly, the same advantage that you claim LP gives, the mag gets. Ive heard from someone that actually tested this(dont know about tom kaye's results), and an automag has an average barrel pressure of around 45 psi...(hehe). PBJosh(on here, pbnation, and god knows what else) did the test. Therefore, the only thing the lp is doing for your cocker compared to a mag is efficiency.

the only way i see to make the mag more accurate is to change it from blow forward to pneumatic. Just move the piston mechanism in the bolt to the powertube, and modify it a bit(to keep the benefits of low barrel pressure) and use a bolt that is pretty much a hole, with maybe a venturi. You woudn't need a foamie if the ram is running at a low enough pressure. btw, this would make it more accurate because it would have less kick then a cocker(no hammer moving around, AND the bolt is moving with less force) and provide a bit more weight to absorb that kick.

actually, the mag should be more consistent. It uses a preset amount of air every time, instead of a poppet valve which is hit open, then closes..(actually, im not sure that this is actually true in practice, warpig tells me this, and 90% of the time theyre right.)

[liigod]

Yes i understand what you all say about yer mags being sick and mags are sick. I like mags. But my f5 shoots straighter. Why?! i have no idea, it makes no sense. But it does.

[renegade2k]

i dont know if some one said this but warpig did a test on this and proved it a myth

[HyperSnyper]

Hey,

Maybe we should start making our own rumors about blow forwards. We can say that blowforwards get more range, since the bolt is blowing "forward", as opposed to blowing it "back", it sends the ball out more "forward" and farther.

Add alot of tech talk and jargon, and the blind masses will believe. Heck, TK will even make a pretty penny of this.

LoL

-Hyper