finding that sweet spot

[crash11]

I just got e-mag valve with lvl10/ult.

I've installed the valve, but I can't sweet spot the trigger. I've checked the trigger pin when aired up and there is that cc space between the trigger and pin. I do have a regular single trigger frame. Are there any other things I could try without going to a double trigger frame?


Thanks

[xero28]

I just got e-mag valve with lvl10/ult.

I've installed the valve, but I can't sweet spot the trigger. I've checked the trigger pin when aired up and there is that cc space between the trigger and pin. I do have a regular single trigger frame. Are there any other things I could try without going to a double trigger frame?


Thanks

You're probably not going to get a "sweet spot" with the ULT installed. The ULT virtually eliminates the RT effect of the valve and will not push back on the trigger with a lot of force. Since it does lighten the trigger greatly, you should theoretically be able to shoot faster though. I've got a regular RT on/off in my RT and I can get a nice "sweet spot" at around 800 psi. I do have a double finger blade trigger. However, I usually shoot with a single finger towards the top of the trigger to get a better RT effect. If I want to shot without the RT, I'll go to two fingers which helps to cut down on the bounce. Put an RT on/off in there, make sure the pin length is correct (should be .750 inches), and you should be able to get a good "sweet spot" with your single trigger. Just look at the RT Classics, most of them are single trigger. Check out Zak Vetters website, he explains the RT and "sweet spotting" very well.

http://www.zakvetter.com/pages/paintballs/automag_info/rapidfire/how-to-rapidfire.html

Good Luck.

-X

[crash11]

Ok. Can I just replace the on/off pin or do I have to replace the whole thing?

[Looper]

Ok. Can I just replace the on/off pin or do I have to replace the whole thing?
You need the whole R/T on/off assembly and a shorter pin for an emag.

[xero28]

You need the whole R/T on/off assembly and a shorter pin for an emag.

I believe you only need the shorter pin if you are using EMag lowers. If it's just a regular trigger frame, I think you need the .750 pin. If this is wrong, please correct me. From what I understand, all of the valves are essentially the same (when talking about RT type, ie Retro, RT, Emag), the only thing that's different is what is written on the side. So you can use an RT Valve as an EMag, all you need is the shorter pin? Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Spider-TW]

Actually, if you put in a full set of shims in the ULT, it should be pretty close to RT operation.

I think the official stack is six ULT shims of 0.005 in. or three Lvl10 shims of 0.010 in. Some people manage to cram more in there. With a well used sear, I have one that is down to two lvl 10 shims and is reactive with a standard crossfire tank.

With at least an output of 800psi, you need a reg that will flow fast. You can't have one that puts out 800 psi while you're looking at the gauge and then drops to 400 psi right after the shot and coasts back up to 800 psi (it is still faster than you can really tell, but slow for the mag input). It has to smack the air into the valve to get the RT boost.

Also, the RT effect is small on the ULT, so oil the ULT, oil the sear pin, and make sure the clevis moves well and the trigger moves well. Don't let plain friction take away what little kick you get.

If that doesn't make it, you can take a dremel with the rubber polishing wheel, followed by the cloth wheel with the jewelers polish and take the machining marks off of the surface of the sear where the on/off pin sits. Just enough to remove the marks was right at 0.005 inches on my sear, which is worth one ULT shim installed. A little oil on that mirrored surface makes it very nice.

Try holding the trigger at the very top or the very bottom. You can feel the pressure better at the bottom, but the top is easier for me to keep it riding.

Be consistent with the field strip screw installation. 1/8 of a turn is worth 0.004 inches and if you put it in loose, the stack of shims can spring up, giving you a runaway trigger when really you just need to tighten the screw correctly.

**edit**
Changing frames doesn't help much, other than maybe one trigger being more loose than the other.

[crash11]

Just to clear up any confusion, this is what I have. Just added the e-mag valve with lvlx/ult.

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/4008/automagis1.th.jpg (http://img509.imageshack.us/my.php?image=automagis1.jpg)

[crash11]

Actually, if you put in a full set of shims in the ULT, it should be pretty close to RT operation.

I think the official stack is six ULT shims of 0.005 in. or three Lvl10 shims of 0.010 in. Some people manage to cram more in there. With a well used sear, I have one that is down to two lvl 10 shims and is reactive with a standard crossfire tank.

With at least an output of 800psi, you need a reg that will flow fast. You can't have one that puts out 800 psi while you're looking at the gauge and then drops to 400 psi right after the shot and coasts back up to 800 psi (it is still faster than you can really tell, but slow for the mag input). It has to smack the air into the valve to get the RT boost.

Also, the RT effect is small on the ULT, so oil the ULT, oil the sear pin, and make sure the clevis moves well and the trigger moves well. Don't let plain friction take away what little kick you get.

If that doesn't make it, you can take a dremel with the rubber polishing wheel, followed by the cloth wheel with the jewelers polish and take the machining marks off of the surface of the sear where the on/off pin sits. Just enough to remove the marks was right at 0.005 inches on my sear, which is worth one ULT shim installed. A little oil on that mirrored surface makes it very nice.

Try holding the trigger at the very top or the very bottom. You can feel the pressure better at the bottom, but the top is easier for me to keep it riding.

Be consistent with the field strip screw installation. 1/8 of a turn is worth 0.004 inches and if you put it in loose, the stack of shims can spring up, giving you a runaway trigger when really you just need to tighten the screw correctly.

**edit**
Changing frames doesn't help much, other than maybe one trigger being more loose than the other.


So far the ult had 3 .005 shims 'semi action'. I've put a extra lvlx shim ''more reactiveness'. I then put 1 more lvlx shim 'more reactiveness', but I can't find that sweet spot. I played around with different combos of shims and I get the same results. The trigger action is short /quick and that's it 'even with the reactiveness'. Maybe I have poor finger control.

[sgarmy]

So far the ult had 3 .005 shims 'semi action'. I've put a extra lvlx shim ''more reactiveness'. I then put 1 more lvlx shim 'more reactiveness', but I can't find that sweet spot. I played around with different combos of shims and I get the same results. The trigger action is short /quick and that's it 'even with the reactiveness'. Maybe I have poor finger control.


my last mag had an x valve and ult with every shim in the on off and i could get it to burst and go full auto with ease . and i was only useing a standard hp screw in

[Spider-TW]

What kind of bottle reg do you have?

I had a 3k flatline that I had adjusted to 950 psi and I could only get two or three reactive shots in a string (probably from the remote hose). High pressure helps the flow, but the reg has to be able to sustain it.

Also, make sure your velocity is set reasonably high, around 280.

At some point, the ULT will have so many shims it won't fit flush in the valve anymore. Was your rail originally an AGD rail? If the rail happens to be a little thinner, it negates that much of your shims. If it were much thicker you would have had a full auto problem.

Get it tuned as best you can and see if you can borrow a centerflag, crossfire, or a new high pressure nitroduck.

BTW, to shoot in RT you need a force feed loader. Otherwise the bolt will hit a ball and it's really hard to shoot through the level 10 recovery; idk if it's possible. 13 bps is slow for RT fire.

[crash11]

Both of my bottles are high pressure. first is the Dye throttle 45/4500, second is a DXS 48/4500. I tried both bottles on it.

I don't have a crono at the moment. I was told that the rail is from bench. The max shims I could fit into the on/off is 3 .005 and 2 .010 shims all at once. I think its chaffing with all of them in their.

I don't have my halo on it for testing 'just dry firing'. Would running paint through it make a difference?

I forgot to mention, when I first installed the valve I had the trigger pulled in while gassing up and the marker started firing full auto until I let off the trigger. With the extra shims it doesn't do that. Don't know if that helps or not.

[Spider-TW]

I forgot to mention, when I first installed the valve I had the trigger pulled in while gassing up and the marker started firing full auto until I let off the trigger. With the extra shims it doesn't do that. Don't know if that helps or not.
If it was firing with the trigger down, the on/off was leaking-by at the time.

Have you put a little oil on the shaft of the pin where it goes into the tiny black oring under the top? Those can dry out and get sticky. Run the pin carefully up and down to see how it moves. The top oring should not be too brown; there's a line between 'broken-in' and 'too old'. What kind of oil are you using?

I don't recall seeing anything about dye or dxs bottles and their flow. You might try the search tool.

Paint can make a difference (improvement), but a reliable RT trigger will run without it. The theory being that the back pressure from the ball retains more pressure and air in the valve between shots, therefore less flow is demanded of the bottle reg.

You may have noticed dry firing a level 10 bolt seems to drain a tank awfully fast.

[crash11]

If it was firing with the trigger down, the on/off was leaking-by at the time.

Have you put a little oil on the shaft of the pin where it goes into the tiny black oring under the top? Those can dry out and get sticky. Run the pin carefully up and down to see how it moves. The top oring should not be too brown; there's a line between 'broken-in' and 'too old'. What kind of oil are you using?

I don't recall seeing anything about dye or dxs bottles and their flow. You might try the search tool.

Paint can make a difference (improvement), but a reliable RT trigger will run without it. The theory being that the back pressure from the ball retains more pressure and air in the valve between shots, therefore less flow is demanded of the bottle reg.

You may have noticed dry firing a level 10 bolt seems to drain a tank awfully fast.

Yeah, put a drop of oil on the shaft and put it back together. The pin seemed to slide smoothly.
A post up pic of the top oring when I get the chance. I'm using extreme range marker oil.
lol, I running really low on the dxs tank, but still have above 2000 in the dye.

update: pic of on/off, o-rings look ok.

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/3785/picturesx5.th.jpg (http://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picturesx5.jpg)

[Spider-TW]

LOL. Extreme rage is the only lube I've ever had trouble with. Put some on an oring and rub it between your fingers with some pressure. Mine would grab my fingers after a few passes. It doesn't hurt anything, but it really doesn't seem very slick.

You might try superlube general purpose oil. You can sometimes find it in a little package to try. I've also used valvoline synthetic spray, but it doesn't last as long as superlube. AKA lube is supposed to be good also. There's a bunch of alternatives, but personally I think the rage lube is too clean for a mag. There's lots of automag lube threads.

I would try vegetable oil before I dug the rage lube out of my garage. :)

[crash11]

I've been using that oil on my ego forever with out a problem 'but that's the ego'. Ive got some Outers gun oil for my P220. I'll give that a try when I get some time.

[Storminnorman]

OIL Mags love oil. Get yourself some gold cup and lots of it, I always get mine ready the night before. I shoot the oil out of the marker without a barrel or just use a barrel (but only for that). Put 3 drops in the valve air intake and rip 60 shots out of it while holding towel over end of marker. This sill ensure everything gets some oil and oil doesn't get everywhere. Also try removing the safety and what fps are you shooting at?

[Spider-TW]

I've been using that oil on my ego forever with out a problem 'but that's the ego'. Ive got some Outers gun oil for my P220. I'll give that a try when I get some time.
Regular gun oil works, but it will harden the urethane orings and turn them brown in about a year or so. Synthetic oils preserve the orings much better. The last Outers gun oil I saw was not synthetic is the reason I say that.

After all of this, it occurs to me that the valve may actually need cleaning and/or a rebuild kit. The reg pin and piston need to be clean and lubed to run well in RT. If you have never had it apart and you bought it used, there's no telling what condition they are in.

I was wondering why my old x-valve was limping around this weekend with only two or three RT shots when I tried. I forgot to turn my regulator back up. It was just barely making it at 750 psi. :rolleyes: