Markers...

[punkncat]

The range of available items on the new and used market today is amazingly diverse. There is one of everything out there and for good prices. Aside from the "super label" high end markers of this years model, just this side of everything is going cheap. For the past couple of years we have seen the rise of the cost cutter, low end, high performance electro (fast) markers really come into their own. These things are available sub $300 new, not to mention what you can find them used for.

Now in the past I had been a bit upset by it. Watching the value of several of my high end markers plumet as this new breed just took off. I resisted for a long time even being involved in them, since they were obviously just "low quality" and "no good". There was no way that some cheaply made marker was going to perform as well as my DM, or my Angel....
Folks didn't know what to think of the Ion. Or the subsequent line of competitors in this new market. They are all cheaply made, with tolerance issues common in the milling, First generation issues, with immediate revisions (which is not exclusive to low end markers) to fix factory problems. And not uncommon to have to throw a few dollars into some upgrades the thing really needs.

I have to say though, as of late I have grown a deep appreciation for some of these cheap markers. Not only have I picked up some nice older model high ends on the cheap, but have picked up a few of the low end markers new. I have used a Mini for years without problems. I have an Ion that I am absolutely infatuated by. I honestly think it shoots as well if not better than many of the markers I have ever owned. Sure I have thrown a few dollars in it but nothing as close as I have paid up front for some other "high ends" that didn't perform better.

Now I am not trying to say that a cheaper marker is actually better than a costly high end, especially of certain types. Aside from some OBVIOUS examples of poor milling and anno processes on the high end as of late, most of those markers are as nice as you would want right out of the box. There is no need, generally, to change regs, or the bolt, or even in many cases anymore, the barrel. I can get a marker out of the box, like an Ego and easily hurt its performance by changing parts. The new DM series has almost nothing TO change. Now of course, if that is what I wanted, just to pay for something ready to use and "done" I could pick one up...and have great stuff. But then I get bored with it, and want to sell or trade it for something new.

But here is what gets me. My NEED to tinker. Part of the MAGIC of some of these low ends is the ability to tinker with it, get an upgrade that really does something, buy a part to "trick it out". Kind of like a Mag really. Not that anyone's Xvalved, UMF'ed, ULT'ed, one off Deadly Wind bodied monster shoots any better than a stock RTP. It is just that it is YOURS, built custom.....not that 50 more kids don't own one just like it somewhere. :) Gives you that feeling that you actually had a hand in making the marker what it is. Kind if like it used to be, back when you had to mod your marker to squeeze that extra little bit of it. Make it smoother, faster, look better or even just different.

I would like to see more manufacturers have available a product or products that nurture the aftermarket that way again. It has been coming round more as of late, with the economy being the way it is. The innovation and creativity that comes out of it is much needed again.

[xero28]

But here is what gets me. My NEED to tinker. Part of the MAGIC of some of these low ends is the ability to tinker with it, get an upgrade that really does something, buy a part to "trick it out". Kind of like a Mag really. Not that anyone's Xvalved, UMF'ed, ULT'ed, one off Deadly Wind bodied monster shoots any better than a stock RTP. It is just that it is YOURS, built custom.....not that 50 more kids don't own one just like it somewhere. :) Gives you that feeling that you actually had a hand in making the marker what it is. Kind if like it used to be, back when you had to mod your marker to squeeze that extra little bit of it. Make it smoother, faster, look better or even just different.


This is what I LOVE about my Mag(s). I have spent hours upon hours tweaking this here or adjusting that there to get it just right, and there is still so much to do. I think that a lot of the newer gen guns are trying to be the "set it and forget" types, but what happens if it DOES fail? You have to send it off to be teched because you don't know how to do it yourself. While this might be fine for many, I enjoy the old school aspect of tuning your own gun, being able to problem solve it yourself and find the solution. Like you said, you make it your own.

As far as the "low-end" vs. "high-end" goes, all a gun does is propel a paintball. You can do it with a $50 just as easily as a $1500 one, it all comes down to personal preference (and budget, I suppose). I think the issue does come down to how long you want the gun to perform and to what degree. I, like many of you have had a Mag for years and years, and it has never really let me down. I know guys that have a low-end electro that lasts them one, maybe two years before something gets fried or smashed or whatever. The quality just isn't what it should be. I paid $350 for my Mag in the mid '90s, if I drop that much on a new gun today, I would expect similar if not better quality and tolerances, unfortunately I don't really think we will find that. For this reason I am sticking with my beloved Mag(s) and will hopefully be shooting them as long as I am shooting paint.

-X

[rx2]

And to think: Mags used to BE the "set it and forget it" gun. You could count the aftermarket parts on one hand.

[spectre184]

And to think: Mags used to BE the "set it and forget it" gun.

Yep that's why i didnt buy cocker.......

[wetwrks]

Yep that's why i didnt buy cocker.......
:rofl:

[NoLifeLeft]

Yep that's why i didnt buy cocker.......

That's why I always have at least one mech cocker in my collection. I likes to tinker. :D

[rx2]

Yep that's why i didnt buy cocker.......

I remember being torn between a Cocker and a Mag, back in 93/94. All of the Cocker guys had all of these cool, shiny aftermarket parts on every inch of their marker, whereas the Mag guys had a Benchmark frame, a polished body, and an SP splash kit / colored rail and pf plug - and that was about it. If you were really cool you had the side-saddle squeegy and a red dot. I ended up getting the boring old Mag, though, as the guy at the shop convinced me I would spent more time playing that way.

[Watcher]

If you can't decide on which... get both :tard:

Its what I did, 2 mags and 2 cockers current... and an e-mag project in the future.

I'll always be a mag fan but with the autocockers... well, I likes to tinker :D


There is a difference between wanting an upgrade and needing an upgrade.

I had an ION for a while and absolutely hated it. Looking at the qualty and performance, if you want a cheap gun to come out of the woods and play speedball with once a month then it is a good money saver, but everything from the trigger to the reg needs to be upgraded if you are to get serious with it.
The stock feedneck is a joke, the stock barrel is sub-par, the trigger is wobbly and weak (I've seen them shot in half), and the reg is slow. The software is ok if you just shoot semi but if you want to play anything besides NNPL format you need a new board. The grips aren't the greatest... The eyes are ok I guess... The stock bolts also like to snap in half.
I've even seen blown solenoids because the reg spiked...

What I'm trying to say is, with a high end gun or an "old" high end (autococker, mag, anything palmers, etc) you get the upgrades and customize it how you want because it is how you want it. On some of the "cheap" guns you have to customize it within the confines of what has to be done to it. And that really sucks because instead of "I put $200 into this because I wanted to make it awsome" it becomes "I put $200 into this because I wanted to compete."

Some of the low end guns are fun to play around with, hell I had an old Piranha E-force (my first "speedball" gun) that I dolled up with macros, flush cocking, a better bolt and hammer, a better feedneck, a different front grip, and I modified it to take Spyder ball-bearing detents.
Did it perform any better? Well, other than the detents, no (it was shredding the rubber "finger" detents so that's why I modified it). I upgraded it because I wanted to.

I was still looking at SP guns and SLGs and such until one faithful day on Ebay I came across an old RT classic. It also came with an old airtank, a barrel, and some o-rings or something...
I spent way too much getting it, then I spent way too much fixing it ($300 in non-working condition, plus over $100 is seals, screws, springs, valve parts, and a reverse drill bit set to take stripped screws out, plus an ASA and the mounting screws and some kind of juice to get the old dried paint off the rail and eat/stop the tarnish). In the end I probably put $500 into it, and seeing the condition it is in now and shooting it exactly the same as it would have shot out of the box had me sold on 'Mags forever.

After I traded the Piranha for the ION, I traded that for a RT Pro.

Now I don't think I'll ever buy a "cheap" gun or a SP gun. A good cheap gun would be a PMR, $500 range and it comes ready to play, only needs upgrades for my desires... That isn't exactly cheap by most marker standards, it more or less straddles the middleground so...
My "cheap" gun is my $50 PMI Trracer :rolleyes:

[usagi_tetsu]

I gave up on the paintball arms race years ago, pretty much when I figured out that electroflingers had reached their pinnacle with 2 important inventions - anti-chop eyes and force-fed, high speed hoppers. Except for having lighter, more compact markers these days (and the fact that everyone's stock regulators are pretty decent now-a-days, instead of the thrown together POSs of yesteryear), you could take an old school electroflinger and get performance out of it similar to anything. Let's take the Toxic Toys Tribal for instance - built in the mid to late 90s, comes with a pretty basic board, but operates like half the markers out there (Angels, Impulses, Bushies, Cyborgs, Timmies, just to name a few). You can replace the boards with the latest and greatest from Tadao (the Chaos boards from Goldie are real popular), drill a few holes and put break-beam anti-chop eyes, throw in a few reg upgrades (as the stock Tribal regs tended to be pretty bad), and you've got an electroflinger that may not look as swoopy as your modern pieces and it's admittedly heavier, but it performs just like one. The only thing driving the modern paintball marker's price these days is fashion - if you ain't cool (or "AGG"), you just ain't a serious 'baller.

[Dark Side]

I remember being torn between a Cocker and a Mag, back in 93/94. All of the Cocker guys had all of these cool, shiny aftermarket parts on every inch of their marker, whereas the Mag guys had a Benchmark frame, a polished body, and an SP splash kit / colored rail and pf plug - and that was about it. If you were really cool you had the side-saddle squeegy and a red dot. I ended up getting the boring old Mag, though, as the guy at the shop convinced me I would spent more time playing that way.

Ah come on. I remember when the only thing anybody eally wanted for their Mag was a Splash kit. I love to find a complete kit nowadays. :rofl: