Tiberius Sniper Rounds, Info from TK

[AGD]

All,

Tiberius has just introduced their "Sniper Rounds" and there is a lot of discussion on the forums. Just to set things straight, here is the scoop:

They are made by Perfect Circle the same company that makes the FN303 rounds.

They are marketed by Tiberius.

They are spin stabilized just like the FN303 with the fins

They weigh 3 grams like a regular paintball (the 303 projectiles weigh 8 grams)

Thousands of rounds have been shot in development at PCP.

They are easily as accurate as the heavier 303 rounds and we think this is because they have more aggressive fins that make them spin up faster out of the barrel. I heard some incredible accuracy numbers from the tests, but since I have not shot them myself, I don't want to say anything.

The front of the paintball breaks, the backs generally don't.

The back end is completely hollow, this is where we save the weight.

They can be loaded backwards down the barrel if you want to use them in a regular marker.

Tiberius is working on a clip fed conversion kit for their markers, from what I understand this includes a barrel and clip replacement.

I believe the price will be less than a buck each.

This info comes from my partner who is running PCP but since I am in AZ now, I am not there to see what exactly is going on.

AGD

[michbich]

Just to add to your post.

http://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp220/plourde_15/img_5941.jpg

http://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp220/plourde_15/img_5943.jpg

http://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp220/plourde_15/img_5945.jpg

http://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp220/plourde_15/img_5946.jpg

[mostpeople]

Sniper round eh.. does it fly farther?

I am very skeptical

[michbich]

At a 45 degree angle, it is advertised at 500ft compared to 300ft with conventional paint.

[mostpeople]

At a 45 degree angle, it is advertised at 500ft compared to 300ft with conventional paint.

so I can lob a dollar 500 feet instead of lobbing 3 cents 300 feet?

[eXo_oUtSiDeR]

yeah ill probably be sticking with regular paint. But they would be neat to try out none the less! :D

[Sundown]

so I can lob a dollar 500 feet instead of lobbing 3 cents 300 feet?

haha good point :)

Looking forward to seeing how this develops. Not sure if it will become very popular though.
you can't just drop all these in a hopper and go shoot.

So maybe allot better for ''law enforcement training''.
Which is probably the reason they created this in the first place :)

[Looper]

Tiberius is working on a clip fed conversion kit for their markers, from what I understand this includes a barrel and clip replacement.


Looking forward to seeing how this develops. Not sure if it will become very popular though. you can't just drop all these in a hopper and go shoot.

So maybe allot better for ''law enforcement training''.
Which is probably the reason they created this in the first place :)

More than likely it's Tiberius trying to stave off the New Tippmann pistol marker coming out with the cheaper clips and a slimmer handle grip.

[Rudz]

hmmmm, id love to see one of these in action

[BigEvil]

Probably more geared towards law enforcement training.

[StygShore]

imagine TA will come out wiht a "ultimate sniper" configuration of the T9 platform or something to go along with these.

Imagine pullin out a T9 pistol and gogging someone at 400+ feet - think they might pull you and check to see if you are hot :)


Styg

[Miltonyz]

A dollar a round is expensive but you have to figure that are at the begining of their development cycle with lower production numbers. If they took off in a big way economies of scale should bring the price down. How much did paintballs cost per round when they first came out? Heck if it is extermely accurate in the long run would could save money shooting these balls. At 50 a case for cheap paint you are looking at 2.5 cents a ball. At 13 balls a second you are shooting 32 cents a second. If you can pop a guy in two or three tiberous rounds as opposed to dumping a pod, how much do you lose?

I'm sure that some scenario guys with their sniper get up would love to try this. My concern is that it appears to have sarificed paint volume for weight reduction? How well does it mark.

[deathbypaint1213]

Probably more geared towards law enforcement training.

Definately. My dad is a detective, and he talks to me alot about pepperballs and other less - lethal projectiles. I just find it un - conventional to go to the spring - fed magazine; whereas it is a hell of a lot easier loading your hopper. (Especically on how much paint the average player uses). I think they would kick*** in stock-class play though

[Coralis]

I can also see a use for scenario play , those who like to get all geared up in ghille suits and pump guns would probably find the extra range and accuracy a big bonus.

[Ruler_Mark]

I can also see a use for scenario play , those who like to get all geared up in ghille suits and pump guns would probably find the extra range and accuracy a big bonus.


scenarios are always FPO though.

[dark blade]

not 100% true... some scenarios around my hometown in MA are BYOP

[Zone Drifter]

This is very interesting. I had been contemplating getting a tib pistol simply because I like to run around alot in scenario games and the lighter the load, the better. An actual accurate shot would be extremely useful for those of us who like to travel light, or even commanders in those big games. the main thing abut these, is that most places only allow field paint, so it might be useless anywhere but for rec play. Also, how does the impact of the bolt effect the fins, and how can they be shot normally by putting them in backwards? Still too many questions and I'm sure they will be answered in time. Still, a very interesting concept that I hope to see more about!

[Stargazer54]

Thanks for answering some questions I had about this.
Does anyone know if these are plastic, or gel? The 303
rounds are made out of plastic for those not aware of it.

Sincerely,

[McMahon]

This may be a dumb question but what are the casing and fins made out of?

[billmi]

Sniper round eh.. does it fly farther?

I am very skeptical

According to Gary Gibson from Perfect Circle Paintball, you can expect to have one shot eliminations at 150 feet.

There's a video interview of him talking about the new projectiles in the Paintball Extravaganza episode of PigTV at http://www.PigTV.net.

I would disagree with the claim that this is the first sniper round, as there were paintballs with coned back ends with fins glued to them marketed many years ago as muzzle-loaded sniper rounds. This does look like the first *practical* sniper round though, as there already exist markers capable of magazine feeding them (albeit for LEO use at higher velocities) and we should see retrofit kits to allow them to be magazine fed in all of the Tiberius markers within a month.

[Swamp Thing]

This is info from my Sponsor who has good relationship with Tiberius and who just attended the Atlanta Trade show

"it's here. It does exist. I'm bringing several tubes of 8 home with me.

It's related to an already established LTL round/system.

Tiberius is offering it as a retrofit upgrade for any Tiberius 8 or 9.

Pricing will be under $200 (prob around $150). The new First Strike will also allow you to use regular paint in addition to the First Strike rounds.

The FS rounds are plastic shelled that are photo/bio degradable.

Fields will be carrying the rounds soon as well as the fields field paint. There are prob a lot of fields that will waive the FPO rule for these since they will be a specialty item and much narrower spectrum than round paint.

Pricing will be "high", but not bad. It cost a lot to develop/manufacture, but once you figure out a general shots/kill and shots/accuracy ratio, they are actually a great value for a lot of us heavy triggers
Pricing is tentatively set at $5.95/8 rounds ($.75 ea)

IMHO I think they will have a very significant impact on our sport.
I personally plan on running/gunning with the First Strike system as my primary.

FYI: The general designs have been drawn, parts and materials have already been ordered. Underground Mod Shop will have an exclusive short run "signature series" available est around two months out. They will be "substantial" on the grand scale of overall coolness, not just the PCS (paintball cool scale)(tm ums)"

Also I bet you can talk a field owner to wave FPO for a small fee for this round only. They can not be shot from a hopper so you are really not talking about a round that will cost him most of his paint sales.

Swamp
__________________

[mostpeople]

I personally plan on running/gunning with the First Strike system as my primary.

Full steam ahead on the failboat!

[MANN]

lol.

This is a good idea, but paintballs dont go fast enough to make this a GREAT option.

I will try it before making a final decision, but IMO it would be hard to make it better than what we have already. I can already shoot someone 40 ft away on the first/second shot.

[hitech]

Very interesting. I always thought increasing the spin rate might work but couldn't get manike to try it.

[Old School 626]

While this is novel and interesting, I see this as setting paintball back about 20 years. Back to stripper clips. Time to update the SMG 60's to 68 cal? I can see Tippman salivating over this, or calling the patent lawyers getting ready to use the SMG-60 as prior art.

[doc_Zox]

http://premium1.uploadit.org/docZox//denver_veritas2.jpg
Veritas Tactical T-4

Denver police are stocking up on guns that fire a pepper spray-like substance instead of bullets - a less-lethal weapon used to disperse crowds - in advance of the Democratic National Convention.

The department recently ordered 88 Mark IV launchers and projectiles at a cost “in the low six figures,” the company that makes the weapons stated in a news release Monday.

The request was for delivery in advance of the DNC, according to Louisville- based Security With Advanced Technology Inc.

The convention, scheduled for Aug. 25 to 28 at the Pepsi Center, is expected to draw thousands of protesters to sites throughout Denver.

[Dend78]

these things would be a pumpers dream if you had a mag fed pump

[Muzikman]

Cool idea. I need to pick me up some of those.

Looks about right.

http://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp220/plourde_15/img_5945.jpg

http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2202/230/21/1329439626/n1329439626_30238819_1531.jpg


BTW, Hi Tom...good to know your still kicking.

[manike]

I had the booth opposite Tiberius at the Paintball Extravaganza to show off the Prophecy loader, I recognized Gary, even though I hadn't seen him probably since 1997! It took him a few seconds then he recognized me too. :)

We talked through the projectiles and I am very excited to see these hit the market. I'll be working on my FN303 to get the velocity down then I'll shoot some and do a video. Tyler promised me a kit for my Tiberius 8 too. I can't wait. :)

Thanks to Gary and Tyler for giving me some of the projectiles to test out. I'm really looking forward to it.

[Spider-TW]

Accuracy I believe, and at that cost, clips make sense. It's a minie ball vs a regular ball.

With the back being hollow, I would think they could redesign the fins a little to reduce the wash on the back and give the airflow a little more taper. Those fins look almost the same as the FN303 rounds.

[DevilMan]

They should produce them in BRIGHT COLORS so that those that actually are broke and do use them can at least find a few that they shoot once in awhile and reuse them.

That's if they'd be "reloadable"

Interesting idea and all, and I'm curious for the video/testing/proof.

DM

[Bruteforce]

My main thought is that although they have greater range and accuracy; will the FS actually break when it hits its target, after all it is still traveling at the same speed as a regular paintball.

[Sumthinwicked]

id use this with my lb LOL

[Spider-TW]

My main thought is that although they have greater range and accuracy; will the FS actually break when it hits its target, after all it is still traveling at the same speed as a regular paintball.
If they have greater range at a muzzle velocity of 280 fps, they must be retaining more energy downrange with less drag. I expect that is why they claim a practical range of 150 ft instead of some huge number. It should work like an accurate flatline barrel.

[jade_monkey07]

They can be loaded backwards down the barrel if you want to use them in a regular marker.

Id carry some around. turn the hopper off, muzzle load one and turn on the red dot on my tac. But wouldnt it change flight path slightly when the fins flip it around?
It has the same spiral as the hammerhead barrels. I wonder if they will be even more accurate through rifled barrels because they will already be spinning. or get spun up to speed faster.....

[hitech]

Any chance we could get a "re-ball" version for accuracy testing and sighting in?

[Sumthinwicked]

good call on the reball one LOL

[the123]

I'd like to have a E-Tac with a laucher and scope attached. The magazine could drop down vertically with the battery pack. Imagine a kit where you add your own mag valve and then slide it onto your Tac 1. I'm intrested! Lets go out to the woods!
Tom- is the fin stabilized design your invention?

[L3MUR]

wow. those are really cool. I wonder if I'll see anybody using those this summer.

[Spider-TW]

But wouldnt it change flight path slightly when the fins flip it around?
:spit_take

I had the same thought at first. He means muzzle loaded, pushed backwards down the barrel.

I would think the fins would shred if it was actually loaded backwards. :argh:

[AGD]

Guys,

The design is way more aerodynamic so it holds velocity much longer. It will break on a long range target where a normal ball will not. Concerning the price, you need to think accuracy vs volume. If your average paintball is 3 cents, and it takes 30 shots to take the guy out, its cheaper to use the sniper round once. Hey, shooting is fun and the more the merrier but it would be fun after 20 years of playing this game to scope a guy and take him out with one shot.

Imagine your radio linked sniper team hidden in place surrounding a fort. The ambush team is waiting for for your call to charge the wall. You wait until the guys in the fort feel comfortable with no visible enemy outside and are exposed in the windows. On radio command, all snipers shoot one round simultaneously and suddenly there is no one defending the fort for a minute while the ambush team rushes in.

Unfortunately all of you have played the one "speedball" game of paintball for so long you can't conceive of other ways to do this and hence any new ideas seem stupid. This is the first truly new product to come out in paintball in a decade. Turn it down and there may never be another as paintball fades into the sunset. Every single major paintball company today is loosing money. Only the players can turn that around.

AGD

[jade_monkey07]

I really think it is a good idea, im just thinking about if it will take off or not. i hope to see them for purchase soon I cant wait to try them out

[Beemer]

There's a video interview of him talking about the new projectiles in the Paintball Extravaganza episode of PigTV at http://www.PigTV.net.


Um ecuuuuse me did you all miss this interview with Mr. Gibson from P.C.P.??

It starts at 13min and 36sec. in.


Areodynamic fin stabilized projectile.

Maintains spin over its entire flight.

No need for a rifiled barrel.

More areodynamic efficient then a ball. :shooting:

Holds velocity longer because of less drag then a sphere.

Effective range more then double. :D

In the range of 25x better accuracy. :ninja:

Not affected by temp and humidity. :clap:

Its a Paradigm Shift thing. Like hopper off the top and force feed loarders. Hey you cant use the warpfeed. Why not? Because its a force feed and we dont allow that. :spit_take

Any more questions? :D

[Ninjeff]

i think these things are pretty awesome.

I sure hope the cost comes down a bit though.....

I'd love to try them

[Spider-TW]

Not affected by temp and humidity. :clap:
That alone is worth some consideration.

[Kris]

If the hype is true, here is why I will be buying a scenario marker with these in it.

if they are 20x more accurate I can go on the field with 20 rounds instead of 400! Or hopefully 2 clips of twenty!

And if some folks deploy these on the filed, those that are without will be seriously outgunned. (At twice the range they could stand in the open eliminating you at thier leisure!)

Less weight means I can carry more loot! Ever try to roll a barrel of hooch while carrying 1000 rounds of paint and a marker/tank/hopper? I'de feel way more comfortable slinging a rifle (With air inside the marker,clip fed, ie more useable.) over my shoulder than a marker/hopper/tank. Especially if there wasn't a pack full of paint back there.

Ever wonder why real weapons are shaped / function the way they do? Well it sure isn't to look cool. There form is a direct result of their need to function. A big old tub of paint on top of a weapon seemed ungainly and ugly to me.

I see this going a long way for scenario games. (And as some people think tourney ball is dying...)

[MANN]

The theory of having a paintball marker that can shoot 200ft with dead on accuracy is nice, but is it better than what we have? I would dare to say that most good paintball players (myself included :D )can shoot 5bps (mech or elec), and hit a 12X12 target from 80'. Most fields that I have played on dont have 80+' open areas that need "sniping" woodsball or speedball. There are trees/branches/leaves/something in the way.

I will probally pick up a tac8. if for nothing else the ability to have a handgun for kicks and giggles. I had one at one time, and it was fun. Just impractical for paintball use.

edit: I would dare to say that certain member here could out shoot one of these. He probally wont admit it, but I would be willing to bet my xmag that he could. Those who have played with him at Tunaball & AO south know exactly who I am talking about.

[Lohman446]

It would be nice to see a company producing a product that allowed sustainable profitability without having to sell several thousand to each player every weekend....

This is intriguing :)

[Barsse]

What about the damage to the barrel? I realize plastic is softer than steel and aluminum, but if you rub it long enough, it's bound to do something... right?

[Miltonyz]

can shoot 5bps (mech or elec), and hit a 12X12 target from 80'.

Of course if you can hit a foot from 80' feet in one or two shots you are at a definite advantage. I can see this affecting even speedball. Supressive fire will always have a place, but there is no reason for there not to be a place for increased accuracy. I can't even count the number of times that I have had a wide open shot on a player only to watch my paintballs part in front of him like the red sea. Or missed a head by a quarter inch and he pops back into cover. The ability to make a posted shot count would be wonderful.


Paintball's funny in that we are a sport primarily played by young players but we hate change more then an 80 year old republican.

[UThomas]

How does the bolt interact with the fins? Would it crush them if dropped in the breach of a normal blow forward?

A new breach for X-mags to take clips of these would be cool.

[Sumthinwicked]

idEA breach for the micromag 2009 for clip fed ;)!

[Lohman446]

Air consumption.

If I can carry 1/20th of the paint I can carry a far smaller air tank. If I am not firing quickly (accuracy by volume) and they are not affected by temperature and humidity the old nemesis CO2 comes back into question. If I need far less air, the 12 gram comes back into consideration. If I am using a 12 gram (or a very small internally located tank) marker design becomes more interesting.

Give me a "bolt action" single shot, I'll load them one at a time.

[Sumthinwicked]

i was thinking the same thing ;) ill use these in my longbow if i can be cool to use them with the micro to though muhahahhaha

[doc_Zox]

What would be sweet would be for AGD to make a run of single shot, break breech, snipers with on board 8ci 3000psi HPA in the butt stock

The Automag Quigley

heck, it could undermount a Metadyne havoc and you could snipe & demo

aim small, miss small

[UThomas]

Does this also change the optimal length of barrels? Does it change the sound signature of the marker?

[drewkroeker]

I would definitely be interested in using these in a game or at least testing them. As far as setups go, I would want to have a magazine fed automag, or a pump of some kind. I also have questions about the fins' durability. The mag would be my preferred setup, but if the bolt hits the projectile too hard, I would be fine with a pump simply because the closed bolt action would be gentler.

I like the idea of making a breech for the x mag that can accept these paintballs, but since I don't have an x mag I would prefer if we could get ULE bodies milled for it (or I guess I would have to buy an x mag. Sigh) :D

I will definitely be checking back on this thread. Hopefully someone on this forum will soon get to shoot some of these and can tell us their impression of it.

[MANN]

I can't even count the number of times that I have had a wide open shot on a player only to watch my paintballs part in front of him like the red sea. Or missed a head by a quarter inch and he pops back into cover. The ability to make a posted shot count would be wonderful.
.[/QUOTE]

That happens with everything. I missed shooting the deer by an inch or two. I missed the basket by an inch or two.

People IMO are not going to be able to aim that well. The masses are still going to have problems.

I hope this idea works out...if for nothing else to see tom make some money. I just dont think the practicality of it is up to par yet. Maybe if it catches on they will improve on it.

[teufelhunden]

People IMO are not going to be able to aim that well. The masses are still going to have problems.

I hope this idea works out...if for nothing else to see tom make some money. I just dont think the practicality of it is up to par yet. Maybe if it catches on they will improve on it.

If these really are 25x more accurate than a normal paintball, they may allow for actually useful sighting devices (maybe not super sniper scopes [alliteration suppp], but a red dot or ACOG-type sight). With that, provided the user properly zeroes them, this could actually be more useful.

That said, it's funny that TK posts a thread with "Info from TK" in the subject.

[Lohman446]

If these really are 25x more accurate than a normal paintball, they may allow for actually useful sighting devices (maybe not super sniper scopes [alliteration suppp], but a red dot or ACOG-type sight). With that, provided the user properly zeroes them, this could actually be more useful.

That said, it's funny that TK posts a thread with "Info from TK" in the subject.


Leupold will make scopes with ballistic markings to the points you want them (Granted its normally yards, but they will do it), other companies make muzzleloader specific scopes with the markes in the right spots.

This is a consistant projectile that htey can put a consistant velocity on, its a good candidate for a well marked scope IMO

[Mayvik]

I lol at all you guys with your single shots. These are going in my SMG68 for "counter-sniping" ;)

[Swamp Thing]

By the look of it the alignment of the ball is going to be very important.

I doubt that a longbow will be able to feed them as the drop out of the longbow into the breach is not tight and the fins will not fit with our traditional round holes in things like longbow mags and such.

Tiberius is behind this because the Tiberius mag feed system feeds directly in a controlled manner into the breach. Even for a Tiberius it requires a new clip system with a different shape to hold the rounds and a new barrel with a different opening.

I think the only type of feed system that is going to work has to feed directly into the breach with no bends or turns. In addition to that the shape of the hole in your barrel will have to be altered to use it.

In short Unless you are gonna feed them one by one you are most likely gonna have to adapt or modify your marker to take any of these in a feed system.

All this being said I think that a spring fed clip for the Micromag could be made to fit that breach system. It would have to stick out of the side like a sten gun but that is not a huge deal.

Swamp

[mostpeople]

This is a compete hipshot - as I haven't done this sort of analysis for years now, but here is a rough analysis of drag on these two bodies.

First, the paintball as a sphere has drag decreasing with velocity. The higher the velocity, the higher the reynolds number, the lower the drag. The calculated reynolds number for sea level and a 1cm ball traveling at 300 fps is approximately 6.03 × 10^4.

This graph, found here (http://www.coes.latech.edu/tutorials/htwalr/COES_laboratory_sample.doc) shows Coefficient of drag vs. Reynolds number.

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7145/revscdff8.jpg

Drag is defined as http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/7/2/d/72d686af4bdf6ffdff7928e3a20cb4b5.png all factors are universal except coefficient of drag, the reference area is the same (it fits in the same barrels as regular markers. (source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_(physics)))

As you can see from the graph, the Coefficient of friction is around 0.8 at that Reynolds number. Using this (http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/shaped.html) source, you can see the approximate drag coefficient on a bullet shape object is 0.297. The cylinder is a bit longer than the "sniper round" but you get the point. It appears, that the drag on a "sniper round" would be higher than that of a sphere.

*Note this does not take into account friction. There is a larger surface area exposed to the axial flow on the sniper round, and therefore this could affect Cd as well.


Unfortunately I do not have my texts anymore, nor do I have any of the proper equipment to do a proper analysis. Thats why I callt his a "hipshot" analysis as its just some supporting evidence that the round may not fly as far as is claimed. To truly know, if the sniper round performs as they say it does we would need an analysis similar to cockerpunk's series of analysis or wind tunnel tests. Thats a little extreme, but hopefully I've made my point, 1 dollar per round that may or may not out-perform a .03 cent round is not what I call being smart with money. I also don't want to see a 'smart parts' type claim where simply because someone says something, its automatically considered true. I post this in the hopes of an in-depth analysis of the round, and if it does turn out to out-perform a standard spherical round more power to it. I however, am skeptical. My belief is that these rounds are equally as accurate, and fly an equal, if not shorter distance. So lets see some proof that they outperform regular paintballs!

The Fn303 argument, someone brought this up. These rounds appear similar to the Fn303 round, but as I understand it those are both heavier, and are fired at a faster velocity than paintball rounds, voiding the argument. Correct me if I am wrong.

[MANN]

If these really are 25x more accurate than a normal paintball, they may allow for actually useful sighting devices

post a thread asking who mr. knight is. some people are accurate wiithout scopes/fins. 25 times :rofl: maybe 2-3, but not 25.

[MANN]

heck. someone find out where to buy these, and I will stick a few in my viking.

[Sumthinwicked]

swamp put in sniper rounds one at a time if need be... ;) or use first one a sniper round the other 20 be springfeed lb clip aka muzzel load the first shot in the barrel put in the clip u have one in the chamber for the detent and 20 to back it up

[Swamp Thing]

From the clip pics it looks like the fins will not fit in a standard tiberius magazine. I saw a pic of the new magazine top down and It has a totally different shape. I think if you tried to load them in a standard mag they would either jam or tear the fins off.

Swamp

Here is link to pics of magazine

http://www.techpb.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=15778

[Hilltop Customs]

This is a compete hipshot - as I haven't done this sort of analysis for years now, but here is a rough analysis of drag on these two bodies.

First, the paintball as a sphere has drag decreasing with velocity. The higher the velocity, the higher the reynolds number, the lower the drag. The calculated reynolds number for sea level and a 1cm ball traveling at 300 fps is approximately 6.03 × 10^4.

This graph, found here (http://www.coes.latech.edu/tutorials/htwalr/COES_laboratory_sample.doc) shows Coefficient of drag vs. Reynolds number.

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7145/revscdff8.jpg

Drag is defined as http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/7/2/d/72d686af4bdf6ffdff7928e3a20cb4b5.png all factors are universal except coefficient of drag, the reference area is the same (it fits in the same barrels as regular markers. (source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_(physics)))

As you can see from the graph, the Coefficient of friction is around 0.8 at that Reynolds number. Using this (http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/shaped.html) source, you can see the approximate drag coefficient on a bullet shape object is 0.297. The cylinder is a bit longer than the "sniper round" but you get the point. It appears, that the drag on a "sniper round" would be higher than that of a sphere.

*Note this does not take into account friction. There is a larger surface area exposed to the axial flow on the sniper round, and therefore this could affect Cd as well.


Unfortunately I do not have my texts anymore, nor do I have any of the proper equipment to do a proper analysis. Thats why I callt his a "hipshot" analysis as its just some supporting evidence that the round may not fly as far as is claimed. To truly know, if the sniper round performs as they say it does we would need an analysis similar to cockerpunk's series of analysis or wind tunnel tests. Thats a little extreme, but hopefully I've made my point, 1 dollar per round that may or may not out-perform a .03 cent round is not what I call being smart with money. I also don't want to see a 'smart parts' type claim where simply because someone says something, its automatically considered true. I post this in the hopes of an in-depth analysis of the round, and if it does turn out to out-perform a standard spherical round more power to it. I however, am skeptical. My belief is that these rounds are equally as accurate, and fly an equal, if not shorter distance. So lets see some proof that they outperform regular paintballs!

The Fn303 argument, someone brought this up. These rounds appear similar to the Fn303 round, but as I understand it those are both heavier, and are fired at a faster velocity than paintball rounds, voiding the argument. Correct me if I am wrong.

Trying to compare the two projectiles mathmatically is way to complicated. Slight variations of projectiles can make large differences. I agree on skepticism, but using formulas to attempt disprove the rounds claims is just as bad as repeating the claims without first hand experience with it.

it wouldnt take any in-depth analysis to compare the rounds....fire them at the same velocity, at the same angle, with the same conditions.....whichever flies further is carrying more energy downfield and has less drag.


At a 45 degree angle, it is advertised at 500ft compared to 300ft with conventional paint.

If thats, true then the "sniper round" has less drag. Just wish they would have gave a realistic angle of fire instead of using a high angle to produce a impressive difference between their round and a normal paintball.

I wanna see 2 things:
1st: Targets shot by locked down markers firing both these rounds and standards parintballs.(known distances)
2nd: A video of showing the projectile curve of a standard paintball and this round fired at the same angle and velocity.

I would also be curious about gas usage of these vs standard paintballs.

[mostpeople]

Wait what? You're saying you don't trust math?

What I am saying is that mathematically the claims do not hold up, at least to this old fart. There may be something I didn't consider, there usually is haha, but stll, the numbers don't lie dude.

[Ninjeff]

the more i think about these, the more i like them. I love the idea, and if/when they come out, i'd really love to try them. Especially in a T9 rifle config.

[cockerpunk]

we'll be checking these out, i have some on the way though my sources. we will certianly run some test, take some highspeed (yes, we are getting highspeed) to see what they can do.

seems pretty sweet, i dont doubt that they can outperform a sphere.

[Hilltop Customs]

Wait what? You're saying you don't trust math?

What I am saying is that mathematically the claims do not hold up, at least to this old fart. There may be something I didn't consider, there usually is haha, but stll, the numbers don't lie dude.

Oh, i trust math, but math doesnt guarantee that is the correct drag coefficient to use. Estimating drag coefficient by the general bullet shape of the "sniper round" is not sufficient. The bullet shape coefficient does not account for spin, the fins, the hollow back side of the round, and many other details. You could estimate a golf ball by using a sphere, but then you would use the wrong drag coefficient and results would be way off. I trust concrete, repeatable results more than any estimate.

Mathematically, without the drag coefficient, any calculation done is an estimate. You cant disprove something with an estimate.

[rx2]

post a thread asking who mr. knight is. some people are accurate wiithout scopes/fins. 25 times :rofl: maybe 2-3, but not 25.

I think that, perhaps, we should be thinking more about precision. I have yet to find a marker that is precise enough where someone could expect reproducible accuracy at more than, say, 50 feet. Even that may be stretching it (I find many people overestimate the distances they actually shoot at). With knuckling, odd arcing, and the like, fliers are the norm. It is impossible to make an imprecise instrument accurate.

Of course, I wouldn't expect exceptional accuracy with these, either - especially with the pistol platform. Most people couldn't hit headshots with an actual pistol, standing at the 50 (I have seen "trained" professionals that are lucky to get shots in the silhouette at this range). Hell, many real pistols simply aren't even that precise, let alone an improved marker. I think that it is more of a pipe-dream that you are going to be gogging people on the snap from long-range; at least for most people. Another problem is with the precision of the markers themselves. You have to keep things tight in order to take advantage of improved accuracy.

Nonetheless, I wouldn't write it off completely. While the 25x improvement may be in relation to the absolute worst case, I wouldn't be surprised to see an improvement well beyond the 2-3x that you surmise.

My concern for this concept is that most people will expect a miracle, find out that they still need to know how to shoot, and thus go on about how these don't work. I will say, though, that as a competitive shooter, I would be interested in seeing just what kind of precision these things can deliver.

[cockerpunk]

I think that, perhaps, we should be thinking more about precision. I have yet to find a marker that is precise enough where someone could expect reproducible accuracy at more than, say, 50 feet. Even that may be stretching it (I find many people overestimate the distances they actually shoot at). With knuckling, odd arcing, and the like, fliers are the norm. It is impossible to make an imprecise instrument accurate.

Of course, I wouldn't expect exceptional accuracy with these, either - especially with the pistol platform. Most people couldn't hit headshots with an actual pistol, standing at the 50 (I have seen "trained" professionals that are lucky to get shots in the silhouette at this range). Hell, many real pistols simply aren't even that precise, let alone an improved marker. I think that it is more of a pipe-dream that you are going to be gogging people on the snap from long-range; at least for most people. Another problem is with the precision of the markers themselves. You have to keep things tight in order to take advantage of improved accuracy.

Nonetheless, I wouldn't write it off completely. While the 25x improvement may be in relation to the absolute worst case, I wouldn't be surprised to see an improvement well beyond the 2-3x that you surmise.

My concern for this concept is that most people will expect a miracle, find out that they still need to know how to shoot, and thus go on about how these don't work. I will say, though, that as a competitive shooter, I would be interested in seeing just what kind of precision these things can deliver.

i disagree.

at 50 feet we saw a CEP of about 2.5 inch radius.

thats more accurate then anyone i know can shoot.

[DevilMan]

The proof will be in the pudding.

Until then it's anyone's game. Those that think it will work will think it will work. Those that don't... won't.

Tis simple.

Let CockerPunk do his tests (You guys could consider donating paint/supplies to the cause) and let it go from there.

Oh and for the record I think it will work not only because of the fins and such but because of the consistency at which they are produced. That's my biggest issue with paint, barrels, guns, etc... if you are consistent you get good results. Variations means poor results. Whether it's paint, reg, tank, etc...

DM

[mostpeople]

Oh, i trust math, but math doesnt guarantee that is the correct drag coefficient to use. Estimating drag coefficient by the general bullet shape of the "sniper round" is not sufficient. The bullet shape coefficient does not account for spin, the fins, the hollow back side of the round, and many other details. You could estimate a golf ball by using a sphere, but then you would use the wrong drag coefficient and results would be way off. I trust concrete, repeatable results more than any estimate.

Mathematically, without the drag coefficient, any calculation done is an estimate. You cant disprove something with an estimate.


Ahh and I agree with you, thats why I labeled it a hipshot, an estimate, an argument for a reason why they MIGHT not perfrom the way they are advertised.

My goal of the post is to get some serious testing on these things because, well obviously - I am skeptical :D

As far as the coefficient, its going to be higher than a sphere, that is garaunteed, the issue is the laminar flow behind the ball, which, obviously doesn't exist with the shroud. The hollow backside will make it more turbulent, and the spin with friction ignored will not affect the drag. The fins, will only cause more drag, which is the issue I am getting at.

[cockerpunk]

Ahh and I agree with you, thats why I labeled it a hipshot, an estimate, an argument for a reason why they MIGHT not perfrom the way they are advertised.

My goal of the post is to get some serious testing on these things because, well obviously - I am skeptical :D

As far as the coefficient, its going to be higher than a sphere, that is garaunteed, the issue is the laminar flow behind the ball, which, obviously doesn't exist with the shroud. The hollow backside will make it more turbulent, and the spin with friction ignored will not affect the drag. The fins, will only cause more drag, which is the issue I am getting at.

without doing the CFD myself, im gonna say that the shape has A LOT less drag then a sphere. and it has two very good stabilizing factors on top of the less drag. i can't really see a reason why it doesn't work. its based off the fn 303, a millitary/para milliray weapon, so i dont see a reason why it shouldn't work.

i for one think it works, but im very interested in sticking this thing under our new highspeed camera and seeing what it looks like at 1200 fps.

[mostpeople]

without doing the CFD myself, im gonna say that the shape has A LOT less drag then a sphere. and it has two very good stabilizing factors on top of the less drag. i can't really see a reason why it doesn't work. its based off the fn 303, a millitary/para milliray weapon, so i dont see a reason why it shouldn't work.

i for one think it works, but im very interested in sticking this thing under our new highspeed camera and seeing what it looks like at 1200 fps.


nah dude, it has more drag.. more surface area exposed to the axial flow

[cockerpunk]

nah dude, it has more drag.. more surface area exposed to the axial flow

its all in the way the boundary layer effects the drag shape

[mostpeople]

well right, thats what im saying, at that high speed/reynolds number.. the flow is laminar, with little turbulence on the backend.. meaning its very aerodynamic

[cockerpunk]

well right, thats what im saying, at that high speed/reynolds number.. the flow is laminar, with little turbulence on the backend.. meaning its very aerodynamic

now i have no idea what your talking about. your tossing out terms without knowing what they mean. and now you say its more aerodynamic? im just confused here.

[mostpeople]

now i have no idea what your talking about. your tossing out terms without knowing what they mean. and now you say its more aerodynamic? im just confused here.

I am an aerospace engineering major, a drunk one at that! haha

But I digress..

basically the flow follows the contour of the ball past the apex or center on top and bottom of the ball towards the back, do you have aim? hit me up name = m0stpeople

[rx2]

i disagree.

at 50 feet we saw a CEP of about 2.5 inch radius.

thats more accurate then anyone i know can shoot.

So a clamped-down shot group of a 5-inch diameter, from 50 feet? If so, that is still pretty imprecise. As you say, most people can't shoot that with a pistol. Now, imagine if they had to shoot with a pistol as imprecise as that.

I have shot 5-inch groups, standing, from the 50, with my issued G17 with extra-heavy trigger and crappy 3-dot night sights. It is by no means a target pistol. Still, though, if you clamp it down, you are going to get a 1-inch group - much more precise than 5 inches. This basically assures that, where I am aiming, the round should go (at 50 feet). So, despite being a very good shot, I still amplify the imprecision of the pistol significantly. If you handed me a gun that was, at best, capable of a 5-inch group, I would probably be shooting 15-inch groups (maybe worse). To make matters worse, I couldn't realistically expect every shot to go where I was aiming, thus exacerbating the problem. When you only have a 5-inch target to hit, that is fairly significant.

Perhaps I am being too critical, but by my frame of reference, 5-inches is still pretty poor, especially considering the controlled environment. None the less, that is better than I had expected. As such, MANN's suspicion of 2-3x peak improvement seems much better founded. I wonder how they are measuring that they would come up with the 25x figure.

I don't mean to sound contentious. You do very good work, and I trust your results. I look forward to seeing the results that you (and others) get with these rounds.

[cockerpunk]

So a clamped-down shot group of a 5-inch diameter, from 50 feet? If so, that is still pretty imprecise. As you say, most people can't shoot that with a pistol. Now, imagine if they had to shoot with a pistol as imprecise as that.

I have shot 5-inch groups, standing, from the 50, with my issued G17 with extra-heavy trigger and crappy 3-dot night sights. It is by no means a target pistol. Still, though, if you clamp it down, you are going to get a 1-inch group - much more precise than 5 inches. This basically assures that, where I am aiming, the round should go (at 50 feet). So, despite being a very good shot, I still amplify the imprecision of the pistol significantly. If you handed me a gun that was, at best, capable of a 5-inch group, I would probably be shooting 15-inch groups (maybe worse). To make matters worse, I couldn't realistically expect every shot to go where I was aiming, thus exacerbating the problem. When you only have a 5-inch target to hit, that is fairly significant.

Perhaps I am being too critical, but by my frame of reference, 5-inches is still pretty poor, especially considering the controlled environment. None the less, that is better than I had expected. As such, MANN's suspicion of 2-3x peak improvement seems much better founded. I wonder how they are measuring that they would come up with the 25x figure.

I don't mean to sound contentious. You do very good work, and I trust your results. I look forward to seeing the results that you (and others) get with these rounds.

i have missed alot of shots at 50 by more then 2.5 inches, so to me that means my gun is more accurate then me. to me that means the issue is with me, and not my equipment.

really, its agreeing with MANNs post, if we are are already missing by larger margins then our equipment performs at, then what is the point of increasing the repeatability of our equipment?

[malJohann]

What would be really cool is if you could switch your T9 between feeding from the hopper or feeding from the magazine via an external lever combined with your newly converted magazine which is crammed with 8 First Strike rounds.

[MANN]

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/Accuracy%20data/th_TILB84xball.jpg (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/Accuracy%20data/TILB84xball.jpg)

at 80' you can get 6"X9" grouping with 25 shots. testing was done with an Xmag, .684 Titanium Paintball barrel (alum series), and draxxus Xball gold paint.

For the cost I am not sure that the distance advantage is going to be worth it. With the accuracy I am not sure that there is going to be a huge advantage. Espicially after you factor in the fact that you still point and shoot these markers. Putting a scope on a paintball gun, and then rolling around in the woods with it is not going to stay "sighted in".

[Swamp Thing]

You can have a T-9 feed off the clip and off a hopper. All you have to do is rotate the barrel

Swamp

[malJohann]

You can have a T-9 feed off the clip and off a hopper. All you have to do is rotate the barrel

Swamp

How quick can that be done in the field?

[Papa Smoke]

However long it takes you to turn your barrel 1/3 of a turn. T9s have a twist lock barrel.

[Spider-TW]

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/Accuracy%20data/th_TILB84xball.jpg (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/Accuracy%20data/TILB84xball.jpg)

at 80' you can get 6"X9" grouping with 25 shots. testing was done with an Xmag, .684 Titanium Paintball barrel (alum series), and draxxus Xball gold paint.

For the cost I am not sure that the distance advantage is going to be worth it. With the accuracy I am not sure that there is going to be a huge advantage. Espicially after you factor in the fact that you still point and shoot these markers. Putting a scope on a paintball gun, and then rolling around in the woods with it is not going to stay "sighted in".
Your sight distance is less than 100 ft. A daisy point sight can hold that well enough for conventional paint. Anyone willing to crawl all day will probably spend more on their sight anyway.

mostpeople's (drunken :p ) argument neglects spin altogether, which has a significant effect, as observed in baseball, golf, and paintball. Fins make that spin controlled. Mass only affects sectional density of the projectile and the total energy in the round. The density in the Reynolds number is the fluid density. There is no mass of the object involved. The spin creates a 'let down' pattern at the back of the round, eliminating a lot of the turbulence and allowing a more stable flight.

Iirc, the original point of Perfect Circle was a seamless and consistent paint ball, well beyond the product of the time and unfortunately still far ahead of most paint delivered today. At the terminal target range of 80 ft, I can see bringing a spread in from 54 square in to 2 square in. We're talking about SKS accuracy (~4 minutes of angle).

I don't doubt it will fly right, but I'm with Doc Zox; it's not enough to make me buy a tiberius yet and I will be looking for something else to try them out on.

btw, high reynolds numbers are turbulent, low numbers are laminar, the dip inbetween is transitional.

[turbo chicken]

Does this also change the optimal length of barrels? Does it change the sound signature of the marker?

wondering the same thing on barrel length

[doc_Zox]

I am wondering if there is an optimized chamber design that will insure repeatable set ups

IMHO part of the inherent "inaccuracy" of the 68 cal paintball ballistics is the non uniform, lop sided paint and its random, high speed chambering.
Aligning the seams is prolly a waste of effort with gel rounds, but i gather these perfect circle engineered rounds are a Polystyrene shell. Hence the temp & humidity tolerance.
These rounds might benefit from a precision controlled feed.

[Spider-TW]

These were released to where? :confused:

I would buy some right off just to tinker with.

[mostpeople]

btw, high reynolds numbers are turbulent, low numbers are laminar, the dip inbetween is transitional.

Did you read the analysis? High Re is turbulent, but when dealing with a sphere that turbulence is a bonus. At higher Re the Cd is lower, it was proven.


As far as spin goes, the fins will exert a force on the surrounding air, causing resistance, and more drag. Spin will stabilize the ball you are right.

Who is to say though, that every paintball doesn't have some form of spin on it when it comes out of the barrel?

[Lohman446]

Who is to say though, that every paintball doesn't have some form of spin on it when it comes out of the barrel?

TK and the high speed camera testing done to measure for it with publically posted results

[mostpeople]

TK and the high speed camera testing done to measure for it with publically posted results


Did they spin? Do you have enough length of footage to know if they spun?

[Lohman446]

Did they spin? Do you have enough length of footage to know if they spun?

They did not spin, it was pretty good, controlled testing.

[mostpeople]

Manike made a "bullet" shaped (exact same as the FN303 round) "paintball" that weighed the same as a normal paintball. These have groves that spin the round when it is fired. It flew worse than a paintball. They just don't have enough mass for their frontal area.

http://automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=64669&page=11&pp=30

Did anybody bother doing a Cg exam on these paintballs as well? When you talk aerodynamics, the Cl and Cg are very.. VERY important.

[Lohman446]

http://automags.org/resource/tech/tomstech/03_spinning.shtml

That discusses spinning, or attempting to induce controlled spin, a regular paintball

[Spider-TW]

If you've ever been on the far end of a working tippmann flatline barrel, the difference between a good backspin (which reduces turbulence by keeping the boundary layer attached longer and creates lift) and a knuckle ball is pretty apparent. A flatline barrel with Perfect Circle round paint would be an interesting test since its effects would be reduced without any seams, but would be more consistent.

From high speed photographs, you can see that spinning projectiles, even smooth ones, create different axial wakes compared non-rotating projectiles. The wake is usually elongated and affects the overall ballistic coefficient. Gyroscopic forces do not necessarily create absolute stability, as evidenced by the varying rate of twist in the same rifles shooting different weights of bullets. Wake stability has to be balanced against rotational inertia, center of pressure and center of mass (and sectional density).

Since a paint ball travels at varying speeds starting at 280 fps and decelerates, the reynolds numbers will be continuously falling and the drag coefficients will be changing. There is not a single coefficient, but a set of coefficients through the path.

I would much rather have some to play with. :D

[mostpeople]

If you've ever been on the far end of a working tippmann flatline barrel, the difference between a good backspin (which reduces turbulence by keeping the boundary layer attached longer and creates lift) and a knuckle ball is pretty apparent. A flatline barrel with Perfect Circle round paint would be an interesting test since its effects would be reduced without any seams, but would be more consistent.

From high speed photographs, you can see that spinning projectiles, even smooth ones, create different axial wakes compared non-rotating projectiles. The wake is usually elongated and affects the overall ballistic coefficient. Gyroscopic forces do not necessarily create absolute stability, as evidenced by the varying rate of twist in the same rifles shooting different weights of bullets. Wake stability has to be balanced against rotational inertia, center of pressure and center of mass (and sectional density).

Since a paint ball travels at varying speeds starting at 280 fps and decelerates, the reynolds numbers will be continuously falling and the drag coefficients will be changing. There is not a single coefficient, but a set of coefficients through the path.

I would much rather have some to play with. :D


How far do you think the reynolds number will drop though? my guess is not far at all, and it would fall for both projectiles to boot. After 100 feet, how many fps have dropped? Im too lazy to try and find out, is there a test that has been done?

As to the bolded section, you are talking about a spherical section filled with a fluid, that will be pretty difficult, and require pretty tight machine tolerances.

The more I think about it, the more I think these will be less accurate than a regular paintball. They would have to be very well balanced around that central axis to not spin out like a ceiling fan missing 1 blade.

I would really like to see some tests!

[PanzerGen]

First "test" I have seen.

edit...link removed

The only problem is that you can't see the paint itself due to the video quality.

[AGD]

Guys,

First off a clarification, you can barrel load these projectiles by pushing them backwards down the barrel. You put them in with the round part FORWARD and the fins toward the bolt like you would expect. I was informed that I said "load them backwards" which some people took as positioning the projectile round end toward bolt.

These projectiles are a direct result of the 10 years of experience we have with the FN303 rounds. You remember, the only paintball projectile used by the government and all that? We reduced the weight to 3 grams and moved it all to the front for good center of gravity. The back of the ball actually has a slight taper where the fins are so the fins are not actually in the main airstream but rely on the airflow to "stick" to the sides of the ball like an airplane wing.

The fins are more aggressive than the FN rounds and since its lighter we think these spin up FASTER and this gives stability to the ball. This created a level of accuracy that even we were surprised with.

The shape gives it better aerodynamic flow so this round holds its velocity down range a LOT longer than a regular paintball. In my discussion with Gary today he told me that when a regular paintball slows down to 125, the Sniper Round is still doing 235 at the same distance. We believe people with think your shooting hot when you touch them at distance.

We have sent out projectiles to people for testing and there is going to be a video from Tiberius coming out tomorrow. These projectiles were half hand made to make the show so there is no streamlined production yet, but that is happening soon.

Stand by and everyone will get a "shot" at these :)

AGD

[AO Moderation Team]

First "test" I have seen.

edit...link removed

The only problem is that you can't see the paint itself due to the video quality.

Please dont post links to vids with swearing. The link was removed. Nothing like dropping the F bomb. Could someone tell this Mike guy at TechPB that it would be alot more professional if he could make a vid without all the swearing it makes him sound less cool.

[PanzerGen]

Opps, I didn't think about the swearing when I made the link, sorry. :(

Anyways, I think this is a cool idea. If they work well, someone should make an x-mag breach for them so at least one AGD marker can use them effectively

[mostpeople]

Can you please pm me the video?

[PanzerGen]

It was made by TechPB on youtube if anyone wants to look it up.

[mostpeople]

Thanks pgen, the unfortunate thing about it is that they did not shoot regular rounds right before or after, to see if they were "more" accurate.

[jade_monkey07]

I wonder what kind of drop or rise we will see between these and reg paint over the chrono. Say if you muzzle load one during a game for that "sniper" shot.

[Beemer]

I wonder what kind of drop or rise we will see between these and reg paint over the chrono. Say if you muzzle load one during a game for that "sniper" shot.

That would depend on the WEIGHT difference of the two projectiles. If they both weighed the same the velocity would stay the same.

[Ninjeff]

That would depend on the WEIGHT difference of the two projectiles. If they both weighed the same the velocity would stay the same.


And i beleive Tom said they do weigh roughly the same.

Im really stocked to see these. I want to try them.

[jade_monkey07]

That would depend on the WEIGHT difference of the two projectiles. If they both weighed the same the velocity would stay the same.

Not necissarily. If the bore size is slightly diffirent for example there might be some air that passes by, or through the fins, causing it to be slightly lower FPS. or the fit might be better. even if the weight is the same the "push" behind the projectile might not be the same. Put a bb in a small straw and blow it out, it goes pretty far. now put a bb in a larger straw. wont go half as far. This is where i see issues with muzzle loading one in the middle of a game. what if the paint you were using was .686 and the projectile is .691. you use the .691 barrel so that you can fit one of these. then chrono using normal paint. the better fitting round should chrono quite a bit higher. And how are fields going to control this?

[Muzikman]

No different than if you have two different sized balls in your pod or loader. The effect is some, but not all that much.

[Spider-TW]

Stand by and everyone will get a "shot" at these :)

AGD

The only question I have left is; how does the marker bolt work against the back of the round? It was not a question on the fn303 round, but the hollow skirt is causing me some difficulty on my semi-auto sniper marker design. :argh:

I can see the guys with the night scopes getting some of this action.

[Muzikman]

As long as the walls where the fins are are thick enough that the bolt wouldn't get stuck in the back of the round, it shouldn't be a problem firing. I do wonder if it makes it fly any different than a solid back. I figured they would have put a back on it, but left it hollow (basically an FN303 round with an empty payload and paint instead of bismuth).

[Bagheera]

Guys,

The design is way more aerodynamic so it holds velocity much longer. It will break on a long range target where a normal ball will not. Concerning the price, you need to think accuracy vs volume. If your average paintball is 3 cents, and it takes 30 shots to take the guy out, its cheaper to use the sniper round once. Hey, shooting is fun and the more the merrier but it would be fun after 20 years of playing this game to scope a guy and take him out with one shot.

Imagine your radio linked sniper team hidden in place surrounding a fort. The ambush team is waiting for for your call to charge the wall. You wait until the guys in the fort feel comfortable with no visible enemy outside and are exposed in the windows. On radio command, all snipers shoot one round simultaneously and suddenly there is no one defending the fort for a minute while the ambush team rushes in.

Unfortunately all of you have played the one "speedball" game of paintball for so long you can't conceive of other ways to do this and hence any new ideas seem stupid. This is the first truly new product to come out in paintball in a decade. Turn it down and there may never be another as paintball fades into the sunset. Every single major paintball company today is loosing money. Only the players can turn that around.

AGD

Amen Tom.

While I am cautious about any new technology, Tom is right about the state of the game. It's up to us to get away from the "shooting ropes" mentality, which, let's face it, which is really lame, lacks skill, and has been killing the game, especially for newbies and walk-ons. When I started playing paintball back in '92, my 2nd marker (2 months after buying an Indian Creek that I didn't like) was an Automag, and I didn't have to lay out paint with it, because it was, and still is, one of the most accurate and consistent markers out there. Hell, half the guys we played with (even me on occasion) played pump and semis mixed, and the game was all about stalking, marksmanship, strategy, and skill. Now, even woodsball is about "laying ropes." Let's get back to the days of strategy and skill, and if this round brings it back, then I welcome it with open arms. Make my next marker a Tiberius! (This from a proud owner of 4 classic automags, still owning my original Automag from 1992.)

[Rudz]

i just watched the techpb vid, pretty impressive, they used a sniper set up with .689 barrel, that was chronod at 290 before they used the tib rounds, the rounds were flying pretty darn straight and they hit theyre target everytime i believe, vids not the best quality, but you get the piont.

[the123]

Tom-
What RPM do these rounds spin up to? If I remember correctly from a tech class the spin would need to be around 6000rpm for any accuracy improvement.

In a thread from Jan 2002 you're quoted "We spent the time and money years ago. If there was anything to be had for better accuracy it would be worth a million dollars to AGD. We would have gone in that direction." from this post: http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20862

Isn't the FN303 projectile your design?

[Muzikman]

Brian,

You are thinking about a normal paintball vs the finned FN303 style round. If they could get traditional paintballs to be any more accurate by spinning them, then yes, it would have been the multi-Million dollar gadget.

[SSP REAPER]

where can I buy these to try out?

[Swamp Thing]

I got my hands on some today and was able to watch some being fired and fire one myself.

Not a scientific test in any fashion. Marker was not chronoed or properly sited but it flew fast and true for a long distance.

All I can say is that I want to get my hands on enough that I can site in my weapon for 100plus feet and shoot as a pair of gogs at that distance with both regular balls and these and see what happens.

Swamp

[Sumthinwicked]

send me some ill pay u the 8 plus shippin!

[Swamp Thing]

My Sponsor had them from the trade show in Atlanta last week. He only have a few and they are not for sale at all.

Swamp

[Ninjeff]

so its $8 for a tube of 8?

[cockerpunk]

o got my tube in from ray at ninja paintball - thanks again!

have not got a chance to shoot them yet, they are certainly something different ....

[Beemer]

So I hooked up with my old friends at Perfect Circle today. They shot me. :D That would be Mr.Gary Gibson, his lovely wife Mary[she's hot] :wow: that putz John and Mike. Well it wasnt they [that shot me] it was all Mike pulling the trig shooting these things at me.

The marker was a MAG chroned at 290 on my request. They wanted 280 but that was to slow for me.

So I go out to the 100 foot target after Mike TRIES to sight and chrono the Mag[no scope]
Chrono is good at 290 and target looks good. Going for center mass here. Gary eye balls it and tries to center me on target. This is all on the fly......with some vid that the BOSS Mary says aint good enough to post. But it was funny and cool none the less. If the wiz kid John does a good edit she might let me post it. :clap:

The Mag is bolted to a weighted tripod. I have on a standard BDU issue top and a pair of Lee jeens and proto gogs. It mostly was just a matter of getting my torso lined up on target. like I said it was on the fly thing. Mike says ready I say ya go, John has vid running. Whack it hits me just off center and catches some BDU slack just off center mass. Doesnt break. I quickly pick up the round before Gary see's me and stick it in my pocket. :ninja: Need it for further analysis. Dont tell him.

Mike takes another shot on target and Gary repositions me accordingly. Whack, this one hits center mass just above my chest. Breaks paint and marks me good. Felt like a paintball shot at 50 feet. yowzaa.

Now out to 200 feet[measured] at the same 290FPS. Mike sights it in on the fly with me as target.
This was in the back alley behind the shop so like I said it was on the fly.

I thought I would see it comming. No way. I used to play dodgeball at max range with the girl friends kids. To let them see what it was like to get hit by a paintball.

I took the hit on the right inner thigh and it was a winger that a regular ball would not do at that range and it marked me.[broke paint]

Same range same gun same FPS same angle and a paintball was dropping a good 5 feet in front of me. Once Mike made an adjustment on the angle and I got my sight on I could almost literally catch the paintballs comming in. In fact I did catch one off my hand. It hit my palm and did break. I need to practice my ninja skills

So, here is what I have to say. You with a PAINTBALL and me with this round AT 200 feet at 290FPS You lose, no wait I WIN. :D

Some more facts.

These projectiles weigh in at 3 to 3.2 grams. Well under the 3.5G max ASTM standard. It meets or exceeds all ASTM standards at this point as far as I can tell and I am a SAFETY anal Mo Fo and have all the specs on hand.

There is no back to the round like an FN303 do to weight and center of gravity. With a back it would throw off the CG and add to much weight.

It does not spin down the barrel. It starts to spin as soon as it hits the air exciting the barrel.

689 is the barrel bore you want to use.

It does not hold velocty down range because of spin but because of LESS DRAG.

The back end is slightly tapered to the plus side with the fins to induce the spin. It is SPIN stabilized. :ninja:

Under bored barrel will crack the shell down the barrel and an overed bored barrel will slightly affect the accuracy.

On a side note we weighed the Paintballs we used compared to the Tiberius rounds and they were the same. Believe it OR not. 3.1G

Oh ya I was also informed it is not pronounced,

Tib.ur.us., as I was saying 3 syllables :tard: but,

Ty.beer.e.us. 4 syllables. I like BEER. :headbang:

I have more info and more pics to follow in next post.

Read these and weep. Pics from the brochure from Ti ber i us at the Extravaganza.

http://home.comcast.net/~beemerone/FirstStrikeGrouping.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~beemerone/FirstStrikeVelocity1.jpg

[michbich]

Nice detailed review.
:cheers:

[Hilltop Customs]

Nice writeup Beemer!

ahhh beer :D

[custar]

Tib.ur.us., as I was saying 3 syllables :tard: but,

Ty.beer.e.us. 4 syllables. I like BEER. :headbang:


Well, duih. Spelled and pronounced just like Kirk's middle name and the Roman emperor.

Thanks for the fine review. How did you determine the round was not spinning as it travelled down the barrel?

custar

[Beemer]

I didnt its what I was told.

Tiberius put up a Vid.

Tiberius Arms - First Strike (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zOSozQNURI)

[Rudz]

Good job beemer, I'm so proud of you, lol



Now how many other mods would go out of there way to do a review like this for us?


Thanks

[Sundown]

yeah good post Beemer :)

longest post I saw from you in a long time :)

[Swamp Thing]

WOW WOW WOW.

Hit and break at 300feet

yes it was on goggles but you could never dream of that shot with a standard rig. Put me in line for the upgrade MR Tiberius.

Swamp

[Ninjeff]

thanks beemer!

Nice write up. I have to say, im pretty excited to see these in action.....i just wish they werent so damned expensive.


EDIT!

Wow!!! you can actually HEAR the rounds in the outdoor 300ft video! I worry about the pain up close though.....that would hurt

[teufelhunden]

Being hit with one of these should not hurt any more than being hit with another (regular) paintball. They are of similar mass and travel at the same barrel velocity; as such, it will not hurt anymore to get hit with one of these at 5' than a regular paintball. At 100', it may hurt more because this round maintains a superior velocity to that of a regular paintball at that distance due to its improved aerodynamics.

I'm not a physics guy, but I would assume that F=ma (excuse my capitalization, if incorrect) applies here as well. My HS physics knowledge (from a few years ago) says that the force of an object is its mass times acceleration. So, for a paintball (regular or Tiberius) the force would be 300 fps * 3ish grams. That will end up equaling some number of Newtons, which is your force. (I think -- I understand that what I just gave is really the force it takes to accelerate the paintball to 300 fps, but it seems reasonable that it is similar force to decelerate the same object from the same speed as it takes to accelerate it to that speed -- I would presume a bit less due to the breakage of the shell and the obvious deceleration that has occurred after the ball has left the barrel, but, yeah.)

Since the Tiberius round does not travel any faster than the regular paintball, just holds its velocity better, you're not at risk to cause someone any more pain or damage than you would otherwise. As I think I said (it's late..), it'll hurt more further downrange than others. This of course assumes that the fins aren't made of some sort of plastic that will splinter into tiny little razors on impact, but I would doubt it. The fins also are apparently of de minimis mass, so that should not cause anything additional -- maybe slight if they're of a plastic harder than a paintball shell.

wow, </ramble>

[Beemer]

Wow!!! you can actually HEAR the rounds in the outdoor 300ft video! I worry about the pain up close though.....that would hurt

It will hurt no more then a BALL. They do make a COOL sound flying by. Kinda of like a swoosh whistle thing. Funny you mention that sound thing. The only difference is this round holds velocity down range. See the graph.

When we were done screwing around with me as a live target, Gary and I went down range under cover to check the sound thing. I think it was because John said something about the sound and Gary said he missed it, so did I being the target. That was at two hundred feet.[still about 175FPS] We got behind cover[dumpster] While Mike put some rounds down range. After the safe call Gary and I came out of cover with the big :D ya that sounded cool.

Its still Paintball only the range has changed. :ninja:

[DevilMan]

If you're worried about the PAIN.tball, you're in the wrong sport...

More than likely I'll pick some of these up and "muzzle load" em once in awhile...

DM

[ajnin]

Better yet DM I will pick some up just to shoot you with from really far away.

[Ninjeff]

I suppose what worries me is the tail end part adding a more "forced" point of impact. If you watch teh video you can hear the plastic peices hitting the floor....well, something is hitting the floor, i assume its the tail part of the round. I understand the point of it being the same weight at the same velocity, but much like how a bouce hurts more than a break, i worry that the plastic tail part will add a bit of zing to the hit.

Am i worried about it? No, not really. ive been playing a long time, and i ref, so if the sting of a paintball was something i worried about i think i'd find a new hobby. That being said, people and players will complain about anything so.....


No one answered the cost thing either...or, if they did i missed it. Is it $8 for an 8 round tube? That seems to be what i read, but it seems a bit steep. I was hoping more like $3 or 4/tube.

Still, i'll pick up a few to try. I suppose the higher cost just means people will actually try to be accurate with these and not use them willy nilly.

The sound was awesome though.

[DevilMan]

Better yet DM I will pick some up just to shoot you with from really far away.

BRING IT ON MAN!!!!!

Bring the pistolas for the Friday night pistol match and I'll pay for the paint... Hell we should do "team" match and you and I can take on 2 other "victims"

:D

I'm down for it!!! It's actually got me thinking about picking up some Tiberius goods, but meh.... wouldn't use em enough me thinks.

Not to mention you aren't one to stand back and "plink" at people if I recall.

DM

[cockerpunk]

i dropped my tube of 8 on the the same rig we used for paint brittleness testing - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRUZhWgk4MY

basically 8 foot drop onto oak, and i got 1 bounce. the sample size is really not large enough to do a great comparison with the other paintball we dropped, but it does show that is does break to an effective level.

bryce used his 8 in a 75 foot accuracy test - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fecvr_HWdBM

we are planning a dual chrono test, a high speed video test, and a true accuracy test at range (125 feet?)

[MANN]

wow. good test. I expected more accuracy than was shown. It would be nice to get your hands on a few hundred.

It looks like the advantage will come with distance. where normal paintballs drop off after ~ 100 ft these will continue. As for accuracy tho it seems about the same (up to ~80 ft)

[cockerpunk]

wow. good test. I expected more accuracy than was shown. It would be nice to get your hands on a few hundred.

It looks like the advantage will come with distance. where normal paintballs drop off after ~ 100 ft these will continue. As for accuracy tho it seems about the same (up to ~80 ft)

yeah we need more. they might be coming on to techpb as a sponsor so hopefully we will get a bunch of them to test. i really want to do a finnish the brittleness test, and the high speed will be awesome looking.

[Sundown]

yeah nice tests, I will be looking forward to seeing more tests.
And also looking forward to seeing how we can use these in a normal marker without taking out the barrel each time ;)

[cockerpunk]

yeah nice tests, I will be looking forward to seeing more tests.
And also looking forward to seeing how we can use these in a normal marker without taking out the barrel each time ;)

ramrod?

[michbich]

muzzle loaders ftw! lol

[DevilMan]

ramrod?

Yeah just wonder how many people will ram it hard enough to break it...

:D

I've got some ideas in mind, but nothing that will take place anytime soon.

DM

[MANN]

so now we need to find a system to load these.

1 make a plug for the breech.
2 make a screw in breech (will screw in where the barrel goes), and have a spot for the barrel to screw into
3 make some sort of clip to feed through it.

[Engus]

so now we need to find a system to load these.

1 make a plug for the breech.
2 make a screw in breech (will screw in where the barrel goes), and have a spot for the barrel to screw into
3 make some sort of clip to feed through it.


somebody should see if they work in a smg68.

[Smoothice]

All they need to do is package them differently.

Instead of like this

{ { { { { { { {

They need to be like this

}
}
}
}
}
}
}
}


Then you just stick the tube into your vert feed marker with the rounds facing the right direction.

Gravity will take care of the rest.

[drewkroeker]

I'm thinking I need to get a ULE warp left body and have someone mill it to accept these rounds and then put a stick feed on it. As far as a rapid-feed system goes, the drum type magazine on the FN 303 seems like a good bet, although this would require considerable modification to any gun it was used on. Since mags are so modular, they would be one of the easiest guns to work with, I should think.

[teufelhunden]

ramrod?


I DON'T WANT A LARGE FARVA, I WANT A *GOSH DARN* LITER OF COLA

[Sundown]

All they need to do is package them differently.

Instead of like this

{ { { { { { { {

They need to be like this

}
}
}
}
}
}
}
}


Then you just stick the tube into your vert feed marker with the rounds facing the right direction.

Gravity will take care of the rest.


hmm.. this might actually work.. depends how well they would ''move'' into the breech or in the tube.

you might need to hit the tube to make the paintball move :)

[Smoothice]

I DON'T WANT A LARGE FARVA, I WANT A *GOSH DARN* LITER OF COLA

Edit Pic removed.

[Smoothice]

hmm.. this might actually work.. depends how well they would ''move'' into the breech or in the tube.

you might need to hit the tube to make the paintball move :)

How could it work? Its TOO simple. :p

Everyone wants to make some magical mystery loader for these. The easier the better if you ask me.

Yes it may require a redesign of their current packaging so the tube would fit them in a new direction. But that would be the easiest fix.

[manike]

That would work for packaging, but you'd still need to have guns with a different feedtube and breech to get them to load. That's one of the tough issues to making this a success. The availability of guns that can shoot them easily.

I have a few tubes of rounds, and so far they are very impressive. I'm in process of modifying my FN303 to shoot them at under 300fps. :)

[custar]

I noticed Tiberius said they were producing a rifled barrel as part of their conversion kit. I wonder how much of a difference that makes.

custar

[MANN]

I'm in process of modifying my FN303 to shoot them at under 300fps. :)

could we see another go at paintball for AGD? maybe a FN303/mini child of marker? :eek:

[Looper]

could we see another go at paintball for AGD? maybe a FN303/mini child of marker? :eek:
Ok, the thought of that just got me excited.... I need to go get clean up now.

[cpt.maverick]

Hey Cockerpunk - I just recently saw some of PunkWorks stuff for the first time and I have to say I applaud you guys for doing this kind of thoughtful and useful service for paintball!

On to FS Rounds: One of the big questions I have is: What will the new bolt for tiberius arms guns be like? One thing I'm concerned about with these rounds (and trying to devise a scheme to get them into other guns) is whether or not a 'regular' bolt will hurt the skirting on these new rounds when they are pushed forward. I don't know for sure but I would imagine that TA will have some kind of tapered bolt that will push on the inside of the skirt rather than the outside but I would be interested in any info anyone has.

[cockerpunk]

Hey Cockerpunk - I just recently saw some of PunkWorks stuff for the first time and I have to say I applaud you guys for doing this kind of thoughtful and useful service for paintball!

thanks! we do our best.

[Beemer]

Holy cow this forum rocks. Nice test vids and good info thanks. But backup the truck to two hundred feet and test against a BALL. The advantage aint up close with these BUT down range. At one hundred feet I will still take this round tho. At two hundred feet its all I want. :ninja:

Your barrel bore is to tight. Start at a .689 for testing. Any LESS is to tight. Whats up with the velocity. Dont we have guns that can do 290FPS plus or minus one or two FPS?? :(

On the break test I saw a half a dozen balls droped at about six feet on concrete and everyone broke.

Did you guys Mic these things out??

These should work great in an SMG68.

Heres the thing. Sight this round in on your rig at 290FPS at 200 feet, Then drop in a ball at the same weight and close bore. You wont even hit the target.

Or think of it like this. The Tiberius round 3.1G at 290FPS at 200 feet.
A 3.1G nylon ROUND ball with perfect bore barrel at the same FPS at 200FPS it wont even HIT the target. Why?, cause it dont hold VELOCITY down range.

Just my two cents worth. You guys ROCK and keep the info comming its what we want. :cheers:

[teufelhunden]

I think I've played once since summer of 2004, and this has me considering seeing what I have in the attic to ball with... or seeing what one of these guns runs.

[Smoothice]

That would work for packaging, but you'd still need to have guns with a different feedtube and breech to get them to load. )

So if measuring these rounds tip to tail they would not fit into a standard feedneck?

hmm. I guess x/sfl's, micromags, galactic z's, and anything else with a removeable breech will be great candidates for having new breeches made that will work.

I guess I could just keep the breech off my xmag and hand load these in faster then you can remove a barrel :p

[cockerpunk]

Holy cow this forum rocks. Nice test vids and good info thanks. But backup the truck to two hundred feet and test against a BALL. The advantage aint up close with these BUT down range. At one hundred feet I will still take this round tho. At two hundred feet its all I want. :ninja:

Your barrel bore is to tight. Start at a .689 for testing. Any LESS is to tight. Whats up with the velocity. Dont we have guns that can do 290FPS plus or minus one or two FPS?? :(

On the break test I saw a half a dozen balls droped at about six feet on concrete and everyone broke.

Did you guys Mic these things out??

These should work great in an SMG68.

Heres the thing. Sight this round in on your rig at 290FPS at 200 feet, Then drop in a ball at the same weight and close bore. You wont even hit the target.

Or think of it like this. The Tiberius round 3.1G at 290FPS at 200 feet.
A 3.1G nylon ROUND ball with perfect bore barrel at the same FPS at 200FPS it wont even HIT the target. Why?, cause it dont hold VELOCITY down range.

Just my two cents worth. You guys ROCK and keep the info comming its what we want. :cheers:

1. they claim a 25x accuracy boost, so bryce tested for that
2. we did our own break test with the same rig so we could compare to the other types of paint we have tested before, again, i wish the sample size was larger
3. they are .684, i measured one in my video which makes me wonder if you actually watched them
4. we have shown again and again that underboring is the ideal, thus bryce used as small of a barrel as was possible.

[MANN]

4. we have shown again and again that underboring is the ideal, thus bryce used as small of a barrel as was possible.

QFT

[DevilMan]

So if measuring these rounds tip to tail they would not fit into a standard feedneck?

hmm. I guess x/sfl's, micromags, galactic z's, and anything else with a removeable breech will be great candidates for having new breeches made that will work.

I guess I could just keep the breech off my xmag and hand load these in faster then you can remove a barrel :p


ummmm.... except the Z body don't have removable breech... and to get the XMag breech off you gotta pull the barrel...

:D

I already thought of that one.... Now I'm just leaning towards running a twist lock body... :D

That should make it quick...

DM

[DevilMan]

1. they claim a 25x accuracy boost, so bryce tested for that
2. we did our own break test with the same rig so we could compare to the other types of paint we have tested before, again, i wish the sample size was larger
3. they are .684, i measured one in my video which makes me wonder if you actually watched them
4. we have shown again and again that underboring is the ideal, thus bryce used as small of a barrel as was possible.


For a standard ball perhaps... keep in mind these are made differently from different shell material. I'd love to shoot em out of a 693 or 695 barrel personally....

Just to see where they go.

DM

[Beemer]

3. they are .684, i measured one in my video which makes me wonder if you actually watched them

Hmm it would seem I missed one here. I will Look again. Mind posting the link again. Was it in this thread??? Sorry my bad I missed it. And ya I do watch them. Dont swear in your vids.
I saw that one and let it slide. Post number 141 of yours in this Thread with vid links. like i said guess i did miss it. Its all good, keep up the work. Info is what we want. :cheers:

[cockerpunk]

Hmm it would seem I missed one here. I will Look again. Mind posting the link again. Was it in this thread??? Sorry my bad I missed it. And ya I do watch them. Dont swear in your vids.
I saw that one and let it slide. Post number 141 of yours in this Thread with vid links. like i said guess i did miss it. Its all good, keep up the work. Info is what we want. :cheers:

oh maybe i didn't post that one. its on my personal youtube channel www.youtube.com/gerglmuff

[Beemer]

oh maybe i didn't post that one. its on my personal youtube channel www.youtube.com/gerglmuff

Oh ok so not my bad your bad. :D I did not see that vid you did not post it here.
Well done.......

You are off on the mic. You have to measure at the fins for a bore fit. it is slightly tapered to the plus at the fins. I mic'ed this round every wich way. I wonder did you read my other posts in this thread??[just messing with ya] At the fins I get about .688, .689. :argh:

The fins are about .004.

You also mentioned the buzz word Paradigm twice in that vid. :clap: Thats what it is, a shift in the Paradigm.[paradigm shift] You have to get out of the box. The rest of the industry can stay in the box with the sphere but there will be a percentage that will step outside and have the advantage with this round and they will mod it to make it work. :cheers:

[cockerpunk]

Oh ok so not my bad your bad. :D I did not see that vid you did not post it here.
Well done.......

You are off on the mic. You have to measure at the fins for a bore fit. it is slightly tapered to the plus at the fins. I mic'ed this round every wich way. I wonder did you read my other posts in this thread??[just messing with ya] At the fins I get about .688, .689. :argh:

The fins are about .004.

You also mentioned the buzz word Paradigm twice in that vid. :clap: Thats what it is, a shift in the Paradigm.[paradigm shift] You have to get out of the box. The rest of the industry can stay in the box with the sphere but there will be a percentage that will step outside and have the advantage with this round and they will mod it to make it work. :cheers:

the largest diameter is not the fins.

it is a paradigm, but i frankly dont see that shift in the near future. if tib can sustain the production of these things long enough, maybe. but to do that you need to make a profit, and to do that you need to have a high cost, which prevents what your are trying to get - wide spread acceptance.

we'll see. but i wont be selling my sphereical paintball guns and getting tib guns any time soon.

[MoeMag]

About time I jump in.

Forgive me if I missed it in the past 9 pages already...

Rifled barrel anyone!?

Those fins have to be expanding, contacting the barrel making a seal. No escaping gas past a ball seam or nothing.

Well if its sealing... make it act like a driving band on a round and engage some rifling!!!

I am really excited about all this. How cool would a bolt action “sniper” gun be!? Here I come 20 inch rifled barrel!

[Beemer]

the largest diameter is not the fins.

Well I think you are wrong on that. I could be wrong to[wont be the first or last] but if I am I will admit it. Hmmm side bet for a Beer???

Ha ha ya I wont be selling my XMag anytime soon either. You just arent thinking outside the box but thats ok some of us are. :cheers:

[cockerpunk]

Well I think you are wrong on that. I could be wrong to[wont be the first or last] but if I am I will admit it. Hmmm side bet for a Beer???

Ha ha ya I wont be selling my XMag anytime soon either. You just arent thinking outside the box but thats ok some of us are. :cheers:

no, im just not optimistic about there chances. paintball is a fickle business.

if you have a nice local micro brew thats good - ill take one! sry about the focus ...

fins -

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/gerglmuff/DSC01327.jpg

widest part at the junction with the fins -

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/gerglmuff/DSC01328.jpg

[Beemer]

About time I jump in.

Forgive me if I missed it in the past 9 pages already...

Rifled barrel anyone!?

Those fins have to be expanding, contacting the barrel making a seal. No escaping gas past a ball seam or nothing.

Well if its sealing... make it act like a driving band on a round and engage some rifling!!!

I am really excited about all this. How cool would a bolt action “sniper” gun be!? Here I come 20 inch rifled barrel!

Say yo baby baby yo.

The back half of the round does flex. The whole round itself is like a potato chip. to much flex or stress and BAM it cracks or breaks.

A special rifled barrel would spin it up down the barrel. I think that would only help the already outstanding accuracy and not the already 200 foot range. Purty soon I will have to sign a NDF. :ninja:

[hitech]

I too am worried about this actually making it. It is such a big change and way to many people in paintball will not accept a big change no matter what. This is going to be a big threat to all the other paintball manufactures. I won't be surprised if they launch a hype campaign against these. And we all know how easy it is to get the average paintballer to buy into hype that supports their way of playing. :wow:

That said, when I can afford it, I'm planning on making the change. If the accuracy holds up I could easily play with just these. It's what I imagined paintball was before I played my first game. It only twenty some odd years for it to come true! :headbang:

:cheers:

[Beemer]

no, im just not optimistic about there chances. paintball is a fickle business.

if you have a nice local micro brew thats good - ill take one! sry about the focus ...

No my mic still comes up different then yours. I will talk direct with PCP tomorrow before I conceed. I could post pics of my reading but am to slow right now. Good job on yours. :cheers:

edit......move the mic right out to the tail end and read.

[cockerpunk]

No my mic still comes up different then yours. I will talk direct with PCP tomorrow before I conceed. I could post pics of my reading but am to slow right now. Good job on yours. :cheers:

i have a mic too, want pics of that?

i get the same numbers with it too.

[Beemer]

i have a mic too, want pics of that?

i get the same numbers with it too.

see my edit in my post........move the mic right out to the tail........... :cheers:

[Beemer]

I too am worried about this actually making it. It is such a big change and way to many people in paintball will not accept a big change no matter what. This is going to be a big threat to all the other paintball manufactures. I won't be surprised if they launch a hype campaign against these. And we all know how easy it is to get the average paintballer to buy into hype that supports their way of playing. :wow:

That said, when I can afford it, I'm planning on making the change. If the accuracy holds up I could easily play with just these. It's what I imagined paintball was before I played my first game. It only twenty some odd years for it to come true! :headbang:

:cheers:

Ya I hear all that..........Its like I said three or four years back in a thread. let the kiddies go play ball......and guys like you and me can suit up and play with the 303 :bounce: :cheers:

[cockerpunk]

see my edit in my post........move the mic right out to the tail........... :cheers:

im not getting above .680 at any point on the tail.

if you pinch it slightly you can get the skirt to lose its roundness and get a larger number.

[Beemer]

im not getting above .680 at any point on the tail.

if you pinch it slightly you can get the skirt to lose its roundness and get a larger number.

Ya the tail has flex and is probably is what is thorwing off the reading. With no pinch and rotating the round I get different numbers on the skirt or fins. either way I might not remember exactly what I was told and need to verify. No matter right or wrong I wil buy you the :cheers:

[brycelarson]

On the rounds I shot in my test the skirt was visibly not round. They were varying levels of snug in the barrel - which I took to be because of the imperfections in the skirt.

Overall I was impressed. My test is pretty cursory - until I can put 20-30 rounds downrange it's not as good a comparison as it could be. However, 6/8 rounds fired on a mask sized target from 75' is very good. It would certainly make sighting devices useful.

[hitech]

Hey Beemer, I think you could be in trouble. Better get the cold one ready.

:cheers:


The back of the ball actually has a slight taper where the fins are so the fins are not actually in the main airstream but rely on the airflow to "stick" to the sides of the ball like an airplane wing.

[nippinout]

:ninja:

I can see my setup like this:
-Primary gun to shoot traditional sphere paintballs.
-Backup gun shoots FS paint for the long shots.

What sort of drop are we to expect from Point of Aim / Point of Impact at various distances?

[Beemer]

Hey Beemer, I think you could be in trouble. Better get the cold one ready.

:cheers:


Ya I double checked and my measure was off because of the round thing. I am wrong.

:cheers: for everyone

[afortuna]

Will these have any problems in a Mag with a lvl X bolt? I'm just curious if they will cause the bolt to not fire. I'm guessing it isn't a problem, but thought I'd ask.

[brycelarson]

I hand loaded them flush with the back of the bolt. I don't know how impact resistant the funs are - but they seem pretty tough. I would think that most bolts are going to interact with them without problem.

[custar]

On the rounds I shot in my test the skirt was visibly not round. They were varying levels of snug in the barrel - which I took to be because of the imperfections in the skirt.


That is not surprising nor should it cause much of a problem within the barrel. I suspect when the air catches in the rear cavity, it will cause that to expand to the inner diameter of the barrel at least initially. Once past the first row of porting where the pressure dies almost completely, the skirt will reform mostly to its pre-shot shape.

custar

[Smoothice]

ummmm.... except the Z body don't have removable breech... and to get the XMag breech off you gotta pull the barrel...

:D

I already thought of that one.... Now I'm just leaning towards running a twist lock body... :D

That should make it quick...

DM

Come on DM. How many Z's you have? Z's have 2 screws on the bottom to remove the feed. Thus you could mill a new feed piece to accept an odd shaped tube.

Look closely at this pic and you will see the two screws that hold the breech/feed in place

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x57/smoothice15/sale/bodies/IMAG0020.jpg

And as far as the xmag breech goes... The marker still works with it out. Right? So just leave the breech off and hand load the round through the open breech into the barrel. May have to turn up the velocity to get them to shoot at speed.

I'm just thinking out of the box I guess :cool:


Oh and I'm sure XMT would be happy to make some new x/sfl breeches to fit an odd shaped tube. If anyone really planned on using the rounds.

[mostpeople]

X-mag probably wouldn't work

The barrel screws in to hold the breech in place, it screws in a certain distance, which would probably cut into the area the ball would be loaded into.

Maybe, but doubtful.

As far as hand loading them without a breech, that might work. Someone will have to check it out!

[hitech]

I had an idea that might help people transition to the First Strike rounds. First modify the T9 to allow BOTH the hopper adapter AND the clip to be installed at the same time. Then add a selector switch that selected either the hopper or the clip. This would allow players to use normal paintballs and switch to a First Strike round during play. They could gradually learn the benefits of the First Strike rounds without having to rely on them. :shooting:

[manike]

I had an idea that might help people transition to the First Strike rounds. First modify the T9 to allow BOTH the hopper adapter AND the clip to be installed at the same time. Then add a selector switch that selected either the hopper or the clip. This would allow players to use normal paintballs and switch to a First Strike round during play. They could gradually learn the benefits of the First Strike rounds without having to rely on them. :shooting:

They already have that on one of their new guns. :) It's very cool. The barrel actually rotates around to work with either the hopper or the magazine.

[Smoothice]

They already have that on one of their new guns. :) It's very cool. The barrel actually rotates around to work with either the hopper or the magazine.

What are the measurements of these rounds from tip to tail?

[DevilMan]

What are the measurements of these rounds from tip to tail?
That's the issue Smooth... The length of the round.... It's longer than a normal ball in the way it's made. You could make a stick feed that would go onto the Z like that, but it'd be the same as a micromag feed. The hole in the body would have to be drilled out lengthwise to allow the round to feed into it.

I've got something in my head that would work with only a minor build/make and it would consist of loading the FS round into a "clip strip" think of the old cap guns that had the caps in a little plastic holder... the one side of the breech would be open to allow the FS round to enter the other side would only have a "slot" cut in it to allow the plastic to exit the breech. Right now it'd be hand fed across, but with just a touch of work it could be easily made to a stripless feed, by using a flat box shaped tray to allow the rounds to roll into place.

Thing is this round isn't going to be for the quick shooters as the cost is up there per round.... But for the folks that sit back and enjoy the messing with the other folks one shot at a time...

DM

EDIT: Something like this.... http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u60/DevilMan75/PBallin/FSStripClip.jpg

If you had a breech on the marker that had an opening on one side that allowed the FS round to go into it sideways, and the other side had just a slot cut into it that was about 3MM in width or the width of the plastic strip clip, you'd simply push the clip from one side to the other. If you made the clip and the breech right you could work in an index into them to where it would almost "latch" into place. The empty side of the clip would be flexible while the side that still had ammo would not be so the empty side could be made to want to push up into a latch type part of the slot so as to keep the rounds in place and not fall out the breech. Now you take this same setup and run a "box" over to the side and down and put a spring system in it that would push the rounds up and over and you could be good to go, but alas that's something else that would take forever to reload.

[manike]

What are the measurements of these rounds from tip to tail?

0.686"

But you have to remember that in side profile the back is square which means they can't drop into the breech of a normal gun in the orientation required for them to be fired.

It's kind of like a square plug won't go into a round hole. :)

As for the other dimensional discussions, they appear to be almost identical to my FN303 rounds for the base dimensions, but the tails on several of the FS rounds are oval (I suspect not on purpose but due to the manufacturing with such a thin wall) and this means that the dimensions can be larger or smaller than the equator depending on how you measure them.

Mine are all around 0.686 at the equator too.

Unfortunately this means they don't fit into my glass barrel which is 0.68 :(

[MoeMag]

That's the issue Smooth... The length of the round.... It's longer than a normal ball in the way it's made. You could make a stick feed that would go onto the Z like that, but it'd be the same as a micromag feed. The hole in the body would have to be drilled out lengthwise to allow the round to feed into it.

I've got something in my head that would work with only a minor build/make and it would consist of loading the FS round into a "clip strip" think of the old cap guns that had the caps in a little plastic holder... the one side of the breech would be open to allow the FS round to enter the other side would only have a "slot" cut in it to allow the plastic to exit the breech. Right now it'd be hand fed across, but with just a touch of work it could be easily made to a stripless feed, by using a flat box shaped tray to allow the rounds to roll into place.

Thing is this round isn't going to be for the quick shooters as the cost is up there per round.... But for the folks that sit back and enjoy the messing with the other folks one shot at a time...

DM

EDIT: Something like this.... http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u60/DevilMan75/PBallin/FSStripClip.jpg

If you had a breech on the marker that had an opening on one side that allowed the FS round to go into it sideways, and the other side had just a slot cut into it that was about 3MM in width or the width of the plastic strip clip, you'd simply push the clip from one side to the other. If you made the clip and the breech right you could work in an index into them to where it would almost "latch" into place. The empty side of the clip would be flexible while the side that still had ammo would not be so the empty side could be made to want to push up into a latch type part of the slot so as to keep the rounds in place and not fall out the breech. Now you take this same setup and run a "box" over to the side and down and put a spring system in it that would push the rounds up and over and you could be good to go, but alas that's something else that would take forever to reload.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/gooddaymate77/100_0325.jpg
Tippmann SMG 60/68

[Beemer]

0.686"

Mine are all around 0.686 at the equator too.

Unfortunately this means they don't fit into my glass barrel which is 0.68 :(

Now I dont feel so bad. This vid said .684 equator and .679 length.

http://www.youtube.com/gerglmuff Cockerpunk's Thoughts on the new Tiberious Rounds .

[BigEvil]

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/gooddaymate77/100_0325.jpg
Tippmann SMG 60/68

:headbang:

[DevilMan]

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/gooddaymate77/100_0325.jpg
Tippmann SMG 60/68

Yeah MoeMag... I've never seen one of those in the flesh and had no idea that's how they worked.... So yeah... basically what it would need...

So how many tippy fans are there that still have one of these in the closet???

DM

[cockerpunk]

Now I dont feel so bad. This vid said .684 equator and .679 length.

http://www.youtube.com/gerglmuff Cockerpunk's Thoughts on the new Tiberious Rounds .

yeah i got them to come out abit shorter then you simon. i was happy to see that because i dont want to have to make a custom bolt stroke length sniper to shoot them. the bolt stroke will remain the same, just the loading port and the loading mechanism need to be changed.

[ultralight]

HA! Now we can't laugh at the kids who have a "sidearm" in a holster in addition to their main marker. The sidearm may become the new sniper's weapon, like Halo.

[BigEvil]

Not sure if anyone mentioned this, but are these things biodegradable?

[BigEvil]

oh maybe i didn't post that one. its on my personal youtube channel www.youtube.com/gerglmuff

WTF is that shirt you are wearing? :eek:

[Dawg047]

Over the years, we have grown to just one style of marker. A marker that shoots reasonably fast at good range. Now, we have the possibility of a new style marker entering the scene. I like it, I like having options. I will have have a Micromag in my hand, Sydarm on my leg and "Sniper" on my back. Na, just kidding, I can pretty much hit anything with my Micromag :D I like the rounds though. I second the breach for the new Micro 2009!

[Swamp Thing]

To above guy about T-9 with selector switch

The T-9 currently does what you are saying.

It has the ability to feed off the clip and then if you rotate the barrel 1/3 of a turn you can be feeding from a hopper/qloader/or longbow mag.

The barrel is twist lock so it takes a few seconds to change back and forth.

Swamp

[hitech]

To above guy about T-9 with selector switch


I guess it really has been a long time since I've been here, no one knows me anymore... :cry:

Thanks for the answers; great minds and all that. :cool:

[AGD]

I guess it really has been a long time since I've been here, no one knows me anymore... :cry:

Thats what happens when you have been around FOREVER! :)

AGD

[Spider-TW]

yeah i got them to come out abit shorter then you simon. i was happy to see that because i dont want to have to make a custom bolt stroke length sniper to shoot them. the bolt stroke will remain the same, just the loading port and the loading mechanism need to be changed.
I was wondering if the shape of the tip of the bolt is important as well. Is there any problem with the edge of the skirt getting caught between the bolt and the breech, for instance.

[BigEvil]

I guess it really has been a long time since I've been here, no one knows me anymore... :cry:
:cool:

I remember you ;) You had a cool sig. Man i miss those. Made remembering people easy.

[Swamp Thing]

It is my understanding that the upgrade Kit from tiberius will include a barrel, A Bolt, and a magazine.

I don't know if bolt is critical as I am many others have fired them from stock markers with typical bolts without issue.

Swamp

[jade_monkey07]

most people are also loading them straight into the barrel. completely avoiding the stroke of the bolt.

[manike]

I guess it really has been a long time since I've been here, no one knows me anymore... :cry:

I know you! :D :cheers:


In other news... I just shot a full drum of them out of my FN303. Seriously fun. At a paced 50 yards they were definitely accurate enough that my next step is to put one of my red dot sights onto the FN.

Only trouble is getting the damn velocity down so I can do a fair comparison against paint.

Tom, is your cell still the same? I'm gonna give you a call to shoot the breeze and discuss some options if you don't mind.

I thought the valve tip unscrewed from the FN303 valve, but I almost damaged mine trying to get it off. Currently It's shooting way hot! :cry:

[luke]

I guess it really has been a long time since I've been here, no one knows me anymore... :cry:

Thanks for the answers; great minds and all that. :cool:

LOL, I remember you if that counts for anything. :)

(come here and give me a hug) :D

[Bagheera]

Hah, I remember seeing Tom on the Automag vid when I bought my first mag in '92 (right before the powerfeed came out) and the other guy in the vid was rocking the mullet!

[hitech]

Thanks guys, it's nice to know I've not been forgotten. :D (And yes, you certainly count!)

Manike, I'm sure Tom will know WAY more than me, but couldn't you change the main spring in the regulator to a softer one an lower the pressure?

And, just so everyone else remembers, I think a little signature is in order. :cool:



_____________________________________________

<img src="http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q45/delabril/hitech.gif">

Hey Hitech your starting to sound like me! - AGD <img src="http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q45/delabril/smiley_mini102.gif">
Hitech is the man.... :eek: - Blennidae
The only Hitech paintball round (http://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp220/plourde_15/img_5941.jpg)

[DevilMan]

Thanks guys, it's nice to know I've not been forgotten. :D

Manike, I'm sure Tom will know WAY more than me, but couldn't you change the main spring in the regulator to a softer one an lower the pressure?

And, just so everyone else remembers, I think a little signature is in order. :cool:



_____________________________________________

<img src="http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q45/delabril/hitech.gif">

Hey Hitech your starting to sound like me! - AGD <img src="http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q45/delabril/smiley_mini102.gif">
Hitech is the man.... :eek: - Blennidae
The only Hitech paintball round (http://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp220/plourde_15/img_5941.jpg)


Haven't seen you at any of the games though man.... You been doing alright? Check out the May game in O'ville if you can make it it'd be great to see ya!!!

Oh and welcome back...

DM

[hitech]

Yup, things are fine, thanks. Life just gets busy; the last game at Travis was the last time I have played paintball. It was a great two days of paintball! :D

I'm planning on making the May game. Hope to see you there.

:cheers:

[nippinout]

I thought the valve tip unscrewed from the FN303 valve, but I almost damaged mine trying to get it off. Currently It's shooting way hot! :cry:

Is their a regulator spring that you can shim?

You could also drill some neat-o barrel porting onto your FN303. I'm pretty sure that would work :D

[AGD]

The air chamber in the 303 is WAY bigger than a standard mag by almost double. You have to fill it up with something to get the velocity down.

Simon, cell phone still the same.

AGD

[billmi]

These projectiles weigh in at 3 to 3.2 grams. Well under the 3.5G max ASTM standard. It meets or exceeds all ASTM standards at this point as far as I can tell and I am a SAFETY anal Mo Fo and have all the specs on hand.


In ASTM F1979, item 2.1.2 defines a paintball as:


paintball—spherical ball, commonly with a diameter
of 17.3 mm (0.68 in.), comprised of a shell and a fill, and
designed to be expelled from a paintball gun.


I don't think a projectile that is a hemisphere attached to a hollow finned cylinder meets the definition of being spherical.

I doubt that will be an issue, as the ASTM standards are voluntary, and as long as the performance portions of the standard are met (PH, how the fill affects polycarbonate, breaking consistency, etc.) there's a sound argument that the safety is all there.

[codejunkie]

Maybe a little late, but last night I was at a paintball clinic with the LA hitmen, and they had a few of the sniper rounds out with them

we tested them at about 50 feet with a rental (PMI Tracer I think) at around 240 fps (with a normal ball) anyway the ball missed the target's head by an inch give or take and ended up leaving a decent dent in the wall, I think it was drywall or something like it. I suppose at the cost people probably wont use them at close range (what's the point) but if they did it seems like it could actually be quite dangerous.

Just my .02 (worth about $.0000000000000000000000000001 AGD but oh well)

Code

[Beemer]

In ASTM F1979, item 2.1.2 defines a paintball as:


I don't think a projectile that is a hemisphere attached to a hollow finned cylinder meets the definition of being spherical.

I doubt that will be an issue, as the ASTM standards are voluntary, and as long as the performance portions of the standard are met (PH, how the fill affects polycarbonate, breaking consistency, etc.) there's a sound argument that the safety is all there.


Well you are right on the terminology section but it all says commonly. So this is just a little uncommon. I did forget about that tho and was paying more attention to

ASTM F 1979 item 3.3 and 3.5. It is not a sphere but is still with in weight and dimensions.

3.3 Maximum Weight—The paintballs shall not weigh more
than 3.5 g.

3.5 Diameter of Paintball—The diameter of the paintball as
measured both polar and at the seam shall measure between
16.5 mm (0.650 in.) and 18 mm (0.709 in.).

[Gunga]

Since he's not doing it himself, I'll pimp it for him. Billmi's got a video with Gary Gibson from Perfect Circle (who makes the Tiberius & FN303 rounds) at http://www.pigtv.net

The video's the PBExtravaganza one - Gary's about 13.5 minutes in and they talk about the new Tiberius round.

[Beemer]

Since he's not doing it himself, I'll pimp it for him. Billmi's got a video with Gary Gibson from Perfect Circle (who makes the Tiberius & FN303 rounds) at http://www.pigtv.net

He did see post 20 and 43 :D

[billmi]

Beemer, it says the shape is spherical, and it's the dimensions that are commonly .68. I don't think that will be an issue anywhere though, especially if all the performance requirements are met, which I fully expect they are.

Gunga, thanks bro. I did mention it earlier, but I'm so annoyed by people that over-pimp themselves in forums, so I make a concerted effort not to over-do it myself. I will point out, now that you mention it, that I'm the only person in media to have done enough background research to ask Gary about his past as an athlete.

[hitech]

In the video interview Gary states that the rounds are available now. Is that actually the case? If so, where can you purchase them?

Thanks.

:cheers:

[Gunga]

Beemer, it says the shape is Gunga, thanks bro. I did mention it earlier, but I'm so annoyed by people that over-pimp themselves in forums, so I make a concerted effort not to over-do it myself. I will point out, now that you mention it, that I'm the only person in media to have done enough background research to ask Gary about his past as an athlete.

Guess that's what I get for skimming the thread. Oh well. If it gets you more website traffic... :D

Wonder if Gary's still got that Miata that he and TK hung by a CF gripframe way back when.

[paullus99]

I could certainly see this making the Splatmaster dangerous again. This is going to take a while to get my head around it - I mean, this is probably about as close to what we all wanted paintball to be like, waaaaaaay back in the day when pistols were the norm.

I don't think it would have as much of an effect on the Speedball crowd, but I can definitely see this as a major game-changer on the scenario & woodsball side of the sport. Cost will definitely come down over time, but unless you develop a much larger feeding mechanism (like a drum magazine) you're going to be limited to the clip size.

Again, it will be interesting to see how the sport reacts.

[Coralis]

Honestly I hope this stays as option for pumps and low rate of fire semis, as I would think it would add an interesting dynamic to the game and make pumps more appealing to a larger number pf players

[LONEWOLFOO1]

If this round happens to do well in the scenario sector of paintball I can see the automags taking advantage of this new round. All that may be needed to be change is the main body and a feed system THINK about it AGD.

http://i539.photobucket.com/albums/ff351/CROM10314/SMG_BACK.jpg

or something similar to my set up using the FS round

http://i539.photobucket.com/albums/ff351/CROM10314/TACNEW3.jpg

[malJohann]

http://i539.photobucket.com/albums/ff351/CROM10314/SMG_BACK.jpg

What is that?! :headbang:

[LONEWOLFOO1]

What is that?! :headbang:

Halo 2 Smg. All hail the master chief.

[Beemer]

Tiberius new Video with clear view and two camera angles at 300 feet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjPxA4fjK-U&feature=channel_page

[Ninjeff]

awesome vid.


Y'know i was just thinking....these would make that Airow gun at least somewhat useful now...

[pump]

what makes it more aerodynamic?

the shape? or the spinning?

would it go further if there were no fins on the back end?
not talking accuracy, just range


i would like to see whats further this or the tippmann flatline
but moneys on the first strike

[Looper]

i would like to see whats further this or the tippmann flatlineDistance might be close for both but accuracy and velocity at the far end would be on the First Strike. The Flatline round would just bounce off your target at the extreme end of the range not to mention accuracy would be all over the place for the flatline round.

If your laying down suppression fire, go with the flatline, it would be cheaper. If you want to take out your target I think first strike would be the preferred choice.

[Spider-TW]

what makes it more aerodynamic?

the shape? or the spinning?

would it go further if there were no fins on the back end?
not talking accuracy, just range


i would like to see whats further this or the tippmann flatline
but moneys on the first strike
I had the same thoughts, but the flatline's accuracy problem is its secret to better distance. Up to a point, a larger seam on the paintball will give it more lift if the seam comes out mostly horizontal. Keeping the seams the same size and orientation is pretty impossible.

I wonder if you could "handload" a tippmann SMG stripper clip, put it through an SMG with a flatline barrel (mod) and see an accuracy improvement.

The spinning on the FS helps the aerodynamics a little by delaying the collapse of the air flow just behind the skirt. More importantly, it compensates for manufacturing and handling defects like bent fins by "spreading the love" evenly in flight. We should see beat-up FS rounds still going straight, but not as far. Considering the price and some of the grassy fields where I expect to see these used, I will probably try to reuse any that I find whole. :p

[Swamp Thing]

I had the same thoughts, but the flatline's accuracy problem is its secret to better distance. Up to a point, a larger seam on the paintball will give it more lift if the seam comes out mostly horizontal. Keeping the seams the same size and orientation is pretty impossible.

I wonder if you could "handload" a tippmann SMG stripper clip, put it through an SMG with a flatline barrel (mod) and see an accuracy improvement.

The spinning on the FS helps the aerodynamics a little by delaying the collapse of the air flow just behind the skirt. More importantly, it compensates for manufacturing and handling defects like bent fins by "spreading the love" evenly in flight. We should see beat-up FS rounds still going straight, but not as far. Considering the price and some of the grassy fields where I expect to see these used, I will probably try to reuse any that I find whole. :p

I think the first strike and flatline are totaly not compatable.

Thre first strike will be rotating/spining along the axis of flight.

The flatline puts backspin (I think) on the ball so if it where able to put any spin on a first strike that spin would make it flip around and you would lose the effect of the fins.

Swamp

[Engus]

I think the first strike and flatline are totaly not compatable.

Thre first strike will be rotating/spining along the axis of flight.

The flatline puts backspin (I think) on the ball so if it where able to put any spin on a first strike that spin would make it flip around and you would lose the effect of the fins.

Swamp

he was talking about normal paintballs in the flatlined smg, and loading them so they all had correctly oriented seams for maximum performance from the flatline.

[pump]

what about a spinning and non spinning first strike ball?

im thinking that it needs to spin for the range

[Engus]

what about a spinning and non spinning first strike ball?

im thinking that it needs to spin for the range

yea, if it didnt spin it would have almost the exact same trajectory as a normal ball.

[hitech]

what about a spinning and non spinning first strike ball?

im thinking that it needs to spin for the range


ALL of the design elements (the shape, weight distribution and spin) are necessary as they all work together. Take away the spin for example and the round would likely tumble.

[pump]

hummmm so if we had a first strike without fins and we shot them out of 2 barrels one smooth bore, and the other like an armson or hammer head

would the spin give it any extra range?


and if it does

would a normal spinning paintball fly further?

[Beemer]

The FS round is stabilized by the spin, read more accurate.

It holds velocity down range because of less drag.

Any Paintball regardless of spin is dropping velocity faster because of more drag.

[hitech]

hummmm so if we had a first strike without fins and we shot them out of 2 barrels one smooth bore, and the other like an armson or hammer head

would the spin give it any extra range?


and if it does

would a normal spinning paintball fly further?

Those "rifled" barrels don't spin the paintball anywhere near fast enough (if at all) to be of any use. The fins are what cause the FS round to spin. That stabilizes the round. So, without the fins it would not spin which would likely cause it to tumble and ruin everything.

The shape is likely what gives it most of it's extra range, but I have NO idea what affect the spin has by itself on the drag.

And no, a normal paintball spinning around the axis of travel doesn't fly any farther.

[Beemer]

Those "rifled" barrels don't spin the paintball anywhere near fast enough (if at all) to be of any use. The fins are what cause the FS round to spin. That stabilizes the round. So, without the fins it would not spin which would likely cause it to tumble and ruin everything.

The shape is likely what gives it most of it's extra range, but I have NO idea what affect the spin has by itself on the drag.
And no, a normal spinning paintball doesn't fly any farther.


I have no idea either. All I know is that at 100ft it is still holding the velocity of a Paintball at 50ft :argh: and at 200ft it is holding velocity of a paintball at about 75ft. :eek:

from post 126 Page 4
http://home.comcast.net/~beemerone/FirstStrikeVelocity.jpg

[pump]

The FS round is stabilized by the spin, read more accurate.

It holds velocity down range because of less drag.
so shape alone is the range giving properties




this matches up with what my Grandfather says is its Fineness, says something thats longer will have less drag than something thats the same Dia but shorter

wondering if this is the principle happening with the FS





yeah i seen that and thats why the questions


hahahahaha when i get an FS im gonna grind off the fins and test it

[hitech]

I have no idea either. All I know is that at 100ft it is still holding the velocity of a Paintball at 50ft :argh: ...

My guess is that it is almost all because of the shape. But, that's just a SWAG. ;)