What are the Questions

[Beemer]

How come the manufactures dont follow ASTM Standards?? Why dont THEY CARE??

How come NO ONE CARES??

Back in the day we were so safety ANAL it was crazy and I thought STUPID but when I look back I long for those days. SAFETY, EDUCATION and INFORMATION. It ALL only failed for ONE reason $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Then I think about the IPPA, ASTM and all the good folks that CARED that arent around anymore. :(

[neppo1345]

Can you be more specific?

Either I'm spaced out at 4 A.M after some serious studying, or this doesn't make sense.

Edit: Read other thread, still doesn't make much sense.

Do you have a copy of the ASTM standards to compare current markers/barrel blockers/netting/warning labels/etc against?

[insixdays777]

its all about $$$ and CHEAP over seas manufacturing.

Example. Dangerous Power paintball. They have been having many of their micro fittings on their new G3's pop off the macro line causing hose whip. Some of the fitting have exploded and the fitting parts have flown around hitting near by people.

DP has recognized the issue and they are going with another mfg of the fittings.

What did they save 75cents per fitting to have them made in china by 12yr olds? Was it worth the danger, safety issues and bad press?

Its one thing to have cheap chinese detents, hoppers, barrels, electronics...but it becomes a very bad safety issue when the super cheap (price and quality) mentality finds its way into the "dangerous" systems on our markers i.e. regulators, fittings, hoses, valves.

ATSM cant be all places at all times and dont look into many of the parts we use on our markers.

It should be a moral duty and concern by the manufacture. Some just dont care anymore.

Seems like the price of a new players left eye is going for about .75cents these days....

[MANN]

How come the manufactures dont follow ASTM Standards?? Why dont THEY CARE??


Why should they? What is the benifit of following? As far as I know there isn't one.

Paintball didnt fail because of high rof/elec markers. They failed because there was no "governing body".

Lets take hockey for example (mainly because I play, and know examples that are easily explainable).

Id venture to guess that 90% of hockey rinks are "USA Hockey" members. Which means that if you want to play on their field you have to be a USA Hockey member. With this membership you get insurance (when playing), and various information and newsletters (membership is ~ 20 bucks a year).

With USA hockey there is a set standard of rules. IE what equipment can and cannot be used. One of the things that I have been dinged on is what helmets are allowed. I own an old JOFA hockey helmet. They sold for 50-60 bucks back in the day. These are not allowed on USA rinks due to their lack of protection. They are very thin, and lack much foam, but are comfortable, allow lots of air flow, and IMO are comfy. I cannot wear this while playing ice or roller hockey in a USA rink. I do wear it all the time when playing on frozen ponds & asphault rinks.

With this the mfrg was able to produce equipment that does have a "need". People like me who want comfort over safety.

You should not limit markers just like you should not limit cars speed. You just know that you cannot excede the speed limit, or use XX marker that does not meet X rules.

I like the idea that my CBR can do 150, and I like the idea that my viking can do 30bps. It does not mean that I will do it all the time, but occasionally both are necessary/fun.

If there is any person/originazation that the blame should be laid on it is IMO the psp/nppl/whatever other paintball org. They allowed sponsors to set the rules.

IMO ASTM stds are not always what I call up to par/over reaching. It is another governing body that plays behind a computer. OSHA says I cannot lift over 40lbs. I am not going to bow down to that limitation either.

[leloup]

What is the situation? Link?

I am a business teacher, and I always make a big deal about business ethics in my classes. I'm fightin' for you, Beemer.

[Coralis]

One could argue that alot of this came to pass by the actions of one company and its litigation/threatened litigation enforcing its questionable patents. Thus forcing companies overseas or out of business.

[chafnerjr]

One could argue that alot of this came to pass by the actions of one company and its litigation/threatened litigation enforcing its questionable patents. Thus forcing companies overseas or out of business.

I would love to blame smart parts... but really, this is kind of natural of any maturing product market... there will always be bad manufacturing moves. We as consumers have a responsibility to voice concerns and not buy the products based on the info we have. This will force the company to either change or die out. Simple free market capitalism will save the day... well that and the interwebs. :cheers:

[Chronobreak]

How come the manufactures dont follow ASTM Standards?? Why dont THEY CARE??

How come NO ONE CARES??

Back in the day we were so safety ANAL it was crazy and I thought STUPID but when I look back I long for those days. SAFETY, EDUCATION and INFORMATION. It ALL only failed for ONE reason $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Then I think about the IPPA, ASTM and all the good folks that CARED that arent around anymore. :(

the sport has only gotten to where it is due to most fields and manufacturers being safety concious.

but some got a little out of hand over the years things seem to be settling down.

i believe there is another standards group in paintball being organized as we speak.

also OSHA is a standard that must also be applied, and followed and can be enforced unlike ASTM.

[Beemer]

the sport has only gotten to where it is due to most fields and manufacturers being safety concious.

but some got a little out of hand over the years things seem to be settling down.

i believe there is another standards group in paintball being organized as we speak.

also OSHA is a standard that must also be applied, and followed and can be enforced unlike ASTM.

Safety conscious?? If they dont follow ASTM STANDARDS or INSURANCE giude lines, how are
THEY safety conscious? BUT then again isnt it up to US the players. Thats the first problem. Most players dont KNOW or CARE what safety standards they should follow and inforce.

What is this other Standards group you mention?

So to follow the thread title heres a question. Applies to ALL fields[Nation wide] AND ALL Manufactures.

How many would be left standing with NO violations. If it was you, me, us or OSHA, doing the review with ASTM and insurance guide lines in hand?

Hmmmm nice point with the OSHA thing. If they start paying attention it would be a good thing. Then again the CPSC is already paying attention and its just a matter of time.

Damn OSHA, ASTM, CPSC and insurance all mentioned in the same post. :tard:

I have more questions but will make more posts so you dont think its all at you. :cheers:

[cockerpunk]

i have spent a long time talking with ray from ninja about ASTM standards. looking though them there is alot of very interesting stuff, but as MANN pointed out, its totally voluntary for manufacturers to follow it. and lets keep in mind AGD falls into the category of the companies that agreed to an later rejected things like the 13 BPS rule.

over on techpb in the punkworks section we have discussed an ASTM like consumer group. much the same way as the participants in punkworks are a consumer based research group, this would be a set of standardized tests that we can all do on our equipment to evaluate it. it would not be a governing body by any means, but it would the equivalent of say a rockwell hardness testing, charpy impact testing, and other tools engineers use to evaluate materials. it would give us a common test we can all do to say "my gun shoots a 4" and "well my gun shoots a 3" why the difference?

in the coming months we should be releasing information about these standardized tests for things like paintball brittleness, efficiency of your setup, accuracy of your setup, and the like.

ray has told me that many of these standardized test ideas we have are already written down in the paintball ASTM stuff.

but i straight up told him, if the consumers arn't seeing these tests, arn't seeing the data produced by these tests, that we will just have to do them ourselves. thats kind of the mentality we have over there, if the industry isn't going to give us what we want, we'll just have to do it ourselves.

[Beemer]

and lets keep in mind AGD falls into the category of the companies that agreed to an later rejected things like the 13 BPS rule.

ray has told me that many of these standardized test ideas we have are already written down in the paintball ASTM stuff.

but i straight up told him, if the consumers arn't seeing these tests, arn't seeing the data produced by these tests, that we will just have to do them ourselves. thats kind of the mentality we have over there, if the industry isn't going to give us what we want, we'll just have to do it ourselves.


No you got that first part WRONG. He didnt reject it. You have anything to support THAT statement?

For the other part you are right. They know they just DONT tell or no one is asking. If you do ask will they tell.


What test standards are you looking at. I can tell you what tests they use for some things but have no info on ANY results.

[cockerpunk]

No you got that first part WRONG. He didnt reject it. You have anything to support THAT statement?

For the other part you are right. They know they just DONT tell or no one is asking. If you do ask will they tell.


What test standards are you looking at. I can tell you what tests they use for some things but have no info on ANY results.

ill search warpig right now ...


In 1999 the most of the major paintgun manufacturers signed an agreement stating that they wouldn't sell paintguns capable of shooting more than 13 balls per second. None that made faster paintguns pulled them from the market, and many of those companies have since come out with new paintguns capable of shooting over 13 bps. Why? I would believe because they're building what people are buying.

and


After the meeting, Bill Gardner of Smart Parts, Tom Kaye of Airgun Designs, John Rice of WDP and Bud Orr of Worr Games Products held a private meeting. They agreed to use the term "Super Semi" to describe paintguns which, through the use of electronics, mechanics, or pneumatics, aided the user in cycling the trigger faster, and thus firing faster than a traditional semi-automatic. Tom Kaye mentioned that new feed systems could be on the market in less than a year capable of reliably feeding paintguns at rates in excess of 19 shots per second, as until now one of the limiting factors in rates of fire has been reliable feed. According to Tom Kaye, in an announcement after the meeting, they agreed that they would not manufacture Super Semis capable of firing more than 13 shots per second.

from: http://74.125.95.132/custom?q=cache:EGfdpHL37_IJ:www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/turbo/index.shtml+Tom+kaye+bud+orr&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

[Chronobreak]

Safety conscious?? If they dont follow ASTM STANDARDS or INSURANCE giude lines, how are
THEY safety conscious? BUT then again isnt it up to US the players. Thats the first problem. Most players dont KNOW or CARE what safety standards they should follow and inforce.

What is this other Standards group you mention?

So to follow the thread title heres a question. Applies to ALL fields[Nation wide] AND ALL Manufactures.

How many would be left standing with NO violations. If it was you, me, us or OSHA, doing the review with ASTM and insurance guide lines in hand?

Hmmmm nice point with the OSHA thing. If they start paying attention it would be a good thing. Then again the CPSC is already paying attention and its just a matter of time.

Damn OSHA, ASTM, CPSC and insurance all mentioned in the same post. :tard:

I have more questions but will make more posts so you dont think its all at you. :cheers:

you would like to think so wouldnt you, i could name a few large manufactureres that has products i feel are not following astm standards

:cough: gen x goggles :cough:

things seema bit better of people being aware of what needs to be and should be done, but as Cockerpunk said this information is mostly hidden or cost $ for the public and even those who just want to follow these standards.

and there are ALOT to follow as mentioned ASTM, OSHA, etc as well as individual guidelines you amy set and enforce for your field/business etc.

and also has said, if the rules were striclty enforced who would be left standing? i know i would be missing a leg or kneecap probly ;)

too bad there isnt just ONE site where i could go find all the standards that would apply to this industry :tard:

[p8ntbal4me]

OSHA is a standard that must also be applied, and followed and can be enforced unlike ASTM.

OSHA is a secondary standard that is held up by ASTM primary standard.

Example: A ladder to get in and out of a trench DOES NOT carry an OSHA approval,.. OSHA DOES NOT approve anything!

What they do is say "it is approved for safe use if the ladder meets ASTM standards"

Nothing more than a liability.

Dont get the 2 confused,..... cost a guy I know $17,000 for a damn ladder!

~ P8nt

[p8ntbal4me]

the sport has only gotten to where it is due to most fields and manufacturers being safety concious.

but some got a little out of hand over the years things seem to be settling down.

i believe there is another standards group in paintball being organized as we speak.

also OSHA is a standard that must also be applied, and followed and can be enforced unlike ASTM.


Bleh,.. im not picking on you Chrono,.. its just I live OSHA/MSHA guidelines for a living. :)
Take this with a grain of salt! (Beemer,.. this means you too!)

Think of the safety standards as a tier system based on 2 items: Products & Operational Guidelines.

The Product guidelines are based off of ASTM standards. All protective equipment in order to provide the function in which it was intended to pose MUST follow some kind of guideline. There can be just one,... but generally there are several.

Example: a mask probley carries one for each part/item that makes up the entire mask itself,.. but we will say that ALL masks only have 2 parts. A lense, and a face protector

The lense itself must meet an ASTM standard for what its intended use is,... in this case it would be "eye protection". There is a single ASTM standard for such classification,.. but its very broad. We call this a "Division". Divsions help manufactures break down what guidelines their products are going to fall under long before they ever make it to proto-type phase.
So while the lense itself falls under "eye protection", it doesnt say what it protects eyes from. For all we know by that broad guideline,.. it could be said that $20 Home Depot Liquid Splash safety glasses are of equal protection to a paintball player as a Paintball lense.

We all know thats not true.

So under that broad division we find breakdowns of different ASTM standards called "Chapters". Chapters refine the elements of what the product function is under a Divsion. So now here is where you find the ASTM standard break away the products that do and do not suite our needs for paintball players. The lense protects the eyes,.. we know that. Now we need to find the chapter that uses "eye protection - impact". Meaning that the separation of the shop glasses and the paintball lense is further defined.

The product keeps getting re-defined until you make it to the bottom and have reached a complete ASTM coded standard for your product.

The Operational Guidelines are exactly the same workings of Product ASTM standards,.. only you use multiple items that carry different standards to cover a much more broad range of safety. Think of it like this,... the mask is an ASTM certified piece of equipment in all aspects of things. If you were to take the goggles (the lense and the piece that holds the lense) away from the protective face layers,... you still have an ASTM product regardless of its separation. However,.. its not NOT recommended by the manufacturer that you use the goggles WITHOUT the mask pieces. This is NOT actually a "manufacturers suggestion", its an ASTM standard set by someone OTHER than the manufacturer, that says "your product MUST AT LEAST protect the user with the lense and housing unit for the lense (goggle)" The manufacturer knows that at the minimum, they must put out a lense and goggle that protects the user.

Now,.. insurance ties all that together. Fields cant operate with equipment that does not meet "insurance guidelines". Insurance companies get their guidelines from ASTM and some of their own in house guidelines based off of "claim loss" they gather. The thing to remember here guys is the insurance company is out to make money,.. they dont want you to get hurt! That means they have to pay! What they want is a constant method to be paid and keep customers,.. by customers,.... thats the field owners,.. not the players.

Back in 1992-96 you could see guys in the NPPL series like Miami Rage that played with ONLY goggles. Back then,.. this was allowed. The reason behind this no longer being allowed is the insurance companies saw a trend of claims due to facial impact on areas OTHER than the sections of face the goggles protected. So,.. what they did was told local field owners that in order to renew the policy,... they would have to follow a new guideline done "in house" that forced players to wear FULL facial protection. In the back ground, insurnace compaies like the IPPA gathered up all its data, arranged some meetings to have writers for safety guidelines to re-look at the ASTM standards,.. pleaded the case,.. and advised a change in product manufacturing.

The result is the standards we have for full face and eye protection on the fields.

The reason for the long winded example here fellas is to point out there ARE guidelines in full use,... but your topic sounds more like fields/manufacturers not following INSURANCE carrier guidelines over ASTM standards.

A roll of netting can be sent off a truck,.. brand new,.. unrolled,.. strung up,.. used for 5 minutes,.. poke a hole in it,..and guess what,.. it no longer meets an ASTM standard because it does not meet the safety guidelines in which it was manufactured for intended use. Rolls of netting are minimum of $300+,.. an expensive field owners cost. So what the field owner does it cuta small piece out of another small roll,.. zip tie it over the hole,... and call it a day. This still does not meet the ASTM standards guys,.. but what it DOES meet is the insurance guideline as "an impermiable layer of protective netting from one end to another that properly encloses the playing area". Does it violate insurance guidelines,.. yes. Because it fails the ASTM standard. Does it pass for the insurance companies gudelines,... yes. Because they see this as a "acceptable measure of correction". A company that insures a field knows,... you cant shut the place down for a single hole,... if the steps to correct the problem are met,... then it remains a reasonable clause to continue the policy.

OSHA works the same way with their fines. You can have your first penalty for $7,000. But the inspector looks at your company record and sees that you have had a zero incident record for the past 2 years. So within reason,.. they may say: "your fine is $7,000, but we see here that you have had zero incidents over 2 years Mr Field Owner. We also see that you make it mandatory to have all of your current staff as well as new staff trained in OSHA safety awarness. So what we are going to do is drop your $7,000 fine to $2,500 and require a 1 hour safety evaluation for you and the staff member that is at fault."

** Thats an example of OSHA on a construction job,... but related to Paintball **

Insurace companies are very simular,... the company that I work for wants me as an employee to set an example for everyone I work with. They want lower insuance rates, overhead costs, etc.

We can not get that without some kind of guideline in place. The rate of fire is a perfect example of a non-ASTM standard that is enforced by an insurance company. Insurance companies DO allow more than just semi auto guys,.... but field owners have to pay for that. Do you think they can afford that kind of premium? So what if jo blow can fun his gun in full auto all day. Hes still going to shoot that case of paint he came with and go home... only now hes not playing longer and having fun all day long with his buddies,... hes sitting on the sidelines, waiting for them to get done, going home early,.. or even WORSE,.. hes going home early and taking his 3 friends with him. Thats 4 customers that are not spending money at the field. Somewhere along the lines a study was done to compare the price of insurance premiums with sales and the semi auto only rule was the cheaper/safest way to go. Call it what you want,... but thats just how it is in the end,... a matter of a few bucks.

~ P8nt

[Beemer]

too bad there isnt just ONE site where i could go find all the standards that would apply to this industry :tard:

And there in lies the problem. There is no info and if there is where is it? Scattered ALL over.

If you dont know or dont care will you look for it? Or will you just use what ever you can get or have?

What is the burst disk on the tank for 3000 and 4500 PSI? what is it down stream for the same? How many regs have two disks? What is a safe fill at 4500psi? And on and on........... :( Ask Mark Contois what he thinks about all of it. Or ask his wife Colette, oh wait you cant. She is dead because PAINTBALL got stupid. You could ask Benita Johnson how she feels. Her son is dead beacause Paintball got stupid.

Thing is the industry today REALLY doesnt care about your safety and if they did a lot more info would be posted BY THEM or at the least they would follow the standards.

[Reiner]

Paintball didnt fail because of high rof/elec markers. They failed because there was no "governing body".
First of all, I don't think paintball failed yet, or at least not completely. There is still hope for a recovery.

I agree though that the fact that paintball doesn't have a governing body (one with teeth) hurts us.

The PSTA is starting to work together with manufacturers and field and store owners to write a set of standards to be followed. I don't know how much teeth this will have in the end, but hopefully it's a step in the right direction.

[Lohman446]

As noted above most major sports have at least some sanctioning body.

Hockey was the example

Softball has ASA

Auto racing has various

Even running as the USTA (I might be wrong on the designation)

Want to know something funny... I snowshoe competetively in races, and we even have a sanctioning and governing body. I can promise you far less people snowshoe competetively every year than play paintball.

[Reiner]

I can promise you far less people snowshoe competetively every year than play paintball.
Haha. You think?

[Beemer]

Haha. You think?

LOL Dodgeball has a real governing body. :eek: The question is how can paintball be so stupid after 25 plus years and not have a real governing body. :tard:

[Reiner]

LOL Dodgeball has a real governing body. :eek: The question is how can paintball be so stupid after 25 plus years and not have a real governing body. :tard:The difference is paintball is both a sport and a hobby. Dodgeball is basically just a sport.

The majority of people play paintball as a leisure activity, moreso than a competitive sport. If anything, the paintball industry is more like the scuba diving industry. It's a pastime pursued by many that has potential dangers associated with it. We should probably have an association more like PADI.

[Beemer]

The difference is paintball is both a sport and a hobby. Dodgeball is basically just a sport.

The majority of people play paintball as a leisure activity, moreso than a competitive sport. If anything, the paintball industry is more like the scuba diving industry. It's a pastime pursued by many that has potential dangers associated with it. We should probably have an association more like PADI.

You lost me. Hobby, sport, passtime. Dodgeball and Scuba have a governing body. Rules AND standards that are followed. Paintball has rules and standards that arent followed. Hobby or passtime ya, sport...........I dont think so with out a true governing body.

Then again think IPPA and why did that fail?

[Reiner]

Sports have governing bodies that basically set rules of the game. They also set criteria that determies what levels players can play those games at. It's a much simpler process to set up rules and regulations for a relatively simple sport that virtually everyone plays in much the same fashion.

Paintball, for the most part is not a sport. There is the sport side to it, but it is realy only a small part of the whole paintball industry. Paintball needs a governing body to ensure everyone taking part in the activity is doing so in a safe fashion, whether in an arena (as a sport), at a commercial recreatioanl facility, or even playing privately (renegade).

For instance, PADI (in the scuba industry) ensures that everyone getting their tanks filled has gone through some basic training. Paintball has nothing of that nature in place. Virtually anyone can purchase a marker, or get propellant for that marker. I think at the very least there should be some kind of basic certification process in place, to ensure that someone purchasing a marker, or getting their tank filled has proven that at least they know the basic safety procedures involved with paintball. It doesn't need to be a complicated process. A simple 15 or 20 minute written test (might even be open book) that makes sure the person understands the basics.

The problem is in the past the paintball industry was so concerned about growing as quickly as possible, they didn't want any roadblocks of any nature in place that might impede the growth. That's probably still the case. Any kind of standards that might be at all difficult to achieve would slow growth, and we wouldn't want that, would we? Therefore there has always been a resistance to put anything in place that might actually make the industry a little more legititmate.

The diving industry looked at it differently. They knew that diving was inherently a dangerous pastime, especially without proper training (and admittedly it is much more dangerous than paintball). They knew that if they did not create anorganization that would police itself, it wouldn't take long for governments to do it for them. Governments tend to police with a heavy hand (they usually charge for it too, in the forms of fes and licences). Through the creation of PADI, the diving industry has been able to keep the strong arm of the government out of the industry for the most part.

The paintball industry has in the past, and will continue to in the future, have governments look at the industry with the eye to create restrictions for us. Governments don't really like to get involved in making rules for industries, but if they feel forced to because the industry itself is not doing so, they will.

[Lohman446]

The difference is paintball is both a sport and a hobby. Dodgeball is basically just a sport.

The majority of people play paintball as a leisure activity, moreso than a competitive sport. If anything, the paintball industry is more like the scuba diving industry. It's a pastime pursued by many that has potential dangers associated with it. We should probably have an association more like PADI.


I promise you that far more people snowshoe as a hobby over a sport (ever run in snowshoes, it is HARD). I have NEVER been to a competition that was not sanctioned by the USSA (and offered discounted entrance to USSA members). Aside from some snowshoes meant for children to play in I have not found any that do not meet USSA standards. More people run (normal running) for hobby than sport and I have never been to an event that was not sanctioned by the USATF. I can walk into any major sporting goods store today and I would have a hard time finding a softball bat that did not have the ASA stamp on it. And the idea of technology being the issue - my current snowshoes are pretty advanced compared to some that are used. Some are even more advanced.

Most "athletic" events that lead towards any kind of competition, even when done primarily as a hobby, have some sort of governing body.

[Lohman446]

Beemer, you seemed to have missed a point. The questions are there. IMO the answers start the same way the cheating did, in a niche segment.

Give me GOVERNED pump tournaments where safety, fair play, and honest competition are the game and I will be nearly instantly back into paintball, even if I have to travel to do it. Don't think we have to take on the entire "establishment" as it is, lets do it bit by bit. No "we are going pro" nonsense either.... lets keep the we can make money PLAYING crowd as far away as we can.

[billmi]

Paintball didnt fail because of high rof/elec markers. They failed because there was no "governing body".


In what way has paintball failed? It's not going through the booming growth it had a few years back, but that hardly qualifies as failure.

There's a lot of comparison of paintball to SCUBA in this thread. The most recent large scale sports participation survey data that the SGMA published in 2008 estimates that there are almost twice as many people playing paintball than participating in SCUBA diving, and more people playing paintball than BMX riding and surfing put together.




For instance, PADI (in the scuba industry) ensures that everyone getting their tanks filled has gone through some basic training.

Not exactly. I'm not PADI certified but I have never had a problem getting tanks filled or getting on a chartered dive boat. That's because I am certified by NASE.

NASE, PADI, SSI, NAUI, YMCA, BSAC, CMAS, and other SCUBA certifications are all widely accepted. As different groups, they do not all train to the same standards, either - for example I was trained with the Jeppeson materials to dive to max depth of 100 feet under my open water certification, while PADI open water certification only trains to a max depth of 60 feet. It gets even way more splintered when you get into niche areas like cave diving, technical or wreck diving certifications - the standards of each of those groups differ more widely. Tech divers routinely do decompression diving - something that is prohibited under PADI.

The SCUBA training agencies have no legal power, and use of any of their standards is voluntary - I have seen gear rented without proof of certification before, and dive operators taking divers on dives for which they were not certified, Dive charters taking open-water divers on wreck penetration dives is fairly common, especially in resort areas. The situation is very much like paintball, in that independent training/standardization is out there, but the enforcement is voluntary, and lies mostly in the insurance requirements and threat of liability losses.

Also, it is not uncommon for SCUBA shops to fill tanks without proof of certification if they know they won't be used for life support (i.e. diving.) Some shops will fill tanks painted (not for breathing) or with the customer signing a contract that they won't use the tank for diving. That has only come about since the paintball demand for high pressure compressed air.

In comparison paintball is far more organized and cohesive, in that the widely accepted safety standards come from primarily from one group, not several, and the insurance companies are fairly consistent with their requirements for field insurance policies.

The real reason there's not a single governing body for paintball is not to do with safety standards at all - it's to do with politics. NPPL, Inc. wanted to be the international governing body for paintball, but no way would PSP want to have to submit to the whims of NPPL leadership, so they started their own international governing body that went nowhere. Where are we going to find a scenario paintball producer who's going to want to have to use NPPL or PSP rules for their game?


Dodgeball and Scuba have a governing body. Rules AND standards that are followed. Paintball has rules and standards that arent followed. Hobby or passtime ya, sport...

The reality is that no sport has a governing body that everyone follows, it's the same in paintball as anything else. Sports have groups that set standards or rules that some participants in events sanctioned by that body need to follow. The NFL has no authority over a group of guys playing a pick-up game in a park. A group of kids playing footy afterschool don't always have to make sure their goalie is wearing FIFA approved gloves. I REALLY doubt that my local elementary school has bothered to check if their blacktop play area meet the standards of a dodge-ball governing body before letting their kids play, and I'll bet I can buy a ball for dodge ball at Sports Authority that hasn't been certified by a dodge-ball governing body. I helped drag a diver ashore who rented gear from a local shop and tried a solo dive (not allowed under PADI or NASE, nor I doubt any of the other sport diving agencies - but they happily rented him gear knowing what he was planning to do.)


Sports governing bodies only have authority over those that choose to follow them - just like in paintball, where a manufacturer can choose to follow published standards or not. At least at the manufacturing level, there are liability/financial advantaged to following the standards - at the player level, there typically are not..

Heck, even the legally required standards - like DOT's requirements for tank inspection and testing for any compressed gas tank that will be transported on federally funded roads don't always get followed even though they have the teeth of the law behind them. I knew someone personally who was killed by trying to fill a 3,000 PSI steel tank that was out of hydro and visual inspection dates - turns out it was rusted and it blew apart.



Example: a mask probley carries one for each part/item that makes up the entire mask itself,.. but we will say that ALL masks only have 2 parts. A lense, and a face protector

The lense itself must meet an ASTM standard for what its intended use is,... in this case it would be "eye protection". There is a single ASTM standard for such classification,.. but its very broad. We call this a "Division". Divsions help manufactures break down what guidelines their products are going to fall under long before they ever make it to proto-type phase.
So while the lense itself falls under "eye protection", it doesnt say what it protects eyes from. For all we know by that broad guideline,.. it could be said that $20 Home Depot Liquid Splash safety glasses are of equal protection to a paintball player as a Paintball lense.


Not exactly. ASTM F1776Standard Specification for Eye Protective Devices for Paintball Sport, by its very name is about protecting the eyes from a paintball - it does not consist of a separate lens standard, or anything about a mask. It includes performance based testing, firing paintballs from various angles at test dummy wearing the EPD, to be sure no paint can strike the eyes.



So under that broad division we find breakdowns of different ASTM standards called "Chapters". Chapters refine the elements of what the product function is under a Divsion. So now here is where you find the ASTM standard break away the products that do and do not suite our needs for paintball players. The lense protects the eyes,.. we know that. Now we need to find the chapter that uses "eye protection - impact". Meaning that the separation of the shop glasses and the paintball lense is further defined.

The product keeps getting re-defined until you make it to the bottom and have reached a complete ASTM coded standard for your product.


Except that for paintball, all of the standards from eye protection and netting performance to how to set up netting and what warnings a paintgun has to have on the packaging are under the division of sports standards - it's not distributed out to eyes, firearms, nets, etc.


Now,.. insurance ties all that together. Fields cant operate with equipment that does not meet "insurance guidelines". Insurance companies get their guidelines from ASTM and some of their own in house guidelines based off of "claim loss" they gather. The thing to remember here guys is the insurance company is out to make money,.. they dont want you to get hurt! That means they have to pay! What they want is a constant method to be paid and keep customers,.. by customers,.... thats the field owners,.. not the players.

Exactly, and that's the answer to MANN's question about why it is in a manufacturer's best interest to follow the standards, even though they aren't required by law, if there is an injury and the parties involved didn't follow standards that are widely accepted in their industry, courts typically find them more liable for the accident. It's in the insurance company's (and insurance customer's) best interest to mitigate liability by following the standards.



So what the field owner does it cuta small piece out of another small roll,.. zip tie it over the hole,... and call it a day. This still does not meet the ASTM standards guys,..



Which standard does that not meet?
You just described the repair procedure defined in 5.6.1 of F2184, Standard Guide for Installation of Paintball Field Netting.



The rate of fire is a perfect example of a non-ASTM standard that is enforced by an insurance company.....

Yes, but the recent widespread allowing of alternate firing modes and ROF caps didn't come from needing it for fields to retain players who would be bored and go home early, it came from the NXL Commissionar realizing that the previous limitation (semi-automatic) is impossible to enforce while still allowing players to use player-supplied electronic markers. Both ROF and velocity can be measured and enforced on the field, and that is why they were adopted in the NXL, and then trickled down to the rest of the industry, with some insurance programs offering policies for alternate firing modes.