crossing the USA/CANADA border heads up!

[LK-13]

As of June 1, 2009, you will need a passport or other "Secured" method of positive identification when traveling into the USA.
This includes American Citizens returning home from travel abroad.

Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cbpmc/cbpmc_2223.html

this is a sad day coming.

until June 1, 2009 Canada and the USA had the worlds longest unprotected border.
the people that want to control and curtail the freedom of the North American People
Both American and Canadian,
HAVE WON AND DEFEATED THE FREE WORLD AS OF THIS DATE.

Joseph Stalin, Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein,
and all of the other cross-eyed pistol wavers have WON!!
FEAR HAS MADE NORTH AMERICA TURN INTO IT'S OWN ENEMY!!

the Aluminum Curtain is falling.
the Stainless Steel reinforcing wont be long behind.

"When the first link in a chain is forged with the intent to bind others
out of fear, prejudice, or ignorance it damages us all irreparably."
quote source unknown.

to quote the Gestapo "vee need to Zee your Paperz pleazzze...."

[Sumthinwicked]

sad day

[neppo1345]

I for one support this. They should have pushed this through a long time ago, rather than putting it off several years.

1. You should have a passport to begin with.

2. It's no harder to show your passport when crossing a border than it is to show your state ID and birth cert.

From someone who has traveled outside The United States on a regular basis: Using a passport is actually easier than having to produce two forms of ID when crossing the border.

You two have apparently never flown outside of the U.S. or Canada.

[LK-13]

I for one support this. They should have pushed this through a long time ago, rather than putting it off several years.

1. You should have a passport to begin with.

2. It's no harder to show your passport when crossing a border than it is to show your state ID and birth cert.

From someone who has traveled outside The United States on a regular basis: Using a passport is actually easier than having to produce two forms of ID when crossing the border.

You two have apparently never flown outside of the U.S. or Canada.
It's not "just a change in papers" the border before was regulated,
but now it's Openly Armed. And I don't mean Officers carrying a side arm,
I mean beginning June 1, there will be M16's or what ever variant the Border Guards
will be issued, covering the traffic inbound to the USA.
I crossed today and spent some time talking with one of the guys I know at the border.
this is just the first link in the chain that will bind us all COMRADE!
Pray that I'm wrong!
but the next 20 years may be very dark.

you better re-read your history notes.
specifically look up
"Isolationism"
"Totalitarianism"
"Roman Dictatorships, Function, Rise & Fall"
"Germany 1930 to 1989"
"Cuba 1953 to 2009"
"China 1926 to 2006" and the list goes on.

silly me I almost forgot the most local version : McCarthyism
read up on that one.

[Sumthinwicked]

i have flown many places neppo its still a sad day

[SCpoloRicker]

Wait, now securing the borders is a problem? :confused:

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5409/downsodomyupteabagg.jpg

/as an aside, the ridiculous "Obama is teh Socialist!" folks are about as retarded as the "Bush is teh Hitler" types
//also, "Obama" triggers my spellcheck :)

[Tunaman]

I also don't see the harm in showing a passport to get into a foreign country. They really need to know who is coming over here...and going there. I say shoot anyone who doesn't comply. When they sneak a "smart bomb" or the like into this country people will be screaming "HOW did they cross the border with it?"

[punkncat]

I have no problem with people having to show a passport to enter our country from anywhere, much less from those lazy burrito munching Canadians...wait....

[maniacmechanic]

I for one support this. They should have pushed this through a long time ago, rather than putting it off several years.

1. You should have a passport to begin with.

2. It's no harder to show your passport when crossing a border than it is to show your state ID and birth cert.

From someone who has traveled outside The United States on a regular basis: Using a passport is actually easier than having to produce two forms of ID when crossing the border.

You two have apparently never flown outside of the U.S. or Canada.

are the Canidians or the Mexicans our enemies ? If your are arriving from overseas sure you should have a passport
I'm 50 years old & have never had a passport or flown outside the US , and believe it or not there are a LOT of US citizens that have never been out of this country
I see this as an infringment of my rights as a free citizen
I'll assume ( bad word ) when they start knocking on doors & collecting guns " to protect you " you will gladly give them up
Then we will have to have " papers " to go from state to state , they are slowly , methodicly taking away the freedoms our forfathers fought so hard for

[maniacmechanic]

I also don't see the harm in showing a passport to get into a foreign country. They really need to know who is coming over here...and going there. I say shoot anyone who doesn't comply. When they sneak a "smart bomb" or the like into this country people will be screaming "HOW did they cross the border with it?"

I've never considered Canada or Mexico a foreign country
How long is the Canidian border & the Mexican border ? are they going to " iron curtain " it like LK said , otherwise you can cross it just about anywhere
Remember " A lock doesn't stop a thief , it just keeps an honest man honest "

[Raven001]

I also don't see the harm in showing a passport to get into a foreign country. They really need to know who is coming over here...and going there. I say shoot anyone who doesn't comply. When they sneak a "smart bomb" or the like into this country people will be screaming "HOW did they cross the border with it?"

Probably the same way the sneak in tons of Cocaine, wetbacks and stuff. That's assuming they don't buy the ingredients from some local businessmen.

[neppo1345]

It's not "just a change in papers" the border before was regulated,
but now it's Openly Armed. And I don't mean Officers carrying a side arm,
I mean beginning June 1, there will be M16's or what ever variant the Border Guards
will be issued, covering the traffic inbound to the USA.
I crossed today and spent some time talking with one of the guys I know at the border.
this is just the first link in the chain that will bind us all COMRADE!
Pray that I'm wrong!
but the next 20 years may be very dark.

you better re-read your history notes.
specifically look up
"Isolationism"
"Totalitarianism"
"Roman Dictatorships, Function, Rise & Fall"
"Germany 1930 to 1989"
"Cuba 1953 to 2009"
"China 1926 to 2006" and the list goes on.

silly me I almost forgot the most local version : McCarthyism
read up on that one.

Really, REALLY? McCarthyism? I know my history, NO.

How does the caliber of weapons at the border change things? I'd rather have them armed with rifles, it lowers the chance of some green border gaurd putting a round through by head when he's shooting at some jackass trying to rush the border.

The border crossing with Canada and Mexico has been a joke for YEARS.

The fact is that it's a border between two countries, and it should be treated as such. I don't need to go into how strong borders can defend against foreign enemies.


are the Canidians or the Mexicans our enemies ? If your are arriving from overseas sure you should have a passport
I'm 50 years old & have never had a passport or flown outside the US , and believe it or not there are a LOT of US citizens that have never been out of this country
I see this as an infringment of my rights as a free citizen
I'll assume ( bad word ) when they start knocking on doors & collecting guns " to protect you " you will gladly give them up
Then we will have to have " papers " to go from state to state , they are slowly , methodicly taking away the freedoms our forfathers fought so hard for

The Canucks and Mexicans aren't our enemies, but along the lines of that argument: Is everyone who comes in from overseas our enemy? What about the few enemies who get into Canada or Mexico? Why not make it just that much more difficult for them to get in.

How is it an infringement of your rights that you need a passport or NEXUS (or similar) card? You people do realize that this is the WHTI, this is not only a U.S. policy; it's the ENTIRE WESTERN HEMISPHERE.

I have small guns to defend my home and myself, I have bigger guns to defend my smaller guns when they come for them.

Long before we have to show papers to go from state to state, I'll be fighting for my freedom yelling "WOLVERINES!" at the top of my lungs.

[chafnerjr]

Hey now... I will be the first to fight against a loss my loss of freedom. However, this is simply someone saying "hey we need a passport rather than a License and Birth Cert". Really no difference other then that. Look, I am a gun toting Libertarian (not an anarchist) and I have to say that: Having crossed the specific boarder crossing you have LK-13 that this will probably be a little easier. You should have seen how the US Boarder guards treated my friend (An American born in Pakistan) coming across the boarder about 5 years ago. :eek:

My point is that if you haven't been screaming for years already then you shouldn't have a problem now. Keep vigilant though because a lot of REAL freedoms are being lost almost daily now... I just don't think that this is one of them. With that said I'm interested to know if it ends up being easier or more difficult when it does go down. LK-13, you would have the best perspective to keep us up to date.

I read that whole page and several of the links... really not much scary going on. You were required to show "papers" at the border before June 2009 and now you'll need to show a passport instead.

Dealing with passport issues is much simpler then dealing with Birth Certificate issues. Seriously you can loose your passport and take care of it in your own state... you loose your Birth Certificate you may need to be prepared to travel to your original home town to get one if they are punks about it.

I've seen many Town Offices hand over Birth Certificates without checking an ID or very quickly looking at a drivers license. I'd rather deal with a passport for my OWN security.


P.S.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. (excerpt from our Declaration of Independance)

[Raven001]

I think for Canucks that there are two issues here.

The first is that people like LK13 have grown up in border towns where it was convenient to head into the American side for either cheap goods or a healthier bar scene (that was my excuse). Times were good then and as long as you were white and spoke Hinglish well, you didn’t get too much of a hassle. Now these people will have to apply for a passport which can be a pain if you don’t have all your documentation in order.

The second issue that does tick some of us off is the implication that really nasty people are using our country to launch attacks on the US of A including some of the perpetrators of 9/11. http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/04/24/mccain-border-canada-911.html

We up here feel that your southern border is a hell of a lot more susceptible to infiltration than up north. The routes for drug smuggling and people crossing are well established as well as the possibility that some border crossings are manned by guards who are compromised.

That all being said, I think some of LK13's remarks are unwarrented.

[Lohman446]

Because some of us don't have a passport and travel to Canada on a whim. Now we won't. :)

[neppo1345]

Now these people will have to apply for a passport which can be a pain if you don’t have all your documentation in order.

Just out of curiosity; What does it take to get your Canadian Passport? I know all it takes to get a U.S. passport is around 100.00, birth cert, picture, the forms filled out correctly, and about a month of waiting.

I will agree with you in feeling that the U.S./Mexico border is much more vulnerable (or is that just what we are programmed to think by the media?).

I personally <3 my northern brothers and sisters.

[wimag]

It's not "just a change in papers" the border before was regulated,
but now it's Openly Armed. And I don't mean Officers carrying a side arm,
I mean beginning June 1, there will be M16's or what ever variant the Border Guards
will be issued, covering the traffic inbound to the USA.
.

apparently you never crossed from Tijuana back into the states. I walked through the customs buildings numerous times and there were Marines carrying M14's. This was 10+ years ago.
I for one see no problem with providing proof of citizenship to get into my country, as i see no problem providing it when i enter another country.

[Lohman446]

Feel good solution. It is an inconveneince for those who are legally travelling, it might stop the stupid criminals. It leaves hundred (thousands?) of miles of border that is not a border crossing station often seperated by nothing more than a berm between two fields and certainly not patrolled enough to stop anyone intent on crossing illegally.

[Destructo6]

until June 1, 2009 Canada and the USA had the worlds longest unprotected border.
the people that want to control and curtail the freedom of the North American People
Both American and Canadian,
HAVE WON AND DEFEATED THE FREE WORLD AS OF THIS DATE.

Coutries in North America:
Canada
USA
Mexico
You seem to have forgotten about that last one.

The US Border Patrol has been on the northern border for a long time. Their long arms are M4s, similar, if not identical to those issued by the US military. Nobody in their right minds goes out into the bush without one.

otherwise you can cross it just about anywhere
Yeah, but the $5000 fine for entering without inspection sucks.

[LK-13]

scenario;
US citizen visits Niagara Falls Ontario Canada on May 29 through June 1, 2009. has a great time, gets throughly polluted on Canadian Beer
(he actually finished off 2 of them before passing out )
but when he tries to go home Monday Morning (June 1, 2009) he does not have his passport.
he is detained.
Investigated.
detained longer.
detained indefinitely.
don't believe it can happen? Think it's only in a Tom Hanks movie?
tell that to the guy that is living in the Airport in Paris France.

to get a Canadian Passport:
provide the correct forms filled out
birth certificate
Photo ID (drivers license, age of majority card, First Nations/Landed Immigrant card)
if no Photo ID letters from 3 notary publics/ justice of the peace
$85.00
14 business days processing (shorter processing time was to accommodate trucking/shipping industries)

sometimes the short sightedness of some people truly frightens me.

and I have been up in arms about the changes in Canada and North America since the early 1980's when I was too young to do anything about it.
by the time i was of age it was too late, the barn was open and the horses were gone.

BTW,
Drugs and weapons coming from Canada INTO the USA?
not bloody likely,
ever look at the Florida coast line?
or along the shore of the Gulf of Mexico?
no i guess nothing ever comes in from Latin America or Cuba, or Columbia.

you really want to see how your freedoms can be eroded away,
read up on "Gun Control Laws in Canada 1972 to Present"
we went from filling out the forms, taking a safety course, getting your license, taking annual exam to get hunting permit, to forget about it, and a registration system that is currently $14 Billion over budget, and we are no closer to knowing who has what.
and record numbers of "GANG BANGERS" are shooting, being shot and shooting by standers in Southern Ontario then at any other time in history!
including the "Rum Running" days when gangsters, REAL Gangsters like Al Capone ran the streets with Tommy guns!

[SCpoloRicker]

...and I have been up in arms about the changes in Canada and North America since the early 1980's when I was too young to do anything about it....

Er; too young? I was reading this as college student; of the liberal arts variety.

I think my version of the internets may be corrupted.

/srsly confused

[Frizzle Fry]

BTW,
Drugs and weapons coming from Canada INTO the USA?
not bloody likely,
ever look at the Florida coast line?
or along the shore of the Gulf of Mexico?
no i guess nothing ever comes in from Latin America or Cuba, or Columbia.

you really want to see how your freedoms can be eroded away,
read up on "Gun Control Laws in Canada 1972 to Present"
we went from filling out the forms, taking a safety course, getting your license, taking annual exam to get hunting permit, to forget about it, and a registration system that is currently $14 Billion over budget, and we are no closer to knowing who has what.
and record numbers of "GANG BANGERS" are shooting, being shot and shooting by standers in Southern Ontario then at any other time in history!
including the "Rum Running" days when gangsters, REAL Gangsters like Al Capone ran the streets with Tommy guns!

I've got to say, I think there are other more effective ways to secure a border than this. The US has always had great relations with Canada, and as a guy who both used to live in northern Maine, and makes frequent trips over the border at Niagra Falls / Toronto, I've seen firsthand that both Canada and the US already take security very seriously.

That said, as a college student (...not for much longer, though :)) in the northeastern US, I've encountered personally what must amount to at least 100 people who have actively engaged in transporting ecstasy and marijuana over the US/Canada border in volume with the intent of selling it... I'm not "in to" either of those things, but if as a non-user I've met that many people, it must be an issue at least to some degree. From loading bales of pot on to the backs of snowmobiles, to packaging ecstasy in baggies and stowing it in false tires and jars of peanutbutter, or even to filling cases of "soda" with beer as a minor (under 21, US), I've heard and witnessed an enormous abuse on the parts of both US citizens and Canadian citizens of the relatively lax border security. Does that mean the upcoming passport policy is warranted? Not necessarily. Will it help those issues? Probably not. All that said, it can't be denied that drugs come in to the US from Canada, possibly due to the traditionally (relatively) lax policies concerning marijuana and alcohol.

Border lockdown? Probably a stupid idea, because statistically you're right; the Florida coastline and Mexican border account for a majority of the drugs and guns that are entering/leaving the US illegally. Those borders will more than likely NEVER be closed due to the alleged (I say alleged in the most literal sense, not trying to start a fight) racism / classism behind the choice to lock them down.

Again, I'm not throwing my support either way on the racism / classism issue, just stating that those allegations have been a major reason for the border staying relatively open (regardless of there being any truth behind them). Those issues never seem to arise when it comes to Canada, due to the relatively common perception in the US that Canada is comprised solely of a white middle class (I believe the most recent survey showed 2.5% of Canadians identify as "black", under 1% "latin american", and 11% "asian american" though most ethnic diversity has been shown in Toronto). Quite frankly, many US citizens won't have a problem shutting down a border that is utilized primarily by a white middle class.

Anyway, as a guy who loves going to Canada once every few months (and having a more than 3 beers before passing out, thank you very much) this is going to suck... I haven't kept my passport updated and it is a bit of a pain (especially post 9/11) to get it re-issued. On the other hand, if in some sort of trickle-down way this helps tighten even slightly the southern boarders of the US, or even the flow of "harder" drugs (i.e. not Mary Jane) into the US, that might be a good thing.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents as both a US voter and a student of sociology.

[Raven001]

Just out of curiosity; What does it take to get your Canadian Passport? I know all it takes to get a U.S. passport is around 100.00, birth cert, picture, the forms filled out correctly, and about a month of waiting.

I will agree with you in feeling that the U.S./Mexico border is much more vulnerable (or is that just what we are programmed to think by the media?).

I personally <3 my northern brothers and sisters.

It's pretty much the same except it doesn't take a month. I haven't had to renew my passport recently but we also required two guarantors, individuals who have known you for a specific period of time and hold a respectable position in society ie: banker, doctor, lawyer etc. There is a new simplified process that assuming you meet all the conditions, removes some ot the older requirements like the guarantor etc.

I suppose most of us who crossed the border had gotten used to just divulging our citizenship and motoring on through. However, as someone who has had to strip for the good old boys at the border, free passage was never guaranteed.

[chafnerjr]

Boy... I really want to be on your side on this... but I just don't think it's that big a deal. Please remember that we in the US have to deal with a National ID tracking system that is much closer to the communist comparison. Now, my beloved state of NH has signed into law a bill that prohibits NH from participating in the US REAL ID system. So we have to stand in a special line at any US airport if we don't have a passport because our State driver's licenses aren't considered good enough for the US Gov. So I hope you can understand why I don't thinks it's a big deal to HAVE to have a passport to cross into another country.

P.S. I love Canada... well, to visit anyways.


http://i.ehow.com/images/GlobalPhoto/Articles/2130099/flag-main_Full.jpg


P.S. Don't tell me that Canada doesn't have it's fair share of drugs... see even your side of Niagra Falls is trippin' :cheers:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3049/3117467091_a879f49a06.jpg?v=0

[Thordic]

I just had to renew my US passport for a trip to Spain this summer, and the turnaround time was two weeks. Just FYI.

[Lohman446]

How many people on snowmobiles walk into a bar and find they have accidentally crossed the border anyways? The vast majority of our borders are unprotected (and will continue to be)

[teufelhunden]

Agree with Thordic - I got a passport in fall 07 and turnaround was roughly 2 weeks.

[Raven001]

I just had to renew my US passport for a trip to Spain this summer, and the turnaround time was two weeks. Just FYI.

It's possible the other US poster was getting an initial issue of his passport. That might warrent extra scrutiny.

p.s. heard from our friend in Burlington lately?

[Raven001]

How many people on snowmobiles walk into a bar and find they have accidentally crossed the border anyways? The vast majority of our borders are unprotected (and will continue to be)

As I recall, there is a house somewhere out west where the border line passes through the living room... Wonder if they'll have to move it

[teufelhunden]

It's possible the other US poster was getting an initial issue of his passport. That might warrent extra scrutiny.

p.s. heard from our friend in Burlington lately?

My anecdote, from above, was an initial passport.

It's also handy to have, counts for a lot of points for NJ's six points of id (http://www.state.nj.us/mvc/Licenses/6PointID.htm)

[Lohman446]

As I recall, there is a house somewhere out west where the border line passes through the living room... Wonder if they'll have to move it


Nah, just put in armed guards :)

[teufelhunden]

Nah, just put in armed guards :)

It will require a passport to stumble drunk from your couch to desperately piss your brains out in the bathroom across the border :ninja:

[LK-13]

thank you Frizzle Fry,
this is the most insightful post so far.
that sad part that most seem to miss is the simple fact that people in general are applauding the loss of their freedom.
and the loss of that freedom will have little effect on the "criminal activity"
it is supposed to be eliminating.
it's sad all around that we the law abiding imprison ourselves in comfortable cages
(our homes)
while thugs, crooks, Gang Bangers, and other dead beats roam free.
does that not seem a little backward to you?


I've got to say, I think there are other more effective ways to secure a border than this. The US has always had great relations with Canada, and as a guy who both used to live in northern Maine, and makes frequent trips over the border at Niagra Falls / Toronto, I've seen firsthand that both Canada and the US already take security very seriously.

That said, as a college student (...not for much longer, though :)) in the northeastern US, I've encountered personally what must amount to at least 100 people who have actively engaged in transporting ecstasy and marijuana over the US/Canada border in volume with the intent of selling it... I'm not "in to" either of those things, but if as a non-user I've met that many people, it must be an issue at least to some degree. From loading bales of pot on to the backs of snowmobiles, to packaging ecstasy in baggies and stowing it in false tires and jars of peanutbutter, or even to filling cases of "soda" with beer as a minor (under 21, US), I've heard and witnessed an enormous abuse on the parts of both US citizens and Canadian citizens of the relatively lax border security. Does that mean the upcoming passport policy is warranted? Not necessarily. Will it help those issues? Probably not. All that said, it can't be denied that drugs come in to the US from Canada, possibly due to the traditionally (relatively) lax policies concerning marijuana and alcohol.

Border lockdown? Probably a stupid idea, because statistically you're right; the Florida coastline and Mexican border account for a majority of the drugs and guns that are entering/leaving the US illegally. Those borders will more than likely NEVER be closed due to the alleged (I say alleged in the most literal sense, not trying to start a fight) racism / classism behind the choice to lock them down.

Again, I'm not throwing my support either way on the racism / classism issue, just stating that those allegations have been a major reason for the border staying relatively open (regardless of there being any truth behind them). Those issues never seem to arise when it comes to Canada, due to the relatively common perception in the US that Canada is comprised solely of a white middle class (I believe the most recent survey showed 2.5% of Canadians identify as "black", under 1% "latin american", and 11% "asian american" though most ethnic diversity has been shown in Toronto). Quite frankly, many US citizens won't have a problem shutting down a border that is utilized primarily by a white middle class.

Anyway, as a guy who loves going to Canada once every few months (and having a more than 3 beers before passing out, thank you very much) this is going to suck... I haven't kept my passport updated and it is a bit of a pain (especially post 9/11) to get it re-issued. On the other hand, if in some sort of trickle-down way this helps tighten even slightly the southern boarders of the US, or even the flow of "harder" drugs (i.e. not Mary Jane) into the US, that might be a good thing.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents as both a US voter and a student of sociology.

[SCpoloRicker]

it's sad all around that we the law abiding imprison ourselves in comfortable cages
(our homes)
while thugs, crooks, Gang Bangers, and other dead beats roam free.
does that not seem a little backward to you?

Well, I'm "imprisoned" in my office at work, but that pays for my homes.

In all seriousness, this woe is prompted by the requirement to have a passport to cross a national border?

[LK-13]

this woe is prompted by the requirement to have a passport to cross a national border?

this Woe has been prompted by the slow erosion of the freedoms of North Americans over the last 35+ years;
combined with the willingness to let the government do as it pleases even if the action is actually punishing those to proclaims to protect.

Ben Franklin said something to the effect of a person that trades Liberty for security deserves and shall receive neither.

True Evil is censorship.
True Evil is removing rights because "we know what is best for you".
True Evil is resting in comfort and failing to notice the walls being built around you.
True Evil is to ignore the passage from the US Constitution that was quoted earlier,
Despotism seldom appears as a Hammer to an Anvil,
The Comfort of a Home transformed into a Prison is True Evil.
It happens imperceptibly over time.
"Then one day you stop to find;
10 years have got behind you.
No One told you when to run,
You missed the Starting Gun."
Pink Floyd.

[chafnerjr]

In all seriousness, this woe is prompted by the requirement to have a passport to cross a national border?
Yep...

But I am still trying to see what freedoms are being eroded here... I see a small hassle but no loss of freedom. Can someone please explain what the difference is (in terms of personal freedom) between having to show a passport vs. having to show multiple forms of identification that are all different from state to state? I mean given just the time it takes to figure out what you need if you don't cross regularly, wouldn't you feel better just knowing that your passport is the ONLY thing you need? Yes I know it's extra hassle for those in boarder towns.

This really just sounds like an efficiency thing. Since we DO NOT want a national ID system here (in order to preserve the powers of the states) isn't having a passport the only reasonable option? How will this slow things down on the border? If anything it should speed up crossing time as there won't be nearly as many questions about the validity of the various documents that are required.

Am I not making any sense here?

It was Ben Franklin who quoted "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Which I truly believe... I'm just not seeing it applied here unless someone can point it out. I also re-read my constitution and declaration of independence twice back to front to make sure that I wasn't missing anything.

P.S> I love these discussion on AO. :cheers: to all involved. Thanks for starting this LK-13!!! Oh, and yes, I had to jump into the unpopular side of this discussion even though you have my whole marker :bounce: I believe that these debates are essential for maintaining the freedoms that we all enjoy. :hail:

[Lohman446]

Well, I'm "imprisoned" in my office at work, but that pays for my homes.

In all seriousness, this woe is prompted by the requirement to have a passport to cross a national border?


All this woe is nothing more than internet chatter. If people truly felt the way the come off on the internet the military would need to be called in. :)

Of course if the internet were serious, many thirteen year old kids would drive their super sports car to my house to kick my butt too...

[SCpoloRicker]

Of course if the internet were serious,

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/7388/seriouscatcampaignxk7.jpg