Upgrading my knowledge on barrels

[dreadpirate]

Ok, so it's been a about 3 years since I played regularly, and I'm gradually getting back into the sport. I've noticed a few changes in what people seem to believe about barrels, and wouldlike to know if the theory behind their operation is at all solid.

3yrs ago:
The best barrels in terms of accuracy, were one-piece barrels that were a perfect match to paint size, all the way down the barrel, with a perfect, mirror-smooth polish, preferrably without anodizing. An example: a Lapco or Palmer's barrel matched to the size paint being shot. The ideal distance from breach to the beginning of the porting was considered to be 8-10", for best gas efficiency.

The next best barrel option, and the most flexible, was an interchangeable system, like the freak kit, which used either sleeves, or separately sized barrel backs, to match paint size, with a front tip large enough not to interfere with the ball, and meant only to bleed the air via porting. The barrel backs/inserts were rarely the idea 8-10", however.

Today:
The most popular barrels seem to be carbon fibre, with an interchangeable paint 'sizer', barely longer than the ball diameter, who's purpose seems to be to 'center' the ball in the barrel. As explained by a kid at my local shop, the ball travels down the barrel with an even cushion of air, therefor preventing random spin.

While this makes -some- sense in theory, since any contact with a barrel could theoretically induce spin, it sounds too much like the 90s, when everyone bought fancy venturi bolts, the idea being to apply air pressure evenly to the ball to prevent dimpling, and even out airflow around the ball as it travelled. It all turned out to be a bunch of bunk.

Am I wrong? Are stubby barrel sizers just a gimmick, or does that method really improve accuracy?

[secretweaponevan]

Ok, so it's been a about 3 years since I played regularly, and I'm gradually getting back into the sport. I've noticed a few changes in what people seem to believe about barrels, and wouldlike to know if the theory behind their operation is at all solid.

3yrs ago:
The best barrels in terms of accuracy, were one-piece barrels that were a perfect match to paint size, all the way down the barrel, with a perfect, mirror-smooth polish, preferrably without anodizing. An example: a Lapco or Palmer's barrel matched to the size paint being shot. The ideal distance from breach to the beginning of the porting was considered to be 8-10", for best gas efficiency.

The next best barrel option, and the most flexible, was an interchangeable system, like the freak kit, which used either sleeves, or separately sized barrel backs, to match paint size, with a front tip large enough not to interfere with the ball, and meant only to bleed the air via porting. The barrel backs/inserts were rarely the idea 8-10", however.

Today:
The most popular barrels seem to be carbon fibre, with an interchangeable paint 'sizer', barely longer than the ball diameter, who's purpose seems to be to 'center' the ball in the barrel. As explained by a kid at my local shop, the ball travels down the barrel with an even load of crap, therefor preventing random spin.

While this makes -some- sense in theory, since any contact with a barrel could theoretically induce spin, it sounds too much like the 90s, when everyone bought fancy venturi bolts, the idea being to apply air pressure evenly to the ball to prevent dimpling, and even out airflow around the ball as it travelled. It all turned out to be a bunch of bunk.

Am I wrong? Are stubby barrel sizers just a gimmick, or does that method really improve accuracy?

They'll prevent rollouts on closed-bolt markers, but that cushion of air sounds like... a load of crap. hehe. Just replaced "cushion of air" with "load of crap". Don't listen to kids at pro shops. They believe all of the marketing hype.

[Raven001]

My opinion based on nothing more than my own likes and dislikes. A one piece barrel in either .689 or .691, no more than 11 inches long with little porting, or just limited to two inches from the barrel end, is the best choice.

[Stayhuge]

What I have noticed in the 12 years that I have been playing, and the 15 different markers taht I have had, is that Mags are the most accurate, and I have found that my SS Freak kit has done wonders for me. However, I use different types of paint depending on the season and where I am playing, so versitile sizing is a must for me. I had a J&J Ceramic barrel on two if my markers, and I can swear by it. If you can match to that barrel, it is awesome, and cheap. Just my 2cents.

[warbeak2099]

Underbore underbore underbore. Cockerpunk has consistently shown that underboring results in better efficiency and no added breaks. I've been using my .684 Kaner no matter what and there's a significant difference.

In general, here's what I look for in a barrel:

-At least 8" of barrel before any porting
-14", best length for any position
-Long control bore, 6-8"
-Consistent and accurate bore size (unlike Freak inserts)

These new CF barrels with 1" inserts or backs are horribly inefficient. I would never ever shoot a barrel with a 1-2" control bore, that is plain stupid. If Redz Pepperstickz kits didn't have bores that were way too big, I'd be shooting one without a doubt. They have 8" backs, perfect! I'm currently looking into getting a newer style Kaner kit with the 7" backs. Way better than my Kaner with 5.75" backs.

And Stayhuge, I think you may be fooling yourself. Guns have little to no bearing on accuracy. A Mag is no more accurate than a DM/PM/EGO/etc and vice-versa.

[Stayhuge]

Could very well be the barrel. I think what I mean by accurate is that since Mags are so consistent, when I shoot 3-5 shots, they consistently hit the same place. None of my other markers have ever been that consistent. This is one of the 2 guns that I had a freak on, and those I found to be the best. So I guess Barrel makes a difference. Also, I agree with you on the Freaks insert inconsistency. I had the aluminum inserts initially, and the sizing was all messed up. I bought the Stainless ones, and They seem to be much better. They are a little heavier, but I think they make a big difference.

[dreadpirate]

Underbore underbore underbore. Cockerpunk has consistently shown that underboring results in better efficiency and no added breaks. I've been using my .684 Kaner no matter what and there's a significant difference.

In general, here's what I look for in a barrel:

-At least 8" of barrel before any porting
-14", best length for any position
-Long control bore, 6-8"
-Consistent and accurate bore size (unlike Freak inserts)

These new CF barrels with 1" inserts or backs are horribly inefficient. I would never ever shoot a barrel with a 1-2" control bore, that is plain stupid. If Redz Pepperstickz kits didn't have bores that were way too big, I'd be shooting one without a doubt. They have 8" backs, perfect! I'm currently looking into getting a newer style Kaner kit with the 7" backs. Way better than my Kaner with 5.75" backs.

And Stayhuge, I think you may be fooling yourself. Guns have little to no bearing on accuracy. A Mag is no more accurate than a DM/PM/EGO/etc and vice-versa.

I agree with most of what you're saying: 8" before any porting, at least 8" of control bore, is generally what I have looked for in the past, though manufacturers do not seem to like conforming to that standard. Generally speaking, I look for barrels with 8" of control bore before the porting, and a minimum amount of porting, meant only to bleed off the excess air smoothly. I use a 12" LAPCO big shot or autospirit for anything that matches them well, and bring my SS Freak kit as back up in case the paint is too small or too big.

Underboring sounds interesting... wouldn't it cause more risk of barrel breaks? Assuming the paint is tough enough, I would imagine it squeeze the ball back into a round shape, since I've noticed the paint at my local field tends to only contact the barrel in two spots, even when it's a fairly tight fit... perhaps I ought to try using my autospirit instead of the bigshot sometime.

[cockerpunk]

nope-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D39VpR7j1iE&feature=channel_page

[dreadpirate]

Could very well be the barrel. I think what I mean by accurate is that since Mags are so consistent, when I shoot 3-5 shots, they consistently hit the same place. None of my other markers have ever been that consistent. This is one of the 2 guns that I had a freak on, and those I found to be the best. So I guess Barrel makes a difference. Also, I agree with you on the Freaks insert inconsistency. I had the aluminum inserts initially, and the sizing was all messed up. I bought the Stainless ones, and They seem to be much better. They are a little heavier, but I think they make a big difference.

I've noticed on paintball forums, accuracy and consistency are often confused. In real firearms, the technical definitian for accuracy is usually the ability to center a shot grouping around the point being aimed at. Consistency is the ability of the gun/shooter to place shots in the same place, regardless of whether or not they strike the point aimed at.

A good way to determine how a gun needs adjusting is to fire a bunch of shots from the prone position (the steadiest position available), and then analyze you grouping. Remember to fire slowly, and aim each individual shot.

If your grouping size is large, in a dispersed 'cloud' around the bullseye, but centered over the bullseye, your accuracy is good, but your shot consistency is bad. Buy a better barrel. If your grouping size is small, but always in the same spot, your consistency is good, but your accuracy is bad. Fix your aiming technique first, then, if you are using a sight, and still missing the bullseye, adjust the sight to put your grouping on the bullseye. If, after getting a better barrel, you are drawing a line through the bullseye, your velocity is inconsistent, causing your shots to have poor consistency. Upgrade to HPA/N2 if you are using a CO2 gun, and buy a better regulator. If a better reg. still does not fix your velocity, it's the gun's fault, either live with it, or get a better gun.

Edit: I should add, of course, that regs do have a break-in period. Don't throw away your gun just because it isn't consistent right away, let the reg settle in for a few cases of paint or so.

[stoffa15]

I 've been reading all these posts and I'm not sure we all know whats important in being accurate.

most important
1. A clean marker.
Dirt,oil,grease and water affect the accuarcy of a paintball. a clean marker shoots alot straighter
2 Good paint.
your shooting a liquid filled gel capsil at 300 fps. Irregularities in the paint will make it do some funny things.Inspect your paint!!!!!!! Garbage in Garbage out!!!!!
3 A good regulator
regulators aren't too expensive, if you chrono your marker and your velocity is +- more than 10 your going to be high or low of your target. consistency goes a long way.

4 practice
know your marker. learn how the balls arch in flight.

5 be patient.
how many people do you see come to the field each week with something new on their marker???? how can you become comfortable with your marker if you keep changing it up every time you play

6 the barrel
underboring has been proven to be more air efficient then overboring. It doesn't really matter how much you spend on a barrel or barrel kit.you just need a smooth bore barrel that isn't ported so much it looks like swiss cheese.

7 your choice of marker.
enough said you already know that quality shoots straight :shooting:

[drg]

I've noticed on paintball forums, accuracy and consistency are often confused. In real firearms, the technical definitian for accuracy is usually the ability to center a shot grouping around the point being aimed at. Consistency is the ability of the gun/shooter to place shots in the same place, regardless of whether or not they strike the point aimed at.

A good way to determine how a gun needs adjusting is to fire a bunch of shots from the prone position (the steadiest position available), and then analyze you grouping. Remember to fire slowly, and aim each individual shot.

If your grouping size is large, in a dispersed 'cloud' around the bullseye, but centered over the bullseye, your accuracy is good, but your shot consistency is bad. Buy a better barrel. If your grouping size is small, but always in the same spot, your consistency is good, but your accuracy is bad. Fix your aiming technique first, then, if you are using a sight, and still missing the bullseye, adjust the sight to put your grouping on the bullseye. If, after getting a better barrel, you are drawing a line through the bullseye, your velocity is inconsistent, causing your shots to have poor consistency. Upgrade to HPA/N2 if you are using a CO2 gun, and buy a better regulator. If a better reg. still does not fix your velocity, it's the gun's fault, either live with it, or get a better gun.

Edit: I should add, of course, that regs do have a break-in period. Don't throw away your gun just because it isn't consistent right away, let the reg settle in for a few cases of paint or so.

There's a reason for this. Paintball (the projectile) precision is relatively low, so judging actual accuracy is difficult and primarily dependent on the paintballs themselves. Most quality barrels are at a point where they can hold the accuracy equation to a standard, so the real variation to look at that we CAN control significantly is the consistency of the shot (velocity). This is also the reason why short-back barrel kits see such wide use; in practice they don't have an effect on accuracy.

In paintball to a large degree, accuracy IS consistency. Even with pumps and one-shot kills, you want the gun consistent with the last ball shot out of it.

Generally speaking, with regard to barrels:

Accuracy - Depends on manufacturing quality, which encompasses barrel finish and straightness. Most quality barrels are comparable in accuracy. Paint quality is the major determining factor.

Consistency - Depends on bore sizing (underboring for best consistency). Quality of regulation figures in here, as does gun quality and state of tune and maintenance.

Efficiency - Depends on control bore length, with the old ~10" figure still considered optimal. Most barrels do not have this much unported length, but manufacturers have moved to longer control bores. Marker operation obviously figures in here.

Sound signature - Depends on porting pattern and length. Gun operation of course figures in here as well.

Ergonomics - Mostly personal preferences by definition, has to do with barrel design, length, materials, etc. Difficult to quantify these things; generally whatever you like better is the correct choice.

[cockerpunk]

in all my testing of barrels - i say forget the barrel.

get a decent .685 one piece, and buy NICE paint. thats the best way to improve accuracy if you even can at all.

[dreadpirate]

in all my testing of barrels - i say forget the barrel.

get a decent .685 one piece, and buy NICE paint. thats the best way to improve accuracy if you even can at all.

I tend to disregard paint, simply because the majority of fields I play at (CT, MI, and IL so far) don't allow BYOP anyway, and usually only have one brand to choose from. It seems the days are gone when I could go to my local field and have my choice between 'junky', 'ok', and marbelizer. Now it's "X field's custom paint, with [insert color here] fill, so you can't shoot it anywhere else!" Although I noticed one of the nearby fields just started allowing BYOP for the speedball field only. They still make me use their paint if I want to play in the woods, which with very few speedballers around most weekends, means I'm buying their paint anyway.

But I agree, in situations where I can bring my own paint, which has not happened for me since 2000, I go out and get the highest quality, small bore paint possible, and use my .685 microshot barrel... which has yet to be used since I purchased it.

As far as consistency, I'm still waiting for a gun to come out with a built-in chrono on the barrel that automatically adjusts input pressure to maintain velocity at a user-set value.

I suppose all of this begs the next question: what are good, high-quality paintballs these days? The last time I bothered to look, marbelizer was about the only high-quality paint around.

[gunangel]

yup underboring doesn't break any more balls, if they are going to break they will break no matter what size you use (we had a bad batch of nelsons, with a 695 the balls were still breaking, even with a 688 it was still breaking roughly in the same spot).

i would say getting one piece, non-ported, bores would be the the most accurate you can get barrel wise other than using an apex (which if you match it right will give you an almost linear shot). other than that it is getting a really broken in consistent regulator. Some people quip about the material etc, but that's still something that's still up in the air.

nelson usually makes decent paint, chances of them breaking in the marker are low, but chances of them breaking on people easily is also slightly low.

the self adjusting chronoing barrel idea has merit...that may be a fun project :) two sets of eyes, a board to control the dwell in .1ms increments depending on the chrono calculated from the time it takes to pass each eye. setting parameters may be difficult because ball breaks would have to be taken into consideration...this could also prove the acceleration theory as well...

[drg]

As far as consistency, I'm still waiting for a gun to come out with a built-in chrono on the barrel that automatically adjusts input pressure to maintain velocity at a user-set value.

While this sounds good in theory, this idea is actually a non-starter. Why? All guns are designed to shoot at a consistent velocity as it is. Variations in paintballs and the gun's operation result in velocity fluctuations; you cannot account for this by varying regulator pressure. A given paintball's velocity is not related to the velocity of the next paintball in any way in normal, typical paintgun operation, so you will actually introduce an unwanted variable into the velocity equation.

For active compensation to actually work, you need to be monitoring a variable that actually has an effect on the velocity of the paintball such as input pressure or battery voltage in the case of mQ valved guns, then compensate with another variable, such as dwell. Of course it will only work if the measured variable is undergoing a predictable change.


I suppose all of this begs the next question: what are good, high-quality paintballs these days? The last time I bothered to look, marbelizer was about the only high-quality paint around.

RPS Ultra Evil, Nelson Anarchy, Empire Inertia, Draxxus Hellfire ... other people will chime in

[Frizzle Fry]

i would say getting one piece, non-ported, bores would be the the most accurate you can get barrel wise other than using an apex (which if you match it right will give you an almost linear shot).

How can non-ported barrels increase accuracy? I'm no expert on the physics of paintball trajectories, but I'm an avid shooter and I've relied on porting in the barrels of my pistols and rifles for both increased accuracy and decreased muzzlejump. I've even got a Henry Vang modified barrel on one of my Brownings that's ported in such a way that it tightens the spread, increases accuracy and quiets the report without lengthening the barrel or tightening the bore like a choke.

From what I understand, it's random release of gasses that can throw off the trajectory of a slug or grouping of shot when it reaches the end of the barrel. Porting allows for a small release of those gasses while the projectile(s) are still being guided by the barrel, so that it is propelled in a more true path... I'd assume the same would be true of a paintball, especially when the propellant is significantly less powerful?

I've loved the barrel tests I've seen, but I'd like to see a little more about porting for accuracy/jump, and the use of muzzle brakes in paintball applications.


the self adjusting chronoing barrel idea has merit...that may be a fun project :) two sets of eyes, a board to control the dwell in .1ms increments depending on the chrono calculated from the time it takes to pass each eye. setting parameters may be difficult because ball breaks would have to be taken into consideration...this could also prove the acceleration theory as well...

Didn't the PVI Shocker (first electro) have a built-in chronograph that displayed on a screen? I know it wasn't self-adjusting, but I believe it was planned to have a "lockout" feature so you couldn't play hot. Doesn't matter because SP nixed the idea entirely and did their on thing ( :rolleyes: ) but it woulda been cool.

[malJohann]

While this sounds good in theory, this idea is actually a non-starter.

That was my first thought too. This is more likely to have erratic results than have consistent results. The conditions under which the current paintball is being fired is different to those under which the next one will be fired. The only way IMO to do this would be through precise control of the firing of the current paintball.

So, basically you'd need say 30 eyes in a line down the length of the barrel which monitor acceleration and speed of the ball to control the dwell of the current firing cycle in a dynamic way. Obviously the biggest stumbling block here would be the speed and precision with which your solenoid can control the flow of gas.

The rest is up to micro processors and the programming thereof. For utmost control you'd likely need ambient temperature and humidity sensors too. Combine all of this with a learning processor and hey presto, you have an overpriced but consistent marker! Of course the price would come down over time.

[dreadpirate]

I was thinking it could use one chrono, or a series of eyes, whichever, and record each subsequent value into a 10-shot circular buffer. The high and low value gets thrown out, the remaining 8 values averaged. It could be made to ignore any input that does not fall within a typical +/- range for the current average, thus hopefully ignoring broken paint. The amount of air per shot would be controlled by adding or subtracting a single increment following any shot which results in the velocity average being outside say +/- 1 FPS from the value set by the user. Better yet, make the 'dead zone' user-programmable, with suggested bands for 'Practice paint', 'Rec. Paint', and 'Tournament' paint, based on the typical fill variation found in each quality level. This would help alleviate chasing of the gauges, so to speak.

Yeah, it would cost $$$, but I'm sure -someone- would buy it.

[drg]

I was thinking it could use one chrono, or a series of eyes, whichever, and record each subsequent value into a 10-shot circular buffer. The high and low value gets thrown out, the remaining 8 values averaged. It could be made to ignore any input that does not fall within a typical +/- range for the current average, thus hopefully ignoring broken paint. The amount of air per shot would be controlled by adding or subtracting a single increment following any shot which results in the velocity average being outside say +/- 1 FPS from the value set by the user. Better yet, make the 'dead zone' user-programmable, with suggested bands for 'Practice paint', 'Rec. Paint', and 'Tournament' paint, based on the typical fill variation found in each quality level. This would help alleviate chasing of the gauges, so to speak.

Yeah, it would cost $$$, but I'm sure -someone- would buy it.

There is no way for this to work because during a normal, in-game situation, shot-to-shot variation is not caused by a predictable changing variable, they are caused by slight differences in the gun's operation and, most significantly, the paint. Neither of these things can be compensated for because they are essentially random.

You could use it to set initial velocity but after that you would want to lock the reg, as it would introduce unwanted instability.

[cockerpunk]

what you guys are missing is that barrel doesn't really do much. it sets up the initial conditions for the flight of the ball, thats it. it turns out that to have those initial conditions actually effect the paintballs flight and down range performance, it needs to be a truly ****ty barrel. like not even finished on the ID ****ty barrel.

the largest force on the paintball is simply due to the paintball traveling though air, which is something you can't deal with when it comes to equipment choice.

means your barrel makes little if any difference in any bore, porting pattern, or whatever, doesn't effect the flight of the ball much because the air itself has the largest effect on the paintball, much more then any initial condition can do.

[drg]

Not relatively still air, the ball itself is a larger influence; poor grouping and flyers are ball-related. you could shoot in a vacuum and a poor lumpy ball will still fly crappy compared to a nice round one.

[cockerpunk]

Not relatively still air, the ball itself is a larger influence; poor grouping and flyers are ball-related.

show me

and to the edit - show me.

[drg]

show me

Eh? Show you what? That an unbalanced ball won't fly just as well as a balanced one?

If you don't notice that better paint flies better ... I dunno what to tell you. Paint choice makes a HUGE difference.

You're really stretching a little too far in this "mythbusting" things to a point where you are making nonsensical, false claims just for impact.

[cockerpunk]

Eh? Show you what? That an unbalanced ball won't fly just as well as a balanced one?

If you don't notice that better paint flies better ... I dunno what to tell you. Paint choice makes a HUGE difference.

hey im the one who said paint is the biggest factor, i would find a nice tiny bore barrel and forget about it. nothing you can do barring changing the projectile itself. air has the largest effect on the paintball.

[drg]

You are saying two different things, paint IS an equipment choice.


hey im the one who said paint is the biggest factor, i would find a nice tiny bore barrel and forget about it. nothing you can do barring changing the projectile itself. air has the largest effect on the paintball.

I think the internal balance of the paintball has a large effect on a cleanly fired, relatively round paintball. Case in point is the flyer ball or separated paintball, it experiences severe deviation without severe difference in shape or shell condition.

[cockerpunk]

nope, the airflow over the paintball is much larger then anything happening inside the paintball. essentially nothing is happening inside the paintball while forces perpendicular to the flight path measured in pounds are dancing all around the back of the paintball.

buy a decent small bore barrel, and spend the rest on paint. nothing is going to change your accuracy on a fundamental scale until we decide to shoot a really crappy lightweight semi-spheriod.

balance? ever seen a paintball that wasn't balanced? misshapen, of course, but thats due to airflow over the none sphere. its not a balance issue, its the airflow issue.

[drg]

ever seen a paintball that wasn't balanced?

All the time. don't tell me you haven't?

[cockerpunk]

All the time. don't tell me you haven't?

what is misballanced? you measure the center of mass on a paintball? you get a bunch of little scales and measure the weight distribution? how can you claim to know the center of mass in paintball filled with a liquid?

its a sphere ... you might see what looks like an "unbalanced" sphere because it rolls when you set it on one side. but that isn't due to weight issues, that due to shape issues.

and shape issues cause the vortex shedding to not be random. and that causes inaccuracy.

[drg]

No, a separated paintball can be round but clearly imbalanced. It's not that hard to see.

Separated paint just doesn't fly as well as unseparated paint of the same type and roundness. You can also have two nice round balls that differ in accuracy.

Just because nothing is "going on" inside of a paintball, doesn't mean that what's inside cannot affect the flight of the ball. Press a weight in one side of a reball and it'll become dramatically less acurate.

[cockerpunk]

No, a separated paintball can be round but clearly imbalanced. It's not that hard to see.

Separated paint just doesn't fly as well as unseparated paint of the same type and roundness.

Just because nothing is "going on" inside of a paintball, doesn't mean that what's inside cannot affect the flight of the ball. Press a weight in one side of a reball and it'll become dramatically less acurate.

ok so besides 9 moth old none mixed up paint ...

a miss weighted paintball will fly like a weather vane. meaning, the heavy part will lead and the light part will follow. this weight distribution will actually destroy spin. this is part of the reason why the FS round work, because the heavy part leads.

[drg]

ok so besides 9 moth old none mixed up paint ...

a miss weighted paintball will fly like a weather vane. meaning, the heavy part will lead and the light part will follow. this weight distribution will actually destroy spin. this is part of the reason why the FS round work, because the heavy part leads.

However it also leads to begin with. you have no control over the orientation an unbalanced ball is loaded. Try shooting a FS round sideways, backwards and forward and see how big the grouping is. You will get deflection and it will be unpredictable unless you orient the same each time.

Paint can separate fairly quickly depending on its quality to begin with.

[cockerpunk]

However it also leads to begin with. you have no control over the orientation an unbalanced ball is loaded. Try shooting a FS round sideways, backwards and forward and see how big the grouping is.

is a sphere, it doesn't have a tail like FS round. so thats not a concern. a sphere can rotate on this kind of scale (+/- 180 degrees) without effecting target location. it will stabilize out very easily without effecting much at all.

[drg]

is a sphere, it doesn't have a tail like FS round. so thats not a concern. a sphere can rotate on this kind of scale (+/- 180 degrees) without effecting target location. it will stabilize out very easily without effecting much at all.

Nah, you will see a significant difference in groupings between unbalanced and balanced balls. It won't balance out spin and deflectionary motions within one turn or half a turn.

[cockerpunk]

Nah, you will see a significant difference in groupings between unbalanced and balanced balls. It won't balance out spin and deflectionary motions within one turn or half a turn.

you made the claim - show me.

figure out a way to make a nice paintball off balance without effecting its external shape, and shoot them and show me.

its round dude, how simple does it need to be? all paintballs spin, on the scale of spin they typically see however, there is pretty much no effect. whats an extra 180 degrees?

[drg]

you made the claim - show me.

figure out a way to make a nice paintball off balance without effecting its external shape, and shoot them and show me.

Actually you made the claim that no equipment-based choice can affect accuracy, of which paint is an equipment choice. You also made the claim that air is the largest influence, so it is incumbent on you to demonstrate that. This is all based on your original post.


its round dude, how simple does it need to be? all paintballs spin, on the scale of spin they typically see however, there is pretty much no effect. whats an extra 180 degrees?

It's not simply an extra half turn. It will take many turns to stabilize, if it ever does at all, as we know balls can have quite a bit of random rotation as they leave the barrel. Anyone who has seen a two-toned paintball in flight knows there is significant rotation during flight.

[cockerpunk]

Actually you made the claim that no equipment-based choice can affect accuracy, of which paint is an equipment choice. You also made the claim that air is the largest influence, so it is incumbent on you to demonstrate that. This is all based on your original post.



It's not simply an extra half turn. It will take many turns to stabilize, if it ever does at all, as we know balls can have quite a bit of random rotation as they leave the barrel. Anyone who has seen a two-toned paintball in flight knows there is significant rotation during flight.

if you consider paint to be an equipment choice, then fine your right. i dont personally because paint is more often shoved down my throat no matter how crappy it is at FPO fields.

so you agree there is significant rotation, then why is a bit more any issue? it rotates, big whoop?

i find the whole debate pointless anyway, i have shot 6 month old paint that wasn't separated so the weight distribution point is pretty weak anyway. the SHAPE of the paintball will change long before the fill will separate out. hell, the fill will leach out of the ball before it separates too. so we are really talking about a pretty rare occurrence, that i doubt the OP is dealing with.

in conclusion: buy a small bore barrel. if you like consistency (which does not translate to XY accuracy very often) then get a two piece, if you like efficiency, get a one piece. then buy good paint. thats the best you can do without changing the projectile your shooting (like the FS rounds)

[dreadpirate]

I think I see what some of you are saying: the balance of the ball aside, if the energy imparted on the ball is the same, but there are small differences in mass from ball to ball, the departure velocity will be different, but the flight distance will be somewhat moderated by wind resistance: i.e. a heavier, slower ball will have the same momentum, but less loss to air resistance than a lighter, faster ball. The net result would be that the air resistance tends to have a moderating influence on flight distance.

The best way to regulate distance, and therefore trajectory, would be to measure measure pressure and firing cycle time for each shot, and then try and adjust it to keep it constant, but I am guessing most markers already have that pretty consistent.

[drg]

The best way to regulate distance, and therefore trajectory, would be to measure measure pressure and firing cycle time for each shot, and then try and adjust it to keep it constant, but I am guessing most markers already have that pretty consistent.

Exactly, guns are already set up to try to be consistent. Trying to actively change the operation of the marker is actually undesirable.

[dreadpirate]

I think I see what some of you are saying: the balance of the ball aside, if the energy imparted on the ball is the same, but there are small differences in mass from ball to ball, the departure velocity will be different, but the flight distance will be somewhat moderated by wind resistance: i.e. a heavier, slower ball will have the same momentum, but less loss to air resistance than a lighter, faster ball. The net result would be that the air resistance tends to have a moderating influence on flight distance.

The best way to regulate distance, and therefore trajectory, would be to measure measure pressure and firing cycle time for each shot, and then try and adjust it to keep it constant, but I am guessing most markers already have that pretty consistent.

Ok, so, I guess my conclusion from all this is that there is little out there that will give me any improvement over my current setup.

Currently, I have a bigshot (for sale btw), a bigshot with an Apex tip, an autospirit, and a SS freak kit as backup when the BYOP paint does not match one of the former. I use a crossfire preset 850psi tank.

I -am- thinking about getting an adjustable reg for the crossfire tank, since it seems from the graphs in the owner's manual that came with my gun, that 900-950 psi yields the most consistent velocity. Plus, I would like to try the whole rapid fire thing by swapping a lvl 7 in, in lieu of my lvl 10. Any suggestions?