RT on/off not very RT-ish...

[WARHEAD]

I just got set up with an RT on/off, which people on this forum (as well as a few mag owner friends) told me would help get me sweetspotting easier than with my ULT.

My normal setup is with a ULT and an 800psi Crossfire reg, which manages 19bps over the chronograph when sweetspotting.

When I put the RT on/off in the valve, I get absolutely no sweet spot. None at all. I can not even fire a burst... not even two shots. All it really seems to have done is make the trigger pull several times heavier.

I have read that this is normal and in order to have it behave reactively I need to shorten the on/off pin. Is this true? I have a spare RT on/off so it's not the end of the world if I go beyond repair with one of the pins, but I would like an idea of how slowly I should trim it down, using what (file, sandpaper, dremel) etc. and what exactly it would achieve.

Ideally, I would want a very effortless sweet-spot to be achievable, preferably in the 13bps range. Any help would be appreciated, thanks :)

[DamianTC]

higher tank output is going to be needed.

I use a 1000psi output tank and never got any RT with my ULT.

I am a bit confused. If you say your already getting 19bps and you can sweetspot the ULT, why are you wanting only 13bps with a RT on/off??

Given the numbers you have said with the two setups you have tried, I would stick with the ULT since you can already sweetspot without having to upgrade anything, and the ULT will give you a lighter trigger for single shots

[Wanta B Sniper]

If you really have your heart set on the RT on/off, rather than shortening the pin I advise getting an adjustable tank regulator. Your on/off needs more than 800 PSI to RT, each RT is different - Mine goes nuts at 800 PSI.

Other wise I'd stick to the ULT. Just spend some time experimenting with shims until it preforms more to your liking.

Also, if you do not have a LvL 10 then I advise getting that because it increases the amount of pressure needed to cycle the marker and that will help with the RT a lot.

[Mechanic79]

you're best off with a classic valve using the RT on/off. You must modify the on/off assembly. This will get you one sweet mechanical! :headbang: Google "I'll be your huckleberry shingo" and you will find the answers! reactivity would be the LEAST of my worries. Think, light and fast!

[Wanta B Sniper]

This would be the link to which Mechanic was referring to: http://www.pblegion.com/showthread.php?t=818 Thanks for the link, I shall bookmark that.

But I believe that WARHEAD is trying to get it to RT, not get an electro-like trigger pull.

[Spider-TW]

I just got set up with an RT on/off, which people on this forum (as well as a few mag owner friends) told me would help get me sweetspotting easier than with my ULT.

My normal setup is with a ULT and an 800psi Crossfire reg, which manages 19bps over the chronograph when sweetspotting.

When I put the RT on/off in the valve, I get absolutely no sweet spot. None at all. I can not even fire a burst... not even two shots. All it really seems to have done is make the trigger pull several times heavier.

I have read that this is normal and in order to have it behave reactively I need to shorten the on/off pin. Is this true? I have a spare RT on/off so it's not the end of the world if I go beyond repair with one of the pins, but I would like an idea of how slowly I should trim it down, using what (file, sandpaper, dremel) etc. and what exactly it would achieve.

Ideally, I would want a very effortless sweet-spot to be achievable, preferably in the 13bps range. Any help would be appreciated, thanks :)

The easiest, but more expensive way to shorten the pin is to buy one or more of the shorter ones from AGD. The 0.73x pin is usually safe with the standard top orings. People have certainly gone much shorter, but I usually start having reset trouble with the 0.712 pin and standard orings. You should be thinking in ULT shim dimensions, using a shorter pin that is 0.005 to 0.030 inches shorter than the stock 0.750 pin.

I don't think you can get reliable rate control without an adjustable tank. Mags really like 19bps. To go over takes a lot of input pressure. That seems to be the rate that goes with the RT effect and the bolt, spring, and reg running around 280 - 300 fps (a natural frequency). To go lower, you're cutting back on the supply to the regulator. On mine it has always been a pretty narrow pressure band between starving and 19 bps. Not hard to set on a bottle adjustment, but I don't know how you would control it otherwise.

I prefer to have my sweetspot with some effort involved. It's like having a mode selector. When you think about it, you just reach for it; otherwise you're just plinking away. That comes anyway when you start running below 19 bps. Trying to RT around 12 bps can be a little difficult to maintain. Effortless RT will just get you into trouble, like judge-punched... :rolleyes:

[Flatliner333]

Sorry if I look stupid but I want to try the RT effect and I want to make sure I am getting the correct on/off. Also are there only 3 types from AGD ( RT , ULT , and stock or classic) ?

Is this what I should be buying.

http://store.airgundesignsusa.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.prodInfo&productID=399&categoryID=23

[eXo_oUtSiDeR]

yup thats the one

[Flatliner333]

Thanx. :headbang:

[Mechanic79]

If you're looking for an adjustable tank, I have a4500/88 Nitro Duck Tuff Skin Adjustable reg., in hydro with cover and nipple cap for $120 shipped. The adjustable reg will help you tune in your RT style. :shooting:

[Flatliner333]

Was the RT on/off in the retro valve the main thing that makes the Automag RT so fast. Are there other inovations on the gun besides this that contributes to it's greatness? Was it suggested by AGD to run high PSI on the factory built RT to get optimal performance.I bought a used Mag with a Ule body , Inteliframe and an X Valve with ULT and a lvl X bolt. I havent counted the shims on the ULT and it didnt come with any extras.I still have my old Nitro Duck tank with 1000 psi output and I am hoping when I install the RT on/off I ordered I can get the same effect as the factory RT. :headbang:

[Watcher]

@ everyone who says you need an adjustable/higher output tank I used to be able to sweetspot my RT Pro 100% stock with a Crossfire 68/4500 tank outputting 800psi well into the 20bps range.


However, once I got a lvl10 bolt now it seems not to sweetspot as well. It is harder to control and initiate.

The lvl10 uses a lot of air in it's function, idk why but it seems to rob the on/off of pressure.

You don't need a higher output tank, persay, if the valve is tuned right. It won't hurt though.

And it is also true that every valve is different. For example, my RT valve I can sweetspot like mad dryfiring, and it will go even faster with paint!
My friend's emag valve is impossible to sweetspot with no paint, but once paint is in it look out :shooting:


I'd say if the ULT works for you then keep it, you can always adjust the ULT to react differently.

[Wanta B Sniper]

Yea, every valve is different. With a preset PE 48/3k I could sweet spot my RT Pro at around 13 or 14 BPS. Seemed to be much better with the Level 10 as well.

Flatliner33:
Other than the RT on/off the RT style valves also have the ability to recharge fully 26 times a second.... http://automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=34429 <----- Read through Tom's posts in Deep Blue, very cool data!

[Flatliner333]

Cool thread I felt like Forest Gump trying to comprehend it all. I am sure if " The Man " said it then you can take it to the bank. :headbang:

[Wanta B Sniper]

When you asked what other special features the RT valves had I meant for you to see these graphs specifically. Click on the graphs to make them larger.
AGD RT 950 PSI Input Pressure, graph spans 1 second:
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/8251/retro950ap.th.jpg (http://img33.imageshack.us/my.php?image=retro950ap.jpg)
This graph shows two shots from a RT valved marker, two rapid fire shots and valve FULLY recharges between shots.

Angle 800 PSI Input Pressure, graph spans 1 second:
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/9766/ang800fp.th.jpg (http://img30.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ang800fp.jpg)
This graph shows an Angle rapid firing, notice the drop in pressure, doesn't happen with the RT above.

Angle 800 PSI Input Pressure, graph spans 10 seconds:
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/675/ang800mp.th.jpg (http://img30.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ang800mp.jpg)
In the first graph you can see that the RT valve recharges almost instantly, here you can see that even over 10 seconds the regulator on the Angle still hasn't fully recharged. THAT is another special feature of RT valves, and THAT is what allows them to fire so fast.
:shooting:


The factory suggests that you run it at around 700-800 PSI.

[dreadpirate]

I just got set up with an RT on/off, which people on this forum (as well as a few mag owner friends) told me would help get me sweetspotting easier than with my ULT.

My normal setup is with a ULT and an 800psi Crossfire reg, which manages 19bps over the chronograph when sweetspotting.

When I put the RT on/off in the valve, I get absolutely no sweet spot. None at all. I can not even fire a burst... not even two shots. All it really seems to have done is make the trigger pull several times heavier.

I have read that this is normal and in order to have it behave reactively I need to shorten the on/off pin. Is this true? I have a spare RT on/off so it's not the end of the world if I go beyond repair with one of the pins, but I would like an idea of how slowly I should trim it down, using what (file, sandpaper, dremel) etc. and what exactly it would achieve.

Ideally, I would want a very effortless sweet-spot to be achievable, preferably in the 13bps range. Any help would be appreciated, thanks :)


Here (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=67604) is a link that may help you ensure that everything is in specification.

And if you have not already gone here (http://www.zakvetter.com/pages/paintballs/automag_info/rapidfire/rf_disclaimer.html) you may want to take a look, it is a fairly complete how-to as well as explanation of how rapidfiring works. This guy is sweetspotting around 34 bps if I recall correctly, but all you have to do to lower the sweetspot ROF is lower the assumed adjustable tank's output pressure, or apply greater pressure with your finger (lighter=faster, heavier=slower) Just to reassure, he also reminds the reader that the automag valves are rated for 3000 psi input max, so putting in even up to 1400 psi will not cause damage, though going to a braided steel air line is recommended for pressures over 850 psi.

[MKing]

I've wondered, does running remote have an effect on rapid fire? I am just thinking that with a longer hose, the tank reg may have to work a little harder and there there is more room for hose flex.
Has anyone done tests?

[Wanta B Sniper]

It shouldn't make much difference because the remote is at the same pressure as what is coming out of your tank and should be recharged just as quickly as your tank reg recharges. Tests would be interesting to see though.