RTing with a lvl10

[Watcher]

Ok, my RT Pro valve was wicked awesome with a lvl7 bolt. I could sweetspot the trigger above 20bps without paint and more with paint out of a Crossfire fixed output 800psi tank.

It was a total beast!

I recently got a lvl10 bolt on it, and now it refuses to RT. I can't even get a 2 shot burst with or without paint!

Now I know the lvl10 uses more air, it is just it's nature. But, since it has a harder return spring you have to up the pressure. Upping the pressure should make the on/off want to reset faster/harder, which would make RTing easier, right?

So why is it the opposite?

It seems like it made the trigger pull lighter! Made it so I can walk the mag easier and it seems to short stroke less, but why?


If you argue that the tank doesn't have a fast enough recharge rate for the valve, then why does that make a difference in the on/off pin's reset pressure?


I can still shoot her plenty fast for my taste, but if I want to show off and let out a string of " :spit_take :wow: " I can't anymore...


The valve I have uses the one top on/off o-ring, so I can't ULT it unless I get it drilled and I really don't want to do that.

[Spider-TW]

Something I've never checked that would make a difference; check the rim diameters between your level 7 and your level 10. A larger diameter bolt rim would change the overlap between the on/off pin and the sear edge, effectively "lengthening" your on/off pin. I've always assumed all of them were the same diameter.

With the level 10 using a little more air dry firing, could it be hitting the limit on your tank flow? Have you tried it with paint?

Out of curiosity, which bumper are you using?

[Wanta B Sniper]

Interesting, mine was the opposite. WIth the LvL 7 I got some reactiveness, but once I dropped in the LvL 10 I could RT until my finger got too sore to hold the trigger anymore! But it also made my trigger lighter, like yours, I can almost walk it now.

[TeamBob]

my dad has an Rt that does the same thing. He had AGD put in a lvl 10 at the amature open years ago, and since then, his has RTed either. I have 1 that i am going to try in the next few days and see what happens...

[Wanta B Sniper]

Assuming that you have the longest spring in, try switching to the short, LvL 7 spring and see what happens.

[Watcher]

Something I've never checked that would make a difference; check the rim diameters between your level 7 and your level 10. A larger diameter bolt rim would change the overlap between the on/off pin and the sear edge, effectively "lengthening" your on/off pin. I've always assumed all of them were the same diameter.

With the level 10 using a little more air dry firing, could it be hitting the limit on your tank flow? Have you tried it with paint?

Out of curiosity, which bumper are you using?


The diameters are the same, I remember because I had an issue fitting the bolt into my body ring as I somehow aquired an SFL lvl10 and needed to grind the tip down. I put a Mic' to everything and excepting the nose of the bolt all measurements match the lvl7 bolt.


Just shot it with paint last weekend, it won't sweetspot. I'll tell you the lvl10 is a life saver though, the paint we were shooting was horrid!

Using a RT bumper, but why would that matter? I mean, besides the classic bumpers.




Assuming that you have the longest spring in, try switching to the short, LvL 7 spring and see what happens.


I'll try that, but that would make the lvl10 less effective, correct?

[Wanta B Sniper]

Yes, it will reduce the effectiveness of the LvL 10 but it will still do it's job, and it will take less pressure to make it work = better RT.

[Watcher]

I'll give it a shot, but idk if I'll want to lose my softness.

The paint I was shooting last weekend was being squeezed in between the paddles of my 98s cyclone feed... smooshy stuff.


Edit:
Put in the lighter spring. If it made any difference my human fingers could not tell.

But, when I stuck my finger in the breach damn did it give me a pinch!

I'm sticking with the strongest spring.



With the lvl10 I'm using the largest carrier that doesn't leak, and I'm using 2 shims...

[Timber_Ghost]

Add one more shim than you need so that the gun leaks. Then just take out that last shim and run it over a metal file to thin it in very small incriments until the leak stops. That should give you more reactivity. I did that with my Tac 1 and i get some rediculous reactivity out of it even with the ULT kit.

[Watcher]

Add one more shim than you need so that the gun leaks. Then just take out that last shim and run it over a metal file to thin it in very small incriments until the leak stops. That should give you more reactivity. I did that with my Tac 1 and i get some rediculous reactivity out of it even with the ULT kit.

I would try it if I had another shim.

My kit didn't come with shims or a backing washer, Tunaman sent me 3 shims and a washer to get it working, and at LL2 I handed off a shim to a fellow 'Maggot who's lvl10 was having issues.


But I think GRimm has a x-valve parts kit with some shims, maybe I'll steal one.



Any idea why that works? I thought the shims were just to tell the bolt when it can vent.


Any recommendatins on how to file it? Its not like it can stay on a table when I pass a file on it, and holding it would tear my fingers up...

[Spider-TW]

The diameters are the same, I remember because I had an issue fitting the bolt into my body ring as I somehow aquired an SFL lvl10 and needed to grind the tip down. I put a Mic' to everything and excepting the nose of the bolt all measurements match the lvl7 bolt.

Did you measure the length from the back face of the bolt to the lip?

Is the shape of the ridge around the bolt lip the same on both bolts?

If everything on the marker is the same, the difference should be in the lip somewhere.

[athomas]

The reactive trigger is caused by the difference between the force of the pull and the force of the return. The force of the pull increases slightly in the level 10 due to the higher operating pressure of the chamber. Even after the shot is fired, the residual pressure remaining in the chamber is considerably higher. The input pressure remains the same, so the differential force between the input and the chamber is reduced. Therefore the reduced differential pressure combined with the increased trigger pull, reduces the overal ability of the valve to become reactive using a level 10 bolt.

Using a short spring lowers the operating pressure and you can gain some of the reaction back. When testing, remember to lower the velocity setting to compensate or your chamber pressure will be too high. This will make it feel like it will pinch balls when you stick your finger in the chamber, but if the velocity is reduced back to the alllow the proper operating velocity it will be fine. The level 7 spring still works quite well as an antichop device when properly setup.

Adding a shim or two between the rt on-off halve helps with the reaction. It has the same effect as shortening the on-off pin.

[Spider-TW]

The reactive trigger is caused by the difference between the force of the pull and the force of the return. The force of the pull increases slightly in the level 10 due to the higher operating pressure of the chamber. Even after the shot is fired, the residual pressure remaining in the chamber is considerably higher. The input pressure remains the same, so the differential force between the input and the chamber is reduced. Therefore the reduced differential pressure combined with the increased trigger pull, reduces the overal ability of the valve to become reactive using a level 10 bolt.
That is true. However, I thought dry firing a level 10 should keep it from retaining a high pressure, so I kind of expected he would have better reactivity without paint. :confused:

[Watcher]

Did you measure the length from the back face of the bolt to the lip?

Is the shape of the ridge around the bolt lip the same on both bolts?

If everything on the marker is the same, the difference should be in the lip somewhere.

Yes, it is all the same.



@ athomas

I DID forget to lower the velocity when I switched springs. I will have to try it again.
Only I don't know when I'll have access to paint and a chrono next.

Will shims fit in the RT on/off?


Also, I understand comepletely what you explained though I am a tad confused now as to why my trigger pull got lighter. :confused:

[athomas]

Will shims fit in the RT on/off?


Also, I understand comepletely what you explained though I am a tad confused now as to why my trigger pull got lighter. :confused:Yes, the shims fit the RT on-off perfectly.

The trigger pull can still get lighter because of the reduced forward force acting on the sear. When you pull the trigger, quite often the movement of the sear actually pushes the bolt back ever so slightly. By reducing the force on the bolt, you also reduce the amount of force it takes to push it back and also the friction caused by the movement.

[athomas]

That is true. However, I thought dry firing a level 10 should keep it from retaining a high pressure, so I kind of expected he would have better reactivity without paint. :confused:You are correct. There should be less residual pressure in the chamber. I don't know how much air is left when dry firing or if it completely empties. I don't have an answer for that one right now.

[Timber_Ghost]

No idea why the filing works.... I put on a leather glove and held shim down onto the file with my thumb. It worked without losing any skin. :D

[Watcher]

I still can't understand why I lost my reactivity.

Even with different internal operating pressures and springs and such, I shouldn't lose reactivity of the trigger as the same pressure is exerted down onto the on/off pin.

Even if the dump chamber's pressure is inscreased, the spring tension was increased so it shouldn't effect the trigger weight too drastically.


The thing that confuses me is how drastic the change was. How can it go from 23cps RT to nothing RT simply by changing the bolt system?
If it went from like 23 to 12 ok, no biggy, but 23 to 0 needs explaining.


All I got so far are fixes, and whether they work or not I will have to test soon and thanks to all the user input, but I really need to know why...

[athomas]

I still can't understand why I lost my reactivity.

Even with different internal operating pressures and springs and such, I shouldn't lose reactivity of the trigger as the same pressure is exerted down onto the on/off pin..The same pressure is exerted down on the top of the pin, but there is more exerted up on the bottom of the pin from the higher chamber pressure. The result is less differential pressure. The one constant is the mass of the sear assembly. With less resulting forces working on the sear assembly and the mass not changing, the smaller resulting differential forces aren't high enough to provide a high enough positive feedback force to move both the sear assembly and your finger.

[Spider-TW]

I would think you should still be close to getting RT, even though you have lost some to chamber pressure.

If this was your well used level 7 bolt, perhaps the finish on the lip where the sear rides is more polished than the new level 10 (?). I'm not saying that is all the difference, but maybe a place where you could make it up.

You could always try a 0.723 pin. (0.728? I never remember the last digit on those.)

[athomas]

The original emag pin was 0.725".

[Spider-TW]

The original emag pin was 0.725".
I looked mine up. I bought the 0.728 RT pin and the 0.712 emag pin. The emag pin was too short except with the quad o-ring, which makes my ep mag happy. The 0.728 has always been pretty harmless in some of my classic and x valves, but I wasn't trying to RT them, just pneu them.

Shimming an RT on/off always seemed unpredictable to me, but it would make a good test at least. I was thinking about making a washer that sits on top of the on/off top, under the o-rings. That would be less sensitive to thread adjustments in the RT body and the thumb screw.

[Watcher]

Sorry to up a dead thread, but I am really thinking of experiementing with this soon.


The major question I have is, why would adding a lvl10 shim make it react more?

[Ando]

You talking about adding shims to your RT on/off or Lvl 10?

[Spider-TW]

Sorry to up a dead thread, but I am really thinking of experiementing with this soon.


The major question I have is, why would adding a lvl10 shim make it react more?

Shimming or pin mods don't make the valve more reactive in the way higher input pressure will. They make it less work for the pressure you have to push back on the trigger, instead of pushing on seal and sear surfaces.

The lower the pressure the tank reg is set at, the faster it needs to be. I think there are more capable (you can read that both ways) standard regs available now than when the RT came out. Although we can't seem to keep more than a few manufacturers in business at one time. :(

You could try a No.8 brass washer on top, like this one (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=246002). You can sand it down if it is too thick.

[AnthonyDStone]

Your Level Ten Is Probably NOT Tuned/Broken In Properly.The Friction on the Level Ten Carrier O Ring Will Lessen as It Breaks In.Tune It The Way these guys Told you to and Then Give It Some time.Level Tens Need To Be Cycled Around 500 Times Before the Oring Truly Mates To The Rest of the Parts.If Nothing You Could Try the Next Size Up Carrier to reduce friction.
LVLX Will Almost always Stop Balls From Being Chopped,Regardless of spring,You Just Won't Be Able to turn the velocity Up Beyond 270~with the shorter "LVL7"Spring.I personally NEVER Use the Red Spring.Hope somthing I Said Helps! :p

Tony

[Watcher]

Your Level Ten Is Probably NOT Tuned/Broken In Properly.The Friction on the Level Ten Carrier O Ring Will Lessen as It Breaks In.Tune It The Way these guys Told you to and Then Give It Some time.Level Tens Need To Be Cycled Around 500 Times Before the Oring Truly Mates To The Rest of the Parts.If Nothing You Could Try the Next Size Up Carrier to reduce friction.
LVLX Will Almost always Stop Balls From Being Chopped,Regardless of spring,You Just Won't Be Able to turn the velocity Up Beyond 270~with the shorter "LVL7"Spring.I personally NEVER Use the Red Spring.Hope somthing I Said Helps! :p

Tony

My lvl10 has about 3 cases through it at this point, and nothing has changed. The next size up carrier I use leaks, so the one I have is currently ideal.

Why won't I be able to get the velocity up with the lvl7 spring? Or will it just be able to chop if I get the velocity high enough?
Or will the reg leak by pushing it?

Is the red spring equivilant to the clipped one? Or is the red one the hardest?



No, earlier someone said to use an extra shim in the lvl10 until it leaks, then sand it down until it stops leaking and it will gain reactivity. That makes no sense to me as all the shims do is tell the bolt when it can fire.

As far as the washer above the on/off, I tried a washer I had in my parts kit and it made the on/off not fit in the valve correctly so the valve would not fit in the gun.
It was probably just too thick, but I don't know if it will work even with a thin one as I tried it with the field-strip screw washer and that didn't even let me use the valve.
It may be due to the fact that I have a single o-ring top on/off.

I'll try one of those #8 washers today though and see what happens.

However, I did try to switch to the lvl7 spring again and it made it react very well. Perhaps THIS was due to the lvl10 breaking in, but I do not know. If you are saying I can't get the velocity up then I won't be able to use it anyway.

[AnthonyDStone]

Why Dop you Need More Velocity?Try it over a Chrono and Shoot it for accuracy/distance.I Bet you will be happy at the velocity you are getting with the lvl 7 spring.I Never use anything else.You should be able to go as high as 285 without problems.And NO It Won't leak at these velocities and should be just fine on paint!The Only thing I Could See doing with washers is have 3 rather than two in the lvl 10,the washers Give it SPACE to vent(Between the washers)I Find 3 works much better than 2 for Quick Venting in the event the level ten needs to do its job.

Tony

[athomas]

My lvl10 has about 3 cases through it at this point, and nothing has changed. The next size up carrier I use leaks, so the one I have is currently ideal.

Why won't I be able to get the velocity up with the lvl7 spring? Or will it just be able to chop if I get the velocity high enough?
Or will the reg leak by pushing it?

Is the red spring equivilant to the clipped one? Or is the red one the hardest?



No, earlier someone said to use an extra shim in the lvl10 until it leaks, then sand it down until it stops leaking and it will gain reactivity. That makes no sense to me as all the shims do is tell the bolt when it can fire.

As far as the washer above the on/off, I tried a washer I had in my parts kit and it made the on/off not fit in the valve correctly so the valve would not fit in the gun.
It was probably just too thick, but I don't know if it will work even with a thin one as I tried it with the field-strip screw washer and that didn't even let me use the valve.
It may be due to the fact that I have a single o-ring top on/off.

I'll try one of those #8 washers today though and see what happens.

However, I did try to switch to the lvl7 spring again and it made it react very well. Perhaps THIS was due to the lvl10 breaking in, but I do not know. If you are saying I can't get the velocity up then I won't be able to use it anyway.
Any of the springs allow good antichop. Turning up the velocity probably won't affect the chopping too much. The spring you are using should allow you to operate at about 20 fps above the lowest setting that the gun will cycle.

The red spring is the same as the cut spring.

Shims in the level 10 system only affect how far the bolt needs to move in order to vent air. Most of the time you never need them because even if there is a breach block, the bolt will move far enough anyway. I don't know where the sanding idea came from. You don't ever need to do that.

Using a shim or two in the on-off pushes the top up higher and simulates a shorter on-off pin. This shortens the distance between the point where the on-off closes and the sear is released and makes it easier to go reactive. Too many shims in the on-off and you squeeze the oring and actually make it tighter, which could interfer with the operation. I wouldn't use any more than one or two if I was doing it. It just adds some tweaking. A washer is probably too thick.

The level 7 spring will work at all velocities. The stronger springs will only allow the gun to cycle at higher velocities. Too stiff a spring and the starting velocity may be too high for the field you are at. Use the spring that allows you to shoot in the range you want to.

[Watcher]

I've been using the middle spring with good results over the chrono, however all the fields by me limit at 280 so if the lvl7 spring can handle up to 285 then I should be good to go.
I always thought the lvl7 spring was for indoor velocity, so around 250...

I like to chrono a bit low with the mag since it will heat-ramp.


I'll be playing with the gun near the end of this month, so I'll see how it does then.


If I try the on/off washer then I'll post up the results later.

[Ando]

I don't understand how shimming the lvl 10 is going affect the reactiveness of your mag. If anything, it’ll play with the trigger pull. I purchased a venom bolt a few months after I got my first mag back in 96-98 Between it and the stock bolt, the venom lightened up the trigger pull considerably, even on my Retro Valve. The shaving of the shim is :tard: just use a ULT shim.

Now, I’m a meat and potato guy. I don’t know nor do I care how the lvl 10 or RT works. What I do know and care about is how to get the most out of it.
If I was you, I’d reset your lvl 10 the way you had it and just get yourself an adj reg to get your RT rolling.
I can't get any of my valves to RT but one on a non-adj regulator. Why that is? I don’t know but a adj reg is the way to go.

[Watcher]

I am not messing with the lvl10 shims. Besides, I only have 2 and I'm not about to bend/break them.

I am the kind of guy where if I don't know how it works I won't mess with it, and I don't see how on earth that shimming the lvl10 differently will change anything.


Now, what I AM trying is the use of shims in the On/Off, and THAT is what I am using a washer for.



I'm all for the adjustable output regs, but I don't really want to dig one up nor do I want rediculous reactivity. All I want is for my mag to perform like it did with the lvl7, but I want the anti-chop propeties.

Plus, I don't want to be changing my reg for every gun I put my HPA tank on. My Crossfire and Ninja regs work excellent on my mag with a lvl7 bolt installed.

If adding a washer to the On/Off will do that I'm willing to try it.


Anyway I found a washer that is .200 thickness. That is 2 lvl10 shims or 4 ULT shims. It is too thick and it won't allow my On/Off to fit in the valve. I am working on filing it down to .100 or even .050.

[athomas]

Shims in the level 10 have no affect on the retro effect.

Watcher: The level 7 bolt spring will work in all conditions. Its not just for low velocity. As you install stiffer and stiffer springs, the lowest cycling velocity also increases. What it means, is that the level 7 spring may allow the mag to start cycling at 220 fps depending on your setup. This means it will work reliably at any range above 240 fps. The red spring may not allow the gun to cycle until the velocity is set to 260 fps. That means the gun will cycle reliably at any velocity above 280 fps. The stiffest spring may not allow the gun to cycle until the velocity is set to 300 fps, which means it will not cycle reliably until it is set to 320 fps or above. These values vary from mag to mag but give you an idea of how the springs affect your velocity range.

For the RT effect, the shorter pins or simulated shorter pins only help increase any reactivity. If your setup is not able to RT, chances are that a shorter pin will not help. RT effect is caused by the differential force from the unregulated pressure acting on the top of the pin to the regulated force acting on the bottom of the pin. That is why it works better when you increase the input pressure.

Retro valves don't heat ramp as much with level 10 bolts installed. The heating is due to the recompression of the air in the front chamber. Since the level 10 bolts operate on a higher chamber pressure there is less difference between the input and the chamber pressures and the amount of heating is reduced.

[Watcher]

Shims in the level 10 have no affect on the retro effect.

Watcher: The level 7 bolt spring will work in all conditions. Its not just for low velocity. As you install stiffer and stiffer springs, the lowest cycling velocity also increases. What it means, is that the level 7 spring may allow the mag to start cycling at 220 fps depending on your setup. This means it will work reliably at any range above 240 fps. The red spring may not allow the gun to cycle until the velocity is set to 260 fps. That means the gun will cycle reliably at any velocity above 280 fps. The stiffest spring may not allow the gun to cycle until the velocity is set to 300 fps, which means it will not cycle reliably until it is set to 320 fps or above. These values vary from mag to mag but give you an idea of how the springs affect your velocity range.

For the RT effect, the shorter pins or simulated shorter pins only help increase any reactivity. If your setup is not able to RT, chances are that a shorter pin will not help. RT effect is caused by the differential force from the unregulated pressure acting on the top of the pin to the regulated force acting on the bottom of the pin. That is why it works better when you increase the input pressure.

Retro valves don't heat ramp as much with level 10 bolts installed. The heating is due to the recompression of the air in the front chamber. Since the level 10 bolts operate on a higher chamber pressure there is less difference between the input and the chamber pressures and the amount of heating is reduced.

Ok, thanks for the info. Really cleared some stuff up.

The lvl7 spring DID help increase my reactivity, as I tried it at work today. I was able to RT much more effectively.

Currently I have a washer filed down to .100 and I tosses it into the On/Off. It helped immensely, however it leaks out of the On/Off with the washer installed.

So, off to ULT tuning threads for now. I'll update.

[athomas]

It shouldn't leak out the on-off with a washer installed unless a piece of dirt got on one of the 2 lower orings either inside or outside. As long as those two orings are making contact there should be no leak.

[Watcher]

It shouldn't leak out the on-off with a washer installed unless a piece of dirt got on one of the 2 lower orings either inside or outside. As long as those two orings are making contact there should be no leak.

I even aired it up without the washer. For some reason with it installed it leaks.

Washer was very clean, I rinsed it off and even put some oil on it.

It got bent inside the On/Off, though, so I'm going to try a larger OD washer on top.


I know it was the On/Off because it leaked with the trigger pulled as well as at rest. The only other place to leak from is the PT and that isn't happening because the lvl10 is set up correctly.


Edit:

Ok, with a .100 shim on top of the on/off and the lvl7 sping I get very good reactivity. I'd compare it to the lvl7 bolt!
With the harder spring, the one I wanted, it isn't rediculous but it is still very RT-able. And the bolt feather-taps my finger, where the lvl7 spring I can actually feel it a little.


I think I am happy with it. Once I get to a chrono and add paint it should fire very easily.

[Watcher]

Put the lvl7 spring in to test with paint.

You guys were right, it stops on RPS Stinger, which is well known at my store to be the choppiest paint we ever sold...


So I am thuroughly happy with the results of the lighter spring and the washer on/off mod.

[Watcher]

So my heart took a belly flop today.


I was all excited to shoot my RT with the washer shimmed on/off and lvl7 spring on the lvl10 bolt, I go to the chrono and I'm shoting 165. When I get it up to 280, I lose my RT function! :(


As opposed to unshimmed, the shimmed on/off allows me to walk it easier, but I still don't have RT function since I installed the lvl10...


I can get it cranking with a little practice, but it still can't sweetspot the trigger...


Am I lost short of upping the pressure or shortening the on/off pin?


I'm running with a .750 pin, on/off shimmed with a .010 washer (biggest I can go and have the valve still fit in the body), trigger pin to spec, running SS line.

I'd like to make the tank non mag-specific at 850psi output, and I'd like to keep the valve I have but make it reactive.


Is there a way that getting it drilled for 2-oring top would make it have higher flow? I know I could then ULT it...

[Ando]

Is there a way that getting it drilled for 2-oring top would make it have higher flow? I know I could then ULT it...
No it's not going to give you a higher flow. Last thing you can do besides getting a adj tank is shaving down your on/off pin.

[Watcher]

How much can the pin be shortened before it can cause problems?

.725? .712?

[SSP REAPER]

How much can the pin be shortened before it can cause problems?

.725? .712?
I would go no shorter than .712
There is a reason the Emag uses a .712 pin and not anything less.
Unless you own an Xmag of course :D

[Watcher]

I would go no shorter than .712
There is a reason the Emag uses a .712 pin and not anything less.
Unless you own an Xmag of course :D

Why, what do X's need?


Actually, I just read in the tolerance spec sticky that the RT Pro uses a .765 pin, not a .750 pin as is currently inside my gun.

Why is it longer spec than the Automag/RT/ReTro/X pin? And should I use that length pin?

If I am correct, shorter should be more reactive. Why would a longer pin be used?

[athomas]

Are you using a quad oring? The quad oring will reduce some of the friction associated with the on-off assembly. It should help. Because the quad oring moves the contact point lower, it will require you to use a shorter pin. I think the distance change is about 0.012". This is why the emags moved from a 0.725" pin to a 0.712" pin following the addition of the quad oring.

Another area that can help, is to use an unported barrel that is about 11" long. That maximizes the efficiency of the system and allows the operation at a lower chamber pressure, which would increase reactivity. The other option is to find a barrel with small porting. I have an old Equation barrel that is very quiet and very efficient at the same time. It seems like the best of both worlds.

[Spider-TW]

So, athomas, you think at higher velocities the marker has higher dump chamber pressures and he's loosing that last bit of pressure differential, compared to the lower velocity chamber pressures?

I guess the other end is that you could be hitting the flow limit on your bottle reg at higher pressures but not at the lower pressures.

I didn't see it above just now, which bottle reg are you using?

[athomas]

Operating at a higher chamber pressure does affect the differential value and thus does affect the reactivity. This same differential would also affect a regulator. If the mag reg immediately dumps any available air pressure into the chamber, then the lag caused by a slow reacting bottle regulator would prevent any prolonged force acting on the top of the on-off pin. The actual pressure seen by the top of the pin would never be as high as the output of the bottle reg once the air starts to flow past the pin. The slower the bottle reg is, the lower the pressure at the output gets. The higher chamber pressure further reduces any potential flow. The amount of force available to push the top of the pin is directly proportional to the pressure difference so reactivity goes down with small differential pressures and slow regulator response.

[Watcher]

I'm using a 850PSI output Ninja reg, new a few months ago, I'd say it is plenty broken in and it seems to recharge and flow well.


Not a quad o-ring. Single o-ring top, standard urethane...


As far as the porting thing, I don't see how that would effect the reactivity drastically. Besides, I'm using the RT "crownpoint" style stock barrel 99% of the time. It is about 11" unported save for the muzzle-brake.



Updating the problem. I was very confused then had an epiphony.

I added shims to the lvl10. I added 2 making it 4 shims. It didn't leak, but it seemed to make it more reactive.
To find out why I made an experiement. I added and removed shims one at a time to test the trigger pull. Now it didn't seem to effect anything... So I put the whole 4 shims back in and it leaked on and off, then got bolt stick :confused:

So I moved to the 2 shims again, then played with the springs. Seemed to be reactive with the silver spring. Went gold spring and it wasn't. Went silver and it wasn't this time for some reason, went gold again and it wasn't reactive again either.

I marked the position of my reg cap, then adjusted it a little. Ater playing around with it to no good results, I put it back to where I knew I chronoed it at 280.

So I tried to increase the output on my tank reg, realized I didn't have the right shims, put it back together, guaged an ASA to make sure it WAS outputting over 850, which it was, then put it on the gun to no reactivity.

Looked at the On/Off, nothing out of the ordinary. Measured the shim I made, still .010 and still in place correctly...


Then I put everything down and stepped back for a minute, got a soda, and thought about it.


On a whim I flooded the fitting into the valve with oil. Maybe 10+ drops, then aired it up.

Reactivity with silver spring, sweetspots on a gold spring! :shooting:


I guess all it needed was some mag-juice :rolleyes:

[Ando]

OMG...All this due to Oil. :rofl:

[Watcher]

OMG...All this due to Oil. :rofl:

I've now offically had my hands on about 4-5 automags that were not firing right, got oiled, then behaved like new out of the box...

One was ravenneon's Minimag at TDV, when it was leaking air and oil solved it. He still hasn't changed an o-ring in about 10 years or so...

Another was one I got in my shop that just felt sticky and had leaks on occasion. Oiled it and it felt ok, as far as I know it is still shooting.

There was another in the shop that I couldn't figure out, took apart, put back together, added oil and it was magically better.

And now mine was goofed up, got some lube, then was fine.


It's enscribed on my brain, now. At first sign of issues... oil... :cheers:

[athomas]

If oiling helps, then the quad oring will definately help. It reduces friction as well. Perhaps you are getting a bit of bolt stick as well, which is not causing the gun not to fire, but rather slowing down the bolt cycle.

The unported barrel works better because it is more efficient due to a longer acceleration area. This allows the gun to operate at a lower chamber pressure. The crown point barrel is a great barrel for this.

[Ando]

Watcher...I just figured you already did the bucket or 2 of oil in the asa thing :p I never say anything about oil to someone with 400+ posts, I always assume it's been done already ;)

Well never the less, I'm glad you got it working,

[Spider-TW]

If oiling helps, then the quad oring will definately help. It reduces friction as well. Perhaps you are getting a bit of bolt stick as well, which is not causing the gun not to fire, but rather slowing down the bolt cycle.
With the quad oring, the shim probably won't be enough and you will need the shorter pin. I would order the quad ring and the .712 pin at the same time (.712 shim-less and .728 maybe shimmed...thereabouts). I did this on my classic pneumag; it makes for entertaining and informative experiments.

Thanks for the reg info, I've been thinking about a setup with a ninja reg.

I've also found the stem oring in the on/off can get stiff as it gets old. My pneumag has a buna (black at least...) oring which helped loosen it up just right.

[Watcher]

Can you quad a single o-ring top?

No bolt stick. Besides, if I go up a carrier size I get a PT leak.


My shop has plenty of Buna and Urathane (black) o-rings. I might try one. That is what is holding on my powertube tip right now (black urethane).

The Bunas seem a tad weak, though.


The barrel thing, would the effeciency gain be that drastic? I know they have more effective length (why I love Lapco barrels), but I wouldn't think it'd make the residual chamber pressure lower by enough to notice.


I'll probably put a few quads and pins on my next AGD order. I need a X parts kit, a lvl10 medium spring (just in case), some super warp hose, and other misc stuff.

[athomas]

Can you quad a single o-ring top?

The barrel thing, would the effeciency gain be that drastic? I know they have more effective length (why I love Lapco barrels), but I wouldn't think it'd make the residual chamber pressure lower by enough to notice.The quad will fit any mag in place of the white urethane oring.

I can't tell you specific numbers about efficiency gains on barrels. I do know that I can get over 1100 shots from a 88-3000 on my emag. That equates to about 1400 shots from a 68-4500 which is pretty good. Each tiny bit of pressure increase decreases the efficiency by quite a bit.

[Spider-TW]

I can get almost 35 fps difference in my pump (cocker type) just by going between a .691 12" J&J (lots of porting) to a .686 14" evil pipe with 2" of porting and the same paint of about .689.

If only I could stand to play with it for a full event, I wouldn't have to change the regulator when chronying up or down.

[Watcher]

The quad will fit any mag in place of the white urethane oring.

I can't tell you specific numbers about efficiency gains on barrels. I do know that I can get over 1100 shots from a 88-3000 on my emag. That equates to about 1400 shots from a 68-4500 which is pretty good. Each tiny bit of pressure increase decreases the efficiency by quite a bit.

Yeah, I've never counted but I can get an easy 1000 off of my 68/45. I can usually do 6 pods and a hopper and still have 1000psi left, and I can shoot my mag down to 500.

I usually use my stock barrel, but I also have an ACI Zero-Gravity barrel which has quite a bit of porting. I may have an experiement to do...


I do notice better performance with paint, and I understand why. There is a definite effeciency gain compared to dry firing. This would be the extreme example of a ported barrel using more air, but I still don't see a well ported barrel vs a non-ported barrel making more than, say, 50 shots difference off of a tank.

Considering I wear no more than 4 pods and air-up pretty much after every couple games or so, my setup is plenty effecient for me no matter if I use a swiss-cheese 5" barrel or a solid 12".

[athomas]

... I still don't see a well ported barrel vs a non-ported barrel making more than, say, 50 shots difference off of a tank.
Consider a well ported barrel that starts the porting at 6" as a 6" barrel. The ball needs enough energy behind it to accelerate it to 300fps in just 6". There is quite a bit more energy required than is needed to accelerate a ball to 300fps in 11" for an unported barrel. Plus, if you reduce the energy requirement, you reduce the pressure in the chamber, which will increase the reactivity.

[fierymartel]

Not to revive an old thread, but just set my retro with level 10. Using 1.0 carrier, level 10 spring, and .740 on/off pin. Didn't chrono, but this thing rips. Looks like maybe 12-17 bps. Emptied my Vlocity in 15 seconds! Very controllable.