Ball chopping...Not what I thought.

[Smoothice]

Well I was given this link by d4m4don3 here on AO and it is truly amazing.

Not only is the video footage amazing but it shows how a ball is actually chopped.

Watch and be amazed.

If the xvalve ever gets a redesign this MUST be taken into consideration...

Edit:I have been corrected in this thread. No redesign is necessary EVER :D and that I am :tard: for ever thinking it

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[DevilMan]

Well I was given this link by d4m4don3 here on AO and it is truly amazing.

Not only is the video footage amazing but it shows how a ball is actually chopped.

Watch and be amazed.

If the xvalve ever gets a redesign this MUST be taken into consideration...



Welllllllllllllllllll where's part 2????

Slacker!

:D

Cool video. Really liked seeing the slow motion chops. Funny how it does that not on 1 ball but through the process. It's like the first one that you notice is actually about 3 balls back from the start of the problem.

DM

[Thordic]

That was pretty damn interesting indeed.

[eckoblazer]

Gotta hand it to eclipse for the cure bolts, very well thought out.

[Miltonyz]

I watched the first five minutes. It appears that it says that chops are caused by the bolt nicking the next ball in the stack weakening it and causes problems. If I understand the video correctly the Level 10 already corrects that problem. When the LVL X came out Tom Kaye explained that was an issue with lvl 7 bolts.

[behemoth]

Interesting vid indeed. Part two only shows how to install the new cure bolt...

[Smoothice]

I watched the first five minutes. It appears that it says that chops are caused by the bolt nicking the next ball in the stack weakening it and causes problems. If I understand the video correctly the Level 10 already corrects that problem. When the LVL X came out Tom Kaye explained that was an issue with lvl 7 bolts.

Well that may be true. I was always under the impression a chop occurred with a partially fed ball on its way into the breach. Never did I think it could be caused by the next ball in line to be shot.

I would have to look at my level 10 and level 7 bolts to see if there is any slope/ramp milling to correct this problem.

If you are referring to the level 10 resetting as the cure to the problem the video presents then I would think every shot would be a bolt reset and you would never fire a ball.

[Wanta B Sniper]

LvL 10 bolts starts out moving slowly, and with a rounded nose I think that would help cure that problem mostly.

[cockerpunk]

well it took jack and the rest of us in punkworks a couple of months to formulate the different theories as to barrel breaks after we solidly destroyed the idea that a small bore barrel causes them. since then we have been referring to such breaks as loading fractures. and so far the reaction for the industry from those findings has been pretty substantial.

[Temo Vryce]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5sFfgRw-Uc

Part 2

[Tunaman]

Well at least they got it figured out in THAT gun...TK already figured it out in ours about 10 years ago... ;) :D

[Smoothice]

Well at least they got it figured out in THAT gun...TK already figured it out in ours about 10 years ago... ;) :D

hmmm. Maybe that's why I never realized a chop like this was possible. I've always used mags. ;)

Well would this be an issue with a level 7?

What if this ramp idea was applied to the level 7. Would it equal faster cycling with less chops?

[Beemer]

Well at least they got it figured out in THAT gun...TK already figured it out in ours about 10 years ago... ;) :D

:D More then 10 years ago.

[Wanta B Sniper]

hmmm. Maybe that's why I never realized a chop like this was possible. I've always used mags. ;)

Well would this be an issue with a level 7?

What if this ramp idea was applied to the level 7. Would it equal faster cycling with less chops?

Yea, since the LvL 7 accelerates much faster at the beginning than the LvL 10 it is very possibly the cause of many chops rather than actually crushing the ball between the top the the breech and the bolt.

[Hexis]

It is quite nice to see other companies working with improvements that can be shown to be making a change vs total hype.

High Speed Video = all kinds of fun.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

Not only is the video footage amazing but it shows how a ball is actually chopped.

Watch and be amazed.

If the xvalve ever gets a redesign this MUST be taken into consideration...

First, as others have stated, this is not a chop, but the bolt clipping the ball stack. A chop is a result of the bolt moving forward with a ball only partially in the breach and "chopping" it. Clipping, as seen in this video, is very different.

And no, this is not necessary for the redesign of the X-Valve. This is pertinent only because of the breach of an Ego is fairly large when compared to other systems.

[KC]

no, this is not necessary for the redesign of the X-Valve. This is pertinent only because of the breach of an Ego is fairly large when compared to other systems.

qft

[Smoothice]

the breach of an Ego is fairly large when compared to other systems.

yeah? Interesting. I learn something new every day. :cheers:

[Smoothice]

First, as others have stated, this is not a chop,
.

hmm. I didn't really see anybody disputing it..ehh...

[dark blade]

lest just say this from the get go... DONT FIX WHAT ISNT BROKEN... lets make a pact to never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever redesign the x-valve... To me, redesigning the x-valve or level 10 is the equivalent of making the SP magic box. There is nothing you can do to make it better so lets not try to make it worse :)

but on another note... im glad that someone other than me and my buddy from college have realised that barrel breaks dont exist and are admitting it.

[Smoothice]

Let me also say this. I posted this because the vid is awesome. And because I never realized a break of this kind was possible.

Sorry to mention the xvalve. Didn't realize it would hurt anybodies butt :p

And I have already admitted I was wrong and the level 10 does prevent this from happening.

So read the whole thread before calling me an idiot. And after you read it... then you can call me an idiot... ;)

[Toll]

I just love seeing real information put out rather than hype. "This works" is never quite as good as "this works, here's how"

[GoatBoy]

I'm glad to see that at least one manufacturer has taken up the mantle of doing study and research once again.

Their solution is a little... goofy in my opinion though.

I was going to mention this in another thread (the Impulse one), but the more I watch this video...

The more convinced I am that given the force fed nature of modern loaders, the time is right for the detente and the breach sensor to be integrated. For a vertical feed, the ball drops down into kind of a "catcher's mitt", which also happens to be attached to a switch of some sort. As the ball lowers, the detente's already caught the ball, and when it's reached a safe position the switch engages, and you're ready to shoot.

The whole thing would sit at the bottom of the chamber and obviate the need for eye sensors and assorted Rube Goldberg "innovations" like "magnetic hinged eye covers".

[dark blade]

no offense taken by any of us with the xvalve comment... just want to defend the old man kaye.

Also... i am glad to see people are actually doing research on how to improve markers more now-a-days... unfortunately i think they just need to research how much an xvalved mag costs if they want to improve markers :D and just start selling those.

but i do agree slightly with the detent idea. However... i feel that if you were to install detents so that they sat right in front and right behind the ball (and slightly above the center line of the ball) then when the ball was pushed into the breech via the loader, the ball would literaly be held in place by the detents.

I think it would be a great idea... but then again thats just me.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

but on another note... im glad that someone other than me and my buddy from college have realised that barrel breaks dont exist and are admitting it.

This video does nothing to prove barrel breaks do not exist. It simply proves the effectiveness of the Cure 3 bolt with fragile paint. If I remember correctly, I remember Simon, the VP of R&D at KEE, has made statements about barrel breaks and their causes.

[dark blade]

This video does nothing to prove barrel breaks do not exist. It simply proves the effectiveness of the Cure 3 bolt with fragile paint. If I remember correctly, I remember Simon, the VP of R&D at KEE, has made statements about barrel breaks and their causes.

but when you click on the video and go to the other videos that are there it shows that barrel breaks are actually proved to be by a sheared ball when feeding... hence what is depicted above.

A chop is when the ball loading the chamber breaks when loading due to the bolt cutting it. A "Barrel break" is when the bolt slices the ball above the one in the chamber and therefore causes paint to shoot out after fired instead of during the load into the breech.

either way though, barrel breaks don't exist, just too high pressured loaders. Lower the bps or tension on the stack and it eliminates all problems

[behemoth]

You mean to tell me its impossible for a ball to break in the middle of a barrel?!

[Indignant]

hmm. I didn't really see anybody disputing it..ehh...


a chop by definition is a ball being hit by the bolt while it is partially in the breach. this is why guns have eyes to sense when the ball is all the way in, why the LvlX bolt is so low pressure in the first stage, etc. this video didn't have a single chop in it, it had some balls being damaged by the bolt while in line and then bursting in the chamber.

[cockerpunk]

i think we are all maybe going to some unjustified extremes.

i think its true that most barrel breaks are caused by pre-damaged paintballs. thats certainly what we observed in our testing, and both simon and jack wood have agreed with that idea.

[Smoothice]

a chop by definition is a ball being hit by the bolt while it is partially in the breach. this is why guns have eyes to sense when the ball is all the way in, why the LvlX bolt is so low pressure in the first stage, etc. this video didn't have a single chop in it, it had some balls being damaged by the bolt while in line and then bursting in the chamber.

Huh? This video showed exactly what your definition of a chop is happening.

A ball partially in the breach getting hit by the bolt. Thats exactly what was happening.

[Indignant]

no

you have a gravity fed hopper and a gun with no eyes, no anti-chop bolt, whatever. as you're shooting, you outshoot your gun. there is no ball in the breach, but as the next one the hopper feeds is partway into the breach the bolt comes forward and destroys it. that's a chop.

the video was the ball hitting the next ball in the stack. it wasn't on its way in when it was compromised, it was just chillin.

[DevilMan]

Huh? This video showed exactly what your definition of a chop is happening.

A ball partially in the breach getting hit by the bolt. Thats exactly what was happening.


I think he means this.... Breach is empty. Bolt comes back, ball falls down, halfway into the breach bolt comes forward. CHOPPING the ball into because it wasn't fed all the way down into the breach. Basically if you turned the eyes off of the Ego and put a gravity feed hopper on it, I'd be willing to say that it'd chop in the first 5 shots if you tried to finger it fast. Cure bolt or not.

Meaning that the clipping that is seen in the vid is after the ball is stacked on top of the one in the breach. The classic chop as to what I always thought of was because the gun was blind or had no sensor to say a ball was in place. So it was straight pull and shoot. It didn't matter whether there was a ball 100% 50% or even 10% in the breach the gun still shot.

DM

[athomas]

I'd like to see the cure bolt shooting the same green balls, not the orange ones.

We've always known about the clipping of the next ball in the stack for years. Its good that someone finally acknowledged it and actually showed it happening. I have always used a larger bore barrel to prevent it. That way I wasn't shoving a damaged ball into a tight bore. Less chance it will fly apart. I rarely had "barrel breaks", even on fragile paint, while using any gun.

[SSP-SheiK]

You mean to tell me its impossible for a ball to break in the middle of a barrel?!
so then what explains this: i shoot goo out my barrel, chop/misfeed/break w/e... i take off my barrel to clean it, the sizer or insert is clean but the tip or the rest of the barrel is coated... that sounds like a barrel break to me...

[cockerpunk]

so then what explains this: i shoot goo out my barrel, chop/misfeed/break w/e... i take off my barrel to clean it, the sizer or insert is clean but the tip or the rest of the barrel is coated... that sounds like a barrel break to me...

keep in mind also that firing more paint though the barrel will clean the smaller bore part out. unless you take the barrel off before firing another shot, then you wont know if it was a mid barrel break.

[rx2]

I have had a ball break in the middle of the barrel, while hand-loading individual rounds in my backyard. I have had this happen with every marker I have owned, and with several different barrels, all of which were one-piece barrels of a single ID. This was with clean barrels, too. It also wasn't due to imperfections in the barrels, as it wasn't repeatable, and I inspected them closely to make sure that there wasn't a sharp edge on a port, or something similar.

So, I know empirically that a break can happen at any point as the paint is traveling down the barrel. There is nothing precluding it from happening. However, I also know that it is extremely rare in a clean, smooth barrel.

[dark blade]

what people need to realise (and i have watched cocker punks egg video to explain this one) is that the force being applied equally around the circumfrance of the ball will need to be EXTREMELY HUGE to crush the paintball mid barrel. the only reasonable means to have a ball break mid barrel would be for it to be damaged or have "malfunctioned" at some point while being fired... aka a chop. Even with a larger bored barrel, if the ball is sliced or damaged at all when it is fired it will explode... the pressure from the shot breaks the ball open not the tight bore of the barrel.

The only real way to explain the muzzle loading breaks is that the ball is going from a complete 0 and being slammed with massive pressure from behind instantaneously rather than the slight movement and acceleration the ball is put into by the moving bolt before the air is released to behind it... but of course i could be wrong on that theory and probably am

[SSP-SheiK]

what people need to realise (and i have watched cocker punks egg video to explain this one) is that the force being applied equally around the circumfrance of the ball will need to be EXTREMELY HUGE to crush the paintball mid barrel. the only reasonable means to have a ball break mid barrel would be for it to be damaged or have "malfunctioned" at some point while being fired... aka a chop. Even with a larger bored barrel, if the ball is sliced or damaged at all when it is fired it will explode... the pressure from the shot breaks the ball open not the tight bore of the barrel.

The only real way to explain the muzzle loading breaks is that the ball is going from a complete 0 and being slammed with massive pressure from behind instantaneously rather than the slight movement and acceleration the ball is put into by the moving bolt before the air is released to behind it... but of course i could be wrong on that theory and probably am
well that doesnt make any sense at all... either way the ball is at "zero" loaded by hand or hopper. hes trying to figure out why theres still a break. even when there is no ball in the stack vulnerable to the bolt. chops usually dont happen with the first shot (if you watched the video). when hand feeding, every shot is technically the first shot..

cockerpunk: say i have a break... before i fire any more shots i take the barrel off to clean it. i look down the barrel and the sizer or insert is completely clean, however the end of the barrel (like after the insert or sizer) is coated. you mean to tell me that the ball failed beforehand yet didnt get a drop of paint anywhere else save for the end of the barrel?

something doesnt match up here. (i think it may be the paint to bore :P da dunn tshh!) ;)

[dark blade]

what i am trying to say is that with the ball breech loaded the ball gets hit with air immediately. with the bolt breech load the bolt moves forward before the ball gets hit with air so the ball is in motion before the air blast hits it.

and what cockerpunk is trying to say is that the tighter bore fit makes it so that next paintball cleans out the bore better than the overbored section of the tip which is where the paint is located.

[cockerpunk]

cockerpunk: say i have a break... before i fire any more shots i take the barrel off to clean it. i look down the barrel and the sizer or insert is completely clean, however the end of the barrel (like after the insert or sizer) is coated. you mean to tell me that the ball failed beforehand yet didnt get a drop of paint anywhere else save for the end of the barrel?

possibly ...

there are reasons why paintballs would fail mid barrel, but those are much more rare then loading issues.

[SSP-SheiK]

yea i dont think that the paintball is cabable of completely cleaning a barrel sizer out of broken paint and shell (without leaving any evidence of the break itself)...

mid barrel breaks are rare, but not mythical...



and your explenation on handfeeding vs loader feeding still doesnt make sense to me, sorry...

[dark blade]

Think of my explaination in the terms of a soccer ball... if you run and kick the ball from standing the ball flys really really far (depending on your strength)... now if you roll the ball at the exact same speed in which you run and then kick it with the same force it doesn't go nearly as far... its the same theory to me... and to me it makes perfect sense but its fine that others don't understand or agree.


Make any better sense now?

[SSP-SheiK]

no, because how is the ball standing still or beginning roll with the bolt due to the method of loading?? either way the ball is not moving and the bolt pushes the ball into the breach/down the barrel. the only difference is that there isnt another ball in the stack if you hand feed one by one opposed to the stack having 2-3 balls in place to be dropped into the breach. do you think that because its loaded with a hopper the ball starts to roll down the barrel prior to the bolt hitting it?

your soccer explanation is flawed too... no matter if the ball is the same speed as the player running, you still have the added power of the leg kicking the ball (so its just like if the ball and player were standing still anyway.)

[dark blade]

nooooo im saying that the ball CAN break without being flawed when placed in the barrel due to the direct force without being at motion first... and that the ball that is SITTING in the breech will NOT break when not flawed because it has less of a "force" behind it.

we are clearly thinking on 2 completely different "playing fields" so to speak... but thats ok... like i said, i think on my own cloud anyways :) most people just look at me and go HUH??!?!? when i am in the lab or working with numbers and formulas haha.

im going to resign into my corner now and play with my own calculations for a while :) cheers all :cheers: