Another Which Barrel is Best Thread

[jrod]

Oh no! It's another which barrel is best discussion.

But seriously, I want your opinions. I've used Lapco Bigshots on all my markers (.689) for the last 10 years. Currently, I have a 12" Bigshot on my TacOne. And honestly, I really don't have any complaints. But can I do better. I shoot, almost exclusively, field paint at CPX (Marballizer).

I did briefly have a Palmer Blazer with a brass barrel. It was okay, but I never felt that I shot darts with it.

I read somewhere on here or MCB that a tight bore was desirable. I'd like to hear more about this. So, let's hear what you use. Try to give me facts and firsthand experience.

Thanks in advance.

[Indignant]

boomstick, duh

[dark blade]

any barrel kit or extremely small bored barrel... overboring hurts accuracy, efficiency, and consistancy... the worst thing underboring will do is make you hit your target easier ;)

any barrel kit out there will perform very very well. The main problem you will run into is loyalties to kits. If you ask for an honest respone on a barrel you will not get one. If you ask for honest truths about TYPES of barrels you will get one.

Everyone will say the same thing... get a kit :) cheers :cheers:





edited: added more info.

The ultimate barrel test (was amazing) and the tests that bryce and cocker punk have done all show the same thing, barrel length does not affect accuracy. Barrel bore does... the bore size of a paintball barrel is seen to be best when appropriately matching the bore size to the paintball barrel to maxamize the efficiency while still maintaining the correct hold on the ball to prevent a spin. With a large bore barrel and a small bore ball you get some air flow around the ball which can cause weird vortexes or spins on the ball and throw it off a straight path.

I personally use an SS insert freak kit and have never had a problem ever. The hard boring and the fine honing of it allows for great tolerances and great fitting of paint no matter the size and i shoot a 4" pattern at 100 feet over and over and over again ever day i play

[Indignant]

barrel length does too effect accuracy. how else do you explain a hunting rifle being more accurate than a pistol at distance

[Chrome]

Rifling is the answer to that question. . . and a projectile designed to take advantage of it. Remember, bullets are tapered projectiles with an internal mass that stays constant that are very well stabilized when given a bit of spin (like a football, only smaller). A paintball, on the other hand, is a round projectile, that has an internal mass that wobbles around during flight (the fill), has an external structure that changes shape during flight (the shell), and does all kinds of fun things when spinning (the flatline/apex barrels being a creative application of this, which is very different than the spin applied in the direction of a rifled barrel).

Now please remember that some folks will say that rifling works for paintballs (and find "evidence" to prove the point), others will say that it does nothing at best and is harmful at worst (and also find "evidence" to prove it).

Hope that makes it marginally more clear than mud. :D



Oh, and regarding the original question, they aren't the most popular camp around these days, but my one piece Smart Parts barrels used to do very well with Marbs, but I'm not 100% sure how Marblizer is sizing out these days . . .

[Indignant]

no, that isn't it at all. studies show that length is one of the leading factors to an accurate barrel. the longer the barrel, the closer it is to the target, the less distance the ball has to fly. statistically a 19' barrel will put balls on top of balls at a target 20' away. why wouldn't it work on a smaller scale?

[BiNumber3]

a 19' barrel n a target 20' away? hopefully thats a typo, any barrel can put balls on top of balls from a foot away.
and yes, the length will affect the paintball, a 16" barrel will launch a ball 4 inches futher than a 12 inch, projectile motion, same starting velocity, same angle, same external factors like air resistance....

[Indignant]

i rest my case

[cockerpunk]

the question is what do you mean by best?

most accurate? - pretty much all barrels are the same accuracy
most efficient? - a long underbore one piece with minimal porting
most consistent? - a two piece with a long back that is underbored

[Stayhuge]

Personally, I had an aluminum Freak kit, and I sold it and bought a Stainless kit. I use a 12 in barrel, and also have the apex tip that I can change out. I find that the Barrel is very accurate and efficient as long as the bore is sized well. I shoot all types of paint, depending on the time of year, and where I am playing, so it is essential that I can size the paint. However, from my understanding, a barrel that is the same diamerter the whole way is best, as long as the bore is matched well to the paint. I like being able to change bores easily, have one barrel that matches my anno, and be able to switch tips, so the freak works great for me. I think in the end, it is really personal preference, as long as the paint is matched to the bore There are people on the forum that swear by scepter kits, others that have 5 different one piece CP barrels, and some that have a single barrel. There are also DYE ultralite kits, with multiple backs.

The best way to look at it is how much of a control bore you have. With the Freak, I will admit, the paint is only matched for about 50% of the barrel. Then the tip is a wider to accomidate all bores. Where as if the barrel is all one bore, the ball is controlled the whole length of the barrel. In theory, the one piece should release the ball in a more controlled path. I have not tested any of this. These are simply what I have heard from others.

My choice, stainless Freak inserts, aluminum barrel, and I am very pleased, even though Smart Parts is :mad:

[Ninjeff]

Length DOES affect accuracy, for me, but not in the way you think. Study after study has shown that only the first 8 inches really affect a balls accuracy. I believe TK did some studies on that. So why doesnt everyone use 8 inch barrels? Well, i dont because i shoot like crap with one. For whatever reason, (probably due to the way i hold/shoot a paintball gun) i find a longer barrel allows me to "point" better and put more rounds where i want them. I use a Evil Pipe kit, 16 inches. I find its perfect for me. However, Groovy (a fellow AOer) prefers shorter lengths, and is just as deadly with them. I know several players who can consistantly send you reaching for the goggle cleaner with short barrels, and i can do the same with a longer one. I think its nothing to do with advanced ballistics or physics or anything, and everything to do with feel. My 16 inch barrel allows me a longer "point" to focus my eye on, and so i hit more things i point at. For others, the opposite is true.

Your millage may vary.

[GoatBoy]

I personally use an SS insert freak kit and have never had a problem ever. The hard boring and the fine honing of it allows for great tolerances and great fitting of paint no matter the size and i shoot a 4" pattern at 100 feet over and over and over again ever day i play


I would love to see a video of you making a 4" grouping at 100 feet away with a paintball gun.

[cockerpunk]

I would love to see a video of you making a 4" grouping at 100 feet away with a paintball gun.

me too!

[paintball72]

me three

[rx2]

Ninjeff - I believe you are correct in your analysis that a longer barrel is helping you to line up your shots better. That is one of the reasons for long-slide pistols in competition. The longer sight radius gives you a finer sight picture when using "iron" sights. I would imagine that you may be benefiting in the same way.

Indignant - the reason longer barrels are beneficial to firing bullets is, in large part, due to the fact that you can better control the way spin is imparted in the bullet, and you can attain higher velocity with better pressures (such as by using slower powders). Too much pressure can damage your weapon, create excessive vibrations and muzzle rise, and even damage the projectile (not to mention the loud report and muzzle flash). Too much spin can actually make a projectile to come apart. Too low of a spin rate, and you have a projectile that is more prone to tumble. Before firearms manufacturers really knew all of these factors, they used to think that a longer barrel was better. However, there is a diminishing return, and having excessively long barrels can actually be detrimental.

Another thing to consider is that longer barrels tend to have more mass, and thus diminish the effects of recoil, vibration, and distortion due to heat.

With paintballs, you aren't really dealing with any of these factors. If you have a marker that kicks heavily, a longer, and thus heavier barrel, could help to compensate. Other than that, firearms and paintball markers are kind of like apples and oranges.

[bulzeye]

the most accurate barrel is the one you like the best and have the most confidence in. i've had just as good of accuracy out of my .693 Lucky 15 barrel as I have with my .685 cp 2 piece, shooting the same paint.

i love my lucky 15 barrel

[maniacmechanic]

I would love to see a video of you making a 4" grouping at 100 feet away with a paintball gun.

Man that sounds like a challenge , times 3 :D

[kcombs9]

barrel length does too effect accuracy. how else do you explain a hunting rifle being more accurate than a pistol at distance

I think it was Mike from techPB that said "Every thing you know about real guns, Forget it, it dosnt apply to paint ball" Or something to that effect.

[chafnerjr]

the most accurate barrel is the one you like the best and have the most confidence in. i've had just as good of accuracy out of my .693 Lucky 15 barrel as I have with my .685 cp 2 piece, shooting the same paint.

i love my lucky 15 barrel

I agree... I've never fired anything as accurate as my 14" DW Fibur with freak inserts... but I've heard people say the same about lapco's, dye's, etc...

[jrod]

Excellent discussion guys. Does anyone know what diameter marballizers run these days? I'm thinking a .685 should work best for my needs. Anyone have luck with CP one piece barrels? The price is very attractive.

[SSP-SheiK]

no, that isn't it at all. studies show that length is one of the leading factors to an accurate barrel. the longer the barrel, the closer it is to the target, the less distance the ball has to fly. statistically a 19' barrel will put balls on top of balls at a target 20' away. why wouldn't it work on a smaller scale?

:rofl: :rofl:

i wonder if it would have enough velocity to even push the ball out of the barrel...

[bulzeye]

Excellent discussion guys. Does anyone know what diameter marballizers run these days? I'm thinking a .685 should work best for my needs. Anyone have luck with CP one piece barrels? The price is very attractive.

.685 should work, cp's are fantastic barrels

[SCpoloRicker]

..

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/4375/obvioustrolly.jpg


:)

[GoatBoy]

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/4375/obvioustrolly.jpg


:)


Hanlon's Razor.

[dark blade]

i think i am being summoned to a challenge here... and i will prevail!!!

:)

i will be making the video as soon as i get some paint that isnt 7 months old (and unturned) and a semi decent video camera.

[FiXeL]

Yada yada yada.... Sorry to say this, but we're shooting a viscous material in a gelatin shell. Sure, some barrels perform better than others, and over/underboring also has its effects. But in the end, any good barrel will do. Which barrel is best? I don't know and i dont care. There are certain brands and types of barrels that have good accuracy, so try them and find out. Don't like them? Sell them off and try something else untill you find a barrel that works for you.

Aslong as it shoots accurate enough, im happy with any barrel i screw/insert in my guns. These days i'm not looking at boresize either.. I use barrels within .689 - .691 range and it works great every time. If it works, it works and i dont really want to bother with finding the right bore for the paint i'm shooting.

Currently im using lapco one-piece barrels and i'm very sathisfied with them. For my twistlock mag i have a 16" AA barrel that performs well, and if that fails, dont have many twistlock options, but i do keep a redz pepperstick barrelkit for my cocker threaded guns, but that kit hasnt seen much action this year.

[MANN]

i think i am being summoned to a challenge here... and i will prevail!!!


Out of the hundreds of barrels that I tested I could not find one that gavve a 4" radius at ~80' what was it you used again?

edit: ss freak. Yeah. It is not possible I tried.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/Accuracy%20data/th_FreakSS89rec.jpg (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/Accuracy%20data/FreakSS89rec.jpg)
Stainless Steel Freak 0.689 RecSport 14"

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/Accuracy%20data/th_FreakSS87xball.jpg (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/Accuracy%20data/FreakSS87xball.jpg)
Stainless Steel Freak 0.687 Xball Gold 14"

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/Accuracy%20data/th_FreakSS87marb.jpg (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/Accuracy%20data/FreakSS87marb.jpg)
Stainless Steel Freak 0.687 Marballizer 14"

These are the shot patterns for the best insert size for the respectable paintball brand/make. none of them were 4"

[SSP-SheiK]

i never actually got to read your findings... what was the best one or ones out of your testing?

[dark blade]

But the difference between your test and my test will be that I hold the barrel steady rather than clamping it... so in truth its not actually 4" grouping but somehow the small movement that my hands cause on the marker ended up perfectly counter acting every slight curve of the ball and gave a great 4" grouping...

Now I wish I had made a video of the test that day :(

[GoatBoy]

But the difference between your test and my test will be that I hold the barrel steady rather than clamping it... so in truth its not actually 4" grouping but somehow the small movement that my hands cause on the marker ended up perfectly counter acting every slight curve of the ball and gave a great 4" grouping...

Now I wish I had made a video of the test that day :(

Heh, I didn't mean to pick on you. It just happened that you quantified your statements, and I tend to pay attention to hard stated data, because it should be reproducible.


Now, the rest of you, if you read this entire thread then you'll get bits and pieces of what is the ultimate answer to paintball accuracy in general.

Scientifically, talking strictly about the gun itself, you basically run into a law of diminishing returns, which appears to start around the 10-12 inch mark for paintball barrels and ballistics I believe (I haven't read the studies in a while, but it's probably around there). It's also why most barrel manufacturers will never release barrel accuracy test data.

Outside of that, you have to consider other factors, and in particular, which ones are the dominant factors. Everything will contribute in some part to a paintball marker's accuracy. You have to sort out the nonsense from the relevant. Obviously, if you think your barrel length's contribution to your distance to your target (i.e. a 19' barrel which is 1' away from the target argument) is a relevant, dominant factor on the paintball field, then that's just nonsense. (I believe that is called a "Straw Man" argument, and it's called a logical fallacy for a reason.) Trying to draw a direct relation to firearms is probably another Straw Man fallacy, for many reasons, some of which have already been stated.

Since it's so easy to just get a straight, smooth barrel with reasonably round, well fitting paint, it's fairly easy to get close to the "optimum" accuracy of a paintball gun, which isn't really even that great to begin with due to the inherent nature of the projectiles.

On the other hand, I tend to think of paintball as simply a game of nerves. You have to make the right decisions on the field while under fire, hunched down in some uncomfortable position, wearing some pretty uncomfortable stuff, while probably fighting off fatigue or lactic acid buildup. Is now a good time to post on this guy? When do I pop out of my bunker? Which side do I pop out of? Is this even a good bunker to begin with? Should I move? Should I cover a teammate? Is my opponent going to pop out of his bunker? Which side? Is he right handed or left handed? Do I snap 2 or 3 shots? It's a constant stream of tiny little decisions, and sitting there in the middle of all that while second-guessing your own equipment probably isn't going to help.

So if having confidence in a barrel calms your nerves and helps you make the right decisions -- which ultimately helps you make better choices as to your firing patterns, then I would say that has a significantly greater effect on your perceived accuracy than a measly 1 or 2 inches difference in grouping at 80'. Your gun's accuracy hasn't changed much, but since you're making the right decisions, you're putting yourself in the right places to get the eliminations.

Confidence can of course go too far though (there's that law of diminishing returns again). It starts off with hyperbole, leads to all kinds of silly myths, and finally you wind up with people who just spout nonsense and logical fallacy.

[drg]

But the difference between your test and my test will be that I hold the barrel steady rather than clamping it... so in truth its not actually 4" grouping but somehow the small movement that my hands cause on the marker ended up perfectly counter acting every slight curve of the ball and gave a great 4" grouping...

Now I wish I had made a video of the test that day :(

You cannot counteract a random variation actively. So if a gun cannot shoot less than a 4" group completely stabilized (i.e. clamped), you will not be able to do it by hand repeatably.

Perhaps you can hit a 4" target at 100 feet eventually, but you will certainly not get a group on it even clamped unless you ignore some outlier shots.

You 1) are underestimating how far 100 feet is and 2) are mentally blocking out the shots that don't hit the intended target.

[SCpoloRicker]

Why is this continuing to be debated? It's pretty clear...

[Indignant]

i thought so too...



boomstick, duh

[SCpoloRicker]

boomstick

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/8080/boomstick.jpg

[dark blade]

You cannot counteract a random variation actively. So if a gun cannot shoot less than a 4" group completely stabilized (i.e. clamped), you will not be able to do it by hand repeatably.

Perhaps you can hit a 4" target at 100 feet eventually, but you will certainly not get a group on it even clamped unless you ignore some outlier shots.

You 1) are underestimating how far 100 feet is and 2) are mentally blocking out the shots that don't hit the intended target.

im not saying i can do it on command, and i know for a fact that it was 100 feet because i measured it out. and i know that i cannot actively counteract it on purpose seeing as each shot is random. What i am saying is that i somehow just happened to be moving at just the right direction and speed to counteract each shot that i took (not on purpose) and got a 4" group while shooting at a 5' tall and 4' wide bunker in a chrono area my buddy made in his backyard.



so effectively i cannot do it on command but i have done it and am still going to make a video to see if i can repdroduce it.

[Miscue]

Years and years later... people still haven't figured this out. :p