Smaller Balls are you ready?

[Beemer]

50 Caliber Revolution

50 Caliber Paintball - it's here, it's the future.

Richmond Italia has once again cranked the wheels of evolution around one more time, and focussed his attention on one of our sport’s prevailing problems.

Every now and then, rarely in fact, a wind of change blows across the face of paintball and we are witness to a new horizon, now is just such a time.
Richmond Italia has once again cranked the wheels of evolution around one more time, and focussed his attention on one of our sport’s prevailing problems.

But it’s a bit more sophisticated than just charging less for paintballs; he has engineered a new paintball with an improved flight trajectory that means they fly farther and more accurately.
The historic problem with 50 calibre paintballs was getting them to break consistently; Richmond was obviously aware of this problem and set about engineering a ball that not only broke convention but also broke consistently.
How did he do this?
He headed up a think tank that’s brief was, ‘Engineer a paintball that’s inexpensive, accurate, flies further and breaks on contact’.
His team spent many months tackling their brief and after extensive testing and prototyping, they have produced a ball that finally satisfied the entire spectrum of Richmond’s vision.
The results are an evolutionary step forward; A new 50 caliber paintball has been born, and that paintball is now being shot right into the heart of our sport....................

..............In the past he has worked closely with Billy and Adam Gardner at Smart Parts and within a few short hours of explaining his new vision to them, they were signed up and had agreed to adapt a selected range of their own markers to be engineered so they can fire this new caliber ball.

It was imperative Richmond aligned himself with marker manufacturers who could do the job and who better than the people who bought us the Shocker and Ion and so many more of our sport’s great markers, Billy and Adam Gardner of Smart Parts stepped up to the 50 caliber plate with no hesitation whatsoever.

The new era of 50 calibre paintball means cheaper paint for the paintballer, it means hundreds more paintballs in the loader, it means thousands more balls in your pots, it means a more accurate flight path, it means it shoots further and all this with the same marking characteristics as the original 68 caliber balls.
Never before in the history of our sport have so many of its problems been so positively affected; after all, you ask any baller what he wants and they would answer, ‘I want a cheaper and a more accurate paintball’, it seems in one fell swoop Richmond has revolutionised our sport once again.

More news will become available as time goes by but rest assured people, this revolution is here to stay, and it’s here to play.

Full release here...........http://www.p8ntballer-forums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=122804

http://www.gimilsim.com/

[DanMan]

Man, I am split on this one. On one hand I would love to have cheaper paint, but on the other having to buy all new stuff? I can only hope that 50 and 68 cal are used side by side for a long while before 68 is totally phased out.

[BiNumber3]

indeed, a new bolt n new barrels would have to be made for automags i'd think, n id rather not have to let go of my mags for sucha reason.

[Looper]

Hey Beemer... what does ASTM say about 50 cal?

Inquiring minds, like mine, want to know... :cheers:

[Reiner]

How do you think new players will react to twice as many paintballs in the air? Or does everyone think players will just spend half as much on paint instead of shooting twice as much as history has shown us happens when prices drop? Will they be thrilled?

[drewkroeker]

"who could do the job and who better than the people who bought us the Shocker and Ion and so many more of our sport’s great markers"

LMFAO!!!
I know of one guy who could do it better than SP, and his first name starts with T and his last name starts with K.

As a previous poster mentioned in this thread, most of us have too much invested in our current gear to switch over to a completely different paint size. There would have to be a noticeable performance difference to get me to switch.

[Beemer]

Hey Beemer... what does ASTM say about 50 cal?

Inquiring minds, like mine, want to know... :cheers:


Not a thing. Makes ya wonder dont it? This is what they say now.............


3.3 Maximum Weight—The paintballs shall not weigh more
than 3.5 g.
3.4 Fill Color Limitations—The paintballs shall not contain
fill material with a color mimicking that of human blood.
3.5 Diameter of Paintball—The diameter of the paintball as
measured both polar and at the seam shall measure between
16.5 mm (0.650 in.) and 18 mm (0.709 in.).


Cant really do any math till we know exactly how much the 50cal ball weighs.

[Ninjeff]

oh please.......

give me a break with this nonsense......

[drg]

I not only dislike this change, I will actively boycott any company that tries to force it on me.

[Weber]

i think its not going to change much, whole companies would have to be changed for a single thing and paintball is has been and will be "hindered" to the 68 because of one major thing, it would be far to costly to make EVERY ONE to change just for a new idea.

i think however lower price changes would be nice but i cant see why they wouldnt try to make a cheaper 68 round instead of a 50 cal round, in my opinion this could go two ways, it could catch on in the speedball area and then the first strike rounds might get a grip in the woods then as well, but i really think its not going to spread to the whole community because its to groundbreaking, maybe if one or two companies choose to pay royalties for the 50cal maker scene from sp but i doubt it highly.

[GoatBoy]

"We sat down with the two biggest retards in the industry, showed them some PowerPoint slides which had nothing but pictures of money in them, and had them instantly signed up to our vision."




You know what revolution I'd like to see?




DOCUMENTED, VERIFIABLE, REPRODUCIBLE, DATA.

[rx2]

You know what revolution I'd like to see?




DOCUMENTED, VERIFIABLE, REPRODUCIBLE, DATA.

Blasphemy! There is no room for facts in paintball. That is crazy talk, sir - crazy talk!

[Lohman446]

LOL - funny, how many people like stupid little cosmetic changes and then when something that will allow there style of play to be better (including accuracy + more paint volume) they panic. Come on, go to your local field, see just how many markers are more than 3 years old anyways. Most people will phase this in rather quickly if some "agg" team supports it.

[BigEvil]

My balls are small enough already, thank you very much.

[Raven001]

hmmm, where did I put that Tippman SMG and are the clips still usable?

[cockerpunk]

DOCUMENTED, VERIFIABLE, REPRODUCIBLE, DATA.

me too, thats why i simply decided to do it myself.

[chafnerjr]

My balls are small enough already, thank you very much.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Seriously though... really? I call shenanigans right now!

[punkncat]

There has been a huge debate over this on MCB as well. Either they made the paintball heavier to improve its flight characteristics, or it is the same old thing it always was. If it is heavier, it is thus less safe as it will impact in a smaller area with more force. If it is the same, it is as inaccurate as we remember.
This is a simple case of overabundant hype in order to "attempt" to be able to squeeze a few more pennies out of the roll of gelatin they make these things out of.

[Dark Side]

This is a simple case of overabundant hype in order to "attempt" to be able to squeeze a few more pennies out of the roll of gelatin they make these things out of.


And that is why SP was the perfect company to work with. :ninja:

Every field I play has plenty of markers 3 years and older. All of my Mags and Cockers make up a small share of them.

[malJohann]

Cheer up, this could be the downfall of SP, one bad decision in a struggling economy can have a roll-on effect.

[going_home]

This will go no where. The free market is fueled by sales. I don't believe there will be much if any demand for .50 cal paint or markers, at least not enough to be profitable. Just my two cents.

[MeÐiCX]

Cheaper paint?? Yes and no. It's the same as buying a half gallon of milk vs a whole gallon. Yes it cost less than the full gallon but is it really cheaper?? I think not. Who the hell is gonna buy all new equipment to use the smaller bore paint?? Not me....

[Reiner]

This will go no where. The free market is fueled by sales. I don't believe there will be much if any demand for .50 cal paint or markers, at least not enough to be profitable. Just my two cents.Assuming the paintballs will actually function OK (big assumption there), I don't think it will be all that difficult to market smaller, lighter, newer markers that will shoot ammo that only costs roughly half as much per shot.

It's much like people are willing to spend more for a similar car that is much cheaper to operate by being more fuel efficient. Yes the initial cost is more, but the long-term cost saving is worth it.

If I were new to the sport, knew nothing (some may think that is true anyway :) ), went into a paintball store and was offered a smaller lighter, newer version of a marker that shoots paintballs that cost half as much, I'd probably be listening to the salesman to hear what he has to say about it.

[Reiner]

Cheaper paint?? Yes and no. It's the same as buying a half gallon of milk vs a whole gallon. Yes it cost less than the full gallon but is it really cheaper?? I think not. Who the hell is gonna buy all new equipment to use the smaller bore paint?? Not me....
It's cheaper per shot or ball, not weight or volume. But I never calculate how much paint I've shot by weight or volume. It's always by the number of balls (and of course, total cost).

[Stayhuge]

there are already .43 caliber markers by RAP4, and they haven't seemed to catch on like fire. I think that in this economy, the last thing that people are going to want to do is throw away all of their paintball supplies and start buying $500-1000 markers from scratch. just my 2c

[Miltonyz]

I don't see how the .50 caliber ball is going to be a lot cheaper then the 68. I don't have access to the numbers obviously but the raw material costs are probably the cheapest part of making a paintball. Of course now that I think about it shipping costs might go down as you can pack more balls per truckload. Think about with your pop products. A two-liter is close to a bottle of pop in price and sometimes cheaper. That is because for Pepsi or Coke the raw materials are so cheap the expense to them is more about fixed costs and overhead.

I would like to see some numbers about how they actually fly better.

[Smoothice]

This is what i'm going to do...

Nothing. Until I start seeing actual prices and actual proof that these fly better.

Once that information is out there then I will start thinking about how to convert my existing arsenal over to .50 cal. But only thinking.

Until the cost of my current .68 cal paintballs go up due to decreased sales and phasing out I will continue to shoot .68 cal.

When prices go up on .68 cal paintballs I will start making what is needed to convert my mags and cockers. Luckily I know a few guys that could design and manufacture such products.

I will not put 1 extra penny into any paintball marker manufacturers pocket. Unless AGD themselves produces a conversion kit.

:cheers:

[mt84]

Now maybe I'll be able to take this out the field

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p200/mt84/cdn-Crossman3357.jpg

:cool:

[chinstrap]

I fail to see how a move away from already-established economies of scale would produce a lower-priced product.

I'd think the fixed costs of manufacturing are what's baked into that $0.02/ball, not the shell and fill.


Seriously...how much do wholesale gelatin and fish oil cost?

[Reiner]

I don't see how the .50 caliber ball is going to be a lot cheaper then the 68. I don't have access to the numbers obviously but the raw material costs are probably the cheapest part of making a paintball. Of course now that I think about it shipping costs might go down as you can pack more balls per truckload. Think about with your pop products. A two-liter is close to a bottle of pop in price and sometimes cheaper. That is because for Pepsi or Coke the raw materials are so cheap the expense to them is more about fixed costs and overhead.They will be cheaper because they will sell them cheaper.

From the Paintball Business Journal:

"We've been talking to several people involved (but unnamed for now) that are saying a move to 50 caliber could almost double the number of balls you'll get in a case of paint, with only a $1 or $2 increase in price"

[cockerpunk]

the issue really is can they compete with 68 cal?

if they are made heavier then the muzzle velocity can't be raised but they will likely have superior ballistic performance to 68 cal. but then the issue is how to make them heavier, add something to the shell or fill? idk ...

more then likely though i think they will be the same density as normal paintballs and thus be lighter. this means that even if you raise the muzzle velocity of the ball to give each the same kinetic energy, the smaller ball will still lose speed faster, and vortex shedding will have a larger effect on accuracy. the low mass means that everything effects it alot more.

that means that 50 cal will not have the range or accuracy of the 68 cal we all use.

so what then? a team using 68 cal might be paying more per shot, but they will be at a serious advantage compared to the 50 cal, much like how the first strike rounds might be super expensive but they make normal paintballs look pitiful. so in a tournament situation your going to want the extra performance of the 68 over the 50, and in woodsball you are really gonna want the extra performance of the 68 over the 50 again.

so that means you either need to make the tournament field smaller (again!) or make a whole division that only 50 cal is used in.

now the one place they do make sense is for rec ball and private groups. but the issue here is that to capture that market, fields will need to convert over 50 cal from there fleets of 98s, a5s, sp1/vibe .. to something that uses 50 cal. some fields (even the smaller ones) have 100 or more of those guns.

[GroovYChickeN 2.o]

Really what is all the fuss about guys. Just because they are going to start making 50 cal stuff doesn't mean they will stop making 68 cal. If this catches on it will take a number of years to filter down to every local field. Also, why cant both exist at the same time. It's pantball, if someone wants to shoot 50 cal at me instead of 68 cal I don't care. I will stick with 68 cal for now because that's what I have. If it moves in the direction of 50 cal and I see some nice pumps being made for it, yeah I'll make the jump. All in all, don't get your panties in a bunch, it's not that big of a deal.

[Miltonyz]

They will be cheaper because they will sell them cheaper. From the Paintball Business Journal: "We've been talking to several people involved (but unnamed for now) that are saying a move to 50 caliber could almost double the number of balls you'll get in a case of paint, with only a $1 or $2 increase in price" Reply With Quote

Ok but my question was how are they selling the cheaper? It seems that their costs won't change a ton for the manufacturers so are they going to take less profit per ball and hope to make it up in the volume? Or are the costs of these balls significantly cheaper for the manufacturer somehow?

[Reiner]

Ok but my question was how are they selling the cheaper? It seems that their costs won't change a ton for the manufacturers so are they going to take less profit per ball and hope to make it up in the volume? Or are the costs of these balls significantly cheaper for the manufacturer somehow?
I assume the manufacturing will be considerably cheaper. Raw materials will be cut considerably (volume is only about 40% of the .68 balls). I'm sure the machines will be able to be re-tooled to spit considerably more paintballs out per hour. It's going to cost about the same to ship a case of 4-5,000 paintballs as a case of 2,000 .68 calibre. Packaging cost per ball will be cut in half. I don't see why they wouldn't be considerably cheaper to manufacture, package and ship.

[Watcher]

.50 would be better for pistols and such, but how am I to convert my Automag, Autococker, Tippmann, Phantom, and Trracer from .68 when the switch is finally and eventually made?

And why do I see DesertEagle modeled pistols as commonplace?

[Lohman446]

One of the killers of new paintball marker sales is - well lack of need. The fact of the matter is if we are going to cap the ROF the Vision shockers from 2003 are competetive with the Shockers produced today (or whatever is produced). The old Egos are competetive. People do not NEED to upgrade to be competetive.

If we can find a competetive advantage to changing paintball size (or manufacture one in the minds of the agg kiddies) than we can "force" everyone who wants to be competetive to transfer over.

Worse, what if we can convince its a safety issue. I would assume here they are using the same mass in a smaller ball for improved flight characteristics and thus there is no safety change (or minimal). However, if I could convince insurance companies and field owners that there was a direct safety increase with smaller balls I could force a conversion.

The good news is this is not the track taken. Even if they are successful in marketing .50 they will probably patent it so tightly that not everyone will switch over. This will cause multiple calipers to be available.

I mean, the advent of the .40 does not mean that I can't buy 9MM ammo when I go to shoot. There is no reason we cannot expect to find both readily available IF they succeed from the marketing side.

[Doobie]

Since they are the only manufacturer of said paintballs and most fields are FPO, they would have to sign up a lot of fields to buy the paint and provide guns to shoot it. Lots of fields have contracts with other paint manufactures as well. They are in for an uphill battle.

[Lohman446]

Since they are the only manufacturer of said paintballs and most fields are FPO, they would have to sign up a lot of fields to buy the paint and provide guns to shoot it. Lots of fields have contracts with other paint manufactures as well. They are in for an uphill battle.

I don't think a lot of fields are contractually obligated to any manufacturer. If a field can buy these cheaper they might actually encourage them to use them.

That being said. Are fields going to be able to get people to shoot more paint to make up for the cheaper prices. Margins being what they are if amount of paint shot stays the same it would lead fields to not switch. 30% profit @ $30 a case (cost) is a whole lot better than 30% at $15 a case (cost). Numbers are for example only. If I am going to sell 100 cases a week I would make more $$ selling the higher cost paint. Using the numbers above $450 vs $900. I don't think we can increase the amount shot much more than it is now, so the "economics of scale" argument is out.

[insixdays777]

Field owners be prepared to pay higher insurance premiums to accommodate a more expansive policy for these new .50s....

[maniacmechanic]

This is what i'm going to do...

Nothing. Until I start seeing actual prices and actual proof that these fly better.

Once that information is out there then I will start thinking about how to convert my existing arsenal over to .50 cal. But only thinking.

Until the cost of my current .68 cal paintballs go up due to decreased sales and phasing out I will continue to shoot .68 cal.

When prices go up on .68 cal paintballs I will start making what is needed to convert my mags and cockers. Luckily I know a few guys that could design and manufacture such products.

I will not put 1 extra penny into any paintball marker manufacturers pocket. Unless AGD themselves produces a conversion kit.

:cheers:

In total agreement !!! :shooting: :shooting:



I assume the manufacturing will be considerably cheaper. Raw materials will be cut considerably (volume is only about 40% of the .68 balls). I'm sure the machines will be able to be re-tooled to spit considerably more paintballs out per hour. It's going to cost about the same to ship a case of 4-5,000 paintballs as a case of 2,000 .68 calibre. Packaging cost per ball will be cut in half. I don't see why they wouldn't be considerably cheaper to manufacture, package and ship.

I would have thought the other way , especially with start up costs , if they have the machines , they will only have to build new dies for all thier machines , R & D , testing , advertisment , patent rights , ect. ect. , think of the costs , then you have to pay the Lawyers
Then you have to retool all the marker companys , even a CNC machine , has to have someone to write all the new code for the machines , mega bucks , the smaller guys would Probley fold
" If volume is only about 40% of the .68 balls " , I would have thought a 50 cal ball would be only 34% smaller , therefor only saving 34% not 60%
Shipping there you could " save " money , your shipping the same weight but apr. 680 more paintballs , so the box would be the same size , " if " it were bigger i'm sure they will charge more or you will get a case of 2000 for the same price as your paying now
The way I see it is , the only way to turn this into a money maker , would be to be the ONLY one manufacturing the markers and paint & then get 68 cals. outlawed

[GoatBoy]

If you wanted to strongarm the paintball industry and use anti-competitive practices (say, for instance, selling products at a significantly lower price than cost just to put your competition out of business), who would be the first people you would go talk to?

Who has pockets deep enough for such behavior, as well as a historical desire to do such things to the industry?

Without data, that's all I can see coming out of this.

They should have released the data first, not a press release which is basically one long "Appeal to Authority" fallacy.



Taking the press release at face value:

My impression is that they will make the .50 cal ball proportionally heavier than a .68cal ball at 3.5g or whatever. (I wonder if I need to break out Dynamic Similitude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Similitude_(model)) to calculate the performance increase.)

Since they made reference to paint breaking being the "main problem", I figure they scored, segmented, or otherwise weaken the shell in some way to make it break easier. Maybe like that nub on the FS rounds if I recall. Or maybe dimpled paintballs. Who knows.

The safety argument will then come from this enhanced shell. Since the shell is designed to break easier, more energy is dissipated into splattering the paint than into a human body. It's the inverse of why paintball bounces tend to hurt more than ones that break.

The whole process for making these new paintballs is going to be patented, and someone's going to try to have a monopoly on it or something related to it. Return to the top of this post.

[thejere]

Seriously...how much do wholesale gelatin and fish oil cost?

I think you mean snake oil :rolleyes:

They can fly further unless you change the muzzle velocity because Issac Newton force upon us the laws of physics. Disagree? I'll out science you in a heart beat.

The trouble is everyone shoots .68 cal, they have barrels, markers, hoppers, squeegees, condoms all sized for this. Its the same reason you wouldn't introduce 50hz electronics in the States.

[Lohman446]

I think you mean snake oil :rolleyes:

They can fly further unless you change the muzzle velocity because Issac Newton force upon us the laws of physics. Disagree? I'll out science you in a heart beat.

The trouble is everyone shoots .68 cal, they have barrels, markers, hoppers, squeegees, condoms all sized for this. Its the same reason you wouldn't introduce 50hz electronics in the States.


Yeh, I disagree 100%

Because the PHYSICS of a .50 caliber ball are different than the PHYSICS of a .68 caliber ball. Less resistance might just equal that they fly further. That is part of PHYSICs isn't it?

[Beemer]

Disagree? I'll out science you in a heart beat.

Ok have at it.......

Heres what we got for size and Wt. on a 68 caliber.

3.3 Maximum Weight—The paintballs shall not weigh more
than 3.5 g.

3.5 Diameter of Paintball—The diameter of the paintball as
measured both polar and at the seam shall measure between
16.5 mm (0.650 in.) and 18 mm (0.709 in.).

I have to check on the joules value max that is allowed but the ft.lbs of force is like 12, iirc.

The problem is we dont know what the Wt. or intended velocity is to remain safe.

Back in the day of the 62cal SMG we could go up on velocity cause it weighed LESS. 325 to 350FPS.

If the 50cal weighs less I dont see it going FURTHER or more accurate at the same fps.

If you make the 50cal the same weight wouldnt you have to decrease the velocity to keep it safe?

On a side note show me a ball that weighs in at 3.5G today. The most I have seen in the past few years is 3.2G and most come in at 2.8 to 3.1

One thing for sure is you want the smallest heaviest ball you can get.

[Reiner]

One thing for sure is you want the smallest heaviest ball you can get.
For flight characteristics. Not to for being on the receiving end of. :)

[thejere]

@Lohma446

I think you mean the forces are different on the balls, the rules of PHYSICS don't change with caliber.
Here we go though:

Basic physics first (No Drag).
Standard Cartesian Coordinates, horizontal shot
forward travel of a paintball (D) = velocity(V) * time(t)
time(t) = 2 * height fired from (h) / acceleration do to gravity (g)
Solve for distance D = 2*V*h/g
forward travel is a function of velocity, height fired from, gravity, not the size, mass, color, etc of the paintball.

Lets bring in fluids:
Force from drag (Fd) = .5 * Coefficient of drag (Cd) * density of air (pa) * velocity squared (V^2) * frontal area (A)

Frontal area (A) = pi * r^2

deceleration due to drag (d) = Force from drag (Fd) / mass of paintball (m)
mass of paintball (m) = volume of a sphere (4/3 * pi * r^3) * density of paint (pb)

Lets assume most of the mass in a paintball is the paint so this will be the same for either paintball and lets take all things that don't change, everything but the radius of the paintball, and group them as constants. We end up with:

deceleration (d) = constants *r^2 /r^3 = constants / r

Lets compare the deceleration based on the radius of the two different size caliber paintballs.
deceleration of .50 caliber = 4*constants
deceleration of .68 caliber = 3*constants

So it would seem that .5 cal paintball, although having less of a force of drag acting on it, will decelerate quicker due to the reduced mass of the paintball.

Your rebuttal?

[Lohman446]

@Lohma446

I think you mean the forces are different on the balls, the rules of PHYSICS don't change with caliber.
Here we go though:

Basic physics first (No Drag).
Standard Cartesian Coordinates, horizontal shot
forward travel of a paintball (D) = velocity(V) * time(t)
time(t) = 2 * height fired from (h) / acceleration do to gravity (g)
Solve for distance D = 2*V*h/g
forward travel is a function of velocity, height fired from, gravity, not the size, mass, color, etc of the paintball.

Lets bring in fluids:
Force from drag (Fd) = .5 * Coefficient of drag (Cd) * density of air (pa) * velocity squared (V^2) * frontal area (A)

Frontal area (A) = pi * r^2

deceleration due to drag (d) = Force from drag (Fd) / mass of paintball (m)
mass of paintball (m) = volume of a sphere (4/3 * pi * r^3) * density of paint (pb)

Lets assume most of the mass in a paintball is the paint so this will be the same for either paintball and lets take all things that don't change, everything but the radius of the paintball, and group them as constants. We end up with:

deceleration (d) = constants *r^2 /r^3 = constants / r

Lets compare the deceleration based on the radius of the two different size caliber paintballs.
deceleration of .50 caliber = 4*constants
deceleration of .68 caliber = 3*constants

So it would seem that .5 cal paintball, although having less of a force of drag acting on it, will decelerate quicker due to the reduced mass of the paintball.

Your rebuttal?

Frankly, my rebuttal is that I intended to note that the diameter of the ball would effect the physics. Of course, I also assumed that the way they "fixed" the problems with 50 caliber was to keep the same weight as 68 so I left that constant, leaving the decrease in drag being the only variable and calling for further flight.

[Mechanic79]

the further they go the slower they go. like the flat line barrel. :shooting:

Also, why would further matter; tournament fields are so small already? :shooting:

.50 sounds like it would have a market in woodsball and for training purposes. :shooting:

But it will all come down to attorney's, patents, and/or possibly the free market. :shooting:

[Reiner]

.50 sounds like it would have a market in woodsball and for training purposes. :shooting:

Oh come on. I run a recreational (woodsball) field. Don't try to pawn them off on me.

[thejere]

@Lohman446

I'm just trying to play devil's advocate on this. I do not think that .68 or .50 cal is superior to one another is any sense except for the fact that .68 is what we already use, so why would every manufacture retool for .50 cal and every consumer abandon equipment to make the switch?

If we assume like you did that a .50 cal paintball will weigh the same as a .68 cal rather than assume the same density as I did you run up against two other issues:

1. Cost, specifically shipping. A .50 cal ball has about half the volume of a .68 cal allowing you to pack, roughly, twice as many into the same space. Assuming the same weight, a 4000 round case of .50 will weigh twice as much as a case of 2000 .68, adding to the shipping cost.

2. Safety. Kinetic energy is equal to 1/2 * mass * velocity squared. Same for either caliber. This energy will be dissipated over 40% less surface area on a players skin with a .50 cal ball. My first guess is you'd be breaking more skin or would have to turn down the velocity. Negating any supposed gain in velocity.

Lets put some numbers to this as well:
Lets say the furthest away you will realistically engage another play is 300ft. That gives your paintball about 1 second second of flight assuming you play at 300fps. You've got to lob those shots because gravity will put a level shot in the dirt in about 1/3 of a second (time = 2*height fired from/gravity). So for arguments sake, anything that will happen between the gun and hitting(or not) your target will take place in less than 1 second. Which begs the question, will there be a noticeable if we can reduce drag on the paintball and maintain its weight?
Shooting horizontally at 300 fps and assuming the paintballs weigh the same
the .50 cal goes about 3 ft further than the .68 cal (87ft v 84ft)
aiming upward about 20º (its arbitrary, I know)
the .50 cal goes about 10 feet further than the .68 cal (272ft v 262ft)

I do question your assumption of equal weight for various size paintballs since vegatable oil and gelatin both have a density of aroud 940kg/m^3, just shy of water at 1000kg/m^3. You'd need something twice as dense to have equal weight. The press release doesn't talk about new materials for paintballs so we can only speculate. Concrete has the right density but I see problems with that.

[Smoothice]

I'm no physisisisiscist....

Would a .50 cal ball require less air to get up to speed? Thus making a more air efficient marker.

Or does that depend on its weight more then size?

[deathbypaint1213]

I'm no physisisisiscist....

Would a .50 cal ball require less air to get up to speed? Thus making a more air efficient marker.

Or does that depend on its weight more then size?

I believe the 50 cal rounds are being designed with similar weight to a 68 cal (thicker fill). The heavier the object, the more force is needed to start/stop the object.

I think the 50 caliber rounds will affect the sport in both a positive and negative way. It will allow companies to produce more products, and increase competition. On the other hand, the last thing we would want to do is buy gear needed to shoot 50 cal (guns, barrels, etc).

[Frizzle Fry]

Uhhhhh....

PMI made a .55 cal version of their "Black Maxx" a few years back called the "Maxx55". Also, PCS (during the same era) did a version of their "US-5" (an a5 clone) in .55 cal as well called the "US-55". In both cases the paint was very cheap, the markers came with a case, and they spent two years on the market until players "shrugged" the products into oblivion. Nobody wanted the hassle it seemed, and the paint hurt like hell... Especially when it was old, which it inevitably was, because few people carried it. I've seen a couple fields who still have them because they bought a bunch for rentals and the paint dried up.

I've seen these US5 and Maxx55 kits for sale with barrel, hopper, etc for prices like $15 + shipping :rolleyes:

The only "small" paint that I've seen with any kind of reputation or following seems to be .43 cal because many pistols dating back to the early 2000s utilize them, as do shell ejecting milsim rifles by Rap4 and similar companies. They tend to be better made (the paint, not the markers necessarily) and I've shot them fairly successfully on fields that allow it.

[Beemer]

Post from Deep Blue


I think this thread died because everyone is stuck on the dimples, which have been shown to not work, when the real point is the surface roughness in general.

a paintball with some surface roughness should have less drag than a smooth paintball, given that it's reynolds number is high enough to be close to the transition between laminar and turbulent. The roughness can be very small and come in many forms, not just dimples.

Spin has nothing to do with why surface roughness decreases drag. I have never seen anything in fluid mechanics that ties the effects of roughness to spin, in fact I have seen evidence against it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v205/Leftystrikesback/SphereDrag.gif

this shows a smooth sphere and a sphere with a small wire (or possibly a thin depression) running around the front of it. The sphere on the right has a turbulent boundary layer and much less drag.

The keys here is that the sphere is not spinning (see the rod coming out the back to keep it stable), the roughness is small relative to the size of the sphere, and it is located before the point where separation would normally occur (separation occurs around 80 degrees from the front of the ball)

With dimples there can be many problems including poor contact between the paint and barrel. I don't know why dimples wouldn't work well, but they are not the only way to go achieve decreased drag on a sphere. something as small as the seam of the paintball, or a rough patch at the front of the paintball could cause the boundary layer to be transitioned to turbulent.

Someone mentioned lines scored longitudinally and laterally on the paint, this could be a good solution and one easily tested.

I think that increasing paintball range using this technology is possible and that it shouldn't be given up on, as it seems like it has (until it can be explained satisfactorily why it is not feasible)

A good explanation of the fluid mechanics involved can be found here (http://www.vu.union.edu/~scottg/Senior_Project/Theory%20and%20Analysis.htm) however keep in mind that the lift in his diagram is purely from the back spin shown on the golf ball.

And another.......


<img align="left" src="http://wings.avkids.com/Book/Sports/Images/golf_01_sma.gif"><img align="right" src="http://wings.avkids.com/Book/Sports/Images/golf_02_sma.gif">

The first one is the air flow over a smooth ball. The second one is air flow over a dimpled ball. The smooth ball has a larger area where the air seperates from the flow around the ball and it creates more drag. The more turbulent flow around the second ball has more air flow around the ball and less area where the air seperates from the air flow and starts swirling around and stuff like that, so less drag.

[thejere]

@Beemer

Your two quoted post make no reference to diameter. How do they advocate for either size?

The Reynolds number does help us make a fairly good estimation of drag but again seems to favor .68 cal over a .50 cal.

Reynolds = density * velocity * characteristic length / viscosity
The characteristic length would be the diameter of the paintball which is smaller for a .50 cal resulting in a lower reynolds and more drag due to laminar rather than turbulent flow.

If the argument is that the .50 cal are scored or roughed up in some way, why not score a .68 cal? Less retooling for manufactures and no equipment switches for players.

[Barsse]

Honestly, I think we're getting too hooked up on ballistics and physics to where it has little to do with the main point of paintball - FUN.

a) Paintballs are not meant to shoot far and straight. You want it - go join the army.
b) Typical field size is small enough tot he point, where the difference in drag on .68 vs .50 is really negligible, so why bother?
c) So you cna hit stuff at 100 yards? Do you often get a straight line of fire that long, and guys just stand open in the middle of the field or with their heads sticking out the bunkr waiting for your shot? Not on my field. We tend to need to run around, take cover, ambush, and bait them, and that's my favorite part.
d) Understanding how the paintball arches an curves flying from your particular marker is part of the game, part of the experience and part of the skill you need to practice. And an important one at that. you take hardships away - you lose the need to try to get better.
e) Camping always sucked and will suck for games, that last ~10-15 min, both paintball and online games. Even in scenarios - you need to rush the enemy. If the point is dead-on accuracy and range - game will be boring, with both sides in hide-outs waiting for someone to open up. Heard of trench warfare? Well, we don't have artillery, so it's just us.

CrapParts, First strike - I think they try to fix what's not broken. The game should remain a game, and a friendly at that, where, unline tourneys, opposing teams can sit and talk to each other after the game, instead of threatening and cursing after loss. Speeds and distances in paintball are far too small to require nearly as much effort in distance and accuracy as is being put into it. It's a sphere coming out of the tube, not hi--powered long-range ballistics. You want to get better with .68? - Don't change parts in your gun too often, and just PRACTICE with it, you wouldn't believe how well .68 flies in good and confident hands. :headbang:

[Lohman446]

CrapParts, First strike - I think they try to fix what's not broken. The game should remain a game, and a friendly at that, where, unline tourneys, opposing teams can sit and talk to each other after the game, instead of threatening and cursing after loss. :


Its been years since this has been the case as it is

[Ninjeff]

Its been years since this has been the case as it is


i disagree. I played a 3 man tourney today where everyone, from teh top team to the last place team treated each other with respect and dignity. Yea, it was for money, but y'know what? none of the players made that a priority....everyone was generous, and respectful, clean, and had a blast.

Good tourney ball is out there, you just have to look for it.

[DamianTC]

"The Sporting Goods Manufacturers Association estimates that over 5.4 million people played the game in the United States in 2007, with over 1.5 million playing at least 15 times" - Wikipedia, Paintball

It took us almost 30 years to get to this point. So basically how long do you think it will take for players and field owners to buy enough equipment to allow 5.4 million people to play with .50 guns? And you can't say that .50 will be the standard and then say that .68 will still be around as well. That would be a double standard.

Remember, this is only one company producing this... Doesn't every company say that their newest product is going to "change the game forever"??

In my opinion though, a sport is that sport for a reason. Change something, and its not that sport anymore. Somethings are a certain standard so its not too easy, Why are football fields 100 yards? Why are basketball hoops 10 feet high? I like the idea of having to reload after 200 rounds and if you see the other team around 300 feet away that you have to work your way to them rather than sitting there and just shooting.

I feel the advancement of paintball has been great over the last 30 years, but I also think its gone alittle too far. If I was the king of the world and everyone had to do as I say (including you) I would have drawn the line in about '03 or '04. Keep everything at that standard..

Just remember, you change something too much and people start calling it something else.. thats why some people play baseball, and some people play softball.

[malJohann]

..Just remember, you change something too much and people start calling it something else.. thats why some people play baseball, and some people play softball.

..or Paintball and Airsoft...

[Lohman446]

In my opinion though, a sport is that sport for a reason. Change something, and its not that sport anymore. Somethings are a certain standard so its not too easy, Why are football fields 100 yards? Why are basketball hoops 10 feet high? I like the idea of having to reload after 200 rounds and if you see the other team around 300 feet away that you have to work your way to them rather than sitting there and just shooting.

.

The mound height in baseball and softball have been changed repeatedly. The plate to rubber has been changed. The bat specifications have been changed.

The location of the goal posts in football have been changed. The forward pass. The two-point conversion. The very ball itself, ditto that in basketball.

[DamianTC]

The mound height in baseball and softball have been changed repeatedly. The plate to rubber has been changed. The bat specifications have been changed.

The location of the goal posts in football have been changed. The forward pass. The two-point conversion. The very ball itself, ditto that in basketball.

You are exactly right in your examples. Those are all examples of changes in sports. But think about everything you said: Batters can expect to see balls faster and in the strike zone more often with higher pitching mounds. The plate to rubber distance has increased. Bats went from metal to wood. The goal posts were moved back 10 yards. The abilty to catch a thrown ball down field while being defended upon, and the option to go for 2 rather than easily kick a 3 yarder.

All these changes were indeed added to a sport... but not to make the game any easier. They added more challenge to the game.

Now look at what paintball adds...

We started with 10 balls and 25 shots worth of air, now 200 balls and 1000 shots of air.
We might have carried 50 extra balls, now close to a 1000.
We all used to wear camo, Now we all stick out like sore thumbs.
Shoot and recock, now its semi or faster.
You can't shoot 10 balls a second? Just shoot 5 a second and ramping will take you up to 10.

I don't have to continue, we all know this. There are many more to list. Paintball has gotten easier over the years. No ofense to anyone, but thats why more kids play today when this used to be an adult game in the beginning.

[Lohman446]

I like what base equipment could represent far better anyways - pump play would be, to me, the new peak of the sport that allowed a much more even playing field, more athletecism, and far more interest.

But paintball is what it is....

At one point a batter did not walk until they had gotten 7 balls. Making it easier / or harder for the batter does the inverse to the pitcher. Games do change.

[Beemer]

I don't have to continue, we all know this. There are many more to list. Paintball has gotten easier over the years. No ofense to anyone, but thats why more kids play today when this used to be an adult game in the beginning.

Agreed but you left out the skill part at the end there. See how they did that? They took out the skill part with ramping so the demographic would change, and they reaped the windfall for the short term instead of thinking long term.

One shot one pull as fast as you can is now billyball, one shot every two seconds. :eek:
How many ions are they selling now???

[Lohman446]

Agreed but you left out the skill part at the end there. See how they did that? They took out the skill part with ramping so the demographic would change, and they reaped the windfall for the short term instead of thinking long term.

One shot one pull as fast as you can is now billyball, one shot every two seconds. :eek:
How many ions are they selling now???


I disagree that ramping was the cause of the demographic shift. The demographic shift happened well before ramping was widespread and frankly I would think it did not benefit the younger "faster finger" generation. Like ramping or not (I prefer it, even liking pump I don't think how fast you can wiggle the trigger should be a skill measured by the competition of paintball) we cannot lay the blame on it.

[Beemer]

Well a fast trig finger used to be a measured skill and meant somthing back in the day. :(

But lets talk about this new 50cal ball. Here is some info from the web.


I too did the math a long while back along with Tom Kaye and we came up with some interesting results but ..... a lot of us can sit down with a pencil and theorise with numbers and functions hanging out our *** and 'yes', mathematics can and does prove useful but the proof is in the practical pudding. And this particular pudding has a factor affecting it that nobody has yet introduced.

Whats the factor??


Richmond has overseen the development and production of these paintballs, which by the way, are being manufactured by Procaps. A heavy fill has already been developed which will satisfy the claims for an increased flight distance.

The fact there are claims of a more accurate ball can be easily understood when we look
at the ball's ballistic properties. It has a significantly reduced surface area (which of course
is the property of a squared function) and as such, will be less prone to wind turbulence.
And one other thing; because Richmond has increased the density of the paint, thus
giving us a heavier ball, this also increases the inertial value which has a two fold effect, it increases the ball's accuracy and distance shot when compared to a .5 calibre ball of a lesser weighted (less dense) fill.

So smaller ball with heavy more dense fill. :eek:

Still need to know TWO things, the actual weight and intended muzzle velocity to calculate the numbers for safety.

Like I said before, you want the smallest heaviest ball you can get. :D

[DamianTC]

You can't put the blame on one thing. I believe its a building up of what I posted earlier: paintball has gotten too advanced for its own good. And again, you can't put the blame on any one thing or person. I remember in my first year or 2 of playing back in '96 or '97, I was at my field with my VM-68. Everyone would have simular type blow back guns like spyders, pro-lites, raptors, etc. There was always the one or two guys that had an Automag RT or a Shocker. No one wanted to encounter them on the field, but no one would also mind if they was on their team. I remember clearly back then that those 2 guys easily made a difference in the game and was an obvious factor. I could have never imagined playing in a game where every player had an RT or a Shocker. Now look today, there are guns that shot almost 3 times as fast as them. What more do we need?

[Beemer]

Now look today, there are guns that shot almost 3 times as fast as them. What more do we need?

50cal balls that weigh 3.2g at 300fps. :wow:

I think we should just play with FN303s. :D

[Lohman446]

Well a fast trig finger used to be a measured skill and meant somthing back in the day. :(



True, which to me was a ridiculous skill to be advantageous.

What skill set does the game measure:

Accuracy, stealth, cunning, movement, and a really fast finger...

[DamianTC]

Well just remember.. we give up .68 balls. we give up our automags.

I'm not supporting .50 balls

[Smoothice]

Now look today, there are guns that shot almost 3 times as fast as them. What more do we need?

You need to take them out with a pump...

Show all the kiddies skill isn't how much paint you can shoot.

[Beemer]

68 will be around for a Loooooooong time.

[vf-xx]

You need to take them out with a pump...

Show all the kiddies skill isn't how much paint you can shoot.

No kidding. Last time I was out, there was a guy menacing me with his Sniper II. Gah, got tired of being gogged by him.

[cockerpunk]

Well a fast trig finger used to be a measured skill and meant somthing back in the day. :(

But lets talk about this new 50cal ball. Here is some info from the web.



Whats the factor??



So smaller ball with heavy more dense fill. :eek:

Still need to know TWO things, the actual weight and intended muzzle velocity to calculate the numbers for safety.

Like I said before, you want the smallest heaviest ball you can get. :D

where did you get that second quote?

[DamianTC]

68 will be around for a Loooooooong time.

You know most other paintball producing companies don't limit themselves to only making paintballs. The .68 ball has other lifes too. You know those pampering gift sets that wifes and GFs love? Those liquid soap balls you throw in your tub: .68 caliber.

I seen that on one of the shows on discovery on how they made paintballs I believe.

Anyone know any other uses of a paintball shell that is non-paintball related?

[Beemer]

where did you get that second quote?

http://www.p8ntballer-forums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=122804&page=2 Post 60

[AGD]

Hello Everyone,

Well I don't come to the forum for a few days while I am chasing dinos and look what pops up.

First of all, I have actually PLAYED with 50 cal back in the day using Budd's Sniper. In the 80's 50 cal held the same hope it does today, a way to sell cheaper paint and get more of it in the gun. Back then it was a double bonus since a 12 gram would fire a whole lot more 50's than 68's. As you can imagine, the 50 had piss poor accuracy and didn't break. It was quickly given up on along with 62 cal. promoted by Tippmann.

My read of the story tells me something different that I will SPECULATE on. Richmond sold his company from what I understand, and likely has a specific non-compete. The 50 cal ball probably gets around this and this could be the major motivation. I know personally because we have the same thing between Pepper Ball and FN, in our case the weight of the ball makes the difference.

I have to think that as you have already speculated, they took the ability to make fragile paint and mixed in a heavy fill to get a small 3.3 gram paintball. This should in fact be more accurate and fly farther at the same velocity. The reduction in frontal area is a big plus and the issues with a smaller ball and vortex shedding should not negate all of those gains.

The big trick will be to see if they break well. With a 50 you are distributing the energy no matter what over a smaller area. The smaller shape of the ball makes it inherently harder to break all things being equal. I don't think you can go much thinner in the paint shell and still be able to seal it together so they are probably making the shell tensile strength weaker. By my estimations they will hurt more with 3.3 grams at 300 fps.

The fill will absolutely be the most challenging part hands down. I calculated that a 50 has .07 cu inch of fill against the 68 at .16. So a bit better than 2-1. In order to make a heavier 50, you have to come up with a NON-TOXIC fill that's TWICE as heavy. This is no easy task. Most liquids hover around a specific gravity of 1-1.5 ish. There are liquids that get up to 2.0 but they are all toxic that I know of. We used liquids to 3.0 in the early 90's when we were investigating paintball accuracy and I still have the stuff today because you can't throw it away.

So here is the specific problem the way I see it. In order to up the weight of the fill you have to put some type of particle in it. Ground rock, powdered metal (bismuth) etc. We went down this road, the problem was that we could never inject a slurry through a needle without the needle plugging up no matter what we did. Eventually we gave up and put the powder in first and the fluid in after. Today's gelatin machines absolutely depend on a needle injecting the fluid into the ball as it pinches off the seam. I am dying to see how they accomplish this but Richmond has some pretty smart people around him.

Other problems you don't think about are things like the size of the holes in the mask. A 50 can squeeze through a pretty small hole in a rubber mask guard. My question is who is going to build a motorized hopper for these guns???

The can fit way more holes in the drum of the gelatin machine so the output per hour per machine will probably be more than double having an impact on cost. The fill has to add to the price so we will see how it shakes out. Remember to calculate the price per POUND of 50 vs 68 paintballs to see if there was really an economic advantage.

In the final equation my personal opinion is that its a bad idea for paintball only because it puts us that much closer to airsoft. If cheaper smaller balls are a good idea, why not get the cheapest smallest balls you can find (airsoft)? We already made the guns look mil-sim and hands down the airsoft guns look cooler and go full auto. So I don't personally understand it but hey, Richmond made WAY more money in paintball than I ever did so he must see things I don't.

My final comment. Everyone seems to agree that the paintball industry has been in trouble for some time. If I was god-of-paintball and wanted to get the industry going. I would get all the existing manufacturers together and force them to agree to licensing anyone their patents for 5 years for a dollar. This would bring a flurry of new businesses back into the market and you would have a flood of new products and cool ideas. In my opinion, that would help paintball more than anything.

AGD

[Beemer]

My final comment. Everyone seems to agree that the paintball industry has been in trouble for some time. If I was god-of-paintball and wanted to get the industry going. I would get all the existing manufacturers together and force them to agree to licensing anyone their patents for 5 years for a dollar. This would bring a flurry of new businesses back into the market and you would have a flood of new products and cool ideas. In my opinion, that would help paintball more than anything.

Classic, epic, historic post. You didnt happen to stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night did ya?

Well the problem was only a few just wanted a slice of the pie and thought long term like you.

[cockerpunk]

http://www.p8ntballer-forums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=122804&page=2 Post 60

thank you.

as you probably read in my earlier post, all bets are off if they made them heavier. as tom was speculating, its gonna be hard to make them as heavy as paintballs, but if it can be done, then it will outperform 68. if its to light however, like 43, 50, and 62 before it, it wont deliver.

IMO the way to fix the industry is to make a sustainable business model supported with good marketing. the current trend seems to make these super low end guns that are super fast, and then market them to young kids via winning pro teams. IMO this is an unsustainable model because 14 year old kids have an attention span of 2 years in paintball. in my decade of playing i have seen just about 5 generations of young talented tournament players, rise to the top, then burn out and leave. so the sport required essentially massive growth, like a tobacco company if you will to keep the guns selling the companies making money. what we really need is a model that supports and fosters life long players.

[Reiner]

thank you.

as you probably read in my earlier post, all bets are off if they made them heavier. as tom was speculating, its gonna be hard to make them as heavy as paintballs, but if it can be done, then it will outperform 68.
Outperform in flight characteristics...yes! They will also outperform in pain inducing characteristics...not too excited about that.


what we really need is a model that supports and fosters life long players.Don't agree with everything you say, but I totaly agree with that statement. The model we have evolved to in the paintball industry sucks as far as fostering long life players (especially the ones that only last a day).

[Ninjeff]

Hello Everyone,

Well I don't come to the forum for a few days while I am chasing dinos and look what pops up.

First of all, I have actually PLAYED with 50 cal back in the day using Budd's Sniper. In the 80's 50 cal held the same hope it does today, a way to sell cheaper paint and get more of it in the gun. Back then it was a double bonus since a 12 gram would fire a whole lot more 50's than 68's. As you can imagine, the 50 had piss poor accuracy and didn't break. It was quickly given up on along with 62 cal. promoted by Tippmann.

My read of the story tells me something different that I will SPECULATE on. Richmond sold his company from what I understand, and likely has a specific non-compete. The 50 cal ball probably gets around this and this could be the major motivation. I know personally because we have the same thing between Pepper Ball and FN, in our case the weight of the ball makes the difference.

I have to think that as you have already speculated, they took the ability to make fragile paint and mixed in a heavy fill to get a small 3.3 gram paintball. This should in fact be more accurate and fly farther at the same velocity. The reduction in frontal area is a big plus and the issues with a smaller ball and vortex shedding should not negate all of those gains.

The big trick will be to see if they break well. With a 50 you are distributing the energy no matter what over a smaller area. The smaller shape of the ball makes it inherently harder to break all things being equal. I don't think you can go much thinner in the paint shell and still be able to seal it together so they are probably making the shell tensile strength weaker. By my estimations they will hurt more with 3.3 grams at 300 fps.

The fill will absolutely be the most challenging part hands down. I calculated that a 50 has .07 cu inch of fill against the 68 at .16. So a bit better than 2-1. In order to make a heavier 50, you have to come up with a NON-TOXIC fill that's TWICE as heavy. This is no easy task. Most liquids hover around a specific gravity of 1-1.5 ish. There are liquids that get up to 2.0 but they are all toxic that I know of. We used liquids to 3.0 in the early 90's when we were investigating paintball accuracy and I still have the stuff today because you can't throw it away.

So here is the specific problem the way I see it. In order to up the weight of the fill you have to put some type of particle in it. Ground rock, powdered metal (bismuth) etc. We went down this road, the problem was that we could never inject a slurry through a needle without the needle plugging up no matter what we did. Eventually we gave up and put the powder in first and the fluid in after. Today's gelatin machines absolutely depend on a needle injecting the fluid into the ball as it pinches off the seam. I am dying to see how they accomplish this but Richmond has some pretty smart people around him.

Other problems you don't think about are things like the size of the holes in the mask. A 50 can squeeze through a pretty small hole in a rubber mask guard. My question is who is going to build a motorized hopper for these guns???

The can fit way more holes in the drum of the gelatin machine so the output per hour per machine will probably be more than double having an impact on cost. The fill has to add to the price so we will see how it shakes out. Remember to calculate the price per POUND of 50 vs 68 paintballs to see if there was really an economic advantage.

In the final equation my personal opinion is that its a bad idea for paintball only because it puts us that much closer to airsoft. If cheaper smaller balls are a good idea, why not get the cheapest smallest balls you can find (airsoft)? We already made the guns look mil-sim and hands down the airsoft guns look cooler and go full auto. So I don't personally understand it but hey, Richmond made WAY more money in paintball than I ever did so he must see things I don't.

My final comment. Everyone seems to agree that the paintball industry has been in trouble for some time. If I was god-of-paintball and wanted to get the industry going. I would get all the existing manufacturers together and force them to agree to licensing anyone their patents for 5 years for a dollar. This would bring a flurry of new businesses back into the market and you would have a flood of new products and cool ideas. In my opinion, that would help paintball more than anything.

AGD

Tom, i wish you came around more often.

[dark blade]

i wish you would adopt me haha. You're tests and data from the past have since inspired me to do my own research into the sport and im glad you still have input for us even though you are not currently owning a company :(.

god i wish AGD would make a huge comeback and get rid of SP

[DamianTC]

what we really need is a model that supports and fosters life long players.

Its funny you say that because it immediately made me think about when I played my first games at 15. 90% of the other players were in their mid-20's, 30's, and 40's. I used to read APG around that same time and it was the same way. Everything I seen about paintball back then, there was an elder figure to look up to.

It makes me smile when I go to the field now, and the young kids come over and ask me about the Emag. I must have shown how the warp works and given the Level 10 finger test about a 1,000 times nows.. And it never gets old. When you realize that the 5 minute talk you had with a 13 or 14 year old and he gave you more attention than he normally gives his teacher, you might have just got another player hooked on paintball for life. Its a good feeling to help grow our sport

[drg]

I'm surprised at the number of people who think how fast someone shoots is a really important skill in paintball, to the point where electronic asisstance is to be bemoaned ad infinitum.

Even if all the rest of the claims pan out, there is one thing that will be a problem regardless ... less paint = smaller splat. IMO marking ability is one of the most important differences between low end and high end balls, and I doubt 50 cal will be able to mark even as well as low end paint.

[paullus99]

Great post Tom - sounds like there are quite a few technical issues that need to be solved to bring something like this to market without outrageous R&D fees attached.

In general, I'm seeing more players with pumps at every game I play - it seems to be a combination of cost (less paint), more of a challenge, and wanting to have more fun than just spraying paint.

Paintball is an industry in flux - suffering from a lot of its own prior successes, and also from the current state of the economy. The credit crunch is preventing new investments and companies from entering the market, the flurry of lawsuits by HK isn't helping, and the lack of any real innovation over the past few years has resulted in a fairly stale market.

Throwing in a new paint size, if it is adopted by a major manufacturer, is an attempt to create a downstream sales market - new markers, new equipment (like masks), but we'll see what the insurance companies say about it. Everything right now is designed around the safety specs for .68 - and I doubt many insurance companies are going to be excited about the sliding scale of safety issues that could result (as Tom pointed out regarding the masks).

[cockerpunk]

Great post Tom - sounds like there are quite a few technical issues that need to be solved to bring something like this to market without outrageous R&D fees attached.

In general, I'm seeing more players with pumps at every game I play - it seems to be a combination of cost (less paint), more of a challenge, and wanting to have more fun than just spraying paint.

Paintball is an industry in flux - suffering from a lot of its own prior successes, and also from the current state of the economy. The credit crunch is preventing new investments and companies from entering the market, the flurry of lawsuits by HK isn't helping, and the lack of any real innovation over the past few years has resulted in a fairly stale market.

Throwing in a new paint size, if it is adopted by a major manufacturer, is an attempt to create a downstream sales market - new markers, new equipment (like masks), but we'll see what the insurance companies say about it. Everything right now is designed around the safety specs for .68 - and I doubt many insurance companies are going to be excited about the sliding scale of safety issues that could result (as Tom pointed out regarding the masks).

yes, i see from an industry point of view the appeal of this kind of thing, esp from the gardner brothers. its a quick fix, make everyone buy new stuff. again, its not really a sustainable idea though, the selling frenzy if they do get railroaded down our throats will only last so long. the gardners invented the marketing model that i previously alluded to, the unsustainable model based on new 14 year old blood. so it makes perfect sense that they would come up with a such an idea and bring richmond in on it.

from a consumer standpoint, this top down influence has been felt long enough in the industry IMO. the grass roots movement bringing back mech and pump guns is in full swing and is as strong as ever. at LL fully 1/3 or more of the players i saw were playing with mechs or pumps. 5 years ago, i was often the only pump player at big games. and now the industry is listening, you have the azodin KP which is Taylor made for new pump players, and even bob long is talking about making a pump from his old millennium bodies.

instead of telling players what to use, give us what we want.

[UThomas]

In order to up the weight of the fill you have to put some type of particle in it. Ground rock, powdered metal (bismuth) etc

What would this due to broken paint in the breach? Sounds like this could chew up a delrin bolt - or at least that would be a consideration?

[Flycatchr]

from a consumer standpoint, this top down influence has been felt long enough in the industry IMO. the grass roots movement bringing back mech and pump guns is in full swing and is as strong as ever. at LL fully 1/3 or more of the players i saw were playing with mechs or pumps. 5 years ago, i was often the only pump player at big games.
my last two outings i played mostly with the airowgun. 50 paintballs max. :ninja:

[cockerpunk]

What would this due to broken paint in the breach? Sounds like this could chew up a delrin bolt - or at least that would be a consideration?

anything you add has to be cheap too ...

[Lohman446]

. Everything right now is designed around the safety specs for .68 - and I doubt many insurance companies are going to be excited about the sliding scale of safety issues that could result (as Tom pointed out regarding the masks).

Safety is not a buzzword that has driven any of the industry changes in the last few years IMO. Why start now

[Beemer]

So.......50cal ball at 3Grams at 300FPS = how many Ft. Lbs. of force?

[Chronobreak]

subscribing.

not much to say that hasnt been arleady, unles they have drasticaly changed how the 50cal balls shoot and break this is setup for failure before it begins

[DamianTC]

Do you know they make tiny paintballs for airsoft guns? and yet with all the benefits that would have like an actual marking showing a hit rather than playing totally on the honor system.. everyone who plays still uses the plastic BBs. Ask anyone who plays airsoft why that is..

[Reiner]

Do you know they make tiny paintballs for airsoft guns? and yet with all the benefits that would have like an actual marking showing a hit rather than playing totally on the honor system.. everyone who plays still uses the plastic BBs. Ask anyone who plays airsoft why that is..because war should be clean?

[Beemer]

So.......50cal ball at 3Grams at 300FPS = how many Ft. Lbs. of force?

My math aint great. I come up with 12.5 joules or 9.25 Ft. Lbs. Anybody else?

[deathbypaint1213]

Do you know they make tiny paintballs for airsoft guns? and yet with all the benefits that would have like an actual marking showing a hit rather than playing totally on the honor system.. everyone who plays still uses the plastic BBs. Ask anyone who plays airsoft why that is..

6mm paintballs jam like a ***** in airsoft guns. That is why airsofters do not use them.

[insixdays777]

Please help my poor math skills. So would these make markers more or less efficient? Less gas used or more per shot?

[txaggie08]

Do you know they make tiny paintballs for airsoft guns? and yet with all the benefits that would have like an actual marking showing a hit rather than playing totally on the honor system.. everyone who plays still uses the plastic BBs. Ask anyone who plays airsoft why that is..


because getting paint in your expensive AEG's hopup and mech box is a sure fire ticket to tearing it down and scrubbing it out? any other questions?

[insixdays777]

Paintball Rumor: Richmond buys into Smart Parts

July 10, 2009 by Justin

propaintball.com

Latest rumor in paintball news: Richmond Italia, inventor of Xball and .50cal paintball is rumored to have bought into Smart Parts. Read on for the official statement.

Rumor has it that Richmond Italia has bought an interest in Smart Parts. Richmonds Italia’s new company, G.I. Milsim, has been a big feature in paintball news lately as he is the man behind the new .50cal paintball format. Readers familiar with G.I. Milsim will note that the Gardner brothers (owners of Smart Parts) are partners in the new .50cal company, G.I. Milsim. Word that the three industry big-wigs have partnered up is one thing, but Richmond providing a cash infusion into one of the largest paintball manufactuers would be something else! With a new stack of cash and the low price valuations of many paintball business, the Gardners could very well be considering a new round of acquisitions to further solidify their position within the paintball industry.

With news this big, we figured we should go directly to the source and seek a confirmation. ProPaintball.com asked both Richmond and his PR team for an official statement. Official word: “No comment but they [the Gardners] are a major partner in GI Milsim.”


Wow...us .68ers might not have a choice. Could this be the beginning of a industry wide hostle strong arm take over to shoot SP's tiny balls?

[Mechanic79]

They can have fun on their .50 Cal Island!

[Lee]

i heard about this a couple of weeks ago and the my first thought was..." does anyone remember how bad .62 from the old smg's hurt?"

when i started out, standard fps was 300 for .68 (and they were much closer to .68 than paint you buy today) and .62 was 325 fps with the reasoning being that higher velocity was needed for the smaller ball to reliably break on impact, and it was still a good idea to try and hit a hard point (mask, pods, gun etc,) to ensure a break.

setting aside the technical stuff which frankly, i don't understand all too well, i think the "ouch" factor alone will hurt growth via new players.

my second thought was..."if .50 replaces .68, i'm retiring."
because frankly, i am not interested in replacing all my gear to conform to a new round.

third thought: "how many field operators can put out the upfront costs of equipment conversion and how many players will want to?"
that is the question that i would want answered before i went ahead with something like this.

possibly, the people involved with this are thinking of a gradual change over. provide less expensive material and over time it will become the norm and .68 paint and the equipment designed to utilize it will eventually be discontinued.

my humble .02. rays vs a's are on time to go :D

[DamianTC]

if nudity was allowed on this site.. I'd post a pic of two .68 caliber butt cheeks mooning you.... they aren't going anywhere :)

[secretweaponevan]

A .68 ball has 2.5 times the volume of paint as a .50 ball.

I hope the Gardner's bet the farm on .50. :tard: :tard: :tard:


Edit: Tom beat me to it and calculated volume on post 77.

[JaNordy]

I am sure someone from here or MCB will start making .68 balls after everything is changed to .50 and make a killing cornering the .68 market... :cheers:

[secretweaponevan]

I am sure someone from here or MCB will start making .68 balls after everything is changed to .50 and make a killing cornering the .68 market... :cheers:

I think all of us from MCB will just horde them all and build intricate wall racks to display them so we can photograph our collections to show how many we have on the internet.
:rofl:

[pillage]

Well, one would think the Brothers Gardner, would be a little more savy with their marketing. Sure they have some decent products, but they have given us the wonderful things like the magic box too, which was marketed with plenty of hype. Now just think about this, their whole new ad campaign could be summed up with this phrase. "Our Balls Are Smaller than the competition." Face it, most of the paintball demographic is male, and what man wants to been known for having little balls?

[211]

There are to many companies producing .68 cal for it to disappear just because SP has partnered with a single company to produce a "new" idea

[insixdays777]

Looks Dye has joined the Empire. Is there any hope for the Rebel Alliance? (http://www.propaintball.com/2009/08/dye-products-news/#more-4311)

Looks like we might have underestimated the power of Emperor Adam and Darth Billy. I bet the meeting went like this.

"OK Dye, you know the patents we have on clamping feednecks, electronic markers, ported barrels ect, ect. Join us now and we will spare your planet and not raise royalties or begin more patent suits. Embrace the .50cal side!"

Poor Dye should have rewatched Star Wars...we all know they still blow up Alderaan....

[cockerpunk]

dye has the spool valve patent, SP and dye made a deal to not sue each other.

[skipdogg]

Looks Dye has joined the Empire. Is there any hope for the Rebel Alliance? (http://www.propaintball.com/2009/08/dye-products-news/#more-4311)

Looks like we might have underestimated the power of Emperor Adam and Darth Billy. I bet the meeting went like this.

"OK Dye, you know the patents we have on clamping feednecks, electronic markers, ported barrels ect, ect. Join us now and we will spare your planet and not raise royalties or begin more patent suits. Embrace the .50cal side!"

Poor Dye should have rewatched Star Wars...we all know they still blow up Alderaan....


I dont like this one bit. At first I casually dismissed the .50 cal idea, and thought like an optimist that .50 could be the beginning of the end for Smart Parts world domination (meaning .50 cal would be such a flop and they would waste so much time and money that other companies could therefore make them much less relevant in the industry). But now I am actually worried. I hope this isnt the beginning of the end to .68 caliber paintball, and therefore AGD.

[snoopay700]

The idea won't hold. Most fields are field paint only, and i can assure you that until there is a vast majority of people using .50 cal guns fields won't pick up this paint for the few that have switched.

As for the current markers, the bolt needs to be redesigned, the bolt stroke, the breech, the barrel. It would be cheaper to get a new gun probably than to try to convert the dang things, not to mention mags would have a hard time converting (probably couldn't) where as stacked tube markers and such would just need a new bolt and sleeve, and detents, a new body would be much easier.

That being said you would require a whole new marker, and not many people would be willing to give up the markers they love for that, so it would likely be limited to the new players that are just joining. I really can't see this taking off.

And as for airsoft paintballs, they dont' break and the shell is gummy.

[Porschesales]

IF ITS A CHANGE ITLL phase in over time but yeah i dont see getting rid of my old guns just to shoot a smaller ball.

i think you would find some people love their guns as much as they love the sport and separating them could have dire consequences. this wont happen over a short period of time by any chan :shooting: :cheers: ce

[Shirow]

Ugh.. I hope this doesn't come to fruition. I really don't want to retire my wonderful mag :(

[drewkroeker]

Now that the word's out about .50 cal, perhaps some of the airsmiths and machinists on this forum should get some .50 cal automags on the drawing board... I would play paintball if .50 cal was all that was available years from now, but I would be much happier if I could still play with my mags.

[snoopay700]

Now that the word's out about .50 cal, perhaps some of the airsmiths and machinists on this forum should get some .50 cal automags on the drawing board... I would play paintball if .50 cal was all that was available years from now, but I would be much happier if I could still play with my mags.
The main problem is they would need a new bolt, meaning a level 10 would be hard as hell to have, and i'l also not even sure it can be done, i'd have to measure the power tube and see how much material could be on the bolt. Then the bolt stroke would still be too long which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's wasted movement then. We'd also need some sort of sleeve to slide into the breech, and we would need new detents. Like i said, it would be a hell of a lot easier to have a new body and bolt if you were to convert, if a conversion is even possible.

Oh yeah, i also forgot, like tom said it would need a brand new hopper, electric or otherwise, which is another reason i don't see this working. The entire industry is based around that one .68 inch ball, and i doubt it or the players are going to allow that to change any time soon.

[Lohman446]

change = sales. Making all the old guns obsolete gets the used ones off the market and allows sales of new ones.

[snoopay700]

change = sales. Making all the old guns obsolete gets the used ones off the market and allows sales of new ones.
That's a very valid point. Actually the entire industry can stand to benefit from this if it does become the standard, it's just a matter of whether or not the consumers will allow it, and it's the consumers and the fields that will make or break this idea. However, it's also up to the manufacturers if they want to take the leap of faith that this will take over and create a new marker/electric hopper, because if it ends up being driven in the ground by the consumers then they will lose money on r&d.

And as for mags, i just measured my powertube and it came out to about 7/16 of an inch, so mags are out as far as conversions, unless you want to have a new rail, a much longer bolt, and a much longer body, because it would essentially be a modified version of the bolt we have now only it would have to have the normal back with a new .50 cal front. In short, mags wouldn't be able to follow this trend.

[Automagsam]

change = sales. Making all the old guns obsolete gets the used ones off the market and allows sales of new ones.

Tis true change equals sales, but people also tend to resist change when they have to totally reinvest. Changes in any industry are gradual, if and if this were to happen it would have to be something that gradually changed the industry over the next ten years. This can be seen in any market. DVD players made VHS and VCR's obsolete, however look how long it took people to switch over. Then you got combo players to accommodate those who didn't want to give up the products they already had, just as blueray players play dvds, but still how many of you guys have blue ray players, my guess is not a lot. The comparison is a valid one, but here is the thing, any new gun developed will not accommodate an old product, and honestly there is no need for a change in the industry the change would need to be great enough for people to want to buy into it.

Something that requires adaptation across the whole industry and doesn't accommodate those within will not succeed initially or at all, so all of you guys who are worried, give it ten plus years then look and see if the industry has changed, however you can tell if it fails sooner than that, and my guess is that it does.

On top of all that, we shouldn't look at this as an opportunity to start fresh and with a clean slate within the industry, that simply is not true, if anything these new guns and balls will be patened asap and someone will corner the market there as well, so I wouldn't hope for this to change the market, but like I said I highly doubt this will take grasp and start growing amongst the industry as a standard especially in an economy as such. However if the guns and products were insanely cheap (which they won't be) then it could be feasible, just because it would have to be some extremely cheap alternative to paintball since everyone must reinvest and do to the lack of it's accommodations of the people already playing the sport who must switch over all their equipment.

I think that is really all the talk that needs to be said about these balls, there really isn't much any of us can do or say to predict how they do, it is just simply in the next decade will it take root.

[Maghog]

There's one single factor that is going to determine the outcome of 50 cal., and that is performance. On the day that you guys go to the chrono and you're standing next to some one who's zinging balls like a dart at a target you can't reach with your old fashioned setup, you're gonna gulp real hard.
After you come off the field frustrated because you couldn't get in range of your opponent before getting shot, you're going to think about either quitting or joining the new arms race.
I love the concept of 50 cal., it could breathe new life into the sport if it really works. It's just a real shame that the Gardener boys are involved.
Dan@Triggernomics

[Automagsam]

There's one single factor that is going to determine the outcome of 50 cal., and that is performance. On the day that you guys go to the chrono and you're standing next to some one who's zinging balls like a dart at a target you can't reach with your old fashioned setup, you're gonna gulp real hard.
After you come off the field frustrated because you couldn't get in range of your opponent before getting shot, you're going to think about either quitting or joining the new arms race.
I love the concept of 50 cal., it could breathe new life into the sport if it really works. It's just a real shame that the Gardener boys are involved.
Dan@Triggernomics

This concept has been around forever though, and most people know that it can do this. The thing is there are other things on the market if you want to do that, go spend a bunch of money on airsoft or such. I won't gape and be surprised from simple physics, but I am not going to reinvest in something unneeded in the sport.

I can honestly say that if these things take route and paintball is changed, I don't think I will stick around with the sport, not out of a way of protest, but I've dumped so much money into it, ten years down the road (it will take longer) when and if these things take root, I won't want to reinvest the time and money into it. It isn't improving the sport it is changing it. Shoot plastic bb's and we are airsoft.

If you want 50 cals go buy the cheap spring ones they sell at walmart, they are 50 cal. Have fun.

The thing is, I'm an average consumer and if I don't want to reinvest in all that new equipment, there will be others.

[Lohman446]

Think about who SP and Dye really care about. The 12 year old kiddi who got Mommy and Daddy to buy him an DM9 because his DM8 was outdated. Used sales don't help either of their bottom lines. If we can make the DM9s obsolete because all he pros are now shooting DM10 - .50 then we can force the change quicker than you would think. Because now there is a "reason" to buy the new. Through in a cheap marker like the Ion, Invert, PM etc and we can get a good share of the middle of the road player too.

Once the tip starts I think you will find its far quicker than you think. Tried shooting an old Palmers gun lately? How annoying is it to have the balls roll out because .68 ten years ago = .689 + and now equals .682 -.

[fishmishin]

I would have to say my biggest concerns on the issue are:

1- The Gardners are involved !! :cry:
2- Will it phase out the .68?

Other than that, if it helps the industry, go for it. I hate to see anything put money in the Gardners pocket though, ANYTHING, and I would hate to see them bully companies into getting on board. I plan on shooting mags until there is no way possible to shoot them, and if this phases out the .68, I will end up with some nice wall hangers I guess. I do think however that any transition that takes place is going to be over the course of time, I would have to agree with you on that one Automagsam. I worked on installing some of the first HDTV antennas around 13 years ago, and they said at that time that it would be 10 years for the switch to be made, and they missed their mark on that. SO, time will tell. If nothing else I guess we should maybe look at building our own .68 machines to make our own paint at home. Then we could see some savings ourselves, lol. Now there is an idea for you, shoot as much as you want!! You can make more !! :rofl:

[Lohman446]

Wait until the rule changes at major tournaments that require smaller paint (smaller paint = less force = safety :rolleyes: (it won't be that hard of a sell)), Remember that Dye and SP have something that most in the past have not had - basic ownership of a major tournament series.

"Ramping will never take hold because no major tournament will allow it" :rolleyes: That argument didn't work too well. It worked until SP and Dye had ramping on the market and made the non-ramping markers "obsolete". This will just make the obsolescence that much more forceful.

The good news: One would think a tapered barrel might be possible... maybe, maybe not.

[Automagsam]

Wait until the rule changes at major tournaments that require smaller paint (smaller paint = less force = safety :rolleyes: (it won't be that hard of a sell)), Remember that Dye and SP have something that most in the past have not had - basic ownership of a major tournament series.

"Ramping will never take hold because no major tournament will allow it" :rolleyes: That argument didn't work too well. It worked until SP and Dye had ramping on the market and made the non-ramping markers "obsolete". This will just make the obsolescence that much more forceful.

The good news: One would think a tapered barrel might be possible... maybe, maybe not.

I still disagree with the speed of the change thing, but as far as safety, I highly doubt that, infact if I recall Tom or someone was saying that there could be problems as it would fit through holes in masks that normal .68 wouldn't and I also believe that if my knowledge of physics serves me right that since they would be smaller they would most definetly hurt more, correct me if I am wrong. Also you now have a problem of getting them to break...good luck and as Tom was saying the fills that can be used are all toxic, so I don't know where you got the whole idea of them being safer, or perhaps that was just a casual generalization. Either way I think the point is mute because the change could not possibly happen fast inless there was some crazy incentive to the market, and it can't be just oh these are better and shoot way better, that wouldn't cut it, it would have to be monetary and more resourceful, something that will not happen. In fact I will make the prediction right now right here in 10 years the sport will not have .50 as it's main paintball. Call me out on that in ten years if I a wrong. People are too hopeful these days and less logical.

Also I was thinking and edited this in, the whole reference to the DM10 and schtuff only goes to prove my point, yes the ignorant people buy that stuff up, but there is a difference, because those ignorant people help fields and the industry in general as those people bring business to the fields as they can be used there, this new stuff can't thus if a change happened it would be slow, doesn't matter how fast dumb people buy it up the fields aren't going to throw all their resources to accommodate a minority, they'd rather seek profit and stay in business, it'd be a huge risk unlikely to have a huge payoff.

[Lohman446]

The rolleyes were there for a reason. An argument does not have to be accurate to sound good and be convincing. This is the company that touted spiraled porting after all :)

[snoopay700]

There's one single factor that is going to determine the outcome of 50 cal., and that is performance. On the day that you guys go to the chrono and you're standing next to some one who's zinging balls like a dart at a target you can't reach with your old fashioned setup, you're gonna gulp real hard.
After you come off the field frustrated because you couldn't get in range of your opponent before getting shot, you're going to think about either quitting or joining the new arms race.
I love the concept of 50 cal., it could breathe new life into the sport if it really works. It's just a real shame that the Gardener boys are involved.
Dan@Triggernomics
The only problem is that they wouldn't be miraculously further, they would mainly be more accurate. And the fact that most fields are field paint only, it would be hard to intimidate someone with paint that can't be used on the field, and if that person didn't know and thought it was the gun then found out it takes .50 cal balls, then i doubt they would buy it since they can't use field paint. I mean honestly if it was something new coming out that you had no clue if it was going to take off or not and you owned a field, would you buy that paint for the few people that have those guns? Not likely.

As for increased safety, if anything it's less safe. Imagine a paintball traveling at 300 fps hitting a lens, or flesh, and it has the same amount of energy (if not more since there is less drag) and the impact having a smaller area. If anything they would be less safe.

Also my boss, Mark, pointed out that in a lot of countries they're outlawing projectiles of any kind over .50 cal, which is probably a large reason why they're making this as well.

[insixdays777]

Dont forget ALL paintball field insurance policies would have to be rewritten. Broader coverage due to a broader and new set of risk (.50cal) = more expensive insurance for the fields which = more expensive field fees for us.

[om3n]

So would it even be possible to modify or change an existing mag bolt/body to accommodate these .50 cal rounds? If it was possible, then I would consider switching over...

[snoopay700]

So would it even be possible to modify or change an existing mag bolt/body to accommodate these .50 cal rounds? If it was possible, then I would consider switching over...
I covered this on the previous page. No, at least not easily, you'd need a new body, new rail, the valve would be moved way back. You'd need a new powertube essentially, if you did want to retrofit it.

[Tym]

I don't see how by just making a ball smaller it improves anything. If they do more than just make it smaller, why can't they do that to the regular .68?

It sounds like a sham or a cash grab to me..

[Reiner]

Also my boss, Mark, pointed out that in a lot of countries they're outlawing projectiles of any kind over .50 cal, which is probably a large reason why they're making this as well.
Damn! Does that mean the end of baseball and golf? That's going to suck. Wait until all those politicians that take off early every Friday to play golf find out. They are going to be p'ed.

[snoopay700]

I don't see how by just making a ball smaller it improves anything. If they do more than just make it smaller, why can't they do that to the regular .68?

It sounds like a sham or a cash grab to me..
Yeah that's what i thought, but then i thought about how the rules state that they need to be no heavier than 3.5 grams or something.

And yeah, those guys that love golf will be pretty mad when they find out they have to play mini golf.

[Lohman446]

I don't see how by just making a ball smaller it improves anything. If they do more than just make it smaller, why can't they do that to the regular .68?

It sounds like a sham or a cash grab to me..


Vortex shedding is the reason behind the theory they will work better - assuming the .50 is going to maintain the same weight less surface will cause better performance.

[Shirow]

Have I mentioned how much I hate this idea? That being said, I'm not sure I can see this taking off in public/rec fields anytime soon at all, for two main reasons:

#1 They're not going to want to have to replace every single rental gun
#2 They're not going to want to stop people playing at their field because they haven't bought a new gun

So I'm not too worried. I will be very upset if I have to stop shooting my mag tho :|

[Beemer]

I know I have posted this before and I think in this thread. To lazy to look and post link so I will just post it again.

In general for best performance you want the SMALLEST and HEAVIEST Ball or Sphere you can get.

Last I checked paint it was right around 68cal[some brands smaller or larger] and weighing in at 3.0 to 3.2G. Measure and weigh your paint and tell me what you have. I havent weighed a 3.5G ball ever.

A 50cal ball at 3.5G at 300FPS would be tits but can you say safety first. I will let you guys do the math cause it aint my strong point. :argh:

Here are the current ASTM standards, that really dont mean squat cause across the board they ARENT followed. Can you say RAMPING or SEMIAUTO? :(

3.3 Maximum Weight—The paintballs shall not weigh more
than 3.5 g.

3.4 Fill Color Limitations—The paintballs shall not contain
fill material with a color mimicking that of human blood.

^^This would be red. We all know this is crap cause we can still buy RED paint. :mad:

3.5 Diameter of Paintball—The diameter of the paintball as
measured both polar and at the seam shall measure between
16.5 mm (0.650 in.) and 18 mm (0.709 in.).

^^Hmmm 65cal at 3.5G at 300FPS. I will buy this stuff. :tard:

So do the math. 50cal at 3.5G at 300FPS or 50cal at 3.0G at 300FPS or WHAT, is SAFE??

What we know. 3.5G max at 68cal at 300FPS.

What we dont know. What the weight of this NEW 50cal ball is ASSUMING its velocity is 300FPS Max.

Screw it, just sign me up for the First Strike rounds or better yet lets just play with FN303's. :D

[snoopay700]

Beemer, did you not read tom's post? The fn303's shot is 8.5 grams or something like that, that's against the standards :nono:
:rofl:

[Lohman446]

I know I have posted this before and I think in this thread. To lazy to look and post link so I will just post it again.

In general for best performance you want the SMALLEST and HEAVIEST Ball or Sphere you can get.

Last I checked paint it was right around 68cal[some brands smaller or larger] and weighing in at 3.0 to 3.2G. Measure and weigh your paint and tell me what you have. I havent weighed a 3.5G ball ever.

A 50cal ball at 3.5G at 300FPS would be tits but can you say safety first. I will let you guys do the math cause it aint my strong point. :argh:

Here are the current ASTM standards, that really dont mean squat cause across the board they ARENT followed. Can you say RAMPING or SEMIAUTO? :(

3.3 Maximum Weight—The paintballs shall not weigh more
than 3.5 g.

3.4 Fill Color Limitations—The paintballs shall not contain
fill material with a color mimicking that of human blood.

^^This would be red. We all know this is crap cause we can still buy RED paint. :mad:

3.5 Diameter of Paintball—The diameter of the paintball as
measured both polar and at the seam shall measure between
16.5 mm (0.650 in.) and 18 mm (0.709 in.).

^^Hmmm 65cal at 3.5G at 300FPS. I will buy this stuff. :tard:

So do the math. 50cal at 3.5G at 300FPS or 50cal at 3.0G at 300FPS or WHAT, is SAFE??

What we know. 3.5G max at 68cal at 300FPS.

What we dont know. What the weight of this NEW 50cal ball is ASSUMING its velocity is 300FPS Max.

Screw it, just sign me up for the First Strike rounds or better yet lets just play with FN303's. :D

What in paintball has ever considered safety first? The arguments against this working have been:

It might not work. Big deal, spiral porting, low pressure, and a large amount of what we have done has not actually worked. It didn't even have science behind it. This at least has some science behind it, and truth be told it has some great marketing stand points. IF it works or not in reality are secondary to those pushing it.

Safety. How many examples of this taking a back seat do you need?

[Beemer]

What in paintball has ever considered safety first? The arguments against this working have been:

It might not work. Big deal, spiral porting, low pressure, and a large amount of what we have done has not actually worked. It didn't even have science behind it. This at least has some science behind it, and truth be told it has some great marketing stand points. IF it works or not in reality are secondary to those pushing it. Safety. How many examples of this taking a back seat do you need?

Hmmm, well not to many. See I know how it is, since I started playing in 85.

I just want to know how they think this will work. I am only here to give the facts on ASTM and Safety First. :(

You dont even know the weight of this new proposed ball so how can you say there is science behind it?

[Lohman446]

Hmmm, well not to many. See I know how it is, since I started playing in 85.

I just want to know how they think this will work. I am only here to give the facts on ASTM and Safety First. :(

You dont even know the weight of this new proposed ball so how can you say there is science behind it?

I will beleive it will be better when I see it. That being said its secondary. These people have pushed how much through without any consideration to if it works or if its safe? Whats it you are always saying about the majority of players? It applies.

[Hilltop Customs]

There is a limiting factor, its called pain and deep tissue damage

smaller, more dense.....but they just happened to leave out, a lower recommended velocity


I like the idea of smaller paint, but god that is some horrid hype marketing. "Now you can carry 10,000 rounds of our new more-dense paint! Dont forget to check out our new marker! We shaved 1/2 a gram so we can charge you even more than last year!"

[Lohman446]

Again I will point this out. You are expecting logical reasoning to define the marketing attempts of SP and Dye. Based on what? I have given multiple examples of where it has not

[Hilltop Customs]

I dont expect logical reasoning to be used in marketing, especially when considering the paintball demographic and their acceptance of the absurd.

On the other hand, these companies have lawyers, lawyers know how much selling an unsafe product will cost, but they also know they dont have to mention the safety constraints when marketing the product. The safety issue can be taken care of with a tiny subscript line on the box stating "this paint is only to be used under 220 fps and ONLY with safety gear designed for these smaller, more dense rounds"