Seal- Forward?

[Newt]

Hey all,

I'm pretty new to the mag and still trying to get my head all the way around the design. I've been nothing but impressed so far.

How does the AGD bolt style ensure gas goes into the barrel, though? Every other bolt system I've seen from the Tippmann style to the SP design to the new Bob Long valve to Autocockers have a method of sealing the bolt with the barrel at the time the valve is opened. Bolt-barrel seal = efficiency.

How's that work on the mag? There's no oring on the bolt's outside diameter, and if there was it'd get chewed to shreads by the spring.

[vf-xx]

to the best of my knowlege it doesn't seal.

Then again. Mags are not known for air efficency either. Love em anyway. :)

[cockerpunk]

well if you look at a level 1o bolt you'll notice a wee bit back from the bolt face, here is a little hump. this is a swell in the bolt that insures the bolt and barrel seal up reasonably well. its about a 3-4 thou sealing ridge.

[vf-xx]

well if you look at a level 1o bolt you'll notice a wee bit back from the bolt face, here is a little hump. this is a swell in the bolt that insures the bolt and barrel seal up reasonably well. its about a 3-4 thou sealing ridge.

I thought that was part of the tapering due to the anti chop functions. I need to go look at it again.

[Newt]

well if you look at a level 1o bolt you'll notice a wee bit back from the bolt face, here is a little hump. this is a swell in the bolt that insures the bolt and barrel seal up reasonably well. its about a 3-4 thou sealing ridge.

Okay, I see the hump now. It doesn't work very well, I can blow through my barrel with the bolt "sealed" in it, and feel air flowing around it (moreso even than the porting).

Perhaps I'll put an old barrel on the lathe and machine an oring gland into it.

[cockerpunk]

well that was one big problem with twist locks. most companies tended to bore out the whole thing to whatever bore size they barrel was, and the breach just became whatever size that was. the fit between barrel and bore caused either lots of blowback, or even bolt stick. with the move in the ULE bodies to cocker, then at least the breach size was consistent.

[Newt]

Okay, so that's the deal. It does seal reasonably well in the ULE body. There's still a fair amount of leakage past the bolt and up the feedneck, just with moderate lung pressure.

Huh. Maybe AGD will fix this with the lvl 11 bolt and we'll all get to brag about how efficient our 'mags are. :D

[kcombs9]

I got a feeling the the mag's lack of air efficiency is not due to the way the lvl 10 seals with the barrel...

when was the last time you ran out of air in one game? what field wont offer all day air?

yeah I have to fill my tank more then the kiddies using the Ion's. But I still own them :shooting:

[vf-xx]

when was the last time you ran out of air in one game? what field wont offer all day air?


Last time I played, when I forgot to air up after every 2nd game, while renting a 68 ci 3k tank.

[kcombs9]

Last time I played, when I forgot to air up after every 2nd game, while renting a 68 ci 3k tank.

Bummer. I use a 88ci 4.5k, so moral of the story check your tank! ;)

[cockerpunk]

I got a feeling the the mag's lack of air efficiency is not due to the way the lvl 10 seals with the barrel...

i'd be willing to bet that you could pick up 10 fps cause of it.

[kcombs9]

i'd be willing to bet that you could pick up 10 fps cause of it.

I'm sure you could. I was just saying that there is more then just that. and the lvl 10 alone is a good drop in efficiency over the lvl 7. but the trade off for NEVER chopping paint. ill fill my tank an extra time for that.

[vf-xx]

Bummer. I use a 88ci 4.5k, so moral of the story check your tank! ;)

Let's not get started. I have a 114 4.5k that I normally use, but the reg got jacked up when I rehydroed it last.

[cockerpunk]

I'm sure you could. I was just saying that there is more then just that. and the lvl 10 alone is a good drop in efficiency over the lvl 7. but the trade off for NEVER chopping paint. ill fill my tank an extra time for that.

i dont think your gonna get 20 fps, becuase though my experience with testing bolts, the range was about 20 fps between flow/valve port seal/front oring seal using a cocker. so with a mag we are only talking about the front oring, which wasn't nearly as large as valve port sealing and flow restrictions.

[Newt]

I got a feeling the the mag's lack of air efficiency is not due to the way the lvl 10 seals with the barrel...

when was the last time you ran out of air in one game? what field wont offer all day air?

yeah I have to fill my tank more then the kiddies using the Ion's. But I still own them :shooting:
Sure, but that's not the issue at all. Air efficiency isn't for getting more shots on a tank unless you're playing outlaw a 1/2 hour drive from the nearest fill station (but then, most of us do occasionally).

Air efficiency is for increasing fps with the same pressure. That translates to a lower operating pressure (in the on/off, after the reg) which quiets the shot, puts less deformation on the ball, and leaves more gas for trigger reactivity.

We could probably test a decent force fed hopper and find that working against blowback up the feedneck also uses battery life faster, but that's really about as moot as tank fills.

[dark blade]

Sure, but that's not the issue at all. Air efficiency isn't for getting more shots on a tank unless you're playing outlaw a 1/2 hour drive from the nearest fill station (but then, most of us do occasionally).

Air efficiency is for increasing fps with the same pressure. That translates to a lower operating pressure (in the on/off, after the reg) which quiets the shot, puts less deformation on the ball, and leaves more gas for trigger reactivity.

We could probably test a decent force fed hopper and find that working against blowback up the feedneck also uses battery life faster, but that's really about as moot as tank fills.

ehhh i sort of agree, the blowback would certainly effect a lot and would quiet things down and lower operating pressure if we were to seal better. However, the things you have listed have little to no effect on anything at all.

Lower operating pressure would normally mean you need more air to attain the same FPS as a higher pressure with lower volume so efficiency wont get better.

The marker being quieter is a minimal benefit, in fact... its more preference than anything else. I have seen Noxx box loudeners on bob long vices for intimidation factor so noise signature doesnt affect anything at all, its just whatever people prefer.

deformation of the ball has never been a factor in anything. If it were, people would not be able to attain tight groupings with a mag. I believe that mags shoot just as accurately as anything else would/could because when the ball enters the barrel the circumference of the barrel keeps the shape of the ball in formation with an equal pressure around the edge.

lastly. "leaves more gas for trigger reactivity" is completely false. If you lower the operating pressure you lower the reactivity you feel.


the efficiency of automags have actually been proven to be better than a smart parts ion shot for shot. This was done in a scientific test by cockerpunk and bryce. What "kills" the automag is the same thing that "kills" any other high pressure marker like a tippmann. The marker simply will not fire when the tank reaches a certain pressure. if the operating pressure of the automag were the same as an ion, the automag would be more gas efficient. (lets not attempt to get it to that level though)


by golly, keep the mag the same ! its worked for many many years so lets just leave it alone, its like trying to fix a working toilet with a hammer... its only gonna end up breaking.

[Newt]

Pressure vs. Reactivity: isn't that relationship based on the pressure coming out of the tank, not the regulated pressure in the on/off? I admit I'm a new automag guy, so perhaps I'm confused there.

Low pressure doesn't use more air, unless you want to dig up an AGD post saying the mag system happens to favor one or the other. Pressure/volume is a direct relationship. You need the same amount of air to accelerate a ball to 285 fps at 45 psi or 4500 psi.

HOWEVER, I know an olde school mag die-hards who played for AGD's team when the "Smart Mags" were made. Those guys will swear up and down that the other team was shooting accurately about 20 feet further with the same mags, only difference being the "Magic Box" that lowered the pressure in the on/off.

Again, same input pressure. Only difference is the pressure the valve reg is letting into the on/off.

I do agree, it works and that's what matters. My thrust is not to start screwing with the design. I'm really just trying to get my head around it. Again, new mag owner. :clap:

[cockerpunk]

Pressure vs. Reactivity: isn't that relationship based on the pressure coming out of the tank, not the regulated pressure in the on/off? I admit I'm a new automag guy, so perhaps I'm confused there.

Low pressure doesn't use more air, unless you want to dig up an AGD post saying the mag system happens to favor one or the other. Pressure/volume is a direct relationship. You need the same amount of air to accelerate a ball to 285 fps at 45 psi or 4500 psi.

HOWEVER, I know an olde school mag die-hards who played for AGD's team when the "Smart Mags" were made. Those guys will swear up and down that the other team was shooting accurately about 20 feet further with the same mags, only difference being the "Magic Box" that lowered the pressure in the on/off.

Again, same input pressure. Only difference is the pressure the valve reg is letting into the on/off.

I do agree, it works and that's what matters. My thrust is not to start screwing with the design. I'm really just trying to get my head around it. Again, new mag owner. :clap:

air efficiency is about ENERGY

when you drop pressure you need more volume because that part of the energy equation is P*V

so you use the same amount of energy each shot by trading off pressure and volume.

[dark blade]

well. the trigger reactivity is controlled by the pressure in the on/off DIRECTLY

It is not possible to lower the pressure just in front of the on/off. If you lower the pressure in the front you must lower it in the back because the front dump chamber only fills until the pressure is equal to that of the pressure behind it. This is why the reactivity is based on the on/off. It is seemingly the middle ground of the pressure and is the location of where and how the sear is reset.

[KC]

the efficiency of automags have actually been proven to be better than a smart parts ion shot for shot. This was done in a scientific test by cockerpunk and bryce.


Interesting. do you have a link to that?

[cockerpunk]

Interesting. do you have a link to that?

yes, being mentioned in such a statement makes me :confused:

[Newt]

Just watched the mag RT valve animation about 20 times on slow, and I think I'm starting to understand things now, dark blade. I was assuming the "regulator" spring pack piston assembly you adjust for velocity was a regulator design similar to the Palmer Stab, and only allowed a set pressure to be released through the on/off.

In fact, it's really only varying the volume to be stored and used for the next shot, and the entire valve system is at the same pressure. Therefore, the higher pressure entering the marker causes the trigger pin to be "slammed" harder when the valve recharges. Does that sound more accurate?

Back on topic, the bolt itself looks like it's not releasing gas from the valve until it's well past the breach.

[secretweaponevan]

Just watched the mag RT valve animation about 20 times on slow, and I think I'm starting to understand things now, dark blade. I was assuming the "regulator" spring pack piston assembly you adjust for velocity was a regulator design similar to the Palmer Stab, and only allowed a set pressure to be released through the on/off.

In fact, it's really only varying the volume to be stored and used for the next shot, and the entire valve system is at the same pressure. Therefore, the higher pressure entering the marker causes the trigger pin to be "slammed" harder when the valve recharges. Does that sound more accurate?

Back on topic, the bolt itself looks like it's not releasing gas from the valve until it's well past the breach.


What is actually happening in the RT valvetrain is that gas enters the system at the on/off pin (which is why a higher input pressure makes for a more reactive trigger).
Then, the entire system begins filling with input-pressure gas (keep in mind this happens in a small fraction of a second).
Once the system has reached the desired pressure, the regulator piston pushes against the regulator spring, moving back off the Regulator Valve Pin Assembly, causing the Regulator Valve Pin Assembly to shut off any more gas entering the system.

So:
In a classic valve, the system fills with air regulated by the regulator.
In an RT valve, the system fills with supply air until the regulator shuts off the supply.

It's a small difference with tremendous performance results.

[KC]

yes, being mentioned in such a statement makes me :confused:

:rofl:

I spent over an hour looking for something that doesn't exist.

[kcombs9]

It's not entirely about bolt/breech seal.

PPS Blazer: functions down to about 400psi.
AGD Automag: functions down to about 600psi.

You get "200 psi extra" worth of shots comparing those two markers.

that's what I was trying to say but couldn't word it right. Least that's what I had in my head :rolleyes:

[athomas]

It's not entirely about bolt/breech seal.

PPS Blazer: functions down to about 400psi.
AGD Automag: functions down to about 600psi.

You get "200 psi extra" worth of shots comparing those two markers.Different mechanism though. Its not blowback that causes the difference.

The blow forward design is completely different than the poppet design. In a poppet design, a hammer hits a pin and opens a poppet to release a blast of air. Then all the air that is released is used to push the air.

In the mag blow forward design, the air pushes the bolt forward against a spring. When the bolt stem exits the powertube the air propels the ball. The spring is pushing back against the bolt. When the spring force exceeds the air pressure and the forward momentum of the bolt, the bolt goes back and resets. The spring does this when there is still air in the chamber. The bolt being pushed back also acts like a restrictor. This means the mag works best at a higher pressure in the chamber. The higher pressure reduces the losses due to the restriction.

[MANN]

http://www.zdspb.com/tech/misc/animations.html

llook through the animations on this page. you will then understand

[Watcher]

Even with the lvl10 I still get about 6pods and a hopper off of my 68/4500...

I don't mind the lack of air effeciency, I never bring more than 4 pods with me onto the field at any given time. When I refill my paint I refill my air...

[athomas]

I could get 8 pods and a hopper from a 68-4500 using a level 10 mag. There are lots of ways to increase efficiency of a mag. Low pressure is not one of them.