The dangers of centralized information

[Lohman446]

Ten years ago if I wanted torque specifications for a vehicle I went to a book - now these books were very cumbersome and generally costly. Now most places have switched to using internet based services (Mitchell On-demand, All-data etc) rather than the books - same companies, different method of delivery of info.

The fact of the matter is if I want to do something around the house I frequently get data from online rather than storing or keeping it in book form. Its also a popular cook book method now. I am sure this applies to other industries and ways of doing things.

As generations get more and more used to doing things online and books become less and less used it is only going to be more pronounced. At one point experts used to remember a lot more data than they do now, its simply not important to "have" this knowledge in mind any longer because it is readily accessible.

What happens if in ten years access to this knowledge is suddenly lost? Something destroys the internet for instance and the data we depend on is gone. Obviously this moment there are still solutions, but the ready dispersement of information (and accessibility) are moving more and more towards online and less and less to "hard copies". What will be different in ten years? What will change? How will that make us more dependent?

[Thordic]

If there was something that was catestrophic enough to take out the entire internet, we'd be a lot more trouble than not knowing the firing order on a 1984 chevy pickup.

You have a point but considering how much is managed through the internet lately, the loss of knowledge would be a small factor. Most of the knowledge available via the internet still exists SOMEWHERE in a book. We'd move on.

[teufelhunden]

So print it to PDF.

[Lohman446]

So print it to PDF.

I used it as a particular example - and its not PDF format really. Its decidedly web based. I have a lot of the books anyways.

[teufelhunden]

I used it as a particular example - and its not PDF format really. Its decidedly web based. I have a lot of the books anyways.

Right, if it's web based, print the pertinent information to PDF.

Further, I know it was an example, but "destruction of the internet" would be... damn near impossible. The total decentralization of the system makes it fairly robust. A more likely possibility would be your ISP being taken down (somehow) - but, we all still have Blackberries or iPhones or a laptop with WWAN.

I wouldn't be too concerned :)

When I originally clicked the topic I was expecting to see some Obama initiative to store all information in a government repository, eliminate private knowledge, and then tax our use :) :ninja:

[skife]

If there was something that was catestrophic enough to take out the entire internet, we'd be a lot more trouble than not knowing the firing order on a 1984 chevy pickup.




1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2

[Lohman446]

Right, if it's web based, print the pertinent information to PDF.

Further, I know it was an example, but "destruction of the internet" would be... damn near impossible. The total decentralization of the system makes it fairly robust. A more likely possibility would be your ISP being taken down (somehow) - but, we all still have Blackberries or iPhones or a laptop with WWAN.

I wouldn't be too concerned :)

When I originally clicked the topic I was expecting to see some Obama initiative to store all information in a government repository, eliminate private knowledge, and then tax our use :) :ninja:

The concern is not a single ISP - but a total locking off of the stored knowledge that we have grown to be used to having readily accessible. Not just in a single industry but across the spectrum.

[Hexis]

It's kinda funny that a good bit of the design of the routing protocols and packet switching designs (that make the Internet possible) were influenced by the concept that the network should be decentralized so it's survivable in case of a large scale outage. If the web site was designed appropriately (and had a large budget) the data and service could handle a continent wide outage.

[SCpoloRicker]

This is already an issue. NASA does not have archival information on the rockets used in the 60s, so we could not recreate that tech if we wanted to.

Semi related; I have definitely noticed issues at work with this problem. Different standards and requirements for mission-critical engineering tasks, artists not using correct specs, etc. Of course, this place is a madhouse - but still: info is not organized.

[Sumthinwicked]

a nasty enough virus if unleashed could kill most things especially targeting big compaines i worry about this since online banking became the latest rage ....

[Thordic]

a nasty enough virus if unleashed could kill most things especially tageting big compaines i worry about this since online banking became the latest rage ....

That was more to my point about how we'd have bigger issues. I work at a bank, and we do hardcopy backups of all our data, and our data is stored in multiple secure locations, and its not all linked to the internet, so it'd be almost impossible to erase the records. You could delete our entire system and we'd be back up & running within a week with minimal data loss.

[Sumthinwicked]

true there are hardcopies now but hes saying 10 years from now :rolleyes:

[teufelhunden]

true there are hardcopies now but hes saying 10 years from now :rolleyes:

There will be hardcopies then as well.

We prepare tax returns on computers (duh) and they're stored on a server in the office that is supposedly isolated from the internet (along with our in-house data) - so should something happen, those should be safe. If not, tape backups. We store a lot of our documents from clients with an online repository who also takes similar data security steps, so same deal there.

I'd expect most companies take measures to protect their information from something cataclysmic. Should something destroy everything world wide, it'd most likely be calamity for a week or two before everybody can get back online, but I don't think the world's knowledge will be lost.

[Lohman446]

There will be hardcopies then as well.

We prepare tax returns on computers (duh) and they're stored on a server in the office that is supposedly isolated from the internet (along with our in-house data) - so should something happen, those should be safe. If not, tape backups. We store a lot of our documents from clients with an online repository who also takes similar data security steps, so same deal there.

I'd expect most companies take measures to protect their information from something cataclysmic. Should something destroy everything world wide, it'd most likely be calamity for a week or two before everybody can get back online, but I don't think the world's knowledge will be lost.

Let me ask this. What if we lost the ability to read computerized data? You know, we go back and look at the paintings on the walls of the Egyptians, what if they had a complex society that we have no way to read the data they had stored? (No, I don't think its a realistic likelihood, I am just offering it as an example)

[Sumthinwicked]

There will be hardcopies then as well.

We prepare tax returns on computers (duh) and they're stored on a server in the office that is supposedly isolated from the internet (along with our in-house data) - so should something happen, those should be safe. If not, tape backups. We store a lot of our documents from clients with an online repository who also takes similar data security steps, so same deal there.

I'd expect most companies take measures to protect their information from something cataclysmic. Should something destroy everything world wide, it'd most likely be calamity for a week or two before everybody can get back online, but I don't think the world's knowledge will be lost.
in respect to urself and anyone reading this the colapse of the net is what we are talking about for expample someone developes an emp device and employes it on the us that means computer repositories connected or not are LOST then wh at runs ur tape machine ur non attched computers would not WORK ....

[Sumthinwicked]

There will be hardcopies then as well.

We prepare tax returns on computers (duh) and they're stored on a server in the office that is supposedly isolated from the internet (along with our in-house data) - so should something happen, those should be safe. If not, tape backups. We store a lot of our documents from clients with an online repository who also takes similar data security steps, so same deal there.

I'd expect most companies take measures to protect their information from something cataclysmic. Should something destroy everything world wide, it'd most likely be calamity for a week or two before everybody can get back online, but I don't think the world's knowledge will be lost.
in respect to urself and anyone reading this the colapse of the net is what we are talking about for example someone developes an emp device and employes it on the US that means computer repositories connected or not are LOST then what runs ur tape machine ur non attached computers would not WORK ....

[Hexis]

If someone could knock out all electronic devices in the US, the least of our worries would be banking records.

Doomsday scenarios are really fun for fiction, not so useful for a realistic discussion.

[Sumthinwicked]

true but i didnt ask the question ...... just backing up the what if yea know

[Lohman446]

A) I've learned two points I did not know, one being about how isolated each "switch" or whatever you want to call it is.

I do think it conceivable though for a worm or trojan or something to cause a massive denial of service attack that might make it incredibly unlikely to be able to access data like we are used to.

I was thinking about how much information was lost when Rome pulled out of Europe, and how quickly society "plunged". Remember the great Roman empire existed before the "dark ages" and was a great society. I was thinking about one of the things they took with them when they withdrew and one was knowledge, and the "quick" dissemination of knowledge.

/Look... my other topic I was considering was bemoaning the effects of sliced bread on society, you guys got this one for discussion instead, be thankful

[teufelhunden]

in respect to urself and anyone reading this the colapse of the net is what we are talking about for example someone developes an emp device and employes it on the US that means computer repositories connected or not are LOST then what runs ur tape machine ur non attached computers would not WORK ....


That was not the original topic of discussion. The topic was regarding what happened if the internet went away and gathering information via the internet was therefore impossible. Not "what happens if none of the computers work anymore"

I'm almost embarrassed posting this with all the red underlines (Firefox) but I can take solace in them not being mine, I guess...

[Sumthinwicked]

That was not the original topic of discussion. The topic was regarding what happened if the internet went away and gathering information via the internet was therefore impossible. Not "what happens if none of the computers work anymore"

I'm almost embarrassed posting this with all the red underlines (Firefox) but I can take solace in them not being mine, I guess...
im at work and i type fast ....

[Hexis]

I do think it conceivable though for a worm or trojan or something to cause a massive denial of service attack that might make it incredibly unlikely to be able to access data like we are used to.

How so? Which part of the Internet would the DDoS attack and take down the entire Internet? Not doomsday crazy, but some semi plausible scenario.

[Sumthinwicked]

firesale ;P no power no net ......

[Lohman446]

How so? Which part of the Internet would the DDoS attack and take down the entire Internet? Not doomsday crazy, but some semi plausible scenario.

If I can deny service to a certain internet website, or to a provider (such as AT&T claims 4chan tried) can I not deny it in the whole?

Serious question, I will admit to not knowing how it works, I am working on that assumption.

[Coralis]

I would think a large scale cyber attack on the power grid would be far more disrupting in the short term.