But why?

[minimag03]

I'm curious as to why people add pneumatic to their Automag frames. It seems like an expensive process of making something simple a lot more complex.

Some might say to improve ROF. I have never thought that my Minimag shot very slow, much less the RTs I have owned. If an RT (ULT if you prefer) is not fast enough for you, then why are you not just shooting an electro? The electronic maker would be faster, cheaper, more reliable, and more efficient.

I might understand the "cool" factor of doing it. However most "cool" project markers that I build ever see much if any playing time.

What do you guys think? I'm not trying to bash, just inquire. :cheers:

[TeamBob]

The electronic maker would be faster, cheaper, more reliable, and more efficient."

But then your just like every other cookie-cutter player out there.

And there is just something about shooting somebody, with a $1,000+ gun, with my 15+ year old gun, thats worth a third what thiers is, by something they have never heard of. :D

[drewkroeker]

I can think of a couple of reasons people make pneumags. One is that pneumatics allow you to utilize the valve to its full potential (or at least much more than just a normal RT). Another reason is you have a high rate of fire with no batteries. The trigger is as light as some electros but doesn't have a click.

To each their own; I just think pneumags (and any other type of mag) are just plain awesome!

[minimag03]

I can think of a couple of reasons people make pneumags. One is that pneumatics allow you to utilize the valve to its full potential (or at least much more than just a normal RT). Another reason is you have a high rate of fire with no batteries. The trigger is as light as some electros but doesn't have a click.

To each their own; I just think pneumags (and any other type of mag) are just plain awesome!

The valve is certainly used more, but nowhere near its full potential. There there are more efficient engines to propel a paintball than an xvalve. And you still need 9v for your hopper, so who battery thing has never made sense, ever.


The electronic maker would be faster, cheaper, more reliable, and more efficient."

But then your just like every other cookie-cutter player out there.

And there is just something about shooting somebody, with a $1,000+ gun, with my 15+ year old gun, thats worth a third what thiers is, by something they have never heard of. :D

Or you could get an equally unique electro, like a Viking. They are probably a bit heavier, but worth it.

[ZapTheMad]

I do it for:

1 - Super light trigger without needing batteries or micro switches. Add Q-loader for maximum effect.

2 - Custom made stuff is way cool! (if you're into that kind of thing)

3 - I love to tinker!

4 - Removes trigger bounce completely. Making it legal on any field. Not that trigger bounce isn't fun when allowed :shooting:

5 - The giddy feeling inside when you get it put together and it works amazing! I think this is the biggest draw for the DIY'ers.

6 - Because I can!

[cougar20th]

After playing around with one at the NH game. The reasons I see to make a pnuemag are.

I like the automag platform. Its comfortable for me.
No batteries. I dont know how many times Ive had batteries go dead.
Automag reliablity. Pretty much a set & forget frame once it is setup correctly.
Again no batteries. I like being able to grab a gun & go play on a moments notice without checking stuff.

[punkncat]

I tend to agree that it took something simple and added more things to break...however to each his own. I think it is pretty darn cool, even if it is not my cup of tea, that people can do the mod and make it work so well.

[vf-xx]

I like to tinker.

and I like warp bodies.

and I'm too cheap to get a custom body made for another marker to run a warp.

[Toll]

Because I can.



Really, thats kind of my catch-all answer.

[Watcher]

The electronic maker would be faster, cheaper, more reliable, and more efficient."

But then your just like every other cookie-cutter player out there.

And there is just something about shooting somebody, with a $1,000+ gun, with my 15+ year old gun, thats worth a third what thiers is, by something they have never heard of. :D

Seconded.

Even though the ULT is walkable, the Pneus make it electro light!

Brawndo, the thirst mutilator! It's got Electro-Lites!


Sry :rofl:



And with the whole "hoppers have batteries too" arguement, the hopper doesn't fail-to-function without batteries... maybe a halo would (neverminding the rip-drive) but any standard agitator loader like a revy, Rico, egg, Extreme Rage, Fasta, Pinokio, and many more will still feed regardless.



By that logic, why would anyone use the AGD Flatline Air if they are going to still use it at 850psi output? I know why, because it is wicked cool!

Why would anyone use a stock-class gun with an autotrigger?
Why would you use a stock-class gun?
Why would you mod a Halo to use 9Vs even though you don't get a speed increase?

Why? Because you can, and in this country (unlike Japan) it is cool to be different!

[PanzerGen]

As for making a simple marker more complex, I have actually found that my pneumag requires less tuning now than before mostly because of the addition of the lpr which reduces my trigger tuning to turning a knob on a palmer microrock vs ULT and tank output tuning. The only added maintenance is replacing the lpr hose (I have had the hose blow out on me a few times). I can actually walk the trigger now without making to get into my nitroduck ireg and change pistons around before I fill it up.

[snoopay700]

I'm curious as to why people add pneumatic to their Automag frames. It seems like an expensive process of making something simple a lot more complex.

Some might say to improve ROF. I have never thought that my Minimag shot very slow, much less the RTs I have owned. If an RT (ULT if you prefer) is not fast enough for you, then why are you not just shooting an electro? The electronic maker would be faster, cheaper, more reliable, and more efficient.

I might understand the "cool" factor of doing it. However most "cool" project markers that I build ever see much if any playing time.

What do you guys think? I'm not trying to bash, just inquire. :cheers:
I did it because i had 60 bucks to spend to upgrade my classic RT, i did not have 300 for a mini.

And it's not that complex, plus i love to tinker, although i gett horrid efficiency now, something like 5-700 per fill.

[BiNumber3]

i like building it up and tuning it to perfection, kinda like buyin an old car to fix up n drive (still want my 76 corvette)

sure u can buy electros that shoot faster, feel lighter, and sometimes end up bein cheaper, but they also break easily, look like the one yer neighbor has, and unless u buy the super "car" noone's really gonna notice u:P

(girls go for the guys with the classic or the super:D)

[snoopay700]

i like building it up and tuning it to perfection, kinda like buyin an old car to fix up n drive (still want my 76 corvette)

sure u can buy electros that shoot faster, feel lighter, and sometimes end up bein cheaper, but they also break easily, look like the one yer neighbor has, and unless u buy the super "car" noone's really gonna notice u:P

(girls go for the guys with the classic or the super:D)
That analogy doesn't really work on. Most electrics don't break down from electrical problems anymore, i very rarely see people with electrics having problems with their guns, and most of the problems are an easy fix unless it's with the electronics.

The main problem with electronic guns is the price.

[BiNumber3]

hmm, maybe ive had bad luck on some then, eyes have failed right out of the box on an odyssey, solenoid didnt work on a shocker i got off ebay, n thats actually about all for me, stopped buyin elctros after those 2 n a couple others lol

n u can get sub-200 electros, but u prolly get what u pay for for those ones

[snoopay700]

hmm, maybe ive had bad luck on some then, eyes have failed right out of the box on an odyssey, solenoid didnt work on a shocker i got off ebay, n thats actually about all for me, stopped buyin elctros after those 2 n a couple others lol

n u can get sub-200 electros, but u prolly get what u pay for for those ones
Actually, and i in no way advocate getting them, but i've only heard of a few cases where ions haven't worked well, and that's usually when bought second hand. I mean yeah they have a lot of plastic parts, but they still aren't horrid guns, i just don't advocate getting them because of smart parts. I've heard of a lot of stories on here about minis having problems, but when i've actually encountered them on the field and even worked on my friend's mini it's been the exact opposite, and they're only 320, the only bad thing about them is they get about half as many shots as say the bob long guns (protege gets 2000 per 68/45, mini gets like 1100 i think, but only a backman might shoot more than that in a game i think).

In my experience for the most part when something goes wrong with electronic guns it is a mechanical problem and not the actual electronics, with the exception of older electronic markers, like older spyders. I used to want a pneumatic trigger because i figured that way you don't have batteries to worry about or if the electronics go bad, but that was years and years ago, the more i got exposed to electronic guns the only thing stopping me from getting one was the price. That and people just see an old RT and don't expect it to be that fast, but if i had the option of getting a mini i would have done that, as long as i can get an aftermarket straight blade for it, i can walk the trigger on a mini but it just doesn't feel as nice.

[drg]

Well the reason now is much the same as the reason it was originally done ... it's a cheaper and easier to attain way to get electronic-level speed and performance from an automag. Emags were and are very expensive, and electronic grips are almost nonexistent. When the mod was created, universal electronic boards were also very hard to get.

[DoubleDutch]

Ok, reading this thread has inspired me to look into getting a pnuemag as my next gun. I saw the entry in the FAQ in Paintball Talk, but there is no sticky in the Tech section? Am I right that the starting point can be any RT Mag? Or does it have to be X-Valve equipped?

[snoopay700]

Ok, reading this thread has inspired me to look into getting a pnuemag as my next gun. I saw the entry in the FAQ in Paintball Talk, but there is no sticky in the Tech section? Am I right that the starting point can be any RT Mag? Or does it have to be X-Valve equipped?
You can even do it to a classic mag, the only thing you do is put a ram in the trigger frame to push the sear rather than the sear rod pushing it and instead the trigger activates a 3 way in the triggerframe. Here's a link from cyberave on pblegion that shows how to make one, and he also sells a kit in the b/s/t.

http://www.pblegion.com/showthread.php?t=818

It's not that hard to make, especially if you get his kit, which runs for about $42 i think. You'll also need to buy an LPR though, and an asa with two outlets or some other place to put the LPR.

[GoatBoy]

If an RT (ULT if you prefer) is not fast enough for you, then why are you not just shooting an electro?

Who makes a y-gripped electro marker with a warp-feed body? I'd love to have something like that. Even better if it were mag based.




The electronic maker would be faster, cheaper, more reliable, and more efficient.

Most electros still seem fairly mechanically complicated. They still have lots of o-rings in the critical path which are sensitive to what you lube them with and how you lube them.

Firsthand, the only o-ring I worry about is the LX bolt o-ring. My pre/post game preparation of my mag involves putting a few drops of silicone oil in the input (to the valve) and blasting it through. That's it.

Sure, adding all the pneumag stuff adds complexity, but it doesn't seem as touchy. And if it all fails, you just pull the grip off and put a standard trigger assembly back in.


Modern electros certainly have gotten cheaper though, and they easily win in that department.




And with the whole "hoppers have batteries too" arguement, the hopper doesn't fail-to-function without batteries... maybe a halo would (neverminding the rip-drive) but any standard agitator loader like a revy, Rico, egg, Extreme Rage, Fasta, Pinokio, and many more will still feed regardless.

By that logic, why would anyone use the AGD Flatline Air if they are going to still use it at 850psi output? I know why, because it is wicked cool!


I'll take a battery-less q-loader over a battery-less anything else any day. You might want to double check some of the loaders you mentioned as far as battery-less operation. A lot of them don't appear like they will keep feeding without power. Someone else correct me on this if I'm wrong.

I've never owned an AGD Flatline. If I did, I wouldn't be using it at 850PSI.

Pump guns are a completely different issue.


Not everything is about "cool" factor, and less so when you consider all the details.

[snoopay700]

And with the whole "hoppers have batteries too" arguement, the hopper doesn't fail-to-function without batteries... maybe a halo would (neverminding the rip-drive) but any standard agitator loader like a revy, Rico, egg, Extreme Rage, Fasta, Pinokio, and many more will still feed regardless.



By that logic, why would anyone use the AGD Flatline Air if they are going to still use it at 850psi output? I know why, because it is wicked cool!

Why would anyone use a stock-class gun with an autotrigger?
Why would you use a stock-class gun?
Why would you mod a Halo to use 9Vs even though you don't get a speed increase?

Why? Because you can, and in this country (unlike Japan) it is cool to be different!
The revy feeds worse than a gravity feed when it runs out of batteries, i know from experience, the agitator gets in the way. Same with the egg, ricos are ok, and pinokios operate like eggs or halos, i'm not sure which. Basically they may feed but it will be at a rate much worse than a gravity usually. The other ones i have no experience with and can't say anything (well pinokio i have no experience with, but i'm making an assumption since it seems to operate like a halo).

Stock class with an auto trigger is because if you get someone with a semi auto charging you and you have 10 rounds, you can pump and pray, i've never done that personally, but it's nice to know that if need be i can. And i use a stock class gun to help me tactically and also because it's a challenge. It's also the first time since i started playing paintball i actually panicked when i was up against a fast gun by myself. I play with stock class because it shows me how spoiled my pneumag has made me haha.

[neppo1345]

Major props to the OP for bringing this up.

It's honestly something that's never really crossed my mind. I automatically think "A pneumag is better because it has a lighter trigger and shoots faster", however after actually thinking it over (omg used my brain) it takes away from some major pros of the mag.

-For one, it can only make it less reliable. Murphy's law states that if something can go wrong it will... adding hose, fittings, and more pneumatic components only adds more possible failure points in a marker with a KISS design.

-Being custom, if it does go down with something more than a blown hose you're going to be done for the day. That is unless you took the time to make a second set of custom pneumatics (you did make replacement parts, didn't you?). Your local shop doesn't carry modified Clippard components.

-Yeah, it gets rid of the battery...but I would take a dead battery over a blown ram oring. I can get a battery at the pro-shop, good luck with the clippard parts.

Yes, pneumags are nice as a gee-wiz checkitoutnobatteries13ballspersecond rec play gun. However when it comes to a tournament/practice/srsbiznus it would be sitting in my gear bag.

[BiNumber3]

adding a pneu frame is pretty much like adding any other frame, at least for most setups.

if something somehow goes wrong with the pneumatics, i can easily just put my mech frame back on. so i wouldnt necessarily say yer done for the day with bad pneu's

and i dunno bout anyone else, but i've yet to blow a hose or any of my pneumatics go to crap, granted ive only had a couple pneu'd guns and have only used them for a short period

[drg]

Major props to the OP for bringing this up.

It's honestly something that's never really crossed my mind. I automatically think "A pneumag is better because it has a lighter trigger and shoots faster", however after actually thinking it over (omg used my brain) it takes away from some major pros of the mag.

-For one, it can only make it less reliable. Murphy's law states that if something can go wrong it will... adding hose, fittings, and more pneumatic components only adds more possible failure points in a marker with a KISS design.

-Being custom, if it does go down with something more than a blown hose you're going to be done for the day. That is unless you took the time to make a second set of custom pneumatics (you did make replacement parts, didn't you?). Your local shop doesn't carry modified Clippard components.

-Yeah, it gets rid of the battery...but I would take a dead battery over a blown ram oring. I can get a battery at the pro-shop, good luck with the clippard parts.

Yes, pneumags are nice as a gee-wiz checkitoutnobatteries13ballspersecond rec play gun. However when it comes to a tournament/practice/srsbiznus it would be sitting in my gear bag.

Completely ovestated and inaccurate. Smacks of jealousy and hate. :rolleyes:

[pump]

as a mag owner we should hate pneumags, emags and electronic frames

faster bps i dont get it at all, who cares if other guns are faster, the mag should never be competitive in tournies

and we need more reliability board always break or fry, and hoses not one cocker works in the world
[/sarcasm]


hahahaha stagnating innovation and claiming false pros to stifle it, whats up with that

[skife]

you can still shoot a pneumag underwater.

[snoopay700]

you can still shoot a pneumag underwater.
Even though the paint might go bad and the hopper won't work :rofl:

[Mongoose]

My main marker is a Pneumag....i've had it for over 2 years And used it all the time.
other then oil, No extra maintenance was ever required.

I have used it in the woods and on the speedball field....i never felt outgunned.

Now my invert mini on the other hand... :mad: has never worked properly for me and has been sent back to Kee five (5) times now......" reminds me that i need to go pick it up"

No matter what Marker i start the day with...i always seem to be ending it with the Pneumag.

And yes...i do carry a spare set of Pneumatics....it only cost me $40 and the parts can be swapped out in five minutes....How much is an extra board? and how much teching is needed to find out the problem with most electro's?

IMO a Pneumag is the best of both worlds.....It's a mag and it can shoot as fast as i can pull the trigger....and yes, i dont need to keep buying batteries....because through the year it adds up.

Air is free on every field i play...so the little extra air consumption isn't a big deal for me. Plus if air was a major issue...you shouldnt be shooting a mag to start with.

If you only knew how many bets i have won from all the AGG kids the swear i had a board and battery stuffed somewhere inside....and my favorite is when im told that im ramping :rofl: ......that all in its own is priceless and well worth it :cheers:

[GoatBoy]

-For one, it can only make it less reliable. Murphy's law states that if something can go wrong it will... adding hose, fittings, and more pneumatic components only adds more possible failure points in a marker with a KISS design.

Just because it is less reliable than a normal mag doesn't mean that it's less reliable than an electro. You are mixing the two. Part of what OP was asking was "Why not just use an electro?"

As an example (making numbers up), if the pneumag additions decreased reliability of a mag by, what, 1%, that might still be less than the typical reliability of of an electro, which might be 2% or something.

So you have to consider more than blanket black and white issues like, "it increases complexity."




-Being custom, if it does go down with something more than a blown hose you're going to be done for the day. That is unless you took the time to make a second set of custom pneumatics (you did make replacement parts, didn't you?). Your local shop doesn't carry modified Clippard components.

My local shop doesn't carry any mag parts at all. Does yours?




-Yeah, it gets rid of the battery...but I would take a dead battery over a blown ram oring. I can get a battery at the pro-shop, good luck with the clippard parts.

Making a comparison between an o-ring and a battery appears to be a contradiction.

All guns have o-rings. When you get down to it, most of them operate fairly similarly. The mag starts off with less critical o-rings, and then a few are added for the pneumag. That winds up bringing it near par (if not still better than) the critical o-ring count for most electros. Assuming that o-rings, which are a common wear component, are equal in count... then you have to look elsewhere for complexity. One has a battery, the other doesn't. Therefore, the one with the battery has one more component, and "can only be less reliable", right? You can't have your argument both ways.

Anyways, you should be comparing o-rings against o-rings. Take for instance an electro ram-poppet driven gun. That electro most likely has a ram with some form of o-ring in it. If you want to compare orings, compare those.

If you're talking another spool valve gun, then just pick another o-ring. They usually have tons of them. That actually has been one of the main reasons I've stayed away from electros. Too many o-rings.

What are your chances of buying a replacement for some obscure o-ring for any gun at the field?

I know what my answer is. Zero. The three fields that I frequent don't even have real shops attached to them. I couldn't even buy 9v's from them if I wanted to. Which uh... means I would lean toward the pneumag.

I've seen plenty of electros develop mystery leaks which take forever to even diagnose in the first place, all for the end result of either not wanting to bother with it, or not being able to find a replacement for the o-ring once they found it anyways.




Yes, pneumags are nice as a gee-wiz checkitoutnobatteries13ballspersecond rec play gun. However when it comes to a tournament/practice/srsbiznus it would be sitting in my gear bag.

http://www.panelsonpages.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/jump_the_shark.gif

[neppo1345]

Just because it is less reliable than a normal mag doesn't mean that it's less reliable than an electro. You are mixing the two. Part of what OP was asking was "Why not just use an electro?"

As an example (making numbers up), if the pneumag additions decreased reliability of a mag by, what, 1%, that might still be less than the typical reliability of of an electro, which might be 2% or something.

So you have to consider more than blanket black and white issues like, "it increases complexity."

I never said that a pneumag was more complicated than an electronic marker; simply that a pneumag is more complex than a stock mag.

My local shop doesn't carry any mag parts at all. Does yours?

Yep, they carry parts kits

Making a comparison between an o-ring and a battery appears to be a contradiction.

All guns have o-rings. When you get down to it, most of them operate fairly similarly. The mag starts off with less critical o-rings, and then a few are added for the pneumag. That winds up bringing it near par (if not still better than) the critical o-ring count for most electros. Assuming that o-rings, which are a common wear component, are equal in count... then you have to look elsewhere for complexity. One has a battery, the other doesn't. Therefore, the one with the battery has one more component, and "can only be less reliable", right? You can't have your argument both ways.

Anyways, you should be comparing o-rings against o-rings. Take for instance an electro ram-poppet driven gun. That electro most likely has a ram with some form of o-ring in it. If you want to compare orings, compare those.

If you're talking another spool valve gun, then just pick another o-ring. They usually have tons of them. That actually has been one of the main reasons I've stayed away from electros. Too many o-rings.

What are your chances of buying a replacement for some obscure o-ring for any gun at the field?

Actually, pretty good. The fields that I frequent have proshops and factory trained techs (SP, Eclipse, DYE,). They also carry full parts kits (everything from the board, noids, to orings) for most common markers. I guess I'm just spoiled by the abundance of local paintball knowledge. However, most only know enough about mags to slap in a rebuild kit, let alone monkey with a custom built pneumatic system.

Comparing o-rings to o-rings: Probability of anything local carrying Clippard o-rings ~0% probability of a decently stocked shop carrying an o-ring for a somewhat common marker >>>>>0%

I know what my answer is. Zero. The three fields that I frequent don't even have real shops attached to them. I couldn't even buy 9v's from them if I wanted to. [yikes] Which uh... means I would lean toward the pneumag.

I've seen plenty of electros develop mystery leaks which take forever to even diagnose in the first place, all for the end result of either not wanting to bother with it, or not being able to find a replacement for the o-ring once they found it anyways.


http://www.panelsonpages.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/jump_the_shark.gif

Difference of opinion: You need a pneumag out of necessity, I don't.

[MANN]

Yes, pneumags are nice as a gee-wiz checkitoutnobatteries13ballspersecond rec play gun. However when it comes to a tournament/practice/srsbiznus it would be sitting in my gear bag.

QFT.

Pneumags look good, fell good, shoot good. I have built dozens that have always worked great...but when its time to get to business I will grab the viking (still set in semi mode).

[drg]

This business about a "Clippard" O-ring is hogwash. There's nothing special about the o-ring in a MSV and even if there were you could get a backup MSV for cheap. In practice that o-ring doesn't fail very often.

[Tombola]

one thing that haven´t been mentioned is: electros can get out of date, the boards can get out of date. try to find replacement for a 5 year old dm board or a bolt for an old ego.

thats why i like my mags: i know that they will still work in years, and so will my pneumag. it doesn´t use any fancy part that will come out of fashion or couldn´t be replaced by something similar.

and with the pneumag mod i´m still able to compete in a speedball game.

[ezcreation]

To me pneumagging is about control: I can shoot as fast as I want it to be, no RT or bouncing.