Why hasn't mags used lighter bolt springs like Minis?

[pump]

it seems to work on minis
http://www.techtpaintball.com/mrtspringkit.html


EDIT
well i thought you guys would read the link and talking about the benefits instead of just commenting on the spring itself so ill post the text

"The TechT MRT Spring Kit provides players with three distinct levels of resistance which will allow for lower operating pressure, as well as reduced dwell times.

This means better efficiency = more time on the field, rather than the fill station."

[Frizzle Fry]

I imagine that it has to do with the Automag being a high pressure gun (600psi minimum, 900psi maximum). The mini has a lower operating pressure and needs less to return the bolt... It also has a different system than the sear on an automag (no "lever" effect as I call it).

Now, why isn't there an LP automag? Well that's a question/idea that's been kicked around a lot for the last 10 years. :p

The only reasons I've never fussed about LP mags as a) why mess with a good thing? and b) R/Ting is freekin awsum dood.

[pump]

The mini has a lower operating pressure and needs less to return the bolt... It also has a different system than the sear on an automag (no "lever" effect as I call it).
could you explain how higher psi, weight, and the sear would not allow the mag to benefit from a lighter spring?

curious

[georgeyew]

First of all, the mag valve has a stainless steel bolt that is much heavier than the one on the Mini. It would wear the spring out quickly.

[Frizzle Fry]

First of all, the mag valve has a stainless steel bolt that is much heavier than the one on the Mini. It would wear the spring out quickly.

I'm sure that has a lot to do with it, too. There are varied lenths and strengths of springs for the level 10 kit currently, and each has its purpose... It's a high pressure gun with a lot of force behind the bolt (which itself is very heavy).Illustrations like this (http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/automag3.gif) are helpful but aren't perfect because they don't take into account human error with the trigger movement (which is entirely common).

I'm fairly sure an ultralight springed mag would be extremely hard to tune and if you got it shooting you'd chuff 90% of your shots.

I'm not entirely positive, but that's my understanding. Maybe someone can give Tom a ring?

[PrimoRocker]

Why would you want a lighter spring?

[pump]

First of all, the mag valve has a stainless steel bolt that is much heavier than the one on the Mini. It would wear the spring out quickly.
it doesnt matter if it wears out or not, just asking if there are benefits like the ones the Minis are getting with lighter springs


I'm sure that has a lot to do with it, too. There are varied lenths and strengths of springs for the level 10 kit currentlywhat about LVL 7?



Why would you want a lighter spring?read the text above in first post, i thought you would of read the text in the link



ok now just to add again
if we use a lighter bolt spring, would the Mag get similar benefits that the mini gets mainly lower operating pressure(i doubt that a lower dwell time would help like in the mini's cause because of the sealed dump chamber), which would lead to better efficiency?
why? why not? please keep answers frames within the lines of efficiency and operating psi




also one other thought is the stock bolt weight and the spring would a lighter bolt need to be used or the weight of the bolt smashing into the body overly hard?
again lets separate this discussion from the efficiency and operating psi discussion

[snoopay700]

It's mainly the pressure we use in our mags, and probably to make sure it can cycle quickly. The problem with low pressure is the regs really aren't designed for it, so i don't see how it would benefit. As for efficiency, it would probably drop with lower pressure.

[pump]

It's mainly the pressure we use in our mags, and probably to make sure it can cycle quickly. The problem with low pressure is the regs really aren't designed for it, so i don't see how it would benefit. As for efficiency, it would probably drop with lower pressure."levels of resistance which will allow for lower operating pressure"

so we just need to know how low the AIR, RT, Retro and Xvalve can operate and still flow enough for 20 cps

[Frizzle Fry]

"levels of resistance which will allow for lower operating pressure"

so we just need to know how low the AIR, RT, Retro and Xvalve can operate and still flow enough for 20 cps

The invert mini is not an automag. That seems to be the main difference here... The mini (regardless of springs) was designed to work at much lower pressures than the the Classic, R/T and R/T Pro valves. If you've ever tried running an X-valve on less than 600psi tank output then you know what happens to an underfed marker. Changing the bolt spring will do nothing to effect the valve system, which is essentially a large regulator :rolleyes:

[snoopay700]

"levels of resistance which will allow for lower operating pressure"

so we just need to know how low the AIR, RT, Retro and Xvalve can operate and still flow enough for 20 cps
Precisely, although with the small passages within the marker i think that it's likely that mags are currently just above that threshold.

[dark blade]

i will answer in the terms you wish... the problem is this... the operating pressure of the automag is not decided on the bolt spring. It is decided upon everything else.

Tom kay did not make a bolt spring and design a valve around it...

if you were to lighten the spring you would still need the same amount of air behind it to get it to a high fps. The amount of operating pressure would be minimally different due to the lighter spring. Yes less friction and resistance force would allow you to lower it from say 700 to 600 but the fact is this. If you lower the operating pressure of the marker, you need to increase the volume of air to reach the same desired force.

pv=nrt... if we take out the two constants in this equation (t and r) we would have p and v directly relational to N. We change one, we need to change the other to counter it.

Since there is no way to change the "dwell" on an automag due to its dump chamber design, its impossible to increase the volume past what it is currently at. If we use a lighter bolt spring and lower the operating pressure, we need to have more air to compensate for it, and since the dump chamber seals when the trigger is pulled, it wouldnt allow for more air to enter the chamber more so than what is already in there.

in order to create a lower pressure mag, we would need to lighten the bolt, the spring, and lower the operating pressure (obviously) through adding much more volume to the marker to allow to compensate for the lower pressure, and then find a way for all of the pressure to escape before the spring returns the bolt to seal the chamber with air left inside it.



Mini's dwells are controlled electronically, the bolt can be made to be held open and closed longer or shorter through the use of air pressure, air pathways, and electronic signals to the solenoid.

[Mechanic79]

AGD uses the K.I.S.S. method, Keep It Simple Stupid

Best then, Best now!

[pump]

The invert mini is not an automag. That seems to be the main difference here... The mini (regardless of springs) was designed to work at much lower pressures than the the Classic, R/T and R/T Pro valves. If you've ever tried running an X-valve on less than 600psi tank output then you know what happens to an underfed marker. Changing the bolt spring will do nothing to effect the valve system, which is essentially a large regulator :rolleyes:
but who does the mini get better performance with a lighter mainspring, and would that apply to a mag bolt, not saying they are the same but is there any similarities that we can take advantage of



Precisely, although with the small passages within the marker i think that it's likely that mags are currently just above that threshold.
yeah if anything an electrician mod would be needed and probably not help much, maybe making a back cap and using a different reg?
it would be only way



if you were to lighten the spring you would still need the same amount of air behind it to get it to a high fps. The amount of operating pressure would be minimally different due to the lighter spring. Yes less friction and resistance force would allow you to lower it from say 700 to 600 but the fact is this. If you lower the operating pressure of the marker, you need to increase the volume of air to reach the same desired force.

pv=nrt... if we take out the two constants in this equation (t and r) we would have p and v directly relational to N. We change one, we need to change the other to counter it.
good points

what if bolt weight and bolt spring tension used up more energy than we thought?
and just by decreasing the force the air needs to push the bolt forward increased its potential energy for the ball


also one thing that im thinking about is force of the bolt hitting the body, if the spring is decreased would the bolt smash the bolt more than it should

but if psi which is also the force the pushing the bolt is lowered with that lighter spring to the same FPS as with a hard spring, wouldnt that also be the same amount of force the bolt is moving forward?

just thoughts on that any comments or ideas?

[pump]

well i found 2 stock springs of different strength and a stock mini bolt spring
and the difference was 20-30 fps between the 2 stock springs the mini bolt spring was the same as the lighter stock spring, so it makes me wonder why, also wondering if a lighter bolt would give a higher fps reading with the mini spring

[athomas]

If you lighten the mag bolt, you could probably get away with using a lighter bolt spring.

[pump]

yeah having the light stock and mini bolt spring both having the same FPS makes me think that after reducing spring weight the bolt is still the major thing the air has to fight, i wonder if i can get one of those superbolts or that aluminum bolt. who made the aluminum bolt?

[RogueFactor]

who made the aluminum bolt?

Do you mean this one?... http://www.pblegion.com/showthread.php?t=2797

[pump]

yeah that one, so its the lightest mag bolt even made?

i wonder if my chrono readings will increase with the mini spring if i used it