Newerish Guns - Ramping/Trigger Bounce

[chuey]

Hi Guys,
I left a message a few weeks ago noting that I just got back to the game after picking up a pair of B2K4 refurbs for myself. I also think I inadvertantly started that whole SP bashing again when I commented that I wouldn't buy their products anymore.

So a few weekends ago I went out to my local PB Field and played for the second time, woodsball. There were quite a few players on the other team with some of the newerish pb guns inverts, ions, angel and a marq. They were all owned by a crew that played together and it was obviously that they were s'ballers.

On my side were all non speedballers and casual players including three mothers (god bless them for actually joining in the game play with their kids).

The s'ballers worked well as a team and they were coordinated in their clearing out of their section of the field in play. They were covering all the cross angles and I admit that I was caught several times having to fend off multiple players, the end result was me getting tagged out the majority of the time. I had a great time.

But...on the other hand, I have to ask are the newweish guns these days, just THAT FAST or do these guns have boards with a ramping feature on them. The s'ballers when tagging people out, they were hitting them not once but 6 or 7 times. There wasn't an occasion when I wasn't marked an dhad my hands up to get out of the firefight, where I wasn't tagged an additional 3 or 4 times. I don't want to cry poor sportsmanship, but the moms on my team in the afternoon started to get frustrated as they were being hit multiple times after raising their hands.

Additionally one of the ladies was hit square on the top of the head as she was crawling for position and when she got up with her hands and marker up they laced into her. I ended up complaining to their refs after watching the guy on the other team call the mom a b**** and said he was going to shoot her while everyone had their masks off in the safe zone.

I'm just trying to get a sense of whethere or not these guys were just a)a bunch of dirt bags b) that guns these days are just that fast in semi-auto c) they triggered ramp modes in their guns and couldn't help that 5 or 6 extra balls met their target.

I'm a little cynical as I was in a bunker and hit had my hand up for the better part of 15 seconds and was calling myself out when they were still lacing into my location. The ref had to jump in in order for me to get out safely. And the others on my team had the same situation.

I have to say, that while I'll still be playing, its a sorry state of paintball though, when teenage boys and middle age men gang up on a bunch of moms. If I see them again, as I'm sure I will, I'll make sure I'm on the opposite team every time, because what I believe they did is unacceptable. It puts a bad taste in people's mouths who either don't have a thick skin for the sport or are new to it.

[xero28]

Yep, D-Bags.

[punkncat]

Yep, D-Bags.


Agree 100%. I am by no means superballer, but any rec day that I go to the field and due to lack of people, whatever, get mixed in with a group of new(er) players, I alwasy adjust my game play to make sure it is fun for everyone.

I most certainly would have had some things to say to that entire group. Player showing that sort of attitude are going to find themselves with no new people to play if they don't cut that out. There is an appropriate time for that, but there is not a need for showcasing your skills against a mixed team with new players on board. That is asinine.

[BigEvil]

Yep, D-Bags.


QFT.

Yes, most of the new guns have various enhanced firing modes.

[vf-xx]

Mostly they sound like poor sports.

That said, there's probably some gun stuff going on too.

I took a group of new players out recently, and due to having gun troubles, I ended up having to use a rental. This field rented Vibe's set to semi auto only. I fudged a bit and moved my rico over to it, so I wouldn't have to shake it. I ended up overshooting people by 3~4 pretty consistantly on semi. Wasn't intentional, I just wouldn't stop shooting till I saw the first one hit. Given that there were balls in the air behind it... it happens.

But I still think it sounds like they're poor sports, and I firmly believe that for rec-ball, pure semi should be enforced.

[Flatliner333]

VF-XX... were all of your people ok with the way we played against them? My buddy (JD) felt bad for lighting one of the younger dudes up, but then again our guns didn't ramp.

Question: are there fields out there that do not allow the "RT" affect but do allow ramping? If so that seems hardly fair...

[Hilltop Customs]

Additionally one of the ladies was hit square on the top of the head as she was crawling for position and when she got up with her hands and marker up they laced into her. I ended up complaining to their refs after watching the guy on the other team call the mom a b**** and said he was going to shoot her while everyone had their masks off in the safe zone.

IMO they should get thrown off the field for that. Bad sportsmanship will drive away new players, and future regulars. How likely is the mother to tell her friends(who likely also have kids) that paintball was fun that day?

Ego boosting at another players expense is sad, ego boosting at the expense of a fresh player is downright despicable.

[Toll]

Sounds like exceptional douchebaggery. I'd have had a word with the reffing staff/management. The threatening part is what really rides me, it's a game. Sounds to me like the reffing staff were probably friends with the douchebags in question and therefore will do nothing to them. The boys club mentality is a real issue.

[vf-xx]

VF-XX... were all of your people ok with the way we played against them? My buddy (JD) felt bad for lighting one of the younger dudes up, but then again our guns didn't ramp.

Yeah, everybody was cool

[Bagheera]

I've had the same experience with speedballers on a casual private field. A speedball team showed up, and though really cool guys off the field, were constantly bonus balling, and even gogged me as I walked off the field with my marker in the air. Also, unless they were shot in plain sight, wouldn't call themselves out, which meant that to take them out, we had to hit them with 3-5 direct hits in succession before they would walk off the field. Like I said, they were nice guys off the field, but I think the speedball mentality has given speedball players their own set of rules to play with.

[Jaron]

Some of column A, a lot of column B.

First off, yes, stock guns are that fast today, 10 - 15 bps easy. Even the "entry-level" guns like the Mini, SP-1, Vibe, Fusion, and G3 have some ramp modes on the stock board and the triggers are getting lighter and more sensitive. Like VF says, after you hit someone the first time, there's usually 5 balls in the air right behind the first. If you've got multiple people shooting at a single target. . . It can also take a second or two for the shooter to recognize their target has been hit. I've been lit up from behind soft cover and I don't blame the shooters. I was trying to cover myself up and raise my hand at the same time and they couldn't hear me over the noise of their guns. It happens in the game and it doesn't involve anyone being a bad sport.

Second, sometimes the honorable players have have to result to "dirty" tactics to play fair ( stay with me here! ) I play clean and so does my team, but sometimes you end up playing against the alpha-hotel that tries to get away with anything. You tag him in the mask and he'll turn and shoot at you. After the first few times of a player doing that, I'll shoot until they call themselves out. I don't like doing that and I know it rarely happens, I just wanted to throw that in here.

Your situation seems to be more along the lines of poor sportsmanship. I can excuse getting lit up under a lot a circumstances. But once I hear people bad-mouthing and threatening to break safety protocol ( such as shooting someone in the staging area, ) they've crossed the line and I won't let them back.

[Shirow]

If I had that experience at a field, I probably wouldn't go back. I definitely wouldn't have had a good time with that kind of caliber of player, whether they were on my team or not.

[Ando]

Question: are there fields out there that do not allow the "RT" affect but do allow ramping? If so that seems hardly fair...
Some of the refs that run the field where I go don't care. They'll allow anything until someone :cuss: about it. I got lit up by some 14yr old with a DM8/9 (I can’t tell the diff). Got stitched from head to toe (a good 12 hits). Ref went crazy and I told him it was no problem. I cranked up the air to 1300psi and if the kid went right I went right with him. Little man didn’t like it much but he didn’t quit. He was a hell of a target and wanted to borrow the mag half way through the day. He got the jest and apologized at the end.

Moral of the story. Put them in their place.

He was a seasoned baller so it's not like I was taking advantage.

[chuey]

I personally slow my shooting down whenever I get in a group against rental players. I caught quite a few of them last week trying to hide behind a sapling as if that would provide cover. I did my best to not light them up though and just get them out.

Also I just sent an email to Skirmish management about the situation, the threats were especially unaccaptable.

I hope to see these guys again, and I'm going to make sure that if folks are bonus balling they get some of their medicine back.

[Jaron]

That's the best way to handle it: inform the management. If it's a quality field, the staff will handle it. If they don't, it's not a field I want to play at or support.

[wetwrks]

Part of it is the players being punks. The other part is the reffs. If (in recball) a team is completely dominating they other team then they need to adjust the teams. Break up the dominating team, add more players to the losing team, things like that. I have even seen where a spare reff will grab a rental and join in to help level the playing field.

[warpfeedmod]

That is one of the reasons now I only play private games.

I did quite a few scenarios last year and there was ALOT of that going on, I brought it up to the ref at the field and he said they were the sponsored team just let it go. I went to the field manager and he sort of blew off my comments, so that night when I got home, I found the website for the field, sent an email and lo and behold it was the field owner who replied. He was unaware that the team was playing like that (despite him being at the field, and no one mentioned it to him when he was there), and he said he would have some words with the team. About a week later I got a phone call from the owner, who informed me that he dropped sponsorship of the team after hearing of numerous complaints, and offered me a one-year free membership to his field.

[steve_81]

Yea it is sad how some Paintball players are like that...in all honesty, If anyone has seen Black Balled: The bobby dukes story; It was a really low budget movie some may say mocking our game but I believe it shows Paintball how it should be.

In how we treat/handle cheaters and in regards to the players in the tournaments, it didn't matter what marker they were using. (the main objection I seen from people on PBN about the movie was "ugh, they aren't shooting ego's.") Even the part when the main characters got brand new JT markers and how excited they were when they held them...that should be how Paintball is.

[Shirow]

Yea it is sad how some Paintball players are like that...in all honesty, If anyone has seen Black Balled: The bobby dukes story; It was a really low budget movie some may say mocking our game but I believe it shows Paintball how it should be.

In how we treat/handle cheaters and in regards to the players in the tournaments, it didn't matter what marker they were using. (the main objection I seen from people on PBN about the movie was "ugh, they aren't shooting ego's.") Even the part when the main characters got brand new JT markers and how excited they were when they held them...that should be how Paintball is.

I feel lucky that I've never really had to deal with this stuff too much. I experienced it when I played competitive speedball but back playing woodsball I can honestly say I've never played with a nicer group of people than I've encountered at my local field.

Not only are the players nice but the refs are conscientious and always watching.. my first time back I was pretty hyped to get back out on the field after 3 years off and I let fly a quick string of balls at someone. The ref nearby walked past me afterwards and say 'Go easy man, that's a rental player.'

Some people might've taken offense but I was really appreciative of the fact that they were actually watching out for new players.

[Xceolite]

I agree with the above. If I encounter people like that (d-bags) i make sure they are put in there place. They will be hunted all day.
Next time...I recomend grabbing a party, finding these jerk faces and give them what they are dishing. And more if necssary.

I personally think ramping, bonus balling and full auto hurts the growth of the sport. Most first time people will not play again if they encounter it.

[Mr. Mouse]

i agree, ive played woodsball before i started playing speedball/tournaments and thats just douchbaggery, i mean common woodsballers/people just wanna go out and have fun shoot each other a few times not like 8 times in speedball to make sure someone is out because someone is whiping, woodsball players have more respect than that and i know it for i use to play it and still play it once in a while because it is fun running through the woods and whatnot, its definitly nice to have a change once in a while then running up to inflated bunkers and just spraying the **** outta each other, althought it is fun :) but all in all i agree they should have adjusted there playing to compensate everyone else for the field, and to play with ramping is rediculous on a woodsball field if you have to shoot ramping in the woods then you must be a horrible player

[Toll]

So, how did the management respond? I'm kind of curious.

[snoopay700]

Gah, this has degraded into a woodsball vs speedball thread. While i will admit that speedball can spawn people like this, there are just as big of douche bags in woodsball. Luckily they seem to be much fewer, but it's not the type of game that causes douchebags, they'll show up anywhere. Two ways to deal with them are to give them their own medicine or report them. I suggest the latter, but if they do nothing, rip into them because if you do get kicked off that's likely not a field you'll want to go back to.

[warbeak2099]

Face it, there are just as many douchebags in woodsball as there are in speedball. I've played plenty of times with hardcore woodsballers that felt as though they were entitled to do whatever the hell they wanted to the noobs and the speedballers that come out to play on the woods field once in a while. They wiped, they overshot, they cursed, they played on, etc.

To the OP, yea, it's not that hard to shoot pretty fast on semi with a gun that has a well set up trigger and good code on the board. I wouldn't jump to anyone conclusions about them using modes, but yea, they're d-bags.

[pk5]

I have to agree with warbreak here there are as much Dbag playing wood ball as speed ball. Last week when I went out with a group I haven't play with for a long time, we had a few player on the other team dressing in full camo / remote line / Response Trigger A5 just to intimidate the other side. I guess they are just used to playing against 1st and second time rental, that they were acting pretty cocky the entire game, and throwing F bomb everytime they got shot out.

So people like that are everywhere, sometime they may not be pro, but they think they are due to their gun either electros or mil sim look alike.

Too bad last weekend they were against my god daughter wielding an emag, pneumag, and ICD FS

[Shirow]

Well, I don't know who's post people got that idea from but I certainly wasn't saying speedballers are idiots and woodballers aren't - just stating that I feel lucky I have a field nearby with a good group of people playing. It just so happens to be a woodsball field.

[snoopay700]

Well, I don't know who's post people got that idea from but I certainly wasn't saying speedballers are idiots and woodballers aren't - just stating that I feel lucky I have a field nearby with a good group of people playing. It just so happens to be a woodsball field.
There were quite a few people saying that stuff wasn't a problem in woodsball because they all just want to have fun. The fact still remains that a douchebag is a douchebag regardless of where he is, and that they are everywhere in the sport.

[wetwrks]

The fact still remains that a douchebag is a douchebag regardless of where he is, and that they are everywhere in the sport.

Yep.

[Coralis]

Unfortunately I've run into this too frequently locally and it has really sucked the fun out of the game.

[fishmishin]

Yeah I have played on several fields this year and it just seems to be happening almost everywhere, with woosballers and speedballers. It sucks to, the game just isn't the same as it used to be. :(

[kopfjaeger]

I run into this every time I play recball. Its just the culture of of the douchebaggery that have taken over the sport. It seems like this is the attitude of at least half of the players, the F everybody attitude. I am quick to blame it on teenagers, but I see adults doing it as well.

I have scaled back my play and usually only play private games as it is absolutely no fun to play recball against a-hole tournament players. Our private games have the respect and dignity that is missing from most of paintball.

These days, there is no separation of competetive ballers from people out to just have a good time. I have been playing since the 80's. We used to shake hands after a good game or a good shot. Tournament players used to give tips to each other on improving their game. Now its all about kicking each others butt if you don't like 20 shots from head to toe. I have tried to start mech only games, but field owners generally don't care. They just want high numbers of people and $.

In the last few years, I have seen the quality of refs drop drastically. They are no longer refs, only safety monitors. Occasionally there is a good one , but they are few and far between.
This is the attitude in the SoCAl paintball scene. I am stuck playing only private or AO games.

[snoopay700]

Yeah I have played on several fields this year and it just seems to be happening almost everywhere, with woosballers and speedballers. It sucks to, the game just isn't the same as it used to be. :(
That's another fallacy i believe. Granted it's not like when paintball first started, but that's because it wasn't as popular, as it got more and more popular more people started playing, which upped the chances of there being huge jerks playing. The sport has always had them, it's just there are more of them now than when paintball started since there are more players now.

[athomas]

Its not woodsballers vs speedballers. The bad sportsman mentality happens on both the speedball field and on the woodsball field. Its established players vs new players. Unfortunately, there are some established players that think they are too good to be shot out by a new or rental player. They will do what ever it takes to stay in the game. When it comes to bonus balling the other players, they blame it on the speed of their equipment. In reality, they just haven't got the quick recognition skills to know if a player is out or not. They are "wanna be" superstars. They can only feel good about themselves by beating other players with less experience. And that is because they take a beating if they step on a competitive field against a tournament team. They will never really get any better though, because they are afraid to get hit and to be beaten. The first thing a good player learns, is not to be afraid to be taken out of a game. Once you get over that hurdle, you become a dangerous (in a good way) player on the field.

[[NA]WARLORD]

So, how did the management respond? I'm kind of curious.

I am wondering this too, why wasn't the teams more evenly divided by the firepower ? Isn't that part of the managements job ? It was when I was a ref.......

[athomas]

A good ref or field manager would always try to keep the teams evenly matched. Its good for business in two ways. One, the games last longer so everyone gets more playing time and more out of the experience. Two, generally speaking, if you are in the game longer you shoot more paint. You always want your clients going away happy and spreading the word on their great experience at your facility.

As a veteran player, I always made it a point to join the weakest team in open walk-on days. I also set my gun to semi and was very careful not to go crazy on the trigger. I would try for single shot kills. That was my goal when playing less experienced players, movement over firepower.

[that one guy]

I was playing pump ( woodsball ) and tried to run up on someone, and got hit. While sitting there with my hands up I got shot about a dozen times in the head/gun/arms/everywhere else. :cuss: the ref actually stepped in between me and the other players. The kids later apologized, ( i think at the refs request ) but it sucked. If I was new I probably would have went home.

[snoopay700]

I was playing pump ( woodsball ) and tried to run up on someone, and got hit. While sitting there with my hands up I got shot about a dozen times in the head/gun/arms/everywhere else. :cuss: the ref actually stepped in between me and the other players. The kids later apologized, ( i think at the refs request ) but it sucked. If I was new I probably would have went home.
Yeah, that's why with woodsball i try to not go out into the open much when i play stock class. I'm not afraid to get hit, i just don't like getting hit a million times. It happens, it sucks, but it happens. Granted what happened to you is very extreme, and if it was that blatant of bonus balling i would have been really pissed.

[XM15]

I have been playing 18 years and the biggest change I have seen is spoiled brat kids playing. I know I'm old but when I started playing you had to be 16 to play. It was very rare to ever see parents hanging around the field unless they were playing too. Now its like its a weekend soccer game. Mom and dad sitting, watching. and pulling out the credit card. We all had jobs and paid for $115 cases of paint, entry fees and air fills out of our pockets. The only thing 16 year olds could aford to play with then was a pump if they had a semiauto they were real careful about pulling the trigger. Back in those days too the refs were mature (college age or older) and the vast majority of the players were mature and they kept the few 16 year old kids inline now its reversed. The judges are inmature high schoolers or younger and the vast majority of the players are too.

[fishmishin]

That's another fallacy i believe. Granted it's not like when paintball first started, but that's because it wasn't as popular, as it got more and more popular more people started playing, which upped the chances of there being huge jerks playing. The sport has always had them, it's just there are more of them now than when paintball started since there are more players now.

I would have to somewhat disagree with you on that one myself. I have played on fields that had just as many players in any given day as what I see at field these days. I don't really see the big number gains difference on the fields. It was just a better group of guys back then, and the refs were a lot better. At least were I worked at as head ref. I was probably the last guy you wanted to catch you goofing off and not doing your job, trust me. It's just plain different thats all. I am not going to even say we didn't have jerks back then, but they were handled a lot different than the are now, and because of the better reffing that they were more likely to be caught. I haven't been to a field yet since I have come back to playing were I thought the refs did above a sub par job. Maybe because it's not what I am used to seeing, I dunno know. I just haven't seen it yet and I have played on several different fields, in 3 different states, since I have been back. I am not going to blame it all on the refs either. On one hand it is up to us to let field management know what is going on. Like when I saw a ref on the field texting his girlfriend while the final battle is going on. If I hadn't made them aware of it they would have never known. I think the field owners should spend more time on the field watching what is going on themselves also. I am hoping that the company I work for will be opening a field in the area soon. If we can get everything worked out hopefully it will be open this year. I can promise you there will be a different kind of refs at this field since I am going to be the one running it. If not I am going to go through a lot of refs. I am determined to make it a place where new and old players can compete without the kind of things I have seen happen while playing this year. I have my work cut out for me for sure. I have several people mention that it will be hard to regulate. I think they are wrong, I think it takes the right refs and enough of them. I may run a few customers off because they won't like my rules, but chances are they won't be the kind of players I want at the facility anyway. Anyway thats my take on it, it has to start with the refs first !!

[Ando]

I think the mans got a point Fish. How else can you explain the sport going to hell? Quality not quantity. In a perfect world, both would be ideal but when the masses are "jerks". Meh..

It all comes down to upbringing in the sport. Most of this last gen of kids are a lost cause but like you were saying, refs are the key to all this.

I did a lot of refing when I was in Panama and Germany. Mainly because only a handful of us had any time under our belts. The sport hadn't really kicked off at all in Panama and it was somewhat solid in Germany. German law was probably the biggest factor in the sport. Not sure how it is now but there was talk about banning it all together when I was there. I'm sure some of "Unsere Freunde" can shed some light on how it is now.

But anyways. I rarely ran into any hotheads back in the day. Most of the "jerks" were military guys like myself but there's reasons behind that. :rolleyes:

Now a days...forget it. Don't want the headache. :tard:

I'll def be the first to strangle or light-up :shooting: me a 13yr old.

[fishmishin]

I don't really know where things went awry as I was out of playing rec ball for way to long, so I just can't say. I have a hard time just blaming it on there is more people, maybe the caliber of people, but I would have to question who's fault it is that the caliber of the people decayed, maybe the younger players just lacked positive models of what a respectable player actually is. Maybe I am just misunderstanding, or maybe everybody just got tired of it and threw there hands up and said to heck with it I can shoot that fast too. It certainly isn't the same game as what I used to know. I still love the sport and I still believe it can be carried on in a respectable manner. I know I am tired of hearing stories of people, especially walk-ons(rental) being overshot. I know with the rate of fire at most fields it is hard to not be overshot, but that is on the players and the refs to fix. I just don't see where it is necessary to put out that much paint to get someone out. I remember buying a case of Proball for $120 a case, and it lasting me 2-3 weekends of playing. I didn't have to shoot fast to get someone out. Now it's just "let's see if we can get this whole hopper of paint in the air, to get that one guy out of that bunker while my gun is set to ramp at 20bps". To me it's pretty stupid. Don't get me wrong I love the fact that the gun I just put together a week ago can roll on at 17-19 bps, but that is more for show for me. I haven't let it go on the field like that yet. I haven't seen the reason to. If I feel like I need to put out more paint it's all done on single trigger pulls. I hate ramping plain and simple, I think it was a stupid idea. I don't know who brought it to the market but they should get a good quick stiff kick in the lower extremities. It probably wouldn't be as bad if it wasn't in the hands of the wrong people, but it is. I am still not sure about that though either. I look at it as you can shoot this fast or you can't. Or you are this accurate or your not. These are some of things that I have in mind for helping out when we get the field open, if we ever do. I am open to suggestions also !!

1- 10 bps cap, period Yes I know I am killing the paint sales, but it is just plain safer and more enjoyable to new players. It's probably still to fast actually.
2- NO RAMPING AT ALL
3- Wiping will be handled with zero tolerance
4- Every effort will be made to keep teams as balanced as possible.
5- There will be a 1:10 ratio for refs, meaning there will be a ref for every 10 players on the field.
6- All games will have a time limit. This way we can make sure that everyone will get back in the game quickly.
7- All games will have a 5 minute turn around. Meaning that once the head ref walks off the field you have 5 minutes to be lined up for the next game, and he should be the last one off the field.

I know these are considered standard rules at most fields, but I question how much they are actually enforced. I plan on having them enforced strictly. This still has to be about safety of the players, no matter what age or experience.

I want to make the field more like a family atmosphere. I love seeing a parent out playing with their kids. All 3 of my kids like to play but only 1 is old enough to get on a field, and I would be very cautious to let her on a field these days with some of the jerks that are out there now. It would just end up with me wanting to kick someone's butt. I know of several families that play on a regular basis, and I believe that in this day and age that needs to be promoted. Now if it ever was, it is important to spend time with your kid. I think that is part of the reason why we see a lot kids on the field these days that have the F everybody else attitude. I am in no way just blaming it on the kids, speedballers, or woodsballers alone. I don't believe that it is just one side or the other but everybody as a whole. I think it will be up to all of us to start to make the effort to change it. We have to take the responsiblity to make better players, of ourselves and those who play around us. That is the attitude of the scenario team that I am on now and one of the reasons I joined that team. We strive to be stewards of the game, and to show everyone around us that the game can still be enjoyed by everyone if played in a respectable manner. I have seen some of these guys jump in and get shot to pieces to prevent a walk on player from getting the same treatment.

Ando I think your cool, and I don't really want to single you out or anything, but use you as an example more or less. You lighting up that 13 year old kid really won't show him anything. I understand it will show him how it feels, but I am not sure that will do the trick to keep him from returning the favor to the next player. I guess I really can't offer a suggestion as to what would other than showing him the same courtesy that you would expect while playing. Somewhere along the way this sport lost that respect for the other players. It is my belief that we will have to find it again someway for the game to carry on. Anyway I guess I have taken up enough space here in my coffee fueled rant. These are just some of the thing I think that will help thats all. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, cause if they do then the world will probably end tonight, lol !!

[Shirow]

That's the kind of field I like to play at :)

I think what killed it, honestly, was the tournament scene to some degree. What was different, back in the day, is that even if you had a semi, pulling 5bps was pretty crazy. Now we talk about 10bps like it's slow.

Now, before anyone gets all speedballers vs woodsballers - that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, the tournament scene specifically spawned a huge arms race that has finally started to slow down a little bit but it also spawned a ton of the 'aggro' junk that you see today as kids that were desperate to win did whatever necessary.

I think a lot of that rubbed off on a lot of people and it's still being passed around today.

I still distinctly remember the last tournament I played in before I quit paintball 3 years ago. We lost to some team and the last guy walks out with a giant paint splat right on his belt. I pointed it out and said he had been hit - not even really trying to change the outcome, just mentioning that it was a big hit for the ref to not notice. The kid then (over the period of about 2 minutes):

Got up in my face screaming about how it was 'just splatter' when it was clearly a break (with shell)
Got up in the refs face and started insulting him, his mother and everyone else
Informed me that I enjoyed the company of men because I was shooting a mag (don't even remember what he had, didn't really care.)
Took off his mask (on the field) and threw it at the ref

The funny thing is, nobody was even going to take any action on it.. I was just pointing it out to the ref as a 'why aren't you watching more closely' type of thing.

Thankfully, he got promptly ejected but I just thought to myself after that point - this isn't even fun and I'm done.

[Ando]

Ando I think your cool, and I don't really want to single you out or anything, but use you as an example more or less. You lighting up that 13 year old kid really won't show him anything. I understand it will show him how it feels, but I am not sure that will do the trick to keep him from returning the favor to the next player. I guess I really can't offer a suggestion as to what would other than showing him the same courtesy that you would expect while playing. Somewhere along the way this sport lost that respect for the other players. It is my belief that we will have to find it again someway for the game to carry on. Anyway I guess I have taken up enough space here in my coffee fueled rant. These are just some of the thing I think that will help thats all. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, cause if they do then the world will probably end tonight, lol !!

Maybe it's just me in my old age but I'm a firm believer of the old saying "An eye for an eye". Putting people in their place works on and off the field. I know one 17yr old kid is leery play when I'm on. He's one of those :tard: that don't care about other peoples well being. Refs call him on it sometimes but they can't be there with him 24/7. Mistakes happen, I've done it once before and apologize to the guy the second the game was over but constant abuse is absurd. One thing I've realize coming back semi hardcore to the sport after a on/off 8yr hiatus. It's redonkulous now.

Reason being it would be best if I never ref a game.

[fishmishin]

Like I said I wasn't picking on you by no means at all. It's just the way I look at it. Believe me I have had it happen since I have been back, and have walked around for the rest of the day waiting to return the favor. I know how it feels all to well. I got shot by a guy around the age of 30 in the side of the goggles, and I thought it broke, turned out that it hadn't but I called myself out, put my barrel bag on my gun, put my gun in the air along with my other hand, and proceeded to exit the field. Only to get about 5' from the bunker and have the same guy come out and shoot me a bout 10 more times, once in the armpit. I couldn't even speak to him because nothing would have come out in a fashion that would have been appropriate for the kids around me to hear. The whole time the ref is standing there laughing at me, he was around 16-17 years old. What I wanted to do was pummel both of them. If I told you I wasn't keeping an eye out for him for the rest of the day I would be telling you bold face lie. Fortunately for me & him he seemed to find his way on my team for the rest of the day. He never even acknowledged what he had done. This same guy has a bad habit of not calling his self out on a regular basis also. I saw a video of a guy who ran in on him as he was laying behind a bunker wiping paint off of himself after being shot in the mask. He took 3-4 on the top of the head that time. Was it enjoyable to see it , YES it was. Do I think it was right, no. I think the refs should have been doing a better job to begin with, and if they can't keep him under control escort him off the field. It's at a military installation so I'm sure the MP's would have no problems making it happen. So basically what I am saying is I see where your coming from, but I just don't think it should ever have to come to that, that's all. There is a fine line between being a steward of the game, and being the same person that wronged you. You can stand on any side of the fence you want to. It's totally up to you. I have to catch myself on a regular basis from going back on the field to hunt another player down and dealing them the same plate I have received from them. My personal feelings on that though is it is one of the things that got us where we are today, and it just won't help to turn things around. That 17 year old kid may be leery to play when your playing but what is stopping him from doing the same thing to someone else who is playing for the first time. It should be your refs, or you speaking to the field management about what is going on since the ref staff doesn't seem to be capable of taking care of it. Like I said I don't think any more or less of you because of your opinion on it, this is just the way I look at it.

[snoopay700]

I would have to somewhat disagree with you on that one myself. I have played on fields that had just as many players in any given day as what I see at field these days. I don't really see the big number gains difference on the fields. It was just a better group of guys back then, and the refs were a lot better. At least were I worked at as head ref. I was probably the last guy you wanted to catch you goofing off and not doing your job, trust me. It's just plain different thats all. I am not going to even say we didn't have jerks back then, but they were handled a lot different than the are now, and because of the better reffing that they were more likely to be caught. I haven't been to a field yet since I have come back to playing were I thought the refs did above a sub par job. Maybe because it's not what I am used to seeing, I dunno know. I just haven't seen it yet and I have played on several different fields, in 3 different states, since I have been back. I am not going to blame it all on the refs either. On one hand it is up to us to let field management know what is going on. Like when I saw a ref on the field texting his girlfriend while the final battle is going on. If I hadn't made them aware of it they would have never known. I think the field owners should spend more time on the field watching what is going on themselves also. I am hoping that the company I work for will be opening a field in the area soon. If we can get everything worked out hopefully it will be open this year. I can promise you there will be a different kind of refs at this field since I am going to be the one running it. If not I am going to go through a lot of refs. I am determined to make it a place where new and old players can compete without the kind of things I have seen happen while playing this year. I have my work cut out for me for sure. I have several people mention that it will be hard to regulate. I think they are wrong, I think it takes the right refs and enough of them. I may run a few customers off because they won't like my rules, but chances are they won't be the kind of players I want at the facility anyway. Anyway thats my take on it, it has to start with the refs first !!
I agree with that, but i wasn't talking on a local level. There are vastly more people playing now than there were even 10 or 15 years ago, and as that figure increases the number of d-bags increases at the same rate. Sure at the fields there aren't more people every weekend necessarily, i see that as a ref, but there are just more people playing the game, more newer people, and more guns that can reach a high ROF for cheaper. There is a large number of things contributing to why there are more douche bags out on the field, but there being more players is one of them.

Luckily at our field our refs are good, so that isn't much of a problem, but yesterday we did get info that there was some overshooting (i wasn't reffing that game so i didn't see what happened), from the sound of it it may have been just multiple people shooting at the poor person, but the ones that were accused of it we are going to keep an extra heavy watch on now to ensure that they aren't doing it, and if they are we'll keep kicking them from the field until they stop or if it comes down to it the owner just decides he doesn't want the person at the field, although something tells me that it won't likely happen simply because i know the guy that was accused, and if he was doing it and is kicked for it he either won't come back or he will stop doing it.

But hey, maybe i'm one of the ones that lucked out because the players i looked up to at my field were the guys who were honorable, and i can't remember a time when i wiped a hit, i have kept playing after i got hit when the person that shot me called out before they shot me, but i can't remember wiping ever. I sure as hell have wanted to wipe at some times, but i knew that i would be disappointed in myself later. Sadly there are a lot of people who wouldn't be.

[Shirow]

I've never really even understood wiping but I guess it's just my personality. I don't find it fun to cheat to win, I wouldn't even have a good time doing it. It's literally never even occurred to me. I don't use cheats in videogames either though because it makes it boring to me so I guess it's the same thing :p

[snoopay700]

I've never really even understood wiping but I guess it's just my personality. I don't find it fun to cheat to win, I wouldn't even have a good time doing it. It's literally never even occurred to me. I don't use cheats in videogames either though because it makes it boring to me so I guess it's the same thing :p
Yeah that's how i've always felt about it. I mean i could cheat and win easily, but what's the point. Like i said, i've wanted to wipe because i've been hit in a really stupid way, but i decided against it because i wouldn't be able to face myself afterward.

As far as the ref laughing at you Fish, that's just despicable, i yell at people who are shooting at someone dead that they are dead and to let them out. The only thing i do for enjoyment with reffing is if i see someone lying in ambush i just pretend like they aren't there then watch as they shoot the unsuspecting guys, but then i'm also right there to make sure that when they call out or i see it break they are let out.

[chafnerjr]

Admittedly I didn't read EVERY post here, but at my field the original guy mentioned would be kicked off simply for threatening to shoot someone in the safe zone. I know the discussion has gone a lot further now, but forget the bonus balling. Any personal threats should be dealt with in a corporeal sort of manner.

Aside from that let's face it: A fields ref staff really seems to be the major difference. There are D-Bag's in every town in every state in every country. Good players, focused ref's and involved management are the ONLY answers... besides going and playing on your own. I'll stay out of the rest of the discussion ;)

[chuey]

Message I received from the field owner, I'm glad it was addressed!


"Thank you for your email-your playing experience is important to us. I
also appreciate your "stand-up" and honest playing type-unfortunately
not all players believe in playing with sportsmanship in mind. What
you experienced that day I am proud to say that our judges did report
to me and I was able to speak to both the mom and the teenager. Both
parties cooled off and, in fact, the teenager apologized to the mom
for overshooting and being rude. I couldn't have been happier!

Thanks again, Chris-and please ask for me on your next visit-I want to
shake your hand!"

[fishmishin]

Well that's cool. I am glad to see that the ref staff took the initiative to have something done about it, and i am that the field owner stepped in him self and took care of the matter at hand. I wish things like this didn't happen, but they do. At least someone out there is trying to make it change. Way to go Chuey for stepping up to the plate to let the ref know whats going on. They can't always be there to see everything. :

[ezcreation]

It all depends on fields owner to be honest.

Most of the fields we play now are asking to remove ramping or full auto. From time to time there is a kid who wants to be the star and go nuts...No problem, hit me once and I will track you down and the next time make you understand how it feels. Light up my teammates and we will all respond the same.

When we see beginners we usually stay around and help them move so they enjoy it. That s how the sport should be.

And extreme, once only I faced a kid (around 18) who was ramping like a maniac and thought it was fun to shoot players with hands up until he went banana on me. I walked towards him, grabbed his mask (keeping it tight to his face) and warned him that this was enough. I dont like doing that but even the refs talked to him after to let him know he was just an idiot.

I have nothing against players using electros on the field. You can walk your fingers fast, good for you, at least there are skills involved. When sballers come to woodsland they are as mentioned before used to overshoot: just go talk to them and ask them to just shoot couple of times on someone.

This is supposed to be fun no?