looking for a sub compact pistol

[MANN]

I am in the market for a small carrying pistol. I am not a huge fan of revolvers, but I guess I would take them into consideration. I am almost sold on the Kel Tec P3AT (.380) right now. I want something around the same size (length 5.2", height 3.5", width .77", weight loaded 11.1oz, 6 rounds)

I know a few of you guys carry so I figured this would be a good spot to get opinions. My XD-9 is way to big for an every day carry.

[Automag88]

My XD-9 is way to big for an every day carry.

I was gonna recommend an XD-40 haha

[BiNumber3]

My dad used to have a makarov, was quite small, don't remember exact dimensions n weight tho. Pretty simple and efficient design.

hmm just wiki'ed it, seems it's just a bit larger than what you want

[WickedKlown2]

Stay with Springfield and get the XD9 Sub Compact... Very small and reliable... Also it's going to make one heck of a racket when fired,,, so if you don't hit your intended target you are going to scare the crap out of them on noise alone...

here's a link: http://www.springfield-armory.com/xd.php?version=59

Hope that helps Bro.

WK2

[MoeMag]

http://www.naaminis.com/
Awesome company. I am going to pick up a pug in 22mag very shortly. They do have a neat little auto.

http://www.bondarms.com/
Perhaps the most sturdy built gun on the planet.

[neppo1345]

Currently looking at the Ruger LCP ...
Also a fan of the S&W M&P .40 Sub Compact...

[MANN]

Stay with Springfield and get the XD9 Sub Compact...

I really wanted to, but i want something that is completely concealable. Something I can put in my pocket.


http://www.naaminis.com/
Awesome company. I am going to pick up a pug in 22mag very shortly. They do have a neat little auto.

http://www.bondarms.com/
Perhaps the most sturdy built gun on the planet.

I like the guardian that naa makes. The only reason I was leaning toward the kel tec is the weight & price factor.

One of my brothers has a pistol similar to the ones shown at bondarms (heck it might even be one of theirs). The downside to it is the weight, and only having 2 shots.


Currently looking at the Ruger LCP ...


I will have to check this one out.

Thanks for the suggestions guys. keep them coming.

[busby]

http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Weapons/Articles/2009/06/Kahr-Arms-P380-Subcompact-Pistol.aspx glock 27 or 36?

[Chace]

Beretta Tomcat would be something to consider. My stepfather can put it in his pocket in plain clothing. For short range/self defense a 32 would have fair stopping power. I would say anything past 15 yards wouldn't do much more than a 22 lr round.

[Lohman446]

I have a Keltec P3AT - the frame broke where the spring goes to it and has rendered the gun unoperational. Supposedly Keltec will fix this if I send it in.

However, a pocket pistol must be 100% reliable, and from my own experience and this experience I would pronounce this an unacceptable failure. Ruger LCPs have not had a stellar track record from what I hear.

I had a Beretta Tomcat for awhile. The bad: Heavy for its size (not too bad) and only available in 32 (no 380). That being said both the 32 and 380 should come in on the same scale - not a great round but better than a 22 or 25.

My favorite - and stretching it a long ways for pocket carry would be a Smith and Wesson Airweight 38 revolver. The pocket 357s with that short barrel do not impress me (though I like my SP101 I would not consider it a pocket gun).

Of course, if I was going to spend the money and go all out the http://www.rohrbaughfirearms.com/ R9 fits your needs - 14.3 ounces with magazine - pocketable size, and 9MM. Of course the $800 price tag is a draw back.

The NAA guardian is heavy, though gets good reviews otherwise

Seecamp is the cult favorite.

Getting service accuracy out of those guns is not easy. I have a laser on my P3AT in a modified nemesis holster. It breaks up the outline giving it a square "not a gun" outline if it prints. The "lesser" cartridges give less room for error.

If I had to chose form the above, and you told me the Airweight was not a pocket gun I would pick the Beretta with some "serious" ammo such as corbon

[MANN]

My favorite - and stretching it a long ways for pocket carry would be a Smith and Wesson Airweight 38 revolver.

My father in law carries one of these. It is amazing how light they are.



Of course, if I was going to spend the money and go all out the http://www.rohrbaughfirearms.com/ R9 fits your needs - 14.3 ounces with magazine - pocketable size, and 9MM. Of course the $800 price tag is a draw back.


I did not realize that they made pocket sized 9mms. I looked for ^^ one, and it looks like its ~1100msrp right now. Which defiently keeps it out of my price range for the moment(but a huge possibility in the future). I am actually looking to buy 2 of whatever I get (one for me and one for the wife)

While searching for the rohrbaugh 9mm I ran across another new pocket 9mm.

Microtech small arms Archangel 9mm

http://www.tactical-life.com/online/products/microtech-archangel/

It has a 5+1 cap, and lipseys is stating that the weight is only 7.1oz and msrp is under 500.00

http://www.lipseys.com/itemdetail.aspx?itemno=MS350-1R-MCP&mfg=Microtech+Small+Arms+Research

I called microtech this morning, and talked to a guy named zach. He said if everything goes as scheduled that they will be released in time for Christmas.

I am on the fence if I want to be a "beta" tester for a new gun like this. On one hand it looks like everything one could want/need, but on the other it has not gone through the "field" testing that most of the other pistols have.

[Lohman446]

Most first generation "micro" pistols have had issues reported that have cleared up in the second run. The ones I can recall off hand

Ruger LCP - safety recall - (failure of hammer block safety) + ejection issues (ejected shells recovered 20 feet away)
Beretta Tomcat - failure to eject / stovepiping
Rorbourgh - failure to feed
Keltec - general breakage in the P3AT - though no such complaints from the 32 IIRC
Seecamp - general tolerance issues.

The microtech you brought up is intriguing none the less. So is the bond arms listed above (I like because its available in the 357 / 38 variant matching the SP101 and Airweight that I am thinking will become my standard carry arms).

[Lohman446]

I hate you all.. now I need to find someone who sells Bond Arms around here....

As to pricing - yopu can always check gunsamerica.com

[Lohman446]

This one snuck in on me. Personally I don't like Kahrs but they make a P380

Length 4.9"
Height 3.9"
Width .75"
Pistol (no magazine) 9.9 ounces

Some of the Kahr PM series are close too, and far closer to a combat size pistol

PM40
Length: 5.35"
Height: 4"
Width: not published
15.8 ounces empty

[MANN]

I ran across this during lunch today. I found it useful when comparing firearms.

http://www.mouseguns.com/PocketAutoComparison.pdf

[punkncat]

Walther PPK......it's good enough for 007.......


:D

[Lohman446]

Sig P238? Not sure it was mentioned but its pretty impressive. Killer on 380s is training cost

[SSP REAPER]

I don't care so much about size, but my everyday carry is a Glock model 22 in .40 S&W
I wear it in a Bianchi Shadow holster and all is good :D

But, if your looking for a lot of bang out of pocket sized, stick with the XD9 in Sub compact form. They are great pistols and will do everything you need and more.

[MANN]

But, if your looking for a lot of bang out of pocket sized, stick with the XD9 in Sub compact form. They are great pistols and will do everything you need and more.

I would love to be able to carry a pistol of that size and caliber, but that is not a "pocket" sized pistol. I don't like others to know that I have a pistol.

[Lohman446]

The unfortunate thing is some people cannot get over the fact that a Glock 26, a XD "subcompact" and Smith and Wesson Airweight are not pocketable guns, not in normal everyday clothing at least. The reference to "mouseguns" is often done with disdain. That being said a 22 in your pocket is better than a 12 gauge in your truck. A 32 is even better in your pocket, and the list goes up from there.

I carry a G26 or SP101 almost all the time. That being said they are in very expensive holsters on a very expensive gun belt with carefully selected clothes. And PS - around here you can get away with a bit of "printing" through clothing.

Not everyone has the luxury of setting there own dress code. My P3AT could be carried when I was wearing virtually anything and concealed. I would like another one of those "throw in the pocket" guns for occasions where I don't feel like a "compact" gun. For those doing it with airweight revolvers you are wearing different clothing than I do.

The guns we carry are not fighting guns. We do ourselves a disservice as we think of 40 and 45 (or 357) as great gun rounds - they are great carryable pistol rounds. The fact is they have a lot more in common with a 22 than a real round out of a fighting gun. Handguns are the daggers of yesteryear - someone good can make them useful, but not as useful as any number of long guns. You will be outgunned by virtually any long gun, and you better have a serious amount of skill and training to overcome it. Too often people think of the 45 and 357 as the ultimate rounds. They may be the benchmarks of what they do, but they are not some magically effective round.

Don't let caliber considerations get you down. A 32 is closer to a 45 than a 45 is to a 500 or any long gun round.

[Lohman446]

9MM: 124 grains @ 1050 FPS = 304 foot lbs of energy at the muzzle

40: 180 grains @ 950 FPS = 361; 155 grains @ 1050 FPS = 379

45: 200 grains @ 900 FPS = 360; 185 @ 1000 FPS = 411

357 Magnum: 125 @ 1400 FPS = 544 (Hornady's velocities - should be noted most of the other cartridges velocity numbers come from about a 4" barrel, this is an 8" barrel)

32 Auto: 60 @ 900FPS = 108

380: 90 @ 950 FPS = 180

On first glance it looks like, wow, the 45 and 357 rule. To put the numbers into perspective

30/30: 150 grains at 2200 FPS = 1612

No pistol is good. Those that act as if the 40, 45 etc are godlike are not understanding how lacking all of the commonly carried pistol calibers are.

[MANN]

30/30: 150 grains at 2200 FPS = 1612


wow I have never looked up the power of rifles. I didnt realize how much of a difference there is. ( I knew there was one, but didnt think it was that durastic)

[MANN]

The unfortunate thing is some people cannot get over the fact that a Glock 26, a XD "subcompact" and Smith and Wesson Airweight are not pocketable guns, not in normal everyday clothing at least.

I have tried shopping at 2 local gunsmiths, and I cant tell you how many people wanted to sell me a baby glock. I agree they are great guns, but veery hard to hide in jeans and a tee shirt.

/on a side note I am assuming that you are not allowed to open carry in michigan lohman? I know herer in TN we can carry it on our forehead, and they dont care (they being the law)...but none the less I dont want people to see my pistol.

[bornl33t]

wow I have never looked up the power of rifles. I didnt realize how much of a difference there is. ( I knew there was one, but didnt think it was that durastic)

Consider the tool for the job, a pistol is by design a close range defensive weapon. It's designed for short range and when the rifle is no longer an option. A rifle is by design for engagement that would be considered medium to long range. He noted muzzle velocities. If you think a pistol is going only 20-50 feet and therefore looses less kinetic energy then the rifle at 200-500 yards. The comparison is still valid I just felt like explaining why the differences are there.....

[maxama10]

Lohman touched on this, but I'm liking the look of the Sig P238 also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PgrjCy58d0&feature=channel_page

For those of you who are able to get a ccw, do it! I'm very envious of your positions.

[Lohman446]

I have tried shopping at 2 local gunsmiths, and I cant tell you how many people wanted to sell me a baby glock. I agree they are great guns, but veery hard to hide in jeans and a tee shirt.

/on a side note I am assuming that you are not allowed to open carry in michigan lohman? I know herer in TN we can carry it on our forehead, and they dont care (they being the law)...but none the less I dont want people to see my pistol.

Open carry is questionable but technically allowed in MI. Heavily frowned on and illegal in some cities. I have a CCW so I'm covered either way. At work, I really don't care if people put two and two together and realize I'm carrying.

One also has to remember that pistols lose velocity (and energy) quicker than most rifle rounds because of bullet design. As was noted you seldom make a pistol shot in a defensive situation past 20 yards. Still, the energy in a pistol at 20 yards sucks in comparison. A 30/30 at 100 yards is still carrying about 1300 ft/lbs of energy. A 7MM out to 650 yards still carries the same.

Personally I buy my shirts a size too large and then hem them up. Good holsters (Kramer offers some, as do others) help. IWB makes jeans a t-shirt with a G26 possible. Still there are times when I want to just toss something into a pocket and go.

[Lohman446]

Here are some neat numbers from Corbon

200 grain hard cast bullet out of a 6" 357 @ 1150FPS = 587 ft lbs of pressure.

440 grain hard cast out of a 500 S+W @ 1500FPS = 2580 foot lbs of pressure

Just interesting numbers, the numbers should be close if one gets away from hard cast (which I have always been told will cause serious lead fouling over 900FPS).

[LegumeOfTerror]

I am very fond of the CZ 2075 RAMI, though they are a bit big for pocket carry.

[punkncat]

Hey bean......you still playing paintball?

[ManInBlack]

I carry a Sig Sauer P230. It's not a pocket gun, but it's plenty easy to carry concealed in the small of the back, even with just a t-shirt on. Plus, it comes in 380 auto which in my opinion is a much better round to carry than 22 or 25. The version they're making now I think is called the P232.

[SSP REAPER]

I would love to be able to carry a pistol of that size and caliber, but that is not a "pocket" sized pistol. I don't like others to know that I have a pistol.
it wouldn't be called a "concealed carry" if anyone else knew :D . That XD9 sub compact is more of a jacket pocket sized pistol.

[LegumeOfTerror]

Hey bean......you still playing paintball?

rarley, but theres a field down the street from my place now so i might have the time to get back into it.

[billybob_81067]

Walther PPK......it's good enough for 007.......


:D

I picked up a Walther P22 here a few weeks ago... It's my inside the house pocket gun for keeping the crazies at bay...

Pretty sweet little gun actually...

[Schmitti]

I'm going to chime in.. and sorry I'm 6 days late to the party.

First you may not like things I have to say... but I'm going to say them so that you don't do a couple of things...

1. Get something that you can't depend on
2. Get something that you aren't going to like
3. Get something that will be unsafe to you and others
4. Carry something in a manner that is unsafe or slow to get to.

Okay... guns I've owned and carried on me:
Springfield 1911 full size in .45 ACP
S&W 66 with 3" barrel in .357/.38
Keltec 9mm
UZI Baby Eagle Compact DAO in.40 S&W

Of the above I carried the revolver and springfield the most because I could depend on them to go bang and I could shoot them consistently with what I felt was fairly good accuracy.

A tiny gun is great.. for a tiny gun. Would I carry a .22 lr pistol... only if I could not carry something bigger. You basically want to carry the largest caliber gun that you can shoot repeatedly.... If you can do so with a .500 S&W and can conceal it on you.. good for you! For most of us mortals though it will be something in a smaller more normal caliber like a 9mm or .38/.357 or a .40 or .45. For a defense gun I (personally) would not go any smaller than those.

There are plenty of guns out there that will fit your need for a small easy to operate gun that will go bang every time you need it to. Kahr arms makes very nice compact guns in .40 S&W, they are pricey though. The S&W revolvers are great off the shelf and you can get them without hammers or the bodyguard model that has a snag free design. The S&W compact cheif's specials are also nice guns. Even Glocks if you can learn to like the trigger (it's much easier to do if you've never shot other guns).

Another thing to consider about a tiny gun.. even though it's tiny doesn't mean it's easy to shoot. I can't hold the little naa mouse guns.. they are just too small for my hands... pretty much the same goes for the beretta .22lr autos. They are cute and will go bang all day, but I wouldn't depend on them unless they were the only thing I could shoot.

I won't tell you what type of gun to get... but don't sell yourself short on a dinky gun. Try as many guns as you can and then make your decision.

If you want a "pocket" gun, then you need to consider something... if it is loose in your pocket can you repeatedly draw the gun with out snagging it and do so in the same way at the same speed every time. It's not like the movies. If the poop goes down and you need to get your gun out, you need to do it quickly. The last place I'd want my gun is loose in my pocket. I never carried a gun in a pocket. Never. It was either in a belt holster (IWB= Inside the waist band) or a shoulder rig... and at worse with the Springfield, tucked in my pants (but even that is dumb).

With the number of holster makers out there today you can find a comfortable IWB holster for just about any gun on the market... Blade-Tec makes some very nice ones out of kydex that have several methods of attachment to your belt http://www.blade-tech.com/Holsters-c-253.html I owned a couple and like them very much.

Another problem with carrying a gun in your pocket is that it could fall out... oops.. how do you explain that to the people behind the register at the gas station... or the nearby patrons at a restaurant? "No really folks I'm licensed to carry." Well you probably won't be for much longer.

Also with pocket carry there is the good chance of the gun imprinting on your pocket. If someone can see the outline of your gun then it's not concealed... and depending on your state, that's either brandishing a firearm or open carry.

So what I'm saying is pocket carry should be your last resort. Get a good holster to hold that gun safely where you can get at it very quickly.

Also, find a good gun range or club near you and see if they offer a Concealed Carry or self defense course... even if it is a classroom only non shooting course, the information you learn will be invaluable (that doesn't mean un-valuable).

Just some of my thoughts that I usually toss out every time I see some one ask about buying a gun (the holster comments are new, only because I've never seen someone ask about a pocket gun before).

Feel free to ask me any questions you might have ... but think about what I said above first. And that goes for anybody.. not just the original poster.

E

[CaliMagFan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4CuHBro1ek&feature=channel_page

dont know if you're still in the market for a sub compact, but that link seems full of good info... that guy, nutnfancy is a top notch reviewer from what i can tell. I dont shoot a lot of guns, but think he does a nice job on all his reviews and info... though he does get a little wordy somtimes.

[Schmitti]

Great link... good info on compact/tiny guns starts around 7 mins. That sig P238 is nice... especially seeing as it is an updated copy of the old COlt pocket gun.

E

[Lohman446]

IIRC there is a current recall on some of the P238s. Which is disappointing considering they essentially copied the Mustang. That being said others have pointed out the concern of going with a SA pocket pistol, especially if your primary is an XD.

[grEnAlEins]

Mann,

Have you considered Smart Carry (http://www.smartcarry.com/) or Thunderwear (http://www.thunderwear.com/)? I hear some people really love these things, however some do not. I just thought I'd throw it out there for ya though.

-grEn

[MANN]

I'm going to chime in.. and sorry I'm 6 days late to the party.

Your not late I have yet to purchase a "everyday carrying pistol". That, and I am waiting on 380 ammo. No point in owning a gun that you have no ammo for.

For myself I am leaning toward the kel tec p3at/ruger lcp. The quality issue is the only thing that somewhat concerns me with them. The lcp is also a somewhat hard pistol to purchase (at least at our 2-3 local gun stores)

With laser sights & a pocket holster I don't think it will print anymore than a cell phone. I have not used a pocket holster yet, but by the looks of them they seem to hold the pistol in a stationary position. It may be a bit slower on drawing, but I would rather be a little slow than to not have one.

I have yet to shoot one, and don't know really how I can until I purchase one(the local gun stores will not let you "try out pistols"). I guess worse case scenario I will put it in the gun safe with some other "cool, but not practice" firearms

[MANN]

Mann,

Have you considered Smart Carry (http://www.smartcarry.com/) or Thunderwear (http://www.thunderwear.com/)? I hear some people really love these things, however some do not. I just thought I'd throw it out there for ya though.

-grEn

Thanks for the suggestion.

I like the theory.....but I tried the inside the waist holsters last week at a gun show, and was not too impressed. It was not that easy to get the pistol out. I also think that they are uncomfortable when you sit down.

on the gun show note. WOW stuff there is wayyyy over priced. I thought it was a place to get a good deal. They were selling heavily used common glocks/smiths/springfields for more than msrp.

[grEnAlEins]

on the gun show note. WOW stuff there is wayyyy over priced. I thought it was a place to get a good deal. They were selling heavily used common glocks/smiths/springfields for more than msrp.
Same with the last show I was at. There are still people with "election pricing" in the gun show crowd. I'd give it another 6 or 8 months before that subsides a bit more. It is getting better though.