The big if....

[punkncat]

Just to play into the fantasy that is SP going away....I am not saying the rumor is true, I am merely playing into a self indulgence of sorts. So let us imagine for just a moment that poof, SP was gone. And poof, no patent infringement issues could/would arise (not going to happen, but play along).

So all of a sudden, all the people who had electronic projects in the works at the time.....all the big and small companies, everyone, could make an eframe again w/o paying a royalty.

Would it even matter? Could paintball be rejuvinated by allowing grass roots companies to develop and produce markers in a free market again?

[Sumthinwicked]

even if sp folds the patents are still the gardners :rolleyes:

[jade_monkey07]

i just want to see the dw aedes :(

[punkncat]

even if sp folds the patents are still the gardners :rolleyes:


BAD!!!! You are not PLAYING ALONG!!!!

:mad:


I send :argh: 's to take your booty.

[Sumthinwicked]

ill send guito to take the rug out from ur foot LOL :rolleyes: ;)

[mpsd]

Yeah, I believe that the Garners may come out of the paintball business but that won't keep them from earning their "so hard earned money" out of their patents. What I see is that they just did some math and got to the point where the royalties represent some very good percentage of their earnings, and then running the whole business maybe isn't worth all the hassle. They can go fishing and travel the world knowing that they will have their paycheck on their bank accounts without having to deal with the manufacturing, distribuing, marketing and administration of the whole company.

Now, going back to your original question, IF that happens (which I doubt), I do believe that either:

- Paintball would have a lot of new releases in the first couple of years, prices would come down and then the market would regulate itself into two, maybe three companies doing 90% or so of the business again (like it is today).
- Someone else (like Dave Youngblood or the Tippmanns) would fill up the patent forms again and we would be in the same place, now blaming someone else.

[georgeyew]

Aren't patents good for only 20 years? How many years are left?

[mpsd]

Aren't patents good for only 20 years? How many years are left?

Over ten left for sure. And the 20 years can be renewed. Remember Coca-Cola.

[snoopay700]

Yeah, I believe that the Garners may come out of the paintball business but that won't keep them from earning their "so hard earned money" out of their patents. What I see is that they just did some math and got to the point where the royalties represent some very good percentage of their earnings, and then running the whole business maybe isn't worth all the hassle. They can go fishing and travel the world knowing that they will have their paycheck on their bank accounts without having to deal with the manufacturing, distribuing, marketing and administration of the whole company.

Now, going back to your original question, IF that happens (which I doubt), I do believe that either:

- Paintball would have a lot of new releases in the first couple of years, prices would come down and then the market would regulate itself into two, maybe three companies doing 90% or so of the business again (like it is today).
- Someone else (like Dave Youngblood or the Tippmanns) would fill up the patent forms again and we would be in the same place, now blaming someone else.
I have to agree with him. I doubt they would be going out of business though.

[fishmishin]

- Paintball would have a lot of new releases in the first couple of years, prices would come down and then the market would regulate itself into two, maybe three companies doing 90% or so of the business again (like it is today).
- Someone else (like Dave Youngblood or the Tippmanns) would fill up the patent forms again and we would be in the same place, now blaming someone else.


You know you are probably right, but I would hope that these companies would have learned something from SP's fail. I doubt it, but it would be nice. I couldn't even imagine what it would do to the marker market. Unfortunately I don't think it will be the last of the Gardners anyway. I know it won't make a difference as far as how many i would have to work on, there is enough of them out to make absolutely any difference with that for the next 4 years.

[Automagsam]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't WDP share ownership with the patent. One of the pneuventure employees had sued sp and won way back when giving him co-ownership of the patent, then wdp bought it off of him allowing their markers to be protected, however they haven't allowed other companies to benefit from the patent...

Is everyone forgetting about WDP or am I missing something?

[mpsd]

[/COLOR]

You know you are probably right, but I would hope that these companies would have learned something from SP's fail. I doubt it, but it would be nice. I couldn't even imagine what it would do to the marker market. Unfortunately I don't think it will be the last of the Gardners anyway. I know it won't make a difference as far as how many i would have to work on, there is enough of them out to make absolutely any difference with that for the next 4 years.

You honestly think they failed? Really? I mean, even if they do come out, they will do it with big, fat, havy pocket, right? Try looking at it under their own, personal perspective. They didn't fail. Not even close...

Just please, don't get me wrong here, ok? I'm not saying that I agree with their politics but just that it worked out for them. Just them.

[punkncat]

So, back to the original question.....

Aside from the FACT that the patents aren't going anywhere, let us PRETEND for a moment that they were GONE. IF that were going to be the case, and anyone and everyone could make E frames, markers, etc. again, could it turn paintball around?

[Lohman446]

No - it would not.

What would more e-frames offer? Would they be cheaper? They are pretty cheap pretty decent markers out there now. Would they be more feature laden? No, the rules set up pretty well are design specs.

The fact is the problem right now has nothing to do with production of markers or cost. The problem that TK, Orr, Youngblood and others fought early on (availability of items to the player) has been replaced. These new problems will be harder to overcome.

FYI - SPs "fail" (assumed) had nothing to do with the pretend boycot by what? 5% of the players. Don't congratulate yourselves too much.

[punkncat]

Thanks for playing along Lohman.

What do you think the current problems are specifically?

[Lohman446]

Thanks for playing along Lohman.

What do you think the current problems are specifically?

Paintball players, organizers, and companies are not longer working together. We are niching ourselves off and not supporting one another.

Stock class players beleive they represent a niche that is supported by a handful of companies that do not matter if the rest fails. We conveniently forget paint that cost $100 a case and was of questionable quality.

Tournament players beleive somehow the sport will support them someday. Not in todays format. Too much is expected for free, and its attempted to be balanced on the back of the other groups.

Rec open players complain that both tournament and stock class players are elitist. Yet some of the negatives of both filter down. I now can plan on watching cheating at rec days, and the elitist attitude.

In the end noone is fostering in the next group of players. Little Johny shows up to play at a "public" day and finds players in full tournament gear playing with full tournament attitude lighting people up. The experienced rec players go off and play by themselves. The stock class players play as hard core to win as the tournament players - they simply are not able to put 15 balls on him in a bunker run. Scenario players just see him as another body at best, and at worst laugh at his gear. What part of the game would make him want to come back?

None of the niches foster in the new player, at least not well. I can remember when I started one of the experienced players shadowed me, showed me the ropes, showed me the tricks. When speedball became the rage many of us when not playing watched and helped instruct each other until we got the tricks down. We have niched ourselves too much, and none of us are doing well at encouraging the four times a year player that the sport needs to grow and prosper. We claim to be doing it in stock class, but we are simply serving our own interests.

[Mongoose]

So, back to the original question.....

Aside from the FACT that the patents aren't going anywhere, let us PRETEND for a moment that they were GONE. IF that were going to be the case, and anyone and everyone could make E frames, markers, etc. again, could it turn paintball around?

I honestly believe the answer is no. Another Company would swoop in and try to pull the same stunts SP has.

But to play along...if SP left and no one replaced them, i could see paintball turning around for the better. When Companies compete on a level playing field the customer always win.
Products get better and cheaper,

Unfortunately you will always have a few companies that cant handle competition.

[Frizzle Fry]

- Someone else (like Dave Youngblood or the Tippmanns) would fill up the patent forms again and we would be in the same place, now blaming someone else.

I honestly think that both Dave and the current owners of Tippmann would be above that... Or at least they would avoid such a clearly suicidal business move, considering the crap that SP has taken for their lies and false patents. Either way, having met with Dave for business reasons in the past, he seems to be the kind of guy who would, if he held such a patent, not use it to chisel money out of the system.

[Lohman446]

I honestly think that both Dave and the current owners of Tippmann would be above that... Or at least they would avoid such a clearly suicidal business move, considering the crap that SP has taken for their lies and false patents. Either way, having met with Dave for business reasons in the past, he seems to be the kind of guy who would, if he held such a patent, not use it to chisel money out of the system.

If you were a major player and the patent became reasonably available you would be an idiot to not grab it. Look at all the trouble having it in the "wrong hands" has caused. Even if you did not use it the same way it has been used wouldn't you sleep a whole lot better knowing you were not at the whim of someone else in regards to enforcing it. Even as a "friendly" bargaining chip between companies what is it worth. It was rumored TK offered to assist on the design of the Shocker SFT for the right to produce electros, and AGD wasn't even a major competitor to SP at the time.

If none of the major players grab it up, if its available, wouldn't it be the ideal time for a consortium to snag it up to share?

/ doubt its available reasonably

[Shirow]

Paintball players, organizers, and companies are not longer working together. We are niching ourselves off and not supporting one another.

Stock class players beleive they represent a niche that is supported by a handful of companies that do not matter if the rest fails. We conveniently forget paint that cost $100 a case and was of questionable quality.

Tournament players beleive somehow the sport will support them someday. Not in todays format. Too much is expected for free, and its attempted to be balanced on the back of the other groups.

Rec open players complain that both tournament and stock class players are elitist. Yet some of the negatives of both filter down. I now can plan on watching cheating at rec days, and the elitist attitude.

In the end noone is fostering in the next group of players. Little Johny shows up to play at a "public" day and finds players in full tournament gear playing with full tournament attitude lighting people up. The experienced rec players go off and play by themselves. The stock class players play as hard core to win as the tournament players - they simply are not able to put 15 balls on him in a bunker run. Scenario players just see him as another body at best, and at worst laugh at his gear. What part of the game would make him want to come back?

None of the niches foster in the new player, at least not well. I can remember when I started one of the experienced players shadowed me, showed me the ropes, showed me the tricks. When speedball became the rage many of us when not playing watched and helped instruct each other until we got the tricks down. We have niched ourselves too much, and none of us are doing well at encouraging the four times a year player that the sport needs to grow and prosper. We claim to be doing it in stock class, but we are simply serving our own interests.

Completely agree with all of this. The elitism in paintball is ridiculous. Maybe it's what happens when you put a 'gun' in a guys hands but there's nothing cool about 'killing 3 noobs'.

When I first started playing paintball, I had an awesome time and it was thanks to other people helping me out.

[snoopay700]

Paintball players, organizers, and companies are not longer working together. We are niching ourselves off and not supporting one another.

Stock class players beleive they represent a niche that is supported by a handful of companies that do not matter if the rest fails. We conveniently forget paint that cost $100 a case and was of questionable quality.

Tournament players beleive somehow the sport will support them someday. Not in todays format. Too much is expected for free, and its attempted to be balanced on the back of the other groups.

Rec open players complain that both tournament and stock class players are elitist. Yet some of the negatives of both filter down. I now can plan on watching cheating at rec days, and the elitist attitude.

In the end noone is fostering in the next group of players. Little Johny shows up to play at a "public" day and finds players in full tournament gear playing with full tournament attitude lighting people up. The experienced rec players go off and play by themselves. The stock class players play as hard core to win as the tournament players - they simply are not able to put 15 balls on him in a bunker run. Scenario players just see him as another body at best, and at worst laugh at his gear. What part of the game would make him want to come back?

None of the niches foster in the new player, at least not well. I can remember when I started one of the experienced players shadowed me, showed me the ropes, showed me the tricks. When speedball became the rage many of us when not playing watched and helped instruct each other until we got the tricks down. We have niched ourselves too much, and none of us are doing well at encouraging the four times a year player that the sport needs to grow and prosper. We claim to be doing it in stock class, but we are simply serving our own interests.
That's actually a good assessment of where we are. I see people at the field that have been playing for years and years and they bring new people, then when they get out on the field they simply let them off on their own. When it comes down to new players i've seen very few at the field try to help them out, and honestly even when i've tried helping people out in the past i have occasionally ended up losing them if i was moving in front of them because i got too absorbed into the game and moving (heck i've even lost my friends that started playing with me....i really am guilty of this). It sucks, but there really isn't a solution to this problem other than as many people as possible giving up a game or two, maybe more, to try to show someone the ropes. But even then, it's a very small percentage trying to remedy this problem.

[Shirow]

That's actually a good assessment of where we are. I see people at the field that have been playing for years and years and they bring new people, then when they get out on the field they simply let them off on their own. When it comes down to new players i've seen very few at the field try to help them out, and honestly even when i've tried helping people out in the past i have occasionally ended up losing them if i was moving in front of them because i got too absorbed into the game and moving (heck i've even lost my friends that started playing with me....i really am guilty of this). It sucks, but there really isn't a solution to this problem other than as many people as possible giving up a game or two, maybe more, to try to show someone the ropes. But even then, it's a very small percentage trying to remedy this problem.

It is very difficult to just pick up a new player and put them under your wing. Paintball (Especially woodsball) is not always that kind of game.

That being said.. I think if you bring a friend or two with you, it's very easy to at least show them the ropes. What I usually do when I bring new people is give them one of my radios and a headset to use - then if we get split up I can still stop them feeling abandoned and we can work on strategies.

[snoopay700]

It is very difficult to just pick up a new player and put them under your wing. Paintball (Especially woodsball) is not always that kind of game.

That being said.. I think if you bring a friend or two with you, it's very easy to at least show them the ropes. What I usually do when I bring new people is give them one of my radios and a headset to use - then if we get split up I can still stop them feeling abandoned and we can work on strategies.
Yeah, it's a lot easier with people you know, but it's still hard to take people under your wing. Like i said, i've done it, and when i see someone new i do it if i'm playing, but its definitely something i have to work on, especially since i'm bringing my girlfriend along sometime soon probably, so i won't be playing stock class then because otherwise i would probably go off on my own.

But that radio thing is a good idea, i'll have to try that.

[Shirow]

Yeah, it's a lot easier with people you know, but it's still hard to take people under your wing. Like i said, i've done it, and when i see someone new i do it if i'm playing, but its definitely something i have to work on, especially since i'm bringing my girlfriend along sometime soon probably, so i won't be playing stock class then because otherwise i would probably go off on my own.

But that radio thing is a good idea, i'll have to try that.

I just picked up a couple of Midland radios from Gander Mtn, was $50 for both radios, a charger and two boom mics. They fit fine under a paintball mask and work pretty good.

It's actually pretty nice and it's let me pull off some decent strats, even with new players. Having a radio makes a big difference. It also helps when people get nervous if they get separated since you can still talk to them.

[Automagsam]

Does anyone have any input on the whole WDP thing. See my post in this thread if you don't know what I mean.

[Ando]

Your partly right about WDP. WDP went to court but the case was thrown out cause no paperwork to give full ownership of the patent was done when pneuventure went under. Some how some way WDP purchased the other half and gave SP a big middle finger.

I actually own one of those pneuventure made shockers. Anno is in mint condition and still works. :D

It's stored in a case in the basement. Haven't pulled it out in 2-4 years, might have to replace a O-ring or 2 I'm sure but it work the last time I played with it. I'll get a pic of it here in the day or 2.

Anyways, I've never read anything about WDP trying to keep the little man down. That was all SP's doing, same with the royalties.

[Automagsam]

Your partly right about WDP. WDP went to court but the case was thrown out cause no paperwork to give full ownership of the patent was done when pneuventure went under. Some how some way WDP purchased the other half and gave SP a big middle finger.

I actually own one of those pneuventure made shockers. Anno is in mint condition and still works. :D

It's stored in a case in the basement. Haven't pulled it out in 2-4 years, might have to replace a O-ring or 2 I'm sure but it work the last time I played with it. I'll get a pic of it here in the day or 2.

Anyways, I've never read anything about WDP trying to keep the little man down. That was all SP's doing, same with the royalties.

Well I read that the reason they didn't get full ownership was not because paperwork was lost but rather that the engineer from pneuventure never actually signed the contract, so he retained partial ownership, then WDP bought those rights from him.

Supposedly the royalties are split three ways, some go to WDP some go to SP and then there is a third company which I can't recall the name of.

[warbeak2099]

Would it even matter? Could paintball be rejuvinated by allowing grass roots companies to develop and produce markers in a free market again?

Absolutely. The power vacuum that'd be created would allow for a crap load of added choices for consumers. Choices are good. You'd see a lot of people come out of the woodwork and that would for sure rejuvenate the industry. You also wouldn't have tourney circuits dying because one giant company owns them and no one else wants to get involved with those shenanigans.