You know what would be the easiest way to save this sport?

[halB]

We got a problem. Paintball isn't as fun anymore. At least, this is the opinion I'm getting from a lot of the older players.

The main problem? It is too expensive to be shooting 20 balls per second, and it is too painful to be shot by 20 balls a second. This isn't a sport with "guns" anymore, this is a sport with hoses.

So, what's the easiest solution, that each gun could be fixed for around 100 dollars?

Let's go back to single trigger frames.

Double trigger frames first came about because it was difficult to pull mech triggers. Now they're used to fan like crazy. Hell, people don't even hold or treat this thing like a "gun" anymore.

With a single trigger frame, at the very minimum for electronics, this would level the playing field, slow down the game a bit, and bring back fun.

Thoughts?

[om3n]

We got a problem. Paintball isn't as fun anymore. At least, this is the opinion I'm getting from a lot of the older players.

The main problem? It is too expensive to be shooting 20 balls per second, and it is too painful to be shot by 20 balls a second. This isn't a sport with "guns" anymore, this is a sport with hoses.

So, what's the easiest solution, that each gun could be fixed for around 100 dollars?

Let's go back to single trigger frames.

Double trigger frames first came about because it was difficult to pull mech triggers. Now they're used to fan like crazy. Hell, people don't even hold or treat this thing like a "gun" anymore.

With a single trigger frame, at the very minimum for electronics, this would level the playing field, slow down the game a bit, and bring back fun.

Thoughts?


I would agree with you but....



I just built an e-mag :p

[Newt]

Mmf. Easier said than done. Once you go down a road, regrettable or otherwise, it's not easy to go back.

They're shooting 20bps because the technique has been evolved and developed. It's takes 14 bps to hit a guy now that they've figured out to slide out and back in, and only expose half a mask for half a second.

As for paintball not treating the equipment like guns, it's because they're not. Firearms developed a different way and achieved a level of ergonomics and accuracy. Paintball markers have a hopper, a tank, and virtually zero recoil. The ergonomics just work differently.

For this to work, you'd have to get the major tourneys on board and get a completely different set of rules.

[halB]

How bout we first explore the positives of this, before we poo poo all over it?

[paullus99]

Once the cat is out of the bag, there isn't any going back. Of course, you see a rise in pump & mech players, both for the experience & of course the economics of it as well. The next couple of years will be interesting - to see how the game evolves in the current climate and whether or not it can capture the imagination of a new generation of players.

We'll just have to wait and see.

[SSP REAPER]

I would agree with you but....



I just built an e-mag :p
I just built an Xmag :D Isn't hyper Hybrid or just Hybrid fun? (supposing you have Xmod for the "hyper") I will post up pics of the build process soon!

[om3n]

honestly though I do agree with you. I've used mech guns for 10 years- I used to play almost exclusively with other guys who have mechs, and as soon as the first one of us went electro we all went electro (well except for me... I just went electro about 2 weeks ago). The guys with electros have so much of an advantage over similarly skilled guys with mechs that it's not fun... when everyone has unlimited ammo :)

One rule that people could consider is playing with this:still allow ridiculously fast guns, but instead of being allowed to carry all the friggin paint you want, make it so you can only take one hopper's worth per game. That would be interesting and I think it would satisfy your argument and the need to shoot fast. People would just be more conservative, i.e. shoot fast alot less.


EDIT

and to the guy above me- I am getting my gun back on Saturday from being flashed to x-mod. I CAN'T WAAAAAAAIT :dance: :dance: :D

[vf-xx]

I would agree with you but....



I just built an e-mag :p

I have a single finger Emag trigger for you!!!

See, problem solved.

[BigEvil]

Make everyone use 12v Revies... end of ROF problems :D

[Mongoose]

Make everyone use 12v Revies... end of ROF problems :D

now thats the way to go.....even with a single trigger the aggs will just set the marker on full auto. but if you restrict the paint going in...well then it doesn't matter what ramp or board they wanna use :D

[kcombs9]

honestly though I do agree with you. I've used mech guns for 10 years- I used to play almost exclusively with other guys who have mechs, and as soon as the first one of us went electro we all went electro (well except for me... I just went electro about 2 weeks ago). The guys with electros have so much of an advantage over similarly skilled guys with mechs that it's not fun... when everyone has unlimited ammo :)

One rule that people could consider is playing with this:still allow ridiculously fast guns, but instead of being allowed to carry all the friggin paint you want, make it so you can only take one hopper's worth per game. That would be interesting and I think it would satisfy your argument and the need to shoot fast. People would just be more conservative, i.e. shoot fast alot less.


EDIT

and to the guy above me- I am getting my gun back on Saturday from being flashed to x-mod. I CAN'T WAAAAAAAIT :dance: :dance: :D

I agree, take less paint per game, I take 2 pods with me but rarely use one in a game. And I have a Emag too...

[om3n]

now thats the way to go.....even with a single trigger the aggs will just set the marker on full auto. but if you restrict the paint going in...well then it doesn't matter what ramp or board they wanna use :D


Did anyone read my post? what about limiting paint in general?

One possibility is making it so everyone can only use ONE loader full of paint per game- that way people could shoot fast if they wanted too, but there would be alot of reasons not to shoot fast as well :p People would probably play more aggressively and they would definitely be more conservative on paint, and I think this could satisfy both the need to shoot fast and the ridiculous amount of paint flying through the air problem all at once.

[BigEvil]

Did anyone read my post? what about limiting paint in general?

One possibility is making it so everyone can only use ONE loader full of paint per game- that way people could shoot fast if they wanted too, but there would be alot of reasons not to shoot fast as well :p People would probably play more aggressively and they would definitely be more conservative on paint, and I think this could satisfy both the need to shoot fast and the ridiculous amount of paint flying through the air problem all at once.


A lot of people don't like to play like that. It also doesnt stop someone from getting lit up.

[om3n]

A lot of people don't like to play like that. It also doesnt stop someone from getting lit up.


Maybe, but the op is claiming he doesn't like how alot of people like to play. I do believe what I have suggested is a reasonable solution to that problem- whether it can be implemented or not or whether the majority of paintball players will like it though is another issue, and your probably right.

I do personally like it occasionally- when I host games at my place, we do often play games where everyone can only use 50 rounds for the whole game. It's actually alot of fun, and the game becomes more about skill than hosing people. Also, guys with electros turn their guns to semi and shoot alot slower and alot less often :p

[snoopay700]

honestly though I do agree with you. I've used mech guns for 10 years- I used to play almost exclusively with other guys who have mechs, and as soon as the first one of us went electro we all went electro (well except for me... I just went electro about 2 weeks ago). The guys with electros have so much of an advantage over similarly skilled guys with mechs that it's not fun... when everyone has unlimited ammo :)

That's when you get more skilled and they get left behind. :D

Honestly though, we've already headed down the slippery slope, and it's too steep to go back. I actually like this because it helps me grow in skill, especially since i've started playing stock class, while everyone else relies on firepower. That being said i don't mind where the sport is at all that much.

[Abizdafuzz]

Make everyone use 12v Revies... end of ROF problems :D

I'd love that if...they still made high quality Revies.

[Toll]

"The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for
authority, they show disrespect to their elders.... They no longer
rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents,
chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their
legs, and are tyrants over their teachers"

:rolleyes:

[om3n]

"The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for
authority, they show disrespect to their elders.... They no longer
rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents,
chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their
legs, and are tyrants over their teachers"

:rolleyes:


While this is true... what does this have to do with this topic? I really am trying to find the connection

[Ravenneon]

Maybe, but the op is claiming he doesn't like how alot of people like to play. I do believe what I have suggested is a reasonable solution to that problem- whether it can be implemented or not or whether the majority of paintball players will like it though is another issue, and your probably right.

I do personally like it occasionally- when I host games at my place, we do often play games where everyone can only use 50 rounds for the whole game. It's actually alot of fun, and the game becomes more about skill than hosing people. Also, guys with electros turn their guns to semi and shoot alot slower and alot less often :p


But see now...the problem is that most fields, the ones that make money on their paint, depend on these kids with their egos shooting 3 cases of paint an hour. Not saying that its right but its also help with their businesses. Thats why you are seeing more and more fields having stock class only days or mech gun only days to help this issue.

Personally I could care less. The only thing that I dislike is overshooting someone. It doesn't have to take 12balls to various parts of my body to eliminate me. you dont have to have limited paint and a non electro marker to accomplish this. Granted it would make it easier. The person just has to show a little restraint when ripping a string. Instead of 9 balls throw 3 at them instead. if you got a good shot and know ur gonna hit them then just send 1 ball, most people are gonna know the accuracy of their markers. Just my opinion.

[Spazmok]

Maybe, but the op is claiming he doesn't like how alot of people like to play. I do believe what I have suggested is a reasonable solution to that problem- whether it can be implemented or not or whether the majority of paintball players will like it though is another issue, and your probably right.

I do personally like it occasionally- when I host games at my place, we do often play games where everyone can only use 50 rounds for the whole game. It's actually alot of fun, and the game becomes more about skill than hosing people. Also, guys with electros turn their guns to semi and shoot alot slower and alot less often :p


yeah at my field we often convince the young speedballers to try some limited ammo games. everyone gets three 10 round tubes. its pretty funny to see a youngin' trying to 'quickly' change out one tube for another on an ego. still is just as fun to go out with only a hoppers worth, no pods, especially because even when I have pods it's rare that I need to reload in a game. imo variety in games keeps this sport fun. also simulated night games (indoor speedball with all the lights off, near pitch black!) :ninja:

[om3n]

A lot of people don't like to play like that. It also doesnt stop someone from getting lit up.


I'd also like to mention this:

Last time I played, it was the first time I was able to get out with my e-mag. Granted it was on mech because my battery was dead, but it was the FIRST time I played with it. There was a party of about 5 young guys on the other team, all renting tippmanns. We were playing on a speedball field. They also had two guys on their team with ego's and a couple other electros- it was 10 on 10.

At the beginning of the game I sprinted for the left snake, but I got hit on my way there. The ref checked me while I was at the beginning of the snake and he called me out. I raised my gun in the air so that it was point straight up my arm's length out of the snake, and my gun got hit twice with nasty thick green paint. I told the ref to tell those kids to stop shooting, but they didn't. I KID YOU NOT, my new e-mag, got shot another 5 or six times with different colors of paint IN THE SIDE from being help up in the air, gesturing that I was out. I got shot 2 times WALKING out of that game. Guess what, those kids were using mech tippmanns, and I got lit up anyways over the course of about 10 seconds. The ref ended up kicking 2 of those kids out after that game.

I agree with the post above me- I think that more control is what will really fix rec games, not necessarily limiting peoples ammo and equipment...

But since people won't ever have self control, I still think ammo limits are the most viable option ;)

[Newt]

Good points there, om3n. It really isn't the equipment that makes a player (good or bad).

This sport is honor based, even in the very highest levels. The only way to "clean it out" will be to change human nature or make reffing more fun.

[SCpoloRicker]

"The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for
authority, they show disrespect to their elders.... They no longer
rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents,
chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their
legs, and are tyrants over their teachers"

Quick Change 12 grams are ruining teh sport!!

/love that quote


While this is true... what does this have to do with this topic? I really am trying to find the connection

Er, pretty much everything.

[kwood]

As for paintball not treating the equipment like guns, it's because they're not. Firearms developed a different way and achieved a level of ergonomics and accuracy. Paintball markers have a hopper, a tank, and virtually zero recoil. The ergonomics just work differently.


i dont think he was talking about the physics of how a real gun shoots compared to how a paintball marker shoots
i think he is talking about responsibility and safety
i am surprised every time when i go to a field when kids will just be shooting off rounds just for fun in the staging areas where people arent wearing masks
i usually get in there face about it too because someone is going to end up with a serious injury with stupidity like that

with real guns, you never point the barrel at anyone even if its not loaded, its just a good practice
i think that should apply to paintball guns to
i dont think the barrel should ever be pointed at someone, unless in a game because you never know if pressure is still in the reg or not

[Old School 626]

We got a problem. Paintball isn't as fun anymore. At least, this is the opinion I'm getting from a lot of the older players.

The main problem? It is too expensive to be shooting 20 balls per second, and it is too painful to be shot by 20 balls a second. This isn't a sport with "guns" anymore, this is a sport with hoses.

So, what's the easiest solution, that each gun could be fixed for around 100 dollars?

Let's go back to single trigger frames.

Double trigger frames first came about because it was difficult to pull mech triggers. Now they're used to fan like crazy. Hell, people don't even hold or treat this thing like a "gun" anymore.

With a single trigger frame, at the very minimum for electronics, this would level the playing field, slow down the game a bit, and bring back fun.

Thoughts?

Hal, you're almost 20 years late on this one. The same "issue" is what made me take a break back in 93' until almost '05. The "trigger tugging" competition that the game had become just was not fun. I played a lot of stock class and pump instead and then none at all. Today, I just like to play with friends or like minded people like AO.

[Danimal82]

I honestly think the best way to play paintball is with a private group. My family and friends get together several times a year to play. Arguments are rare and only one guy is notorious for overshooting. I usually gun for him first. :) It seems like every year we add a couple people to the ritual. Its much easier to introduce a new player to the fun when they don't have to worry about someone hosing them down in the first 5 minutes. You always remember that insane 50 yard goggle shot through heavy woods, or the "golden bb" that somehow wrapped around the bunker.

[lil'Greg]

we dont generally get these sort of problems here (Australia) due to the simple fact that paintball markers are considered firearms here. Which for us means we have to obtain a weapons licence and sit firearms safety courses. The amount of hassle we have to go to just to allowed to legally own a paintball marker usually weeds out all of the hot heads.

from what you have all said its not the equipments fault that you get overshot. Do you blame the firearm in a Homicide or do you blame the person? what you need to stop this is a cultural change, people attidudes is what needs to be addressed here, not the markers themselves.

all i am saying is its easy to blame an inanimate object as it cant fight back, trying to change the way some one thinks in this day and age....... GOOD LUCK

[drg]

Pump. "Problem" solved.

[druid]

There was a time....way back when the 68 Magnum was old and the Autococker still new....when we said the same thing.

and we were ignored.

We fight to this day...."bps isn't a tactic"

and we are still ignored.

We hear people whine that [as walk-ons] "the pump and pistol guys are eliminated too quickly because they have no 'fight' one ball at a time"

...and we ignore them.

The REAL reason paintball isn't fun anymore is because no one treats it as a game. It's "all about the win" and at "whatever the cost."

Now add cheating into the mix.

[vf-xx]

"Conform. Consume. Obey."

[drg]

However, I will say that I do agree with the OP that single trigger could be a good method of ROF control. I'm actually kind of surprised that it has yet to be used as such.

[snoopay700]

There was a time....way back when the 68 Magnum was old and the Autococker still new....when we said the same thing.

and we were ignored.

We fight to this day...."bps isn't a tactic"

and we are still ignored.

We hear people whine that [as walk-ons] "the pump and pistol guys are eliminated too quickly because they have no 'fight' one ball at a time"

...and we ignore them.

The REAL reason paintball isn't fun anymore is because no one treats it as a game. It's "all about the win" and at "whatever the cost."

Now add cheating into the mix.
Exactly, nothing will change, that's why you need to find a field that's good for recball. Luckily the field i play at is a great field with great people.

[BiNumber3]

That's the mindset of most "sportsman" tho, win at all costs, even if it's by beating down someone clearly weaker than you in one way or another, and if theyre not weaker, that's when many resort to foul play, you find this in any sport, professional or not.
And I believe people are willing to "bully" (with bps) or cheat mainly because:
1. their peers/friends acknowledge and promote it
2. or they don't care because they see it as playing with strangers and see no need to play fair with strangers

or not, who knows, I can't really put myself in their shoes because the only gun I've had that shot over 15bps with 1 pull i sold off before even putting paint in it...

[WenULiVeUdiE]

Sports and communities evolve and change. That's where part of the sport is at, speed. That part doesn't even include the major tournament series...

It sounds like you are just playing with the wrong group of people. There are plenty of other options...

[druid]

The Pennsylvania Game Commission has an EXCELLENT definition of "Sport".......

Sportsmen
Policing
Our
Ranks
Together

If everyone followed it, we'd ALL be better off........ :headbang:

[Reiner]

we dont generally get these sort of problems here (Australia) due to the simple fact that paintball markers are considered firearms here. Which for us means we have to obtain a weapons licence and sit firearms safety courses. The amount of hassle we have to go to just to allowed to legally own a paintball marker usually weeds out all of the hot heads.

from what you have all said its not the equipments fault that you get overshot. Do you blame the firearm in a Homicide or do you blame the person? what you need to stop this is a cultural change, people attidudes is what needs to be addressed here, not the markers themselves.

all i am saying is its easy to blame an inanimate object as it cant fight back, trying to change the way some one thinks in this day and age....... GOOD LUCK
The reason you don't have many of these kind of problems is your paint prices. US fields didn't have these problems either when they were charging $10/100 paintballs. Fields in North America today that are charging close to these prices, still don't have these kinds of problems. It's not the equipment. It's providing the paintballs to feed the equipment at ultra low prices that is the enabler. But even the players that understand that, aren't usually ready to agree to higher prices to solve the problem. :)

[druid]

Missed this one...dunno how though.....



we dont generally get these sort of problems here (Australia) due to the simple fact that paintball markers are considered firearms here. Which for us means we have to obtain a weapons licence and sit firearms safety courses. The amount of hassle we have to go to just to allowed to legally own a paintball marker usually weeds out all of the hot heads.

from what you have all said its not the equipments fault that you get overshot. Do you blame the firearm in a Homicide or do you blame the person? what you need to stop this is a cultural change, people attidudes is what needs to be addressed here, not the markers themselves.

all i am saying is its easy to blame an inanimate object as it cant fight back, trying to change the way some one thinks in this day and age....... GOOD LUCK


You can't legislate someone from not being a butt-wipe. Stabbing someone to death is just as illegal as shooting them with a firearm or beating them to death with a 9 iron.

Sociopathic behavior is just that...and it's difficult to distinguish them from the honest player - when you have companies that put out boards to do insane speeds for only a few bucks.
No mater what the field rules were...or are..."cheater boards" became the norm that you see today. People [originally] got them because they were lazy...and dishonest [in terms of fair play] and they've been screwing with "blue tooth" technology as of the past few years, to try and get accomplice spectators to manipulate players boards by air waves.

Not only that, North America doesn't [nor should it] regulate a paintball marker as a firearm because it simply isn't one. Even our own ATF, which is the biggest goose-stepping agency we have, doesn't want any part of it because it isn't a firearm.

[crazyjoe12]

dont have much to say but i agree go back to revvies. sure i have a halo but i rarely use it, i dont need to shoot that fast; i much rather use a revy, its lighter and around 12 bps is more than fast enough, even on my electro's.i guess i just prefer it more. heh :shooting:

[rawbutter]

"The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for
authority, they show disrespect to their elders.... They no longer
rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents,
chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their
legs, and are tyrants over their teachers"

:rolleyes:

Way to pull out the Socrates quote. Kids never change, do they? Sure, they grow up and learn some manners, only to be replaced with younger kids who are just the same.


from what you have all said its not the equipments fault that you get overshot. Do you blame the firearm in a Homicide or do you blame the person? what you need to stop this is a cultural change, people attidudes is what needs to be addressed here, not the markers themselves.

Too true.

I think all this boils down to personal responsibility. If you see someone overshooting, YOU need to do something about it. We don't need to change the rules or the guns. We just need to have some balls (no pun intended) to stand up for what's fair and right. We are responsible adults, after all.

The last time I played at a public game, I saw a few instances of cheating, and... I'm sorry to say, I didn't talk to the ref about it because I figured I would never be back to that place again. But if that was my home field, I would have been all over the ref until something happened. When someone comes out to play on my private field for the first time, the rules get laid out. If the person overshoots or plays outside the area, we talk to them about it. If they do it again, we talk to them again until they get it right.

We can't change the entire sport. Even if all of us here agreed on what to do, we have no authority to change tournament rules or force companies to alter their designs. But we can each of us try to change one player's attitude and behavior. That's the only way we'll make a difference in the long run.

[XM15]

The dominace of the airball/speedball format combined with electros is one of the biggest problems. It was pushed back in the late 90's to make the sport more spectator friendly in hopes of TV picking it up. The format is all about more action which means more shooting and up close and personal bunkering. Back in the days of mech guns its wasn't bad but now it is a meat grinder. Some guy bunkers a kid ramping that kid is going to take multiple hits from 2ft or less. What new player is going to find that fun and keep playing?

[Lohman446]

Yeh, I wish we had a players group that would make a no force fed loader rule....


/oh wait... that didn't work

[Konigballer]

This is great! I played indoor speedball all day yesterday with my RT valved Minimag yesterday, and I did the following:

A. used a single trigger benchy.

B. used a Revy.

C. played hopperball the entire day, because I was to lazy to cary my pod pack.

I must be 'the man'! :clap:

this was also added to the fact that I had the only mag there and no-one, not even the refs, knew what it was. These little speedballers asked me how old it was before a game and I pointed at each of them and said 'It's older than you, you, you, and you.' :)

[Ando]

These little speedballers asked me how old it was before a game and I pointed at each of them and said 'It's older than you, you, you, and you.' :)
I love doing that and the majority want to use it too. I have a basic classic that I loan out to those that want to try it out on the firld and my other guns I'll only allow them to use it in the crono area. I think I've converted one of the kids to a mag. I told him to come here and have a look at the Mag Picture thread to get a better idea of what he can create.

[SSP-SheiK]

We got a problem. Paintball isn't as fun anymore. At least, this is the opinion I'm getting from a lot of the older players.

The main problem? It is too expensive to be shooting 20 balls per second, and it is too painful to be shot by 20 balls a second. This isn't a sport with "guns" anymore, this is a sport with hoses.

So, what's the easiest solution, that each gun could be fixed for around 100 dollars?

Let's go back to single trigger frames.

Double trigger frames first came about because it was difficult to pull mech triggers. Now they're used to fan like crazy. Hell, people don't even hold or treat this thing like a "gun" anymore.

With a single trigger frame, at the very minimum for electronics, this would level the playing field, slow down the game a bit, and bring back fun.

Thoughts?

Im not quite sure what everyones problem is... you dont HAVE to shoot 20bps, and you usually can choose who you play with top avoid playing with people that wont hesitate to throw 8-10 extra at you while your standing up to get out. i have a great time getting little AGG kids out with my pump. getting bonus balled absolutely sucks. but you know, thats an aspect of the sport that has evovled with some of the sports gametypes. no one is telling you to go waste 2 cases in a day. YOU chose how to play. i still have a blast and i can tell you many many people do too. i dont intend this to be mean but, just because your not having fun doesnt mean everyone else should have to change how they play.

just my opinion

[druid]

Im not quite sure what everyones problem is... you dont HAVE to shoot 20bps, and you usually can choose who you play with top avoid playing with people that wont hesitate to throw 8-10 extra at you while your standing up to get out. i have a great time getting little AGG kids out with my pump. getting bonus balled absolutely sucks. but you know, thats an aspect of the sport that has evovled with some of the sports gametypes. no one is telling you to go waste 2 cases in a day. YOU chose how to play. i still have a blast and i can tell you many many people do too. i dont intend this to be mean but, just because your not having fun doesnt mean everyone else should have to change how they play.

just my opinion

It's not just yours....many hold that same opinion.

In response to Konig and Ando....yeah, I love that too - except it happens a lot more when I take the 68 Magnum out...you should see the agglett looks at THAT marker....lmao.

Agglett: "Did you make that out of bathroom piping?"
me: "uh...no"
A: "what is that?"
me: "_________" [answer]
A: "How old is it?"
me: "older than this field we're playing"
A: "must not be too accurate then"

.....40 mins later......

Agglett: "Dude! You were like 150 feet away and one-balled me!!!111oneoneone"
me: "Uh huh...bps ain't everything now is it?"
A: ::grumbles"" as he walks away........

I SO love that...lol

[SSP-SheiK]

It's not just yours....many hold that same opinion.


oh, i know... i just hadnt seen anyone voice it yet... ;)


and if someone did, my apologies, i didnt feel like reading every post :D

[maniacmechanic]

well do this : Play outlaw , been playing that way since I been playing , basicly you do pick who you play with and you learn how they play , those that go with higher rof markers turn into targets at our place
Example , thier are 2 guys that when they started they were shooting Mech Tippmans , they went through the SP thing ( shockers & nerves I think ) now they both shoot uncapped Egos & you know what , even at 28 bps they still can't hit me when I shoot them in the back :ninja:

[halB]

A couple of points that need correcting.

When I was talking about holding it more like a gun, I literally meant how you hold it. Nowadays we put almost all of the weight on the reg, or foregrip, and we very lightly grasp the actual handle or grip with our right hand. I would like for more of the weight to be supported by the right hand. (Please ignore shooting out of the left side of the bunker for a moment.) You simply cannot hold the gun well if you are using two fingers to fan the trigger. With a single trigger frame, you can actually hold the marker like a gun. And since the gun, in its course of invention, needed ergonomics, I say we should adopt theirs.

I was also saying this should be done for tournies, not recball. You simply could not mandate a 100 dollar upgrade to play recball. The fields would go bankrupt. But, tournies easily could. If we change the top, the bottom will fall into line.

[dre1919]

I agree that paintball isn't as much fun as it used to be. When I began playing, we used to play at a really nice field down by this Air Force base. My friends and I were in college and we played woodsball games with semi's and a few pumps. 500 rounds would last for a long time because there was more stalking and hiding...more tactics. Those were great days, but like all things evolution set in. Soon enough we got interested in the bigger, better, faster, stronger aspect and starting playing tournament paintball. From there, it was jerseys and speedball wear instead of camo, faster and more technologically superior guns and much, much less stalking. Woodsball was suddenly not cool anymore, and the game changed into speedball / hyperball / sup' air, etc.

Now, of course one can go back into the world of strict woodsball, or playing pump, etc. to try and rekindle that magic or control cost. However, it's interesting the mentality and ego that sets in. You start to go out to fields and you're playing with an "ancient" gun shooting very few balls per second and the kiddies are playing with the latest and greatest. Those not in the know think those guys are the "good" players and look at those who come out for simpler games as the podunk newbs or poorboy players. Of course, your play on the field is going to prove them wrong (given you navigate through the enormous wave of spray and pray). But, you still crave that feeling of being seen as a "good player". It's just natural that people who have seniority and experience in their sport want to be recognized as such. Plus, you crave performance out of your equipment and if you know there is better out there (better meaning more accurate, faster ROF if you want it, etc.) than it's tough to go old school without second thoughts.

The point I'm making here is, once the evolution happens it's tough to go back for whatever the reason. I've tried. I feel odd being one of the most experienced players on a field at a given day yet sporting ancient equipment or lacking the funds to play as long as I like. It shouldn't be that way but it is. The fact is, the game has changed into a sport of the richer kids (or the kids with parents who shell out the cash for cases of paint) and the self-sufficient are less involved. Most of my friends, and all of my team, rarely play anymore. They have families, mortgages, bills, etc. that demand the money they would have spent on paintball. Sure, it's nice in theory to say "We'll all start playing pump or woodsball to save money and just get out and PLAY" but that's easier said than done. Once you've had the taste of playing at a more intense level, faster pace or with technologically superior equipment it's tough to rationalize going back. It's like racing in a league using Porsche road racing cars and then going down and racing in a league using 70's VW Beetles. You can do it, but you just feel wierd.

I don't think limiting guns to single trigger frames would help much as the game has just changed from where it used to be. Everyone wants that feeling they used to have but no matter how much you adjust your equipment it's not going to be there. Paintball is a different animal than it was in 1997 or whatever and you have to either find ways to enjoy it the way it is now or find ways to suspend time and play it on your own, with friends on your own land or something, and stop paying attention to the mainstream. For me, anytime I go out to the fields I only take my hopper full of paint. That's it. It forces me to move more, shoot less. Plus, if I run out of paint, I just go out and wait for the next game. I get to play virtually all day on what would have lasted me three or four games in my tournament days. It's an adjustment, but one I was glad to make.

-dre

[Reiner]

I agree that paintball isn't as much fun as it used to be. When I began playing, we used to play at a really nice field down by this Air Force base. My friends and I were in college and we played woodsball games with semi's and a few pumps. 500 rounds would last for a long time because there was more stalking and hiding...more tactics. Those were great days, but like all things evolution set in. Soon enough we got interested in the bigger, better, faster, stronger aspect and starting playing tournament paintball. From there, it was jerseys and speedball wear instead of camo, faster and more technologically superior guns and much, much less stalking. Woodsball was suddenly not cool anymore, and the game changed into speedball / hyperball / sup' air, etc.

Now, of course one can go back into the world of strict woodsball, or playing pump, etc. to try and rekindle that magic or control cost. However, it's interesting the mentality and ego that sets in. You start to go out to fields and you're playing with an "ancient" gun shooting very few balls per second and the kiddies are playing with the latest and greatest. Those not in the know think those guys are the "good" players and look at those who come out for simpler games as the podunk newbs or poorboy players. Of course, your play on the field is going to prove them wrong (given you navigate through the enormous wave of spray and pray). But, you still crave that feeling of being seen as a "good player". It's just natural that people who have seniority and experience in their sport want to be recognized as such. Plus, you crave performance out of your equipment and if you know there is better out there (better meaning more accurate, faster ROF if you want it, etc.) than it's tough to go old school without second thoughts.

The point I'm making here is, once the evolution happens it's tough to go back for whatever the reason. I've tried. I feel odd being one of the most experienced players on a field at a given day yet sporting ancient equipment or lacking the funds to play as long as I like. It shouldn't be that way but it is. The fact is, the game has changed into a sport of the richer kids (or the kids with parents who shell out the cash for cases of paint) and the self-sufficient are less involved. Most of my friends, and all of my team, rarely play anymore. They have families, mortgages, bills, etc. that demand the money they would have spent on paintball. Sure, it's nice in theory to say "We'll all start playing pump or woodsball to save money and just get out and PLAY" but that's easier said than done. Once you've had the taste of playing at a more intense level, faster pace or with technologically superior equipment it's tough to rationalize going back. It's like racing in a league using Porsche road racing cars and then going down and racing in a league using 70's VW Beetles. You can do it, but you just feel wierd.

I don't think limiting guns to single trigger frames would help much as the game has just changed from where it used to be. Everyone wants that feeling they used to have but no matter how much you adjust your equipment it's not going to be there. Paintball is a different animal than it was in 1997 or whatever and you have to either find ways to enjoy it the way it is now or find ways to suspend time and play it on your own, with friends on your own land or something, and stop paying attention to the mainstream. For me, anytime I go out to the fields I only take my hopper full of paint. That's it. It forces me to move more, shoot less. Plus, if I run out of paint, I just go out and wait for the next game. I get to play virtually all day on what would have lasted me three or four games in my tournament days. It's an adjustment, but one I was glad to make.

-dre
The thing is though, even if you do decide to go back to the woods, it's not the same as it was 10 or 15 years ago. The technology developed for speedball is in the woods now too. Couple that with the cost of paintballs now compared to 10 or 15 years ago, that enables the type of play that is prevelant at most recreationla paintball fields today, there is no haven at most commercial fields for those that want to play a game that involves more stealth and tactics and is more fun for them. It's rare to find a field owner that doesn't push paintball sales these days, and concentrates on games that are more fun for "average" people.

[ProblemKinder]

But see now...the problem is that most fields, the ones that make money on their paint, depend on these kids with their egos shooting 3 cases of paint an hour. Not saying that its right but its also help with their businesses. Thats why you are seeing more and more fields having stock class only days or mech gun only days to help this issue.

Personally I could care less. The only thing that I dislike is overshooting someone. It doesn't have to take 12balls to various parts of my body to eliminate me. you dont have to have limited paint and a non electro marker to accomplish this. Granted it would make it easier. The person just has to show a little restraint when ripping a string. Instead of 9 balls throw 3 at them instead. if you got a good shot and know ur gonna hit them then just send 1 ball, most people are gonna know the accuracy of their markers. Just my opinion.

problem number one: you're right, fiels make money on paint. we shoot less paint, they have to raise the price of admission, which would make people mad of course. Even though it would even out in the end. less paint plus higher admission should equal about the same overall.

second problem, nowadays you have to put enough paint on someone that they're still wiping when the ref shows up to do a paint check otherwise they'll never go out...

[ProblemKinder]

am I the only one that doesn't have the ability to just choose who I play with? It's not like I have 20 friends that play paintball I can just call up and go play. I'm at the mercy of whoever else shows up at the field. And typically, the people that show up are the egos/angels/matrix/ions with their gazillion bps.

That being said, I like the challenge =] It's actually alot of fun playing with my ULE Automag against the higher rates of fire. and playing pump against them is a BLAST.

woodsball is :sleeping: . To me anyways. some people like crawling and creeping like a :ninja: for an hour to finally get a good 20 minute fire fight in. I don't like that. I play paintball to :shooting: people. Going back to woodsball isn't "fixing" any "problem". it's just another style of play that some people prefer.

althought I enjoy the challenge of playing against agglets with crazy BPS, I do agree that it turns away newbies. It only takes one bad experience to turn a player away for life. I get lit up but I understand that's part of the game. most newbies are first convinced by someone that paintball doesn't really hurt all that bad, and then they get lit up from 3 feet away by 10 balls and suddenly they realize that sometimes, paintball hurts like :mad:

[Reiner]

am I the only one that doesn't have the ability to just choose who I play with? It's not like I have 20 friends that play paintball I can just call up and go play. I'm at the mercy of whoever else shows up at the field.You and the majority of paintball players are in the same boat. That includes new players, because they aren't going to have a bunch og good guys to go play renegade ball with. Just about all new players go to a commercial field for their first paintball encounter. And what they encounter is not always to their liking. And therin lies the biggest problem facing the industry right now.

We can sit here and say, "Well, it doesn't matter to me cause I choose who I play with at our renegade field." And that's fine, but that doesn't change the fact that as time goes by, there will be less and less people to play with.

[dre1919]

That is a major problem that paintball faces...probably it's largest. We as a sport never bothered to properly care for the next generation of paintball players. Too many ego driven players saw newbs as "target practice" when they would hit the field. This left new players with the feeling that the "good" players were a-holes, that the sport was only for the rich or those with poor attitudes, or that they needed to just get better and keep at it (the minority I would bet). This is of course at fields, not out on someone's land with friends...but most new players are being welcomed to the game on their own land. They go to fields where they encounter these conditions and it makes people think "Well, that sucked. I got beat up on and I'm not coming back." Or, even if they do like it, they think they could never get to that level or have the money to spend like those individuals so it's a pointless game. It's why I have long since thought that fields should require skill levels of players and the equipment they use to be in certain gaming areas. I mean, sure, it'd be hard to enforce and probably even harder to rule decisively, but at least it's a start toward letting the new kids come out and have a positive experience.

-dre

[littleshwade]

I do agree with that. I have seen this happen several times and it is stupid. The people who just are now starting to play are the next generation of this sport. If their first experience is one of just people going only after them they get the impression that this is what always happens, then they never play again. When ever someone new comes to the field that I play at I or someone watches out for them and tries to help them out with whatever problems they have. Also the rate of fire some of these guns put out are stupid. I have an e-mag so I have no room to talk but I normally play in the mech mode. I do agree something needs to happen to this sport to help it expand and be more appealing to more people.