.50 Poll - the future

[Lohman446]

Just for kicks. Its January 2013 - the new model paintmarkers are out. We have a system to judge this on Where do we stand, and why if you want to get into it?

[punkncat]

Aside from the hype, and which is better, blah blah....I have a LOT of equipment that is all made for .68. Economically speaking I cannot afford to start over with a new caliber, nor am I inclinded to convert my markers, hoppers and barrels over.

The ONLY ones pushing this thing are manufacturers and that is from a profit standpoint based on the paintballs, and the hopes that everyone is going to rush out and buy all new equipment for the new "standard" they are trying to impose on us.

FAIL

[xero28]

It's good to see where many of us (all of us who have voted as of this moment) stand. I think (that is, I hope) this is just another gimmick that will go away. Obviously there will be a lot of people going out to buy these things. Some because they think it is "The Next Big Thing", others to merely satisfy a curiosity, and others somewhere in the middle. But from the many threads and discussions I've seen on the forums, I don't see a lot of people supporting this. Granted, these are all discussions on forums such as this one, MCB, CC, etc. (I don't really frequent PBN that much since the overwhelming intellect of so many on there would make my brain explode) So I suppose you could say that many of these discussions/opinions are coming from people who have been around paintball for more than 6 months and take pride in quality. I've been shooting .68 for over 15 years, and unless someone can justify with cold hard facts that I can better my game by more than, let's say, 65%, then there is no way I will even consider handling anything new. Just my .02.

[Flatliner333]

The powers that be settled on .68 cal. for a reason. My equipment works just fine and has for a loooong time. If I want to "Hot Rod" my gun to work better that is my option and I do not want to loose those options. Just like I dont want to be forced to drive a Hybrid car.I voted for .50 cal. to fail but the last choice seems realistic. Something like this will only stand to drive a wedge between the "Old Timers" and the new generation of players.
Besides 50 Automag does not sound near as cool as 68Automag now does it.

[Mechanic79]

If you can't hit me with .68 cal you still won't be able to hit me with .50 cal.
The only application I can really see the .50 cal is in training pistols or peeps that like to carry pistols on in scenario.

No matter the size of the paint the games still the same, so why change?

[RavishingEddie]

The only way this stands a chance of working is if they open up a field that rents out all 50. cal markers for free and you pay a normal entry fee of say $20 and paint at a very low cost.
Players would not have to bring their guns as they will have everything already in place. This i believe might give the 50 cal a chance to survive and let players try something new without investing in the beginning.

The other option ofcourse would be for the goverment to intervene and force a regulation to switch to 50 .cal similar to the HD conversion, However since this is not government regulated, the 50. cal only has one slim chance to survive. :(


The only upside I believe that a 50 cal. conversion would cause besides paintball accuracy (maybe) is that new companies can be formed. Since all patents are made for 68 Cal paintballs, one could probably argue that 50. cal markers require a totally different redesign than that of the 68. cal. AGD can probably re-introduce the E/X mag without having to pay a license fee :clap:

[Lohman446]

The only way this stands a chance of working is if they open up a field that rents out all 50. cal markers for free and you pay a normal entry fee of say $20 and paint at a very low cost.
Players would not have to bring their guns as they will have everything already in place. This i believe might give the 50 cal a chance to survive and let players try something new without investing in the beginning.

The other option ofcourse would be for the goverment to intervene and force a regulation to switch to 50 .cal similar to the HD conversion, However since this is not government regulated, the 50. cal only has one slim chance to survive. :(


The only upside I believe that a 50 cal. conversion would cause besides paintball accuracy (maybe) is that new companies can be formed. Since all patents are made for 68 Cal paintballs, one could probably argue that 50. cal markers require a totally different redesign than that of the 68. cal. AGD can probably re-introduce the E/X mag without having to pay a license fee :clap:

You do realize its SP behind the push right? I am sure all the patent bases are vaguely covered repeatedly.

[RavishingEddie]

You do realize its SP behind the push right? I am sure all the patent bases are vaguely covered repeatedly.

"Smart Parts! I should of known this was their caper. Quick Robin to the AGD mobile!"
*VOOM" *SSST*

[Stayhuge]

Smart Parts probably already patented any marker that uses 50 cal paint, if it's even possible to patent that. This is probably the way that they plan to survive the next decade. Convince all the other companies to produce 50 cal markers, then sue them all for royalties. I wouldn't put it past them!! :mad:

[wetwrks]

As I posted up elsewhere. .50 was tried before...years ago. AND not just in the 3357. There was a wood stocked pump rifle that was set up for it too. AND it failed.

It is too small and too light. It is highly affected by the wind. It doesn't easily break on impact. It doesn't leave a good mark when it does break.

[Dend78]

my guess is they will still both be here but it will be like a VHS betamax kinda thing or Blue-Ray and HD

[rawbutter]

Aside from the hype, and which is better, blah blah....I have a LOT of equipment that is all made for .68. Economically speaking I cannot afford to start over with a new caliber, nor am I inclinded to convert my markers, hoppers and barrels over.

The ONLY ones pushing this thing are manufacturers and that is from a profit standpoint based on the paintballs, and the hopes that everyone is going to rush out and buy all new equipment for the new "standard" they are trying to impose on us.


Exactly.

This is why I think it may actually succeed. Even though woodsballers are a huge part of the paintball market, tournament players are even bigger. (Seriously.... a decent tournament player goes through more paint in a day than I do in a year.) And those tournament players are the ones buying brand new markers every year. They're the ones buying into all the hype.

And the manufacturing companies stand to make a TON of money. If they can make this work, then every serious player out there will have to basically re-buy everything. Seriously. The HPA tank is the only thing that can stay. Barrels, loaders, and guns all need to be completely replaced. All the manufacturing companies have to do is get together and sign on the dotted line and say, "We all agree to only make .50 stuff now." It's a risk, sure, but if they can pull it off, they will make a huge profit and "save" the industry (or at least their own companies).

Sure, the manufacturers will keep the .68 stuff around for a while just to string us woodsballer along, but eventually they'll try to phase it out.

Big companies don't exist to service the customer. They exist to keep the shareholders happy. And the only thing that keeps chareholders happy is profit.

[Gadget]

Sadly I think it will succeed. Like the rest of you I have no interest in .50, however once the hype machine starts, it's going to drag all the agg kiddies along with it and once the bucks start getting spent on .50 equipment, you can bet .68 will be marginalised over time. :(

[Psi]

I have to admit that I am concerned because the principals invloved have a great track record of getting the paintball masses to swallows huge steaming piles of BS. However,if Dennis Tippmann couldn't get people to use .62 when he had a fully automatic and everybody else had a tilt and shoot pistol, these guys should not have a chance.

[Ando]

my guess is they will still both be here but it will be like a VHS betamax kinda thing or Blue-Ray and HD
If that's the case we need to get the porn industry on our side :p

[Flatliner333]

Has everyone noticed who voted in the first selection?

[Ratt]

Has everyone noticed who voted in the first selection?

Wow...I did NOT see that coming... :wow:

[Enemy]

the big thing will be in tournament pb if smartparts can convince a seires to only allow for .50 cal than .68 is done, that will be the tell all.

[greensplash]

yes if 50 cal takes over im sure many people on this site will be done with paintball seeing as how will any mag work


theres a petition on pbn odd place but they have alot of people pushing against it

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3227066

[Skoad]

I have been out of the game for a long time. What is this .50 all about? Are there any realistic advantages backed by data? Is it just something the 'industry' wants to change to drive sales back up?

Anyone explain this to me, or direct me to a post or article somewhere would be appreciated.

[Lohman446]

Based on basic formulas if the ball weights 1.5 grams it should be equivilant in flight characteristics to a 2.8gram 68. If it weights less it could be substantially worse (and a few tenths of a gram makes a massive difference) if it weights more it could be better - if it weighs 2.8grams it could be substantially better. However, base computations of equivilant fill show it coming out to something like 1.2 grams. SP (GI MILSIM) has said it is a denser fill - but will not elaborate or cannot. Since noone outside of those hyping it have gotten hands on it, and noone seems willing or able to give weight, noone really knows or can even predict. Going off known factors it looks far inferior (1.2 grams).

[BigEvil]

Yeah yeah I know this is futile - but sign it anyways. They are watching.


http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3227066

[RavishingEddie]

I don't understand why paintball has been so slow to evolutionize the paintball. We have found ways to make markers smaller lighter, more efficient to the point were finding a notable fix is difficult.
We however have not found a way to manufacure a paintball more cost effectively. If Smart Parts or any other company wanted to really put a strangle hold on the competition, they would simply have to find a way to make quality paintballs for say $20.00 a case.

You wanna "evolutionize" paintball? Well then theres your homework!

Now making 50. cal paintballs is really the laziest and most selfish concept I have heard.

Why? Because making a 50. cal instead of a .68 cal is like telling people to drive scooters or motor cycles instead of developing hybrid cars.

Selfish because 50. cal will significantly lower production costs of paintballs, but where is the guarantee that they will share these savings with the consumer? Reference oil companies.

[Reiner]

Is it just something the 'industry' wants to change to drive sales back up?

Anyone explain this to me, or direct me to a post or article somewhere would be appreciated.
.50 cal was an idea brought to us by Richmond Italia. Italia was a bigwig in paintball for a long time and sold out a few years ago and "retired" from the paintball industry. Recently, he has wanted to get back into the paintball industry and .50 cal is his idea (gimick?) to get back in. He's selling it as a way to make paintball cheaper for players, more profit for field and store owners, a multitude of improvements in performance and the ability to have smaller equipment and carry more ammo. The way he's marketing it, it makes you wonder why anyone would ever be oposed. But it is marketing. That's what marketers do, sell people on perceived value and Italia is very good at it. Especially when you consider how he has used the rumor mill to do most of the marketing for him. He's literally got the industry in a buzz and all he did was put out a couple of press releases and granted a couple of interviews. The man is very smart from a business perspective.

It's interesting to watch how some people have been absolutely opposed to the idea dnothers have been behind the concept and both sides argue with passion. All this without any of them having actually seen the new .50 cal paintball. It's quite comical when you think about it.

I Italia has enough supporters now that even if the .50 cal don't measure up to snuff, there will be anough people who are going to want it to succeed, that there will be a market for it.

[Newt]

It wouldn't be all too hard to do a refit for a mag. Basically, we're looking at a new barrel, a breech sizing sleeve, possibly a new sear or sear extender to make up for geometry, and a smaller bolt. The latter is the hardest, since you'll have to mess with the pneumatics of the Lvl-10 bolt.

Over all, I can see how it would make things easier from a manufacturing standpoint. .50 caliber = 0.500". Instead of having to wastefully turn down expensive 3/4" round stock for a .68"+ diameter, you can order 1/2" round stock and you're good to go in many cases.

Still... completely ditching existing technology is a huge pain. I just switched to the mag this past season. I love it and can't see myself buying another marker in the near future.

When you build an industry on a standard like .68 caliber or inches or metric or whatever, it's not easy to change. I remember reading that the solid fuel rocket boosters for the space shuttle were the diameter they were because it's the max width they can fit on a railroad car. Railroads were built to size on existing roads, which were sized for carts, which were standardized by the Romans. The Romans built their roads to fit their chariots, which were standardized on the size of two horses butts. Shaking off a legacy standard is not something the human creature is easily made to do.

I say if we're going to do it, let's just go all out and adopt a metric standard like 25 mm.

[insixdays777]

The follow is a post from Jack Rice of Alienpb. Owner and designer of the Alien paintball markers. www.alienpb.com (http://www.alienpb .com)

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3228393

"The biggest question is the disance - side line - back to back is not impressive - they said it was shooting 270 but I took my chrono and it was 320 + - 10

I was also told that the rules should be changed so 50 cal is allowed to shot higher speeds because the impact was less, give them an advantage to make things fair.

On the the side I also saw EGO's convert kit and, as I suspected, two sleeves and a new bolt changes it quickly.

From what I saw if you want to play in a smaller area with less impact then 50 cal is good - maybe even for newer players or younger players - so it hurts less - maybe walk on's all play 50 cal so nobody gets over shot - might be really good for the sport overall. But as far as real ballers changing - not from what I saw...my opinion anyway "

First objective eye witness comments I have seen. Looks like GI was fudging on the velocity. Does not surprise me. funny that Jack noticed a distance issue and they where still shooting at 330ish.

This has changed my mind. I fully support .50cal now. Please suckers buy it. I cant wait to shoot you from across the field with my .68cal. ;)

I hate to break it to GI Milsim, but they arnt going to be able to get field standard FPS increased to over 300fps, its just not going to happen. Insurance issues, ASTM issues, enforcement of 2 different calibers at 2 different speeds, not going to happen.

[insixdays777]

Looks like Scott Rice (Jack's son), of alien paintball shot it and was shot by it. He makes a GREAT point that I have not heard yet about it. It is hard to trace the ropes and see the smaller hits from across the field.

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3228457 (http://http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3228457)

"shot .50 cal yesterday at World Cup 2 times, first in the dealer shooting range and later on one of the fields. When shooting in the range I thought it shot just like 68 cal except that a hopper holds a lot more balls which is nice.

Just after 6pm the G.I. Sim 50 cal was on the field. I watched someone shoot from back right to his mirror at Chris Lasoya. The accuracy did not seem as good as a normal 68. Chris started with just a normal in action lean out of the bunker and when he didn’t get hit after a couple ropes maybe 15-20 shots total he put most of his body out and got hit several times. The paint was making it across field, but not with a lot of speed. They said it was shooting at around 270 fps which looked right.

I then asked Chris if he could do the same shooting at me. Chris’ aim was better but still not as good as 68. I was leaning out of the bunker almost halfway. The first string of maybe 8 all missed me a couple getting close, the next of maybe 6 one hit my mask. I leaned out a little more exposing about half of my upper body and 4 of maybe 6 hit me. I am however 6’2 and 200 pounds. Playing that far out of my bunker I should have been hit at least 50%. In the test range the splat appeared to about as big as a 68, but the splat on my shirt was about half the size of 68.

Chris handed me the gun to shoot at him and the first thing I noticed is that the 50 cal is much harder to see across field. I could not tell where my rope was going. I moved the gun up and down as I threw a rope at him and saw one hit his mask, but I couldnt tell if I was missing high or low. When I walked closer to him later I saw I hit him a couple times on his shoulder but I didn’t see it break when I was shooting. Tough to yell to the refs that you hit the guy if you cant see it break. Half the paint makes a big difference from across the field.

I then watched it get chrono’d and it came in between 315 to 335 with about 7 shots. Much higher then the claimed 270. The 50 cal does not carry as well as the 68. I also have a hard time believing that they didn’t know it was going much faster then 270. I would think that they know normal ball speed isn’t enough to carry across field and so turned it up. PSP also has the smallest fields I don’t see how it could carry far enough in regular weekend paintball games and scenario seems impossible without really turning it up.

One of the reps then said that the fps rule needed to be changed for 50 cal since it’s smaller and doesn’t hit as hard. That might work if the game was only shooting across field, but what if your gun fighting at close range and the ball hasn’t slowed down much? The guy with 68 is shooting at 300 fps and the guy with 50 gets to shoot at 330? Doesn’t seem very fair. Rather is seems that they know they need to change the rules to favor 50 cal so it can compete.

The pluses of the 50 cal are the higher count in your hopper (you’d have to get a new one) and pods and it doesn’t hurt as much when you get hit. Doubt its soft enough that girls will want to play but it may be better for the birthday group kids. Real ballers in my opinion will continue to shoot 68"

- alienscott

http://www.youtube.com/user/Matteasy7#p/u/2/xYTs0d7JI5o

This looks like the above narrative. Not sure if the guy getting shot is Scott but I am sure it was the same deal/setup. Watch the video, I know it low res, but the balls do become very hard to see after about 75feet.

[LK-13]

newest option in .50 cal paint hoppers for the up and coming field owner?
the all new

"PAY AS YOU PLAY COIN OPERATED HOPPER SYSTEM!!"

avalible in both AGG FLAMING FORUM RED
and TACTICAL BLACK (rails sold separately at outragously inflated prices even though the MAP makes sure we screw the field owner)
signed B. Gardner.

tournament size:
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u215/LK-13/Funny%20Stuff/gumball-machine.jpg

Pump/Limited Rounds Play:
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u215/LK-13/Funny%20Stuff/WholesaleGumballMachine.jpg

Tactical Black:
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u215/LK-13/Funny%20Stuff/122751_lg.jpg

[druid]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZabfFBZ0bQ&feature=sub

and

http://mcarterbrown.com/50ballistics/

Yes you can argue that lack of chrono showing and other "empirical" testing items were mis-performed [on video] but it shows exactly what I've been saying all along...the .50 cal sucked 20 [well, 15] years ago and it still does.

I rest my case.

[CatoRockwell]

It's foolish to assume that it will flop... I hope it does, but lets face the facts:

1. This time around it has the support of almost all major manufacturers
2. The vast majority of paintball players buy into all the hype out there and will buy what they are told to buy
3. Although the range is what? 10-15 percent shorter, it is almost 50 percent more efficient.
4. Most manufacturer's are making conversion kits for existing markers.
5. It saves companies money on paint. We all know they will end up charging us the same amount, but they'll save a bundle.

Now there is a whole list of disadvantages, which others have been happy to point out, but just trying to be realistic: Most players on this forum are capable of independent thought, but this is a small minority in paintball. For every one of us, there is at the very least 10 players who buy into the hype and for example buy a new Ego every year, or at least wish they could.

Once they Sponsors convince the Speedball teams to adopt it (which is as simple as saying: "you'll play with what we tell you to play with"), it'll all be over from there. I think that 68 will still be around, but I honestly don't think 50 is going away this time.

I honestly haven't shot it personally, and maybe it is neato, I don't think I'd be willing to give up the range, but either way I hope one of the great Tinkerer's on this forum comes up with a conversion kit for the mags, that way I have my options without losing my baby.