Level 10 tuning

[DoubleDutch]

Hi all,

I got an used X-Valve a while ago, and just got around to messing with it. I installed it in my classic body with the longest spring, and gassed it up to see if it would work as tuned by the previous owner. It shot great, but when I tried the squeegee test, I think I about put a hole in the opposite wall when it shot out. So, I am guessing a paintball will probably not survive if partially fed. Now I am reading through the tuning instructions found on the front page of AO, and they are all starting from scratch. I am not sure where to start, the instructions don't tell me what to do when the anti-chop is not working. Any help would be appreciated.

EDIT: Now it works, thanks guys. Now, on to ULT tuning

Thanks,

Doubledutch

[Ando]

This is what your lvl 10 (in proper order -->) should look like inside your powertube. White plastic washer, brass carrier, shims, and cap.
http://i36.tinypic.com/333cyhj.jpg
The oring in the brass carrier should be facing down into the valve. Start with 2 shims (the shims is what regulates the bolt) and just keep adding till you get what your wanting.

Edit: Do you know which carrier you need. If not let me know and i'll run you through it.

Edit #2: You can but not advised to put the squeegee down muzzle of the marker. Put it in your feedneck. You very well might poke your eye out :D

[DoubleDutch]

Yup, that's what it looks like, with 2 shims.

I don't know if I have the correct size carrier, that is how it came with the valve. If I read the instructions correctly, the shims are needed if the bolt sticks and won't reset? Then the carrier controls the anti-chop function then?

I guess I can take out the shims and then start the tuning process from the beginning. I have all the carriers I think, but I do not have any extra shims. I saw them in the airgun store, I guess I will order a few. They are not the same shims as the ULT are they? I need some of those too, a few are bent.

Thanks for the replies by the way. :cheers:

[Ando]

ULT shims will be fine. Just remember 2 ULT = 1 lvl 10

If I was you I'd make sure that carrier is the right one. Go up one size (make sure your using the same o-ring), if it leaks, you know you had the right one. If not, go to the next larger carrier till it leaks and then go back to the last one you had. Again...make sure your using the same o-ring.

The shims controls the "anti-chop function". ;)

Edit: Well it's part of the "anti-chop function" :rolleyes:

[DoubleDutch]

Ok, will do. It will have to wait until I get a chance to go back to the proshop though, I exhausted all my air.

[athomas]

Shims don't affect the anti-chop operation. Shims only affect how far the bolt has to move in order to vent air. The only time you need shims in your setup, is if you get a breach block and the bolt moves but not far enough to vent, but it is too far for the sear to catch. If the bolt cycles or vents or chuffs, then shims will not help it reset. Adding shims moves the carrier oring towards the back of the powertube so it is closer to the vent hole in the bolt stem. Too many shims will cause the oring to be too close and sometimes the oring will not seal properly causing an intermittent leak.

The bolt springs regulate the amount of antichop. The stiffer the spring, the greater the anti chop. The ideal bolt spring will allow you to operate your mag about 20 fps above the lowest setting that the gun will cycle at.

The carriers help adjust the size of the orings so that all orings can be made to fit the bolt stem with exactly the right amount of tension. Too much tension and the oring will cause the bolt to stick. Too little tension and the oring will leak. Use the largest carrier that does not allow a leak. Always test the setup without any shims installed. That way you won't accidentally get a shim induced leak.

[hmudd13]

When doing the "squeegee" test, how far in did you put the squeegee?
If you only go partly into the ball drop area, the anti chop function won't be enabled. You need to have the squeegee in far enough to simulate a ball in the breach.

Made that mistake with my finger once. It won't happen again though. :tard:

I'll be at dynamic tomorrow to pre reg for the 24th. Maybe I'll see you there.

[DoubleDutch]

Hey Bill! I swung by and pre-registered today, and got my tank filled so I can tinker with the thing and hopefully get everything working before the big game. I guess I will miss the party.

Ok, I am using the longest spring I have right now, could it be then that the velocity is set too high? I put the squeegee almost all the way in, with about 1/8 inch between it and the bolt, but now I remember that it is one of those very fluffy headed ones, so perhaps the bolt was able to move enough before encountering significant resistance. I will try again tomorrow, don't think the wife would appreciate me keeping the kids up with dry firing mags.

So if I understand athomas and ando right, remove the shims, go to the next larger carrier until it leaks then go back one. Then what do I look for that tells me I need (more) shims?

[Ando]

Ando = :tard:

You area absolutely right Athomas. What I meant to say was carrier can be used to control the anti-chop or slow down the bolt. Been a while since I've messed with my lvl 10's. Once they're set, there's really no reason to mess with them again :rolleyes:


Hey Bill! I swung by and pre-registered today, and got my tank filled so I can tinker with the thing and hopefully get everything working before the big game. I guess I will miss the party.

Ok, I am using the longest spring I have right now, could it be then that the velocity is set too high? I put the squeegee almost all the way in, with about 1/8 inch between it and the bolt, but now I remember that it is one of those very fluffy headed ones, so perhaps the bolt was able to move enough before encountering significant resistance. I will try again tomorrow, don't think the wife would appreciate me keeping the kids up with dry firing mags.

So if I understand athomas and ando right, remove the shims, go to the next larger carrier until it leaks then go back one. Then what do I look for that tells me I need (more) shims?

Like you said. Ck your carrier first, after you get that set, add the 2 shims and test the marker while you stick something down the feedneck. 2 things will happen, either your lvl 10 will work as advertise (vent and reset) or the bolt will stick. That's when you start adding shims. Most of my lvl 10's required 3-4 FYI.

[athomas]

I never use shims and have never had a problem. Basically, the distance is so short that anything in the breach that allows the bolt to move far enough to get past the sear, will also allow enough movement to vent the air and reset. Put a squeegie lightly against the front of the bolt and fire the gun. It will push the squeegie far enough to vent, even without shims. You will also feel how light it is. Move the squeegie out and try it. Once you get past 1/4" in front of the bolt, you will feel a significant hit.

[DoubleDutch]

Ok, I found the right carrier size, which was one larger than the one that was originally installed, and tried it without shims. The anti-chop seems to work, but every third shot or so, the bolt will not reset all the way and leak. If I push it with a squeegee, and it goes back about 1/8 of an inch and the leak stops. I have added 4 shims (all that I have) and it still does it. Any idea what that means?

[maniacmechanic]

sounds like your still getting a little bit of bolt stick , oil that oring a shoot it a thousand times to break it in , athomas , what do you think ??

[athomas]

Does sound like bolt stick.

If it is leaking, shims won't help. The whole idea of the shims is to allow the vent hole to be exposed when the bolt is too far forward for the sear to catch. If it fires and won't reset, shims won't help. It has already released the air. If the bolt chuffs on a breach blockage, shims won't help, because it has already released air. If it is leaking, shims will only make it worse.

If it fires and won't reset or if if chuffs and won't reset, then it is bolt stick caused by a carrier that is too tight. If you already have the largest carrier that doesn't leak, then you need to change orings and start again. A bad oring (could have an imperfection) or a piece of dirt on the oring could cause you to use a carrier that is tighter than you would normally need in order to stop any leaking. That would cause bolt stick.

Also, hold the trigger in after you fire. There may be a slight leak for a couple of seconds and then it should go away. If it stays leaking with the trigger held, then you may have a bad oring in the top of your on-off. This could cause bolt stick as well.

[DoubleDutch]

Ok, I went back to the original carrier size, and it shoots reliably now with 2 shims. It resets on a squeegee, but it seems to me that the bolt is allowed to travel too little before it goes full speed, not sure a paintball would reset it. I'll have to see next weekend I guess.

Now, on to my next problem. All that was with the standard RT on/off, but I have an ULT I want to use. When I put 6 ULT shims in it, I cannot put the valve in the body. I have 5 shims in it, but it is tremendously easy to shortstroke. Any ideas how to remedy that?

Should I start a new thread instead of continuing this one?

[maniacmechanic]

when you are aired up how large is the gap between the back of the trigger & the rod ??, should be about 1/16th"

[DoubleDutch]

Can't tell anymore, I am out of air again. Is the significance that not enough space between the trigger and the trigger rod could be causing the shortstroking? Or is it too much space the problem?

[athomas]

If it fires then you don't have to worry about not having enough space. If it is not touching the back of the trigger when the trigger is held against the safety, then there is enough gap. The actual gap should be around the thickness of a credit card.

The short stroking could still be a result of your level 10. If it is still slowed due to sticking (even though it is fully cycling), then it could lead to short stroking. You should never need more than 6 shims in your ULT. 6 shims should allow it to fit in the body though. Check thta you actually have ULT shims and not a couple of level 10 shims by mistake. The level 10 shims are 0.01" thick and the ULT shims are 0.005" thick.

[DoubleDutch]

I think the short-stroking is my fault: I have a single trigger, and when I try to rapid-fire normally, I do not let go of the trigger all the way before attempting the next shot. When I stick just my finger in, without holding the grip, then bang my finger rapidly back and forth between the trigger and the trigger guard, it rapid fires just fine. Is that what is referred to as fanning the trigger? Right now I find that it means I can shoot faster with the RT on/off (without much bounce) than with the ULT when holding the grip normally. I guess I will practice with the ULT some more to see if I can get the hang of it, otherwise I will go back to the RT on/off. Does this sound normal to you guys?