Tippmann X-7 Phenom aka New Cheap E-Mag

[2superblus]

http://www.tippmann.com:80/usa/default.aspx

Watch it.

Watching the video it looks like a Mag in a Tippmann body.


And No I do not approve of it. :mad:

[Ratt]

Hmmm...that 'Flex Technology' looks kinda familiar... :ninja:

Not a bad-looking gun. If I were into woodsball, I would definitely look into this gun.

[MANN]

Watching the video it looks like a Mag in a Tippmann body.


minus the quality.

[gunman_2000]

I like the list at the end where they say "you can't find any of these features in any other gun".

flex valve- basically a mag valve
from electro to mech mode- Emag
double the number of shots- oooooooh boy, i don't think so
more accurate- the old open bolt vs closed bolt argument? oh gee
compact design- I think a Mini is more compact

god I hate marketing.

[Chronobreak]

http://automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=246153

halfway down

[BiNumber3]

I wanna see the internals of the valve tho, they managed to get the operating pressure down to 300 psi apparently
Wonder if that affects the max rof

as for the improved accuracy, they didnt say it was because of the open bolt, it was because of reduced recoil or something

I like how they say it's supposedly the easiest marker to field strip tho....

[pinkanese]

I like the list at the end where they say "you can't find any of these features in any other gun".

flex valve- basically a mag valve
from electro to mech mode- Emag
double the number of shots- oooooooh boy, i don't think so
more accurate- the old open bolt vs closed bolt argument? oh gee
compact design- I think a Mini is more compact

god I hate marketing.
You forgot to mention that thye stole the half effect sensor from the emag as well.

[gunman_2000]

Oh I noticed that..i stood right out at me, but it wasn't in the info posted at the end.

[Rob-0]

here are the automag valve and the Phenom valve

Automag
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w4/rob-0/retro.jpg

Phenom
http://www.tippmannparts.com/v/vspfiles/photos/small/ph5.jpg

[mpsd]

So, is the on/off mounted horizontaly? I don't get how it's actuated without a sear.

[Coralis]

wow, that exploded view of the phenom valve reminds me a little bit of a nelson based pump marker with the power tube and all.

[insixdays777]

So, is the on/off mounted horizontaly? I don't get how it's actuated without a sear.

There are better pics on PBN. The on/off is mounted just like an automags, the "noid" appears to be similar to an emags but smaller of course, it is just a noid with a plunger that plunges the on off up.

there is no sear, I think because the valve when at rest has zero pressure applied to the bolt. I think the chamber only fills after you pull the trigger and once the metered gas is realesed the on/off cuts off air flow to the chamber completely.

better pics and you can see the "noid plunger" and the vertically mounted on/off.

http://www.tristatespecops.com/gear.asp?gear=MARKER_PHENOM

PICTURES BELOW.

see pics 10 and 12 I belive

http://www.tristatespecops.com/albums/TippmannX7Phenom/photo12.html

[jade_monkey07]

i want to see some reviews on it and see how it compares

[mpsd]

There are better pics on PBN. The on/off is mounted just like an automags, the "noid" appears to be similar to an emags but smaller of course, it is just a noid with a plunger that plunges the on off up.

there is no sear, I think because the valve when at rest has zero pressure applied to the bolt. I think the chamber only fills after you pull the trigger and once the metered gas is realesed the on/off cuts off air flow to the chamber completely.

better pics and you can see the "noid plunger" and the vertically mounted on/off.

http://www.tristatespecops.com/gear.asp?gear=MARKER_PHENOM

PICTURES BELOW.

see pics 10 and 12 I belive

http://www.tristatespecops.com/albums/TippmannX7Phenom/photo12.html

Thanks. Now I understand it better. How much will it cost? Something around $400 or more?

:cheers:

[maniacmechanic]

the valve is made from plastic , correct ?? , lifespan ??

[Dirge]

Interesting design. Basically a Mag valve, an Emag trigger system and no sear. Wonder how well it dose as far as shot count and rof (how fast can it recharge). A bit too milsim for me, but it may a decient design. I really want to know how the whole searless bit works, and how well.

[Chrome]

At the risk of sounding ignorant (:D), two questions:

1) with the sear less design (interpreted by me as the on/off is actuated only by an upward firing solenoid), how exactly does "mechanical mode" work if there is no electricity to fire the solenoid? Is there something I'm missing looking at the pictures?

2) without a sear holding the bolt back when at rest, what is going to happen as the return spring for the bolt wears/starts losing tension, as it is the only thing keeping the bolt in place?

[LK-13]

the valve is made from plastic , correct ?? , lifespan ??
no.
Teflon Infused Anodized Aluminum.

basically an aluminum valve with a Teflon electroplated on to it.
like a T-Fal frying pan.

[insixdays777]

At the risk of sounding ignorant (:D), two questions:

1) with the sear less design (interpreted by me as the on/off is actuated only by an upward firing solenoid), how exactly does "mechanical mode" work if there is no electricity to fire the solenoid? Is there something I'm missing looking at the pictures?

2) without a sear holding the bolt back when at rest, what is going to happen as the return spring for the bolt wears/starts losing tension, as it is the only thing keeping the bolt in place?


1) Not sure how it works, but I would imagine that it could be easily done with the trigger pushing on a rod, trigger only has to push the "plunger" up, heck when you flip it to mech mode the trigger could simply directly push on the plunger which would push the on/off up, I believe the on/off is pushed back down with air pressure.

2) I believe nothing will happen. The spring only returns the bolt, when it does so there is no gas pushing against the bolt for the spring to overcome. Just needs to be strong enough to push back the bolt only.

It is not exactly like an automag. The automag chamber is always pressurized like a champagne bottle and the bolt is the cork, the sear holds it back. The chamber pressure is always pushing against the bolt. It is why the automag needs a sear.

The Phenom appears to keep the chamber empty while the bolt is at rest. When the trigger is pulled the chamber fills and pushes the bolt forward, ball is fired and the chamber is empty and does not fill back up. The chamber is empty and the spring pushes the bolt back with no air resistance from the empty chamber.


Price of the Phenom is 399.99

[Newt]

Not to sound rude, but you could get the real thing for about that price. :rolleyes:

[smeek]

Not to sound rude, but you could get the real thing for about that price. :rolleyes:

At $400 the phenom is cheaper than the mech automags that AGD is still selling, and it's a hell of a lot cheaper than emags were. I kind of want one to mess around with.

[Oddux]

Mind you, the "double the number of shots" and more accurate claims are not based on a comparison with the Mag, which Tippmann is pretending the Phenom isn't at all related to, but in comparison to the X7.

Tippmanns rough pot metal blow forward design isn't remarkably noted for its accuracy and its efficiency is just supposedly average (*) though my personal experiences using a 98 for 4 years and an a-5 for three argue with that. Just not having a d-cell battery size chunk of metal slamming forward at the first stages of every shot would practically halve the x-7s shot groups.

Frankly the only thing I want to know is where the gases for the Cyclone are being siphoned off of. I'd love to find a way to fit a Cyclone to a Mag without killing my efficiency, I loved the Cyclone and its battery-less ways, its the only reason I hung on to the A-5 as long as I did.



* Source (http://www.scubatoys.com/paintball/paintballshots.asp)

[CatoRockwell]

Although I think this is somewhat a :ninja: thing to do by tippman, and honestly won't ever compare to the real thing, I am curious to see if you could get a similar mod on an automag so that you could make a cyclone work with the xvalve.

I'm not an engineer or an airsmith. Anyone think they could do this?

[Frizzle Fry]

I am curious to see if you could get a similar mod on an automag so that you could make a cyclone work with the xvalve.

I'm not an engineer or an airsmith. Anyone think they could do this?

Search feature. I know of at least 1 that's been done, and there are many threads.

[Gadget]

Looks like someone managed it - this guy was at the same scenario game as me at the weekend, but I didn't realise he was running an E-Mag until I saw the event photos :(

http://www.chimpy.com/misc/cyclone.jpg

[WickedKlown2]

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff63/wickedklown2/BTRipClip-1.jpg


That looks like a BT Rip Clip (notice the rip drive nob on the bottom of the body above his trigger finger) and the green diamond is a painted over BT jewel on the body of the Rip Clip mounted on a Warp Right E-TAC,,, not a cyclone... Nice E-Tac :) set-up...

WK2

[Gadget]

Ah, sorry, my bad - not too hot on identifying milsim stuff :)

[WickedKlown2]

Ah, sorry, my bad - not too hot on identifying milsim stuff :)

It's all good Brother :D,,, but a nice find none the less...

WK2

[littleshwade]

If I am not mistaken on the video they said it is a spool valve or am I wrong. Also aren't spool valve problematic. I am sure some of us used to use tippmans before and I had issues with them, so who know what is going to happen when this is released. I would rather shoot a mag any day of the week :headbang:

[Beemer]

You forgot to mention that thye stole the half effect sensor from the emag as well.

Its the HES, Hall effect sensor. AGD has PAF patent applied for or PP patent pending on that.

Thats two that are useing it now, the Mini and the Phenom. :wow:

[gunman_2000]

but knowing the issue that caused trouble for the emag in the first place, I would like to think AGD wouldn't be too bothered as long as they were asked? Isnt that the kind of thing we like to see around here? A helping hand in the sport when someone has an idea.

This could have the potential to boost interest in Mags in general, if these are such a hit, and people look into the history of it, more people might try picking up a Mag.

[Beemer]

Isnt that the kind of thing we like to see around here? A helping hand in the sport when someone has an idea

Yup thats how it WAS, just some got off the boat and wanted more of the Pie.

I started my own thread so this one dont get jacked. :)

[LK-13]

Yup thats how it WAS, just some got off the boat and wanted more of the Pie.

I started my own thread so this one dont get jacked. :)
i was wondering just how much of the AGD IP was Patented and how much was public domain.

now when one holds a patent, you can choose to enforce it or not, give permission to use the IP
or sell license;

so with the ill will the SP created by their own actions;
giving permission to use given IP that will cost SP sales at a time when the SP sales
are shrinking could and might just hurt them more than any legal battle ever could.

Tippmann has a devout following.
Once agg-letts start getting spanked by a Tippmann gun/marker, and it's not break the bank over the top priced...

this might just be a bit of a renaissance for paintball as we come out of a "Dark age"

[smeek]

If I am not mistaken on the video they said it is a spool valve or am I wrong. Also aren't spool valve problematic. I am sure some of us used to use tippmans before and I had issues with them, so who know what is going to happen when this is released. I would rather shoot a mag any day of the week :headbang:

I have to chime in on this. Tippmanns are not problematic in the least, if they were they wouldn't be one of the most common field rental gun. The Model 98 series is like the energizer bunny of paintball, simple and reliable they just keep on going.

Any issues I had with my tippmann were user caused, nothing I could ever blame on the marker.

Spool valve's require more mantenance and have more nonstatic orings than most other markers, that's where the problems pop up. The mini is considered a spool valve and I wouldn't consider it problematic unless you have one of the first gen poppets that likes to leak or you don't properly lube the bolt. Any gun will give you issues if you don't maintain it properly and that's where most problems come from.

Tippmanns are built like tanks though, you might have had a lemon or inherited someone else's problems but if tippmanns were problematic field owners wouldn't keep them as their main staple rental guns.

[WickedKlown2]

Here's a review thread that my Team has started about the new Tippmann x7 Phenom Marker on the Hellions Forum...

Review: Tippmann X7 Phenom - Hellions.net/Warzone - Tippmann x7 Phenom Review (http://www.hellions.net/Warzone/showthread.php?p=15814#post15814)

I'm so glad that we can finally talk about this outstanding marker ,,, the silence has been killing me... Yes there are members of the Hellions that own both E-Tacs and Mags...

WK2

[xX TANK Xx]

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. I had an e-grip X7 a while back and after I polished the internals, added new feed paddles, and upgraded barrel it shot very nice. I imagine with it being electro pneumatic that polishing internals won't be needed......just a guess. Personally, I think I'd rather put a warpfeed left body on my classic and run a qloader system for a woodsball setup. The phenom looks to come in at a good price point though at $399, same price as the old e-grip. Call me old fashioned but I've fallen in love with mech mags. :hail:

[SSP REAPER]

Looks like someone managed it - this guy was at the same scenario game as me at the weekend, but I didn't realise he was running an E-Mag until I saw the event photos :(

http://www.chimpy.com/misc/cyclone.jpg
That is Gommie404, he's a regular here :) and I currently own that CNC battery pack (camo paint and all) :cool:

[CatoRockwell]

First off, there was a comment earlier about spool valves being problematic. If I am not mistaken, I do believe that the automag valves ARE spool valves, unbalanced spool valves, and I'd say my automag is the most reliable gun I've owned, over every tippmann I've owned as well.

Secondly, I've read a bit into it and it seems that the built in reg is kind of a joke, http://www.network54.com/Forum/9013/message/1256267078/Re-+Opinions+on+the+new+X7

apparently "The "regulator" at the back does not regulate air pressure like an Automag. It merely volumizes the dump chamber at a fixed time period after the air has been introduced. Since changes in input pressure change this period, it has the effect of maintaining velocity based on input pressure. This is unlike an Automag that regulates air pressure in the dump chamber prior to a shot."

I've got a funny feeling that I'm going to be converting alot of local tippmann players to the gospel of AGD, once they try it out, get a taste of what could be, and then I let them shoot my tac one to show them what could be. :headbang:

[snoopay700]

What i find hilarious is that it took the competition nearly 10 years to come out with an elector/mech design after the emag. It also took a long time for any other spool valved blow forward gun to appear. It seems that it's just another case of a company taking ideas from AGD without credit, and also another example of AGD being well ahead of the times.

[pinkanese]

What i find hilarious is that it took the competition nearly 10 years to come out with an elector/mech design after the emag. It also took a long time for any other spool valved blow forward gun to appear. It seems that it's just another case of a company taking ideas from AGD without credit, and also another example of AGD being well ahead of the times.

What started this is when AGD gave permission to tippman and tiberius to make theri pistols. So tippman figures they will just use teh valve design in a full size marker too. Not to mention the fact that the patent on the mag's valve design is about to expire.

[CatoRockwell]

What started this is when AGD gave permission to tippman and tiberius to make theri pistols. So tippman figures they will just use teh valve design in a full size marker too. Not to mention the fact that the patent on the mag's valve design is about to expire.


Really? I thought the patent law for mechanical devices was longer. that sucks. Well TK it's time to show us what you've been cooking. Take it to the next level.

One question: I got into mags more recently, and I've converted my close friends in the meantime, but I've read a bit about the lawsuit SP did to lay claim on the electro.

My question is if they pay royalty rights, why can't AGD do electro markers just like everyone else?

EDIT: I hope AGD is getting royalties off of those pistols, they sell like mad. I know that AGD believes in a time when paintball was an open forum of ideas, but that time is long past and you can bet your booty that if AGD suddenly started putting cyclone feeds on their markers or making first strike kits, that Tippmann and Tiberius would make sure they got a piece of the pie.

[pinkanese]

As far as i know, and can find on the interwebs, patents last for 17 years, and the first mags came out in 1990 or so, i am not sure when exactly the patent was issued though.

And the reason AGD didn't just pay the royalties is because they are AGD, they don't do sissy **** like pay off the bullies, same reason AKA didn't pay.

And I doubt anyone besides those involved know if AGD/Tom are getting paid anything by Tib or Tippman.

[CatoRockwell]

As far as i know, and can find on the interwebs, patents last for 17 years, and the first mags came out in 1990 or so, i am not sure when exactly the patent was issued though.

And the reason AGD didn't just pay the royalties is because they are AGD, they don't do sissy **** like pay off the bullies, same reason AKA didn't pay.

And I doubt anyone besides those involved know if AGD/Tom are getting paid anything by Tib or Tippman.


I didn't think of it that way. I just thought: man it would be great if AGD started coming out with new automags. I know there's alot of custom work you can have done, but you can't get much advertising work done that way.

I mean, I hate those tards at SP just as much as anyone, but I hate seeing AGD grind to a halt. I got into mags because they are the best damn marker's out there. After reading TK's post about the overnight air compressor, I got to thinking that it would be awesome if AGD started releasing new innovative products again. I mean don't get me wrong, the xvalve & level 10 is some pretty innovative shiz, but I can only imagine what would have been the next leap made by AGD if the whole lawsuit debacle hadn't occured.

[MKing]

I too wish this would in some way inspire AGD to release a new emag (or just sell new lowers) but the chances of that are pretty much zero.
The phenom though does look like an excellent marker and I am glad that a solid company like Tippmann is taking the design forward.
If nothing else, this gives us mag owners a nice conversation point with Tippmann owners. We can show them the history of where their gun cam from.

[Frizzle Fry]

As far as i know, and can find on the interwebs, patents last for 17 years, and the first mags came out in 1990 or so, i am not sure when exactly the patent was issued though.

I believe the first "automag" was the Panther (licensed by Tom to another company) in 1987 but it didn't go into full production... The "Automag" as we know it was released in 1989 and was common on fields (at least here in New England) within just a bit more than a year.

[WickedKlown2]

Garbage... looks cheap and Feels Cheap. Reminds me of a Stingray that goes full auto... lmao :headbang:

Not to sound mean or to start a flame fest but,,, where and when did you fire/handle the new x7 Phenom ??? They have not yet been released except to a few Teams (4 that I know of) and won't be available till the first week in Dec. 2009... I am just wondering what you base your comments off of...

And for anyone coming to AO South I will have one of the new x7 Phenoms with me that my Team helped to test out,,, and anyone there is more than welcome to give it a test drive if they wish... :) :cheers:


WK2

[Frizzle Fry]

Not to sound mean or to start a flame fest but,,, where and when did you fire/handle the new x7 Phenom ??? They have not yet been released except to a few Teams (4 that I know of) and won't be available till the first week in Dec. 2009... I am just wondering what you base your comments off of...

I handled and fired one at Boston Paintball today... I have to say I was dissapointed as well. I'm not sure that they've only been released to teams since I know a few people who have one, though not for personal markers. I have to say it was too light for its size, trigger was WEIRD and frankly it didn't feel like something I'd ever consider playing with.

[WickedKlown2]

I handled and fired one at Boston Paintball today... I have to say I was dissapointed as well. I'm not sure that they've only been released to teams since I know a few people who have one, though not for personal markers. I have to say it was too light for its size, trigger was WEIRD and frankly it didn't feel like something I'd ever consider playing with.

Frizzle Fry,,,

I can go with your comments on this new marker because you actually state that you fired/held it and gave a discription as to why you didn't like it... The person I asked the question to did not qualify his statement and just used a broad statement... I am just trying to gather information be it good or bad of what players think of it,,, and how it can be improved... I am a die hard mag/aka owner and in no way a fan boy of any one marker manufacturer ...

Thank You for your answer Frizzle and I will make sure that information gets passed along (I dont use names in my report) to help make improvements... :)

WK2

[MagsRgreat]

I handled and fired one at Boston Paintball today... I have to say I was dissapointed as well. I'm not sure that they've only been released to teams since I know a few people who have one, though not for personal markers. I have to say it was too light for its size, trigger was WEIRD and frankly it didn't feel like something I'd ever consider playing with.



"too light for its size, the trigger was WEIRD"

So it was lighter than it looked & the trigger didn't feel like you thought it would?

Weird how?

[Frizzle Fry]

Frizzle Fry,,,

I can go with your comments on this new marker because you actually state that you fired/held it and gave a discription as to why you didn't like it... The person I asked the question to did not qualify his statement and just used a broad statement... I am just trying to gather information be it good or bad of what players think of it,,, and how it can be improved... I am a die hard mag/aka owner and in no way a fan boy of any one marker manufacturer ...

Thank You for your answer Frizzle and I will make sure that information gets passed along (I dont use names in my report) to help make improvements... :)

WK2

Thanks.

I didn't hate it, I just didn't like the body very much. It was light for its size, and felt too bulky and plasticky. I like "big" markers and I understand the milsim appeal, but I didn't like the boxy-ness of the X7 to begin with and the Phenom model (while not exactly the same as an traditional X7) makes an M4 or G3 feel tiny by comparison.


In response to MagsRGreat
I also didn't like the trigger feeling. It wasn't as crisp as an emag and had the slightly mushy feeling I've always associated with E-spyders or other electronic Tippmanns. That said, the fire selector was brilliant and I'm praying that they don't lose the legal battle with HK and end up using a different system...


I should rephrase to say that if it wasn't in an X-7 style body I'd probably buy one. The trigger issue is something for me to work out; plenty of people will be very satisfied with what's in there, and I set a much higher standard than most do by comparing immediately to the emag.

[00Buckshot]

Having both an E-Tac and '03 Viking - you just can't compare higher end electros to a Phenom. It really isn't fair.

I do actually agree with you some about the trigger. It has a different feel to it, but I haven't tried adjusting it either. It is, however, a marked improvement over the standard X7, A5 and 98C - which all had a really long, hard pulls; that is until you toyed with the spring, polished it or dropped in an after market one from APE or say RI. Comparing it to other markers in it's class though, like the TM-15 or TM-7, SP-1.... I feel that it has a better pull. That's just me.

You can also see this as a huge transition for Tippmann and their valve systems. I'm sure we'll see new markers and styles being made to use this valve system. I mean hell.. look how long their old system has lasted.

[Bagheera]

I have to agree with Frizzle Fry on this one regarding the body. If the body wasn't so flippin' huge I'd definitely buy one. As it stands now, my next purchase is going to be a Tiberius, my first non-Mag purchase, EVER.

[Frizzle Fry]

Having both an E-Tac and '03 Viking - you just can't compare higher end electros to a Phenom. It really isn't fair.

I do actually agree with you some about the trigger. It has a different feel to it, but I haven't tried adjusting it either. It is, however, a marked improvement over the standard X7, A5 and 98C - which all had a really long, hard pulls; that is until you toyed with the spring, polished it or dropped in an after market one from APE or say RI. Comparing it to other markers in it's class though, like the TM-15 or TM-7, SP-1.... I feel that it has a better pull. That's just me.


I agree on some level; with their electro upgrades and frames in the past Tippmann hasn't had the need to deal with precision triggers.

While the Phenom isn't meant to be up there with Egos and DMs of the world, at an MSRP of $450 with an average price of $399 it should have had something more stable. These days there aren't just "high-end" and "low-end" when it comes to electronic markers... We've got "cheap crap" ($1-$75) to "low end" ($75-$250) to "mid range" ($250-$450) to "high end" ($475-$750) and then a plethora of "super-guns" that run anywhere from $800 to $1600!

The "$300 and under" electro market isn't just a bunch of E-Spyders anymore... With the Mini, the SLG, the G3 and PMR you get a trigger system that's much easier to tune (from what I could see; I didn't give the marker a full tear-down) and feels better out of the box. I know it's a woodsball marker, but after test shooting the MTac, the BFG, electro'ed BTs and Tippmanns, and the crap SP is making, and the GI50, I feel like for the price of $450 a lot more could have been done.




You can also see this as a huge transition for Tippmann and their valve systems. I'm sure we'll see new markers and styles being made to use this valve system. I mean hell.. look how long their old system has lasted.

Can't argue with that; the Tippmann system is brilliant and will stand the test of time. I loved the "carbine" generations and the m98, the m98c brought some much needed upgradability to the system, and then the A5 fixed the field-strip issue that earlier Tippmanns witha clamshell design had. I just never jumped on the X7 band wagon because it felt HUGE and awkward and had no pronounced advantages over older models.

[00Buckshot]

One of the survey questions that Tippmann had asked us throughout the R&D phase of the Phenom was whether it was important to us if was manufactured in the US. My team, being composed mostly of Vets, of course answered yes.

That being said, if you sent this off shore to be manufactured, I'd bet the price would be in be a lot less. Does this make you feel better about spending $450 on a marker? ..that's up to any of you. I'm not justifying the cost or what you get for your hard earned dollars... I'm also not trying to sell you on the Phenom, but I'd though I add that bit of information.

[Newt]

One of the survey questions that Tippmann had asked us throughout the R&D phase of the Phenom was whether it was important to us if was manufactured in the US. My team, being composed mostly of Vets, of course answered yes.

That being said, if you sent this off shore to be manufactured, I'd bet the price would be in be a lot less. Does this make you feel better about spending $450 on a marker? ..that's up to any of you. I'm not justifying the cost or what you get for your hard earned dollars... I'm also not trying to sell you on the Phenom, but I'd though I add that bit of information.
Wouldn't bother me a bit.

Isolation economics kill jobs, raise prices, take money out of the consumer's pocket (removing freedom of choices) and destroy companies and economies. That's about the most anti-American thing I can think of.

That thinking doesn't do favors for anyone. In Jonesville, they have a widgit factory. Franksville has a lot of software engineers. Does it really make sense for the Frankville software engineers to hand-make much needed widgits while the Jonesville widgit-makers work out production with an abacus? Same thing here. We supply them currency, they supply us with parts. Valuable American time is freed up, engineering jobs, prototyping jobs, advertising jobs, and plenty more are created, money is freed up, and the customer has more cash in his pocket. The Chinese or whoever has the cheap manufacturing labor at the moment also take one step further to being a more modern country.

[Frizzle Fry]

The Chinese or whoever has the cheap manufacturing labor at the moment also take one step further to being a more modern country.

Made in the US is a good thing, but the issue here is NOT being made in China.

Clintons trade agreement with China was a crock of... something... His selling point was that we would manufacture things that the billions of Chinese people would purchase. Unfortunately in the PRC there aren't any copyright laws so counterfeiting is a huge problem. Also there are no government restrictions concerning pollution or hazardous materials; I'm not a tree-hugger but I don't like the idea of dumping oil in the ocean or having extreme lead content in anything other than maybe a lead weight.

On the humanitarian side, there's also no wage-control so people get paid little to nothing (not just when compared to other economies, but in general), add to that the serious government issues that were finally brought to light (at least to the masses) following last years Olympic Games and you've got a serious issue.

Remember back before the "Politically Correct" era when it was OK to acknowledge the fact that most of the time "Made in China" means junk?




Anyway, more to the point, yes there is a lot of outsourcing in paintball and that can effect prices, but I'm a guy who owns mostly Automags, Autocockers, Sheridans, Palmers pieces, Tippmanns, and other markers made in the US. I set my standard based first and foremost how something performs, then what it's made of (less plastic is better), then where it's made. For some reason "Made in the US out of Metal" tends to perform better in every catergory but cost :cool:

[CatoRockwell]

I'm a proponent of free trade, but our deal with china along with other countries is far from free trade. We tax the hell out of business owners here in the US, along with subsidies, wage control, and numerous other restrictions. It forces American businesses to compete unfairly with cheap foreign labor which experience none of these.

Point is, by all means lets have free trade and may the best product win! However, we need our government to get out of private business affairs in the US in order to allow our companies to compete.

[Frizzle Fry]

I'm a proponent of free trade, but our deal with china along with other countries is far from free trade. We tax the hell out of business owners here in the US, along with subsidies, wage control, and numerous other restrictions. It forces American businesses to compete unfairly with cheap foreign labor which experience none of these.

Point is, by all means lets have free trade and may the best product win! However, we need our government to get out of private business affairs in the US in order to allow our companies to compete.

Exactly my point.

I firmly believe that we should let anyone do business in the US, but that all countries planning to export to the US live up to standards to which US businesses are held. For example, we have laws against illegal dumping of toxic waste, and shouldn't import product made in factories where toxic dumping occurs. We also have strict laws regulating products containing lead, whereas Chinese importers bring thousands of lead-containing childrens toys every day. Those are reasonable expectations that stem from health concerns, but go ignored (I'm guessing) because of our enormous debt to the joke that passes as the Chinese government.

[Oddux]

Found a review of the X7 including pictures of the marker and valve broken down here (http://www.network54.com/Forum/9013/message/1256941619/Under+the+hood+of+the+new+X7)

[CatoRockwell]

I wonder if anyone here could use the method the x7 uses to feed the cyclone feed on a automag?

[Newt]

From what I understand of it, they've designed their valve with that in mind. I don't doubt it's possible, but it would take some serious work.