Just finished my pneumag - boy, do I hate this thing.

[Shirow]

So, I spent the last few weeks figuring out exactly how I was going to build my pneumag, trying to make decisions about where to place the LPR, which frame to use and all that jazz.

After MUCH (and I mean MUCH) deliberation, I threw down the $245 for an M90 so I could sleeper it, bought a Cheater with a micro rock, got a modded CP ASA, had some Luke's panels modded to fit the micro rock - I went all out.

Today I rushed home to find my Cheater in the mailbox. Very excited, I skipped dinner to get it setup. It dropped into the M90 just fine, screwed it in and went to town.

Well, first of all, it didn't seem quite right. I tried to walk it, fairly slowly, kept chuffing like a mofo. I thought, you know, maybe the rod is a little far from the trigger. So I installed a trigger stop at the top, made it a little shorter. Well, I guess I made it too short cuz now it vents nonstop unless I pull the trigger away from the rod. Backed out the stop a bit, it seemed OK. Fanned it, shot fine, but not really any faster than I can fan a non-pneued trigger. So I figured it's time to try walking it again.

Chuff chuff chuff bang chuff chuff bang. WTF. Still short stroking I guess. Tried slowing down. Chuff chuff chuff chuff bang chuff chuff. WTF! Tried fanning it again, pulling it slowly with one finger to make sure it's working right. Yup, it's working..

To make a long story short, I burned through about 4k PSI trying to walk this thing and it chuffed until it could chuff no more. I'd heard it took some practice to be able to walk a pneumag - well, honestly, I don't think there's enough practice in the world for me.

All the pieces work great.. the modded ASA is perfect, the micro rock was consistent, the Cheater worked exactly as advertised but my fingers just couldn't get it to work how I wanted. The pull was pretty light, pretty impressive... but unless I can walk this thing, I gain absolutely nothing.. I can't fan it any faster like this than I can stock mech so it does me no good.

So, unless I'm missing something really major I guess pretty soon I'll be throwing a Cheater, Micro Rock and modded CP ASA onto the BST forum.

Pretty sad considering I spent so much time planning this and I seem to be the only one with these problems (especially since I've seen people rocking pneumags walking 'em) but man... what a freakin disappointment.

SIGH.

[Stayhuge]

A couple of things that you should try. First make sure that you have a little gap between the sear and the cheater piston. I think mine was about 1/16th but even that could be a little further I think. Second, try turning the LPR up another 1/4 of a turn or so. I found that mine needed a little more pressure to get it to walk. Even then, I find my fingers chuff a little. Third, do you have a ULT? If so, maybe try to set it to be a little more snappier. Mine was a little snappy before I installed the cheater. That could help it reset a little faster.

Hope that helps. If not, post up a clear video and maybe one of us can see what is going wrong. Could be human error, but IMHO, it is probably just set a little off. I am no master of walking the trigger, and this thing was a piece of cake for me. Hope this helps, and good luck!!!

[Shirow]

A couple of things that you should try. First make sure that you have a little gap between the sear and the cheater piston. I think mine was about 1/16th but even that could be a little further I think. Second, try turning the LPR up another 1/4 of a turn or so. I found that mine needed a little more pressure to get it to walk. Even then, I find my fingers chuff a little. Third, do you have a ULT? If so, maybe try to set it to be a little more snappier. Mine was a little snappy before I installed the cheater. That could help it reset a little faster.

Hope that helps. If not, post up a clear video and maybe one of us can see what is going wrong. Could be human error, but IMHO, it is probably just set a little off. I am no master of walking the trigger, and this thing was a piece of cake for me. Hope this helps, and good luck!!!

How are you adjusting where the sear sits in relation to the ram?

[zondo]

How are you adjusting where the sear sits in relation to the ram?

You'll have to adjust the Cheater fore or aft in the frame other than where Zap pre-drilled holes. It's the same way if you had a Cyber kit with the ram.

[Shirow]

You'll have to adjust the Cheater fore or aft in the frame other than where Zap pre-drilled holes. It's the same way if you had a Cyber kit with the ram.

Figured, thanks

[Shirow]

Well, after talking to BigEvil a bit I think I'm gonna mess with it some more.. maybe there is something more I can do to get this thing working right.

Hopefully it is just something slightly off..

[zondo]

Figured, thanks

Did you see the reply where Loguzzzzz yelled at me? :D (J/K John)

[Shirow]

Did you see the reply where Loguzzzzz yelled at me? :D (J/K John)

Negative

[zondo]

Negative

Here ya go:


I explained this to zondo the day I met him, do not be disappointed about the pneumag preformance and don't blame your valve or the LPR for short stroking. Usually it is YOU!

In an electro there is this little thing called dwell. This is the time lapse where the board resets waiting for the next trigger pull. In a pneumag there is no board to help you with lazy fingers. Short stroking is most likely happening due to your fingers overlappping, not allowing the ram to travel back completely to rest postion. To verify this pull as fast as you can with one finger only. If you are short stroking then it could be your valve, the LPR or not enough clearance between the sear and the ram. This may keep the on/off and sear from re-setting. If the gun fires as fast as you pull the trigger with one finger then it is you. Walking a pneumag is someting that needs to be learned and practiced. Some can do it and some can't.

When setting the ram position on a pneumag I usaully leave 1/8" to 3/16" gap between the ram and the sear. This is to similuate or create dwell.

I also believe the problem that most are experiencing with the Cheater is exactly this. Zap sets these with almost zero clearance between the ram and the sear. I am also concerned about the plastic ram. Mag valves are relatively hard on things and I feel that the plastic ram will be the weak link in the Cheater. Only time will tell though.

But it sounds like you are on it already.

[Shirow]

Here ya go:



But it sounds like you are on it already.

Ahhh that post.. yeah, I had seen it before.

And yeah, I'm thinking it's a sear placement issue.. maybe.

When I have some air I'll mess with it some more.. I can't really move if any further forward with grinding down the rod though :\

[Smoothice]

If all else fails sell the cheater and get a cyberave kit. Don't give up on the pneumag experience all together :cheers:

[Shirow]

If all else fails sell the cheater and get a cyberave kit. Don't give up on the pneumag experience all together :cheers:

Alright, you have all convinced me to keep trying ;)

[drg]

:confused: Dwell has nothing to do with triggering

[chafnerjr]

:confused: Dwell has nothing to do with triggering
Technically no... but the shooter has to compensate for the pneu/mechanical setup... moving the ram will help tune the setup to the particular user. Same as dwell. It also effects the rate of fire It's the main reason why my wifes pneu is faster than mine... though mines plenty fast enough to dissuade me from moving my ram any closer to the sear..

[wimag]

that is whay it is called tinkering...you dont give up so soon if it does not work exactly the way you want right away. have some patience and stay with it.

[Enemy]

:confused: Dwell has nothing to do with triggering


in this example it does you see the dwell in an electro is how long the solenoid stays open the "dwell" in a pnuemag would be how long the trigger is held down keeping pressure on the on/off now with an electro no matter if you hold down the trigger the dwell stays the same in a mag the dwell stays as long as you hold the trigger down so if when you are walking you are getting overlap on your fingers the electro doesnt care as long as there is separate clicks on the switch with the mag the on/off short strokes causing a chuff..


also an issue i saw with some emags try switching levl 10 to the softest spring that should help unless you have an adjustable hpa then just crank up that pressure a bit more if the other suggestions fail to help

[Loguzzzzzz]

in this example it does you see the dwell in an electro is how long the solenoid stays open the "dwell" in a pnuemag would be how long the trigger is held down keeping pressure on the on/off now with an electro no matter if you hold down the trigger the dwell stays the same in a mag the dwell stays as long as you hold the trigger down so if when you are walking you are getting overlap on your fingers the electro doesnt care as long as there is separate clicks on the switch with the mag the on/off short strokes causing a chuff..


also an issue i saw with some emags try switching levl 10 to the softest spring that should help unless you have an adjustable hpa then just crank up that pressure a bit more if the other suggestions fail to help
THANK YOU!

This was my exact point.

Your other suggestions are also good advice. These can also help. Be sure you have a good HP tank and reg. The CP or the Crossfire fixed regs are good, they recharge fast and have good outpput pressure, 800 to 850 psi. These work well with pneumags.

[mostpeople]

Sounds like your lvl 10 is out of tune

[flyingpootang]

:confused: Dwell has nothing to do with triggering

If the piston is to close/touching the sear leg the piston will not have enough power to actuatue the sear leg. Try and flick your finger against another finger on the opposite hand with little to no gap, it's almost impossible. Now do the same thing with some space between your 2 fingers. Hurts right? You need to have a slight gap to allow the piston to gain some momentum and to hit with force.

[Tunaman]

And dont forget...the M90 was not designed for the cheater. I see a couple of issues with the angle of the trigger rod working with the cheater. Use the Cyber kit.

[Shirow]

And dont forget...the M90 was not designed for the cheater. I see a couple of issues with the angle of the trigger rod working with the cheater. Use the Cyber kit.

I would.. if I could ever get Cyberave to reply to my PMs :p

[zondo]

I would.. if I could ever get Cyberave to reply to my PMs :p

Did you sell your I-frame yet? Try your Cheater in there for giggles...

[Carnage reigns]

So, I spent the last few weeks figuring out exactly how I was going to build my pneumag, trying to make decisions about where to place the LPR, which frame to use and all that jazz.

After MUCH (and I mean MUCH) deliberation, I threw down the $245 for an M90 so I could sleeper it, bought a Cheater with a micro rock, got a modded CP ASA, had some Luke's panels modded to fit the micro rock - I went all out.

Today I rushed home to find my Cheater in the mailbox. Very excited, I skipped dinner to get it setup. It dropped into the M90 just fine, screwed it in and went to town.

Well, first of all, it didn't seem quite right. I tried to walk it, fairly slowly, kept chuffing like a mofo. I thought, you know, maybe the rod is a little far from the trigger. So I installed a trigger stop at the top, made it a little shorter. Well, I guess I made it too short cuz now it vents nonstop unless I pull the trigger away from the rod. Backed out the stop a bit, it seemed OK. Fanned it, shot fine, but not really any faster than I can fan a non-pneued trigger. So I figured it's time to try walking it again.

Chuff chuff chuff bang chuff chuff bang. WTF. Still short stroking I guess. Tried slowing down. Chuff chuff chuff chuff bang chuff chuff. WTF! Tried fanning it again, pulling it slowly with one finger to make sure it's working right. Yup, it's working..

To make a long story short, I burned through about 4k PSI trying to walk this thing and it chuffed until it could chuff no more. I'd heard it took some practice to be able to walk a pneumag - well, honestly, I don't think there's enough practice in the world for me.

All the pieces work great.. the modded ASA is perfect, the micro rock was consistent, the Cheater worked exactly as advertised but my fingers just couldn't get it to work how I wanted. The pull was pretty light, pretty impressive... but unless I can walk this thing, I gain absolutely nothing.. I can't fan it any faster like this than I can stock mech so it does me no good.

So, unless I'm missing something really major I guess pretty soon I'll be throwing a Cheater, Micro Rock and modded CP ASA onto the BST forum.

Pretty sad considering I spent so much time planning this and I seem to be the only one with these problems (especially since I've seen people rocking pneumags walking 'em) but man... what a freakin disappointment.

SIGH.

245 for the frame and the cheater or just the m-90?

[Shirow]

245 for the frame and the cheater or just the m-90?

Just the frame

[Shirow]

Did you sell your I-frame yet? Try your Cheater in there for giggles...

Yeah, it's gone already. I think I'm probably going to bug Cyberave again, see if I can get his kit.. I think the Cheater is a great design but it's kinda pointless in the M90.

[Loguzzzzzz]

I would.. if I could ever get Cyberave to reply to my PMs :p
If you want me to contact him I can, he and I talk fairly regularly.

Just PM me and let me know.

[AT&T]

hey Loguzzzz I am also trying to get a hold of cyberrave. he just doesn't come online to get his PM's

[Loguzzzzzz]

hey Loguzzzz I am also trying to get a hold of cyberrave. he just doesn't come online to get his PM's
He has been working like 16 hour days lately, I will let him know that his public is awaiting his response.

[ZapTheMad]

Something to consider that may, or may not, apply here. First, my own personal gun shoots pretty freakin' awesome! I still have problems walking the trigger with consistency but I can put out good strings of "burst fire". It's not so much short stroking. It's not letting up on the trigger between shots because I'm trying to hard. Been getting lots of practice testing all these cheaters so I need to get out and play!

For your gun, it may just be a matter of breaking in. I bought my gun 5 or 6 years ago and rebuilt the valve right away. It didn't really start shooting all that well until the o-rings were well used. I'm in some of those Zak Vetter vids shooting 32 BPS and couldn't get it to "rapid fire" beyond a few shots until after a couple cases of paint. Wore out a sear and bolt hammering it like that too. Once things got broke in it was pretty easy. I have never replaced an o-ring since the rebuild and it always shoots smooth as silk. The only adjustments I have made were to the level 10 shims when it started leaking after replacing the bolt. I would say I have 20-25 cases of paint on it and expect it to last another 50-100 cases before a rebuild. I have an X-valve and it shoots well with ULT trigger. Not sure why some guys need to use an RT trigger pin. I'm guessing it just a matter of preference and I like mine ultra light.

I have a pretty fresh rebuilt Classic Valve and it's still fairly stiff. My Cheaters seem a bit sluggish with the Classic and I think it's just the new o-rings. I have a feeling it will loosen up after more use. Me and my bro are going to try and play a bunch this year so it will definitely get some shooting time.

Like the guys said, don't give up!

[Shirow]

Something to consider that may, or may not, apply here. First, my own personal gun shoots pretty freakin' awesome! I still have problems walking the trigger with consistency but I can put out good strings of "burst fire". It's not so much short stroking. It's not letting up on the trigger between shots because I'm trying to hard. Been getting lots of practice testing all these cheaters so I need to get out and play!

For your gun, it may just be a matter of breaking in. I bought my gun 5 or 6 years ago and rebuilt the valve right away. It didn't really start shooting all that well until the o-rings were well used. I'm in some of those Zak Vetter vids shooting 32 BPS and couldn't get it to "rapid fire" beyond a few shots until after a couple cases of paint. Wore out a sear and bolt hammering it like that too. Once things got broke in it was pretty easy. I have never replaced an o-ring since the rebuild and it always shoots smooth as silk. The only adjustments I have made were to the level 10 shims when it started leaking after replacing the bolt. I would say I have 20-25 cases of paint on it and expect it to last another 50-100 cases before a rebuild. I have an X-valve and it shoots well with ULT trigger. Not sure why some guys need to use an RT trigger pin. I'm guessing it just a matter of preference and I like mine ultra light.

I have a pretty fresh rebuilt Classic Valve and it's still fairly stiff. My Cheaters seem a bit sluggish with the Classic and I think it's just the new o-rings. I have a feeling it will loosen up after more use. Me and my bro are going to try and play a bunch this year so it will definitely get some shooting time.

Like the guys said, don't give up!

Thanks for the input Zap. I think a number of factors are at play here and you may be right about the o-rings as well..

I don't think the Cheater is at fault here per se, it's just my invalid expectations and now I'm reluctant to start chopping it up since it's such a perfect little box :)

[ta2maki]

Good to hear to you haven't given up. If it makes you feel any better, my pneumag project is coming up on 5 years and about $1000

[Shirow]

Just trying to get a Cyberave kit now.

[Mongoose]

Just trying to get a Cyberave kit now.

Send me your entire gun and i will straighten it all out for you....i have a kit sitting right here im not using!

[Shirow]

Send me your entire gun and i will straighten it all out for you....i have a kit sitting right here im not using!

As always, you rock.