low-pressure

[mag]

is there anyway at all or anything agd can do to mmags low pressure? this would be awsome if its possible

[Muzikman]

The operating preassure of a mag is already pretty low.

[FeelTheRT]

not with a Mag you can't. Most guns have valves that are opened by a hammer hitting it. Since all the Automag really is is just one reg... you can't do much unless you make the air chamber larger. But that's not the correct way of doing LP and will make the gun an even more gas hog.

[LaW]

Actually somewhere it said the mag was one of the lowest operating pressured guns because the last amount of air is like 60psi or something? :)

[covadsucks]

"AGD uses the precise contour of the power tube tip to release air in a controlled manner behind the ball to limit peak pressures to around 60-80 psi.." AGD -from a Historical Posting. Gotta love the Forum.

[LaW]

Thanks for posting that, it was exactly what i was looking for :)

[sniper1rfa]

you could technically go as low as something like 25 psi (how much it takes to get the ball to 300 fps) ala lunacy.

[magic55]

i think he means low pressure like on a freeflow or something where it will not chop a ball cause it just operates so low. i don't know what taht 60 psi thing is but my mag must not have that cause i chopped all the time.

[LaW]

chopping is not reliant on pressure... a low pressure gun will not really be any easier on a paintball then lets say some higher pressure guns.

[magic55]

i disagree. my matrix opperates at about 80psi so it is a low pressure gun and it doesn't ever chop even when i outshoot the hopper. my rtpro isn't a low pressure gun and it is constantly chopping if the hopper doesn't keep up with it or if the ball just isn't in the chamber all the way . the matrix doesn't chop because the low pressure that the bolt opperates at keeps it from blowing right through the ball and instead bounces off of it. the mag will just slice right through the ball.

[FooTemps]

um... one problem with that, the blow forward design of a mag will always chop the ball... How could the bolt bounce off the ball? Blowbacks can do this because the don't go far enough across the breach! The blow forward goes all the way across...

[LaW]

Originally posted by magic55
i disagree. my matrix opperates at about 80psi so it is a low pressure gun and it doesn't ever chop even when i outshoot the hopper. my rtpro isn't a low pressure gun and it is constantly chopping if the hopper doesn't keep up with it or if the ball just isn't in the chamber all the way . the matrix doesn't chop because the low pressure that the bolt opperates at keeps it from blowing right through the ball and instead bounces off of it. the mag will just slice right through the ball.

The hopper not keeping up and the ball not getting into the chamber enough has nothing to do with the operating pressure of the marker. Your crazy :D

[unseenunheard]

i always looked at chopping as sort of a hopper issue.
lower presure might make it easier on brittle paint, i'm sure their is a way to lower the pressure. i would think by enlarging the air chamber you should lower the pressure by a lil' bit but i doubt it would be a significant amount. although i am probably wrong

[LaW]

Smart parts tried this already lowering it by like 40 psi and actually hurting performance. As put before the air distributed out the bolt is only 60psi... that's pretty low guys... the actual valve at start regulates it at 375 or whatever but what comes out is not that much. I don't think it's making a difference (insignificant at that) His chopping is a hopper issue. of course your going to break paint if only half of it is in the breech..... i'm sorry it's just not a solid argument

[unseenunheard]

i keep seeing people post that the mag regulates the pressure in the valve down to 375 in the chamber before firing but my minimag was at 525psi shooting 280fps, i gutted the internal reg and replaced with an external regulator with a gauge, this is how i know it used 525psi.
**added on edit** i assume smart parts tried it with a classic valve and this is why they got shootdown, but what if someone did it with a retro valve. i could live with having shootdown at say 18-20bps, and be gentler on paint. just a thought

[LaW]

It is regulated down to 375 or so I don't know about that 500psi but the fact still remains that "AGD uses the precise contour of the power tube tip to release air in a controlled manner behind the ball to limit peak pressures to around 60-80 psi.." AGD


So the actual amount of pressure coming out of the power tube at the ball is 60-80psi... I think thats pretty low pressure if you ask me :) The fact that the chamber is using a higher pressure I believe is insignificant when you look at the actual pressure being released.

[unseenunheard]

the 60-80 psi, yeh that is low but it does take a lil more than 375 to fill the chamber enough to shoot the ball at 280fps. i know it will go down in psi quite fast because their isn't a significant volume of air stored in the chamber upon release, .55ci i believe.:cool:

[LaW]

I want to hear an answer from magic55 because his situation is completely hopper related and his argument then is crap, I want to hear him rework it

[magic55]

the hopper thing was just an example. i used that cause thats how most people chop. this thread is originally about lowering the pressure of a mag and i think he is meaning so it doesn't chop. like i said my matrix bolt opperates at about 80psi and you can stick your finger down into the feed neck and in front of the bolt and the bold will just bounce off of your finger, its the same when a ball is not fed all the way. because its lowpressure it doesn't chop it. if i took off the trinity reg i have on it and stuck my finger down in would probably hurt a bit and maybe cut my finger. once for a little experiment when i first got my gun i stuck a shrimp down in front of the bolt and fired about ten shots on it and it barely even left a mark. i know thats not about a mag but what i'm trying to say is that if a mag opperated that low or lower you wouldn't have problems with chopping. someone said something about the bolt not going all the way forward.... i have not idea what they're talking about cause it does. basically i'm saying that the lowpressure prevents my matrix from chopping as opposed to my mag which just rips right through the ball.

[LaW]

Chopping is a hopper issue. Who cares about chopping, That isn't even the point, we are talking about breaking paint in the breech......

[Smokee_2_7]

However, in the event that somthing goes wrong with the feed system (it happens relativly often. . .) its good to know that, IF a ball is only half way in the breach (whether it be from user error, or hopper/feeding issues) that the gun's bolt Wont slice through the ball. This is the way my cocker was. That was one of my favoritew things about that gun. I shortstroked the crap out of it when i first got it, but i never chopped a ball. It just simply jammed, leaving the back block about halfway. Trust me, giving a little tug on the backblock to let the ball fall in is a WHOLE lot faster and eaiser than having to squeege and clean a ton when a chop occurs.

SO, in that aspect, I think that the chopping issue is very valid. TRUE, if everything is set up right it's not an issue, but- - its also true that sometimes things go wrong, and misfeeds happen. Its kinda nice to have that redundancy to maintain a clean operation of the gun.



just my 2 cents.

Carl

[hitech]

I hope this helps clear up things.

Chopping
The bolt in an automag moves forward using the pressure in the chamber (approx. 400 psi, give or take). That is enough pressure to slice a paintball in half. If that pressure were lower, the bolt would move slower, giving the paintball more of a chance to be knocked out of the way (either back up into the feed tube, or into the breech) and not get chopped. If the pressure were low enough the bolt could stop (jam) and not break the paintball.

*Added on edit* If the pressure (that moves the bolt forward) where lower it would also have a greater change of further slowing the bolt when pinching a paintball, thus giving the paintball even more time to get out of the way.

Acceleration/Impact Breaks - Chambering
The faster the bolt moves forward the faster the paintball is accelerated. The faster the acceleration the more likely the paintball will break from this acceleration. If the paintball is not in contact with the bold when the marker is fired it gains momentum before impacting the paintball. The faster the bolt moves, the higher this impact will be and the greater the chance of breaking the paintball.

Acceleration Breaks - Shooting
The peak pressure that fires the paintball is approx. 60 psi. If this pressure were high enough the paintball would accelerate too fast and would break. This pressure (60 psi in the automag) is fairly low and shouldn't accelerate the paintball fast enough to break it, IMO (I'm never humble).


The automag cycles the bolt fast. It needs to in order to allow a high ROF. The faster it cycles, the longer the bolt is open and the longer a paintball has to drop into position to be chambered correctly.

Hope this helps.

[magic55]

we are talking about breaking paint in the breech......
No kidding thats what i'm saying and you aren't making any sense. plain and simply if the mag had a lower pressure like a matrix or freeflow cocker or something it wouldn't break paint in the breech. take your mag and see if you can stick your finger in the breech and fire the bolt against it several times without getting hurt... its not gonna happen cause the bolt is at to high of a pressure compared to the other two guns i listed. you really aren't making sense you've said two completely opposite things.


Chopping is a hopper issue. Who cares about chopping, That isn't even the point, we are talking about breaking paint in the breech......

is it just me or is chopping when a ball breaks in the breech....

[hitech]

Originally posted by magic55
is it just me or is chopping when a ball breaks in the breech....

What "most" people mean by chopping is the bolt cutting/smashing the paintball against the edge of the feed tube. If the paintball doesn't hit against the feed tube, then "most" people would not call it a chop. At least, I assume it's most. :)

[magic55]

whatever people think of chopping as, all i'm saying is that lowpressure guns are better on paint than higher pressure guns. i never have chops with my matrix. i always had chops with my mag. but for whatever reason i had chops if it was low enough pressure it wouldn't happen.
some people get chops from shortstroking a mag... a cocker can also be shortstroked but the freeflow for example has low enough pressure where it will not chop.

[HyperSnyper]

I posted here before, wonder why it didnt go through...

Oh well...

The operating pressure of the Mag is 350-450 psi. I know because I have my Reg gutted with a Stabilizer bottomline regulating my entire system. It is at about 375 psi at 285 fps. Just because its 375 psi, doesnt mean 375 psi is hitting the ball. 375 psi is used to force the bolt forward, when the sear is released. This force is reduced progressively as the bolt spring's tension gives an opposing force. In addition, the bolt is moving forward, opeing up more volume for the gas, this will also help lower the forward force of the bolt. I dont know the exact figures, but Im sure these factors must be able to drop the force in the bolt significantly. With the increase volume comes lower pressure being exposed to the ball.

I knew the pressure was dropped, I even heard it was dropped in half, but I never knew it was only 60 psi hitting the ball. OMG!

Aaron at AKALMP told me over the phone long ago that he had a 300 psi operating Mag. He said he had the earlier classic valve where the powertube actually unscrews, then he could increase the volume of the Air chamber. Told me he could get it down to a 250 psi operating pressure, but didnt want to.
Must shootdown like a Bit*h

-Hyper

[hitech]

Originally posted by magic55
all i'm saying is that lowpressure guns are better on paint than higher pressure guns...

Yes, that is true. Did you read my explaination above? What did you think? Did it make sense?

[HyperSnyper]

As for the chopping issue, in theory the Superbolt takes care of that.

By reducing the weight of the bolt, the bolt can move forward and backward faster as opposed to a heavier stainless one. Since the lightened bolt will cycle faster, then there will be more "bolt open" time for the ball to drop.

I did have a thread reguarding the Superbolts increased acceleratin and its potential advers effectse on the ball, but it ended up insignificant, especially since they are being shipped with foamies standard now.

-Hyper

[magic55]

this thread was about lowering the pressure of a mag so it woudn't chop (whatever chopping is to people). now it seems that its focusing on how the mag is lowpressure at about 60psi. if thats the case than we wouldn't be chopping. maybe something else on a mag is opperating at that but it isn't the bolt. if the bolt moved with 60psi it wouldn't chop... plain and simple, but it doesn't the bolt has much more force behind it and thats why it chops.

The bolt in an automag moves forward using the pressure in the chamber (approx. 400 psi, give or take). That is enough pressure to slice a paintball in half. If that pressure were lower, the bolt would move slower, giving the paintball more of a chance to be knocked out of the way
the pressure that moves the bolt forward on my gun is around 80psi give or take and it doesn't move slow at all. it will cycle close to 17bps. its not cause of the bolt moving slower its because there isn't alot of force (pressure) behind the bolt to shove it through the ball and cause a chop.

[Muzikman]

Originally posted by magic55

No kidding thats what i'm saying and you aren't making any sense. plain and simply if the mag had a lower pressure like a matrix or freeflow cocker or something it wouldn't break paint in the breech. take your mag and see if you can stick your finger in the breech and fire the bolt against it several times without getting hurt... its not gonna happen cause the bolt is at to high of a pressure compared to the other two guns i listed. you really aren't making sense you've said two completely opposite things.



is it just me or is chopping when a ball breaks in the breech....



Chopping is when the ball is cought between the feed tube and the bolt. Yes, a LP cocker will not chop a ball because it is a closed bolt gun, the bolt moves forward with less preassure which chambers the ball. The ball is then fired on the next trigger pull by a burst of air. This less preassure is even lower than 60psi. It does not take alot of preassure to operate a ram. The mag is a blow forward open bolt gun. The bolt is being moved by the same air that the ball is being projected with. You would NEVER beable to get any blow forward gun to run at a low enough preassure to just pinch a ball.

Now...if a cocker uses 80PSI to project the ball and a Mag uses 80PSI to project a ball, whats the difference. Most people do not break paint in the breech, they break paint in the feed tube (chopping) or down the barrel (bad paint to barrel match).

I hope makes sense since I wrote it pretty quick and do not have time to read over it.

[HyperSnyper]

If this thread is about chopping, then we shouldnt be talking about pressures. Pressures dont chop, chopping is an issure related to the Loader and the feedsysytem. The Superbolt is another factor since in theory it creates more "bolt open time".

-Hyper

[HyperSnyper]

Originally posted by magic55

No kidding thats what i'm saying and you aren't making any sense. plain and simply if the mag had a lower pressure like a matrix or freeflow cocker or something it wouldn't break paint in the breech. take your mag and see if you can stick your finger in the breech and fire the bolt against it several times without getting hurt... its not gonna happen cause the bolt is at to high of a pressure compared to the other two guns i listed. you really aren't making sense you've said two completely opposite things.


Cockers are supposed be be "soft" on paint. Why dont you try and stick your finger in a COcker and pull the trigger... LoL.

-Hyper

[magic55]

i wouldn't in a regular cocker but in a freeflow i would. i love the feeling of a nice fresh bolt against my finger;)

[Nitroduck]

Ok......I need to show some people here something.

Opperating pressure and pressure on the ball are 2 different things....

Lets take a Mag.....

400psi Input Pressure......Yet 80psi hits ball.

How much force is exerted to force the mainspring to cycle? It isnt 80psi....After all, if it were 80psi, the gun wouldn't need 400psi to opperate.....Most of that pressure is used to cycle the bolt back/forth and the remainder is used to actually force the ball out.

Now........Bad part is with Mags (this is from my experiances), the Mag uses a much higher pressure to put the ball into the breach.....After all, the 400psi that is used to cycle the bolt forward hits the ball with a higher pressure than 80psi...Now, if say a paintball is halfway into the breach, and the gun fires, it will have a higher probability of cutting the paintball versus.....Lets say a Cocker, which uses a regulator specifically designed to cycle the bolt.

Want an example? Take a chop stick and put it into the feed tube of a Automag, and pull trigger. More than likely, it will cut the chopstick in half. Take a cocker, and do the same thing....It will not chop the chopstick in half....Now, that can be said for a paintball as well....Can a insane lower pressure be attained for a Mag so it wont chop? Maybe....I wonder why AGD hasnt tried (or atleast explained what results were) of using a softer mainspring.

Unfortunately, to make the Mag lower pressure (as far as I can tell), your going to have to tottally redesign the Mag......And I dont think that'll happen.....Its kinda like changing the design of the car from gas to hydrogen......

[hitech]

Originally posted by magic55
the pressure that moves the bolt forward on my gun is around 80psi give or take... its because there isn't alot of force (pressure) behind the bolt to shove it through the ball and cause a chop.

My stroker's bolt uses about 40 psi to move the bolt. It will chop a paintball if it isn't loaded properly. I don't know why your matrix doesn't chop. Maybe the cross sectional area of the "ram" that is moving the bolt forward is small. I don't know, esp. since I don't know anything about a matrix.

[HyperSnyper]

Originally posted by Nitroduck


Want an example? Take a chop stick and put it into the feed tube of a Automag, and pull trigger. More than likely, it will cut the chopstick in half. Take a cocker, and do the same thing....It will not chop the chopstick in half....Now, that can be said for a paintball as well....Can a insane lower pressure be attained for a Mag so it wont chop? Maybe....I wonder why AGD hasnt tried (or atleast explained what results were) of using a softer mainspring.



Hmmm...

I think a paintball is a little more brittle than a chop stick. Heres a better test, try putting a paintball half way into the breach then pull the trigger. Will the paint chop in half?

Hmmm... someone's gotta try this to confirm, but Im pretty sure that it WILL chop.

Why spend $1K on a FreeFlow, when you can just spend $100 on a HALO and use whatever gun you want?

-Hyper

[magic55]

i used a boiled shrimp once and it didn't do anything so i use my finger then a ball and you can fire the bolt on the ball several times and it won't chop depending how brittle the paint is.

[Butterfingers]

Your gun will only feed when the bolt is out of the way of the flow of paintballs.

Faster bolts means more open bolt times which equals faster feeding. Low pressure bolts have the disadvantage of cycling slower leaving lower open bolt times.

Although your gun may not chop there will be an increased probability of dud shots from half fed paintballs that a faster cycling gun will already have fully chambered.

A free flow will never be able to feed paint at 18 BPS like in the e-mag halo videos because at that ROF the bolt isn't open long enough to even force a paintball into the breach. If you have a chance to check out the racegun mod on a freeflow you have to jack that pnumatic pressure up to make it feed at 12 bps. Anything faster is nearly impossible to feed, even with a warp feed.

Try making the matrix fire off 18 bps w/halo with no skipped shots. It wont happen.

With the advent of new feed systems chopping is a problem of the past. 6 cases on my e-mag/warp not 1 chop yet (knock on wood). Why passively prevent feed problems when it can easily be actively prevented.

[magic55]

i'm getting a halo soon then i'll get a bolt kit and full auto board and i'll let you know if it works. if it does that will be awesome. i think it will cause it is very fast and with the halo it shouldn't have a problem

[HyperSnyper]

The way I see it, the "Mag are blenders and chop more than any other gun" statement is just as false as "Closed bolt makes you shoot farther and flatter".

The feeding system seems to be the core factor in the chopping. Go to PaintballCity's forums and check out the other guns. Angels are having a helluvah lotta probs with their chopping. There are some that are even considering selling their guns for another one. Same stuff goes on here. Same stuff goes on in the Spyder forums, Piranha, etc. Moral of the story... ALL guns will have problems, its just a matter of time til a solution is found, then everyone can be happy with the gun they have =).

-Hyper

[steveg]

I have read some were on this forum that a force of less
than 10lbs on the bolt will not break a miss fed ball

the force on any mag bolt when cocked is about 18~20 lbs
(remember the bolt is a piston until it travels far enough
to release the air)

This force is going to break any miss fed ball

Markers like the cocker,matrix,excalibur,angel,etc all
have bolts operated by a piston (ram). by design or
as an addon the ram pressure is regulated separately from
the propelling pressure.

If you can turn the ram operating force down to less than
10lbs. the bolt will hit the ball, stop, and retract.

The real issue is feeding the ball successfully.

If the mag feeds cleanly it won't chop, if it doesn't,
the ball doesn't have a chance.


just thought that I'd add this
http://forums.paintballcity.com/showthread.php?threadid=211070

the halo guy's are experiencing that the maximum sustained (full auto ) feed speed for a vertical feed
is about 13bps and about 18bps for powerfeed

[magic55]

i think this thread is getting a little off track. Mag just wanted to know if there was anyway to lower the pressure of his mag to make it so it doesn't chop. i think we can all agree that the answer is NO. if you don't want to chop get a faster hopper and an electric frame so you can't short stroke.

[HyperSnyper]

AMEN BROTHER =)

-Hyper

[hitech]

Originally posted by magic55
i think this thread is getting a little off track.

Yes it is. I found the off track stuff a "good read". :D

[sniper1rfa]

we are all forgetting the fact of piston diameter. if the piston diameter is 1/8 in (cocker ram)then the piston area is .012 in squared. area times pressure determines the force of a piston. so say your cocker ram is operating at 40 psi, it is giving 40*.012 or .48 units of force. now lets say the diameter of a mag power tube is 1/4 in. at 40 psi, your bolt is giving 7.85 units of force. much more than is needed to chop a ball, pluse the pressure in the power tube is in reality much higher. so a piston with a diameter of 1/8 at 40 psi is rather comfortable to a ball, a piston with a 1/4 in diameter is more than enough to demolish it at the same pressure.

[magic55]

he was asking if there is a way to get it so it doesn't chop though. we all got a little off track;)

[laysomepaint]

the reason it chops is because the bolt has a very high pressure behind it. i have a proposal to make the mag easier on paint. Make the mag pneumatic. Add a ram, LPR, and a 4way(or maybe solenoid valve in the case of the e-mag) and recock the bolt using this. it will take a bit of redesigning, but i know it can be done. pbjosh on here and pbnation did it and pretty much based a gun that hes designing on it(with an original valve of course). Of course that adds timing, but if done right, you could time it to be either open or closed bolt.

one problem i see with it is that the barrel pressure will be raised, because the piston in the bolt will probably have to be completely removed, but just move it to the tip of the power tube. Another added bonus is the superbolt wont wear as fast because there is no spring.

also, if it uses cocker pneumatics(at least the LPR and maybe ram) then theres a huge aftermarket added.

just some thoughts.

[LaW]

And the ability for higher rates of fire goes down as well :) with more moving parts the more complicated and bulky it will get, it's like turning it into a cocker :) we dont' need that... we have our own elves....

[magic55]

heres a simple solution... get a matrix. it is very fast and low pressure so it won't chop. if you get that you won't have anymore problems except for sucking down air.

[Muzikman]

Punisher made a Mag/Cocker hybrid. It is basicly what you just talked about. Why goes through all that...just buy a cocker.
I think chopping is a thing of the past pretty much with the WarpFeed, Halo and now ACE with the E-Mag Extremes.

[laysomepaint]

but angels, bushmasters, and impulses all have some sort of pneumatic system and their not slow. In fact, theyre among the fastest. The excalibur is closed bolt AND uses a ram to fire and a ram to recock, and does 13bps (also, supposively not hard to do it). Even electro cockers can reach 10-12. Ok...so theyre all electronic, but still...im sure there is a mechanical way to use a ram, and sill hit 10+ bps on an automag...think about what part of the trigger is controlling the ram. The botttom of the trigger moves farther because it is a swing trigger.

Just some more thoughts.

[oldguy]

I have played paintball for about six years. When I owned a tippman 68 carbine, rated at three rounds a second max, I never chopped a ball. When I bought my classic mag, it had a much faster rate of fire, a better trigger pull, and it chopped alot of paint. However, it never broke a ball that was fully loaded in the breach. Which leads me to believe that the chopping issue is not related to high pressure hitting the face of the ball or the bolt for that matter. My chopping was always a feeding problem. The bolt never broke a ball, it always cut them.

When I got the new parabolic feed plug and up graded to a retrovalve my chopping issue disappeared. All guns have some sort of compromize in their design. No design is perfect including the Mags. The trade-off with the Mag is its blow forward bolt design. The advantages are a high rate of fire, consistant velocity, and a very reliable marker. The downside is you are more likely to chop balls if they don't load fully into the breach. Does this mean that it is a bad design? No, just a weakness in it.

I bet even Tom Kaye recognizes the weaknesses, but decided the advantages out weigh it. He is always tying to minimize or eliminate the problem with such items as new feed plug designs, long nose bolt, super bolt, and now an antichopping eye.

I think the major key is the feeding system. Why did my tippman work without ever chopping. Well I think so because it fired so slow the ball always had time to fully feed into the breech. I bet their Model 98 chops more than the prolite. I know my son's does. So as long as we pursue the highest rate of fire possible we will always have to contend with chopped balls.

[jurassic]

Minimag with super bolt ( sanded and a cutdown foamie installed by me) and Retro valve and a Hyperframe and Turbo Revy and a Dye aluminum .687 bore shooting nothing but RP Flash. Ball counter at over 5000 ( admittedly not all shots were with paint) not one chop! Zero barrel breaks! Also the paint breaks on the first ball drop using TK paint test method. Very brittle paint! The hyper frame is set for 13 BPS Semi. Since I've brought the Mag back to life, I lube the gun up with plenty of AKA Extreme lube and use Shocker lube on the on/off pin and o-rings before every day of play or just plinking in the backyard.
But the only paintgun I have owned or shot for any length of time that never and I mean never chopped paint was the Air Power Vector! The bolt will stop on a misfed ball, push the modded saftey button the the bolt cycles back ball falls in chamber continue to shoot. No Paint mess!! Sometimes a shake of the gun would be needed to have pinched ball drop in the chamber. I still own this well made ugly gun s/n 804.