The Eigenbarrel

[splat15k]

Has anybody tried the Eigenbarrel by Lurker Paintball?

For those unfamilar with them, they are a 14" barrel with a continuous .678" ID.

Here is their link: http://www.lurkerpaintball.com/eigenbarrel.html

[Tunaman]

7 rows of porting does not sound like the most efficient barrel...but what do I know. I also wouldn't shoot a barrel that much undersized. The paint we shoot around here is no where near .678.

[cockerpunk]

im VERY excited to mine.

[kwood]

id like to try one
cockerpunk are you going to give us a nice testing video on this one?

[bojangles1983]

Are these mainly for indoor play, like using reballs?? I would think .679 would be rough to find in standard quality paint.

[cockerpunk]

after the other "underbore specials" come out from CP we'll get them together and test them all out. we have a 681 stiffi, i use a .679 python with .686 dye 12 inch one piece on the front, and bryce uses his .679 freak, so those all ought to make for an interesting test with the CP 1 and 2 piece .679s and the lurker .678.

[Drix]

No, these are not just for indoor play, and heres why:

The Eingenwhatever barrel was designed using specs from TechPB and mutliple trials. TechPB has found that underboring increases the efficiency of your marker and does not have significant play in barrel breaks. While odd, we know, it seems that Planet eclipse might be onto something with their cure bolts.

The barrel is a straight bore, with a slight opening at the threaded end to prevent balls from breaking on the seam due to the extremely small bore. It has a 9" control length (9" from breech to the first vents) to give maximum control over the accuracy with a crapload of porting to reduce sound signiture.

I've got a friend who will have his by the weekend- I suspect that for regular PB they'll rock. I also expect in winter they're going to blow because of condensation buildup on such a small bore size, and I also would expect that with reballs these might be iffy as they might catch edges and inperfections on the balls that might otherwise sort themselves out as they tumble through your barrel. Guess I'll see saturday though.

[vf-xx]

I"m thinking some pump guys may like these. There has been much complaint about tiny paint lately.

[warbeak2099]

7 rows of porting does not sound like the most efficient barrel...but what do I know. I also wouldn't shoot a barrel that much undersized. The paint we shoot around here is no where near .678.

Uh the porting doesn't start till after 9" of control bore. That's really what matters. Sounds pretty efficient to me, especially when you're underboring. There's no small paint in NJ? That's weird man, I haven't found anything larger than .683 in years.

[julien4]

they should have either made this barrel a two piece( second peice with a large bore and lots of porting) or a 1 piece unported barrel.

once the paintball hits the ported part of the barrel, pressure is no longer pushing the paintball. the .678 ID will cause alot of friction and may slightly hurt the potentially great effieciency you get from underboring.

In my opinion the ideal barrrel with be a 10 inch 1 piece unported barrel with a .680ish ID.

[zondo]

There has to be a point where the ratio of barrel bore to paintball diameter has a negative effect. Eventually it's the equivalent of trying to spit a grape through a straw. I'm curious to see if cockerpunk and bryce find this point.

I think I may be in a wait and see mode after these shot tests are finished.

[cockerpunk]

they should have either made this barrel a two piece( second peice with a large bore and lots of porting) or a 1 piece unported barrel.

once the paintball hits the ported part of the barrel, pressure is no longer pushing the paintball. the .678 ID will cause alot of friction and may slightly hurt the potentially great effieciency you get from underboring.

In my opinion the ideal barrrel with be a 10 inch 1 piece unported barrel with a .680ish ID.

porting doesn't mean the barrel stops containing the power pulse and the ball is suddenly left to its own devices.

if that were the case then adding a heavily ported front to a barrel back wouldn't effect the chrono speed.

and yet when we do put a heavily ported front on a barrel back, the muzzle velocity goes up.

[georgeyew]

and yet when we do put a heavily ported front on a barrel back, the muzzle velocity goes up.

Can you please explain the science behind that? It doesn't make sense to me.

[paintmann111]

I think what he means is it goes down, but if the pulse was lost as soon as the ball passed through the porting it wouldn't matter what kind of porting you put on the front because the velocity would stay the same. (run on sentence I know). Basically ---> depending on what you have for porting on a barrel tip, you can change the velocity of the paintball. The other guy said it didn't matter, but it does because the power behind the ball isn't lost. I think I said it right. hahaha :rolleyes:

[CatoRockwell]

Thats weird I would never buy a barrel that small, out here in UT the paint ranges between 687 and 691, with Marbalizer being right around 689. I wonder why the paint is different sizes in different areas :confused:

[wetwrks]

Thats weird I would never buy a barrel that small, out here in UT the paint ranges between 687 and 691, with Marbalizer being right around 689. I wonder why the paint is different sizes in different areas :confused:

Temperature, Humidity, Altitude, Manufacturer....all can play a part.

[Frizzle Fry]

Marbalizer being right around 689
Weird, Marbs in Massachusetts are .684 fairly consistently, and at D-Day last year I saw .683 consistently.

[CatoRockwell]

Weird, Marbs in Massachusetts are .684 fairly consistently, and at D-Day last year I saw .683 consistently.

D-Day last year was the JT Fluid line, I would know, it was the hands down worst event paint I have ever used. It was also fairly large I couldn't use it in my qloader.

[Frizzle Fry]

D-Day last year was the JT Fluid line, I would know, it was the hands down worst event paint I have ever used. It was also fairly large I couldn't use it in my qloader.

I shot Marbs bought from PB Fury and they were .683 fairly consistently. About 2 years ago or so I was using a .691 Scepter for Marbs regularly and now it practically drops through. I will say that Fluid was just terrible... It doesn't feed in my Pinokio; I can literally get cheapo Rufus Dawgballs (not actually sure that's the name) to feed more regularly than that crap.

I'd much rather see Valken (worth trying for lvl7 users) for similar cost or even Stinger. I know it has to be overpriced but at least it could be good cheap crap.

[Tunaman]

they should have either made this barrel a two piece( second peice with a large bore and lots of porting) or a 1 piece unported barrel.

once the paintball hits the ported part of the barrel, pressure is no longer pushing the paintball. the .678 ID will cause alot of friction and may slightly hurt the potentially great effieciency you get from underboring.

In my opinion the ideal barrrel with be a 10 inch 1 piece unported barrel with a .680ish ID.
Correct. TK proved this years ago. But you guys can believe all the hype you like.

[Tao]

Ummmm....Arent all barrels continuous ID until two piece barrels came along? :rofl:

[Swamp Thing]

Palmers are not they are eliptical with wider portion in middle and narrow on the ends

Swamp

[boarder2k7]

That barrel looks good to me man, I like massive porting at the end because I like my gun to be quiet, even if that sheds a bit of efficiency.

I'd get one if I had money and an AC thread adaptor!

-B

[going_home]

Wow.
.678 huh ?
I'd like to try one but it seems to be way too small for the paint around here.
Seems like if you are way under boring a barrel (paint runs about .687 around here)
that may work with a pump, one shot at a time.
Seems like it would slow the ball down in the barrel and cause barrel breaks under rapid fire.

I had some nice fresh Marbs and had to change from a .685 to a .687 because of barrel breaks here last year.
Now if I used $35.00 a box paint maybe an under bored barrel wouldnt cause broken paint.
just saying.

:ninja:

[splat15k]

At $39, it's worth testing out to know the performance for certain.

[cockerpunk]

i have no idea where poeple are finding .685+ paint.

i often have rollouts out of my .679 python. forget underboring, just to prevent a rollout you need a barrel like this around here. underboring a huge bonus when you get the chance to do it though.

[Dirge]

Northeast. Can't say I have seen paint that small. Usually use a .689 to .693 myself.

[going_home]

i have no idea where poeple are finding .685+ paint.

i often have rollouts out of my .679 python. forget underboring, just to prevent a rollout you need a barrel like this around here. underboring a huge bonus when you get the chance to do it though.

Florida.

:ninja:

[CatoRockwell]

If you come out to the Rockies you will find that virtually all paint is between 687 & 693

[cockerpunk]

Correct. TK proved this years ago. But you guys can believe all the hype you like.

you can easily do the same experiment at home or at the chrono station.

take the front off your 2 piece barrel, fire a few shots, then stick the front back on and take a few more shots. they will be higher in velocity.

means that this "the mm the ball hits a port the barrel is over" business is the hype. the expanding gas does continue to push the ball even after it hits both the massive overbore of a barrel front, and the porting.

[Frizzle Fry]

Florida.

:ninja:

Any place with high humidity... I road tripped down to GA to play with old college buddies last year. My friend and I (both having digicalipers in our kits) measured and inserting accordingly but upon arrival we found that our balls had grown (be mature :p) along the trip, which also resulted in misshaping what was left upon our return. The shot fine after going from .684 to .691 but back in MA they were ovoid and averaged .688 and splattered like waterballoons in the barrel. This was all over the course of a week and they were living in regularly jostled/agitated bags.

[cockerpunk]

in the summer when we get 95 degrees and extreme humidity, we still have small bore paint.

[Loneassassin]

i have no idea where poeple are finding .685+ paint.

i often have rollouts out of my .679 python. forget underboring, just to prevent a rollout you need a barrel like this around here. underboring a huge bonus when you get the chance to do it though.


Ditto. Only in my dreams can I find paint bigger than .682, lol. This includes Marbalizer. I haven't used a barrel back larger than .682 for years. And with some of the cheaper or mid range paint, I have had rollouts in my cockers using a .679 Freak insert with TWO pieces of electrical tape in the breech end. Maybe GI Milsim is in cahoots with the paint companies to force .50 cal on us slowly over time... :nono:

Anyway, this is actually one of the reasons I'm in the market for a Mag - I'm sick of dealing with tiny paint rolling through even my smallest Freak insert. And on an open bolt marker, it doesn't really matter...

[kcombs9]

Maybe GI Milsim is in cahoots with the paint companies to force .50 cal on us slowly over time... :nono:

My thoughts exactly :mad:

[CatoRockwell]

I was going to say that humidity shouldn't have much to do with our large paint. UT is a desert, almost no humidity ever. In fact people who come here from other states often find that they get dehydrated easier and also tend to get dry and cracked skin.

[Rudz]

I've got. 4 kinds of paint in the last 2 months, evil was 684, ultra evil was rolling out of a 681, and I have marbs and premium, both at 682

So yeah, I'm thinking this barrel might help rollouts on my sniper, but I want to see it tested

[Poe]

you can easily do the same experiment at home or at the chrono station.

take the front off your 2 piece barrel, fire a few shots, then stick the front back on and take a few more shots. they will be higher in velocity.

means that this "the mm the ball hits a port the barrel is over" business is the hype. the expanding gas does continue to push the ball even after it hits both the massive overbore of a barrel front, and the porting.

Cockerpunk,

Considering barrel pressure after five inches is quite low and it's trying to evacuate in less than 1ms.. this is understandable, but just out of curiosity what additional "control bore" distance does the front add? Since the front's porting doesn't start where it contacts the insert, the front does add some additional "control bore" distance doesn't it? What's the back only control bore distance vs the back + front (measured to first port) distance?

[cdc120602]

Just thought I'd add my $0.02. I played in 10 degree weather with Polar Ice this weekend in Eastern Ohio (Battlefront). I had my .682 Freak insert installed and the paint was still rolling out! It wasn't even close! Maybe I should look into this. Maybe I should just wait till summer to play...lol On the plus side, my cheater was amazing!

[cockerpunk]

Cockerpunk,

Considering barrel pressure after five inches is quite low and it's trying to evacuate in less than 1ms.. this is understandable, but just out of curiosity what additional "control bore" distance does the front add? Since the front's porting doesn't start where it contacts the insert, the front does add some additional "control bore" distance doesn't it? What's the back only control bore distance vs the back + front (measured to first port) distance?

on the CPs the short fronts only add about a quarter of an inch before the first ports. i think that is what your referring to.

[xluben]

Lurker barrel arrived today:

http://benjohnson.smugmug.com/Paintball/Equipment/Lurker-Paintball-Eigenbarrel/IMG7707/778811066_Cpwxr-L.jpg

http://benjohnson.smugmug.com/Paintball/Equipment/Lurker-Paintball-Eigenbarrel/IMG7708/778811122_c2LTU-L.jpg

http://benjohnson.smugmug.com/Paintball/Equipment/Lurker-Paintball-Eigenbarrel/IMG7709/778811162_W7hXY-L.jpg

http://benjohnson.smugmug.com/Paintball/Equipment/Lurker-Paintball-Eigenbarrel/IMG7715/778811264_cg8h6-L.jpg

http://benjohnson.smugmug.com/Paintball/Equipment/Lurker-Paintball-Eigenbarrel/IMG7736/778811536_AWzZa-L.jpg

http://benjohnson.smugmug.com/Paintball/Equipment/Lurker-Paintball-Eigenbarrel/IMG7738/778811569_8RBjk-L.jpg

More info and pictures here:

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?p=64627922

[drg]

means that this "the mm the ball hits a port the barrel is over" business is the hype. the expanding gas does continue to push the ball even after it hits both the massive overbore of a barrel front, and the porting.

Not only that, but TK's results only pertained to efficiency. Sound signature is in fact a part of barrel performance, so there would be a point to porting even if it had no influence on efficiency.

[cockerpunk]

Not only that, but TK's results only pertained to efficiency. Sound signature is in fact a part of barrel performance, so there would be a point to porting even if it had no influence on efficiency.

im going to come out and say that the ONLY point to porting is sound signature.

[kwood]

so xluben
have you tried it out yet?
we are all anxious to here about how she does

[drg]

im going to come out and say that the ONLY point to porting is sound signature.

Yes porting per se, however I'm talking about how you mentioned a ported section doesn't equate to no barrel at all when it comes to propulsion.

[cockerpunk]

Yes porting per se, however I'm talking about how you mentioned a ported section doesn't equate to no barrel at all when it comes to propulsion.

right, however it is significantly worse efficiency wise compared to even an unported overbore.

[kwood]

will there be enough clearance for an automag bolt to fit inside this barrel when a shot is fired

[kcombs9]

will there be enough clearance for an automag bolt to fit inside this barrel when a shot is fired

Its not a Twist lock barrel I don't understand your question.

But if it helps my .689 insert fits over the LvlX bolt but not my .687

[xluben]

This barrel is available in 'Cocker threads only.

Quick video:


Planet Eclipse Geo
0.693" SL2 Barrel - 288.4fps
0.685" SL2 Barrel - 293.4fps
0.678" Eigenbarrel - 299.2fps

RPS Marballizer - Bore Matches 0.685" Back

Shot with Canon 7D
and 17-55 2.8 IS
Full 1080p24
ISO100, f/10, 1/50sec

Click the 360p button, and then select 1080p!
YouTube - Lurker Eigenbarrel - Geo - Bore vs Velocity - 1080p HD (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGQhDuIh4NI)

[drg]

right, however it is significantly worse efficiency wise compared to even an unported overbore.

But better than no barrel there at all, you claim.

[georgeyew]

That's some pretty impressive numbers.

[jolt00]

im going to come out.

look every body CP is finally coming out of the closet!!
:rofl:

jk CP
-----------------------

how is everyone measuring the diameter of there paint?
if your using freak inserts I know that a lot of them are off size wise. They may say .689 or .683 or what ever and not be the size they say SP was never consistent.
so unless your using calipers who knows what size the paint is lol.
just saying

:cheers:

[chafnerjr]

look every body CP is finally coming out of the closet!!
:rofl:

jk CP
-----------------------

how is everyone measuring the diameter of there paint?
if your using freak inserts I know that a lot of them are off size wise. They may say .689 or .683 or what ever and not be the size they say SP was never consistent.
so unless your using calipers who knows what size the paint is lol.
just saying

:cheers:

I measure by my freak inserts... but I'm also anal enough to have measured those to spec with a calibrated digital vernier caliper. Our RPS up here (NH) runs .687-.689 it's the winter stuff that gets a bit smaller. Good thing I have a .687 Dye since I don't have an insert that size!

I'm really interested in these results.. I just can't believe that I could stuff a .685-.689 ball in a barrel like that at any decent rate of fire... and having watched the video I'd like to see the test done on a more consistent marker. While the under bore did average higher I was seeing variances of 30fps during the test and 15ish on the other barrels. Not that I'll dispute the averages there just seemed to be a lack of overall marker consistency.

Nice to see some real world testing of products rather than a bunch of arguments and conjecture. :cheers:

[cockerpunk]

Not that I'll dispute the averages there just seemed to be a lack of overall marker consistency.

Nice to see some real world testing of products rather than a bunch of arguments and conjecture. :cheers:

you'll note that ANY gun does this when you measure more then 5 or 6 shots. plain and simple - guns are as consistent as people think they are, yes, even nice ones.

[xluben]

I measure by my freak inserts... but I'm also anal enough to have measured those to spec with a calibrated digital vernier caliper. Our RPS up here (NH) runs .687-.689 it's the winter stuff that gets a bit smaller. Good thing I have a .687 Dye since I don't have an insert that size!

I'm really interested in these results.. I just can't believe that I could stuff a .685-.689 ball in a barrel like that at any decent rate of fire... and having watched the video I'd like to see the test done on a more consistent marker. While the under bore did average higher I was seeing variances of 30fps during the test and 15ish on the other barrels. Not that I'll dispute the averages there just seemed to be a lack of overall marker consistency.

Nice to see some real world testing of products rather than a bunch of arguments and conjecture. :cheers:
I have digital calipers, but they are not calibrated in any way.

The Eigenbarrel was within 0.0005" of the advertised bore (both ends).

I agree with cockerpunk, a standard deviation of ~5 or slightly higher is fairly typical even with a high end gun. My paint was fairly consistent, so I don't think I'd be able to get it too much better than this even with high end paint.

If you do calculate the confidence interval and do a t-test or ANOVA, you will see that even with this amount of variation, and the given sample sizes, there is plenty of data to show that the difference in the velocity populations is statistically significant.

Here is a bit more data for you to ponder (includes the video I posted above as well as data from the next day, both Geo and Etek3).

http://benjohnson.smugmug.com/photos/780315550_N4n3V-O.jpg

I'll try to get a video of it shooting at 12BPS on ramping. Hopefully I won't see breaks at that rate of fire, or the barrel is of no use to me.

[FutureMagOwner]

I also want to point out with these measurements is the level of uncertainty with the measurements themselves. The only specs I could find on a chronograph was that measurements are nominally within 1% accuracy. That means a measurement of 300fps is within +/- 3fps. I wanted to mention this because this makes a pretty big difference when it comes to making any reasonable conclusion on any test in that regard.

[drg]

I also want to point out with these measurements is the level of uncertainty with the measurements themselves. The only specs I could find on a chronograph was that measurements are nominally within 1% accuracy. That means a measurement of 300fps is within +/- 3fps. I wanted to mention this because this makes a pretty big difference when it comes to making any reasonable conclusion on any test in that regard.

Yup and that's for optical chronos. Radar chronos are even less accurate.

[chafnerjr]

Fair enough... now to see 12bps or more through it.

[Enemy]

ok ill just come at as well....


why are thinking at an increased rate of fire your going to see more breaks?? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

and cp was getting at a 6" barrel with no porting will lose performance to a 14" ported barrel with 7" of control bore, but conversely an 8" un-ported will out perform the 14" or something to that extent.

[rawbutter]

Fair enough... now to see 12bps or more through it.

Did you ever get to do this? I was watching this thread, and then it just died.

Also, while you've showed at lot of data about efficiency and fps readings, you haven't said anything about the accuracy or the tendency of the barrel to break paint. I really don't care if a lower bore barrel gets slightly better efficiency (I shoot a mag, don't I, so why would I care about efficiency :rolleyes: ), but I AM very curious about (a) how accurate the barrel is, (b) if the smaller bore causes more breaks, and (c) how well it cleans itself.

[drg]

There is fairly extensive discussion about this barrel on a couple other forums.

[chafnerjr]

There is fairly extensive discussion about this barrel on a couple other forums.
So what's the verdict?

[athomas]

The discussion concerning porting and if there is any available force beyond the start of the porting can easily be proven by firing the gun(without balls) and holding your hand against the tip of the barrel. You will notice that there is lots of energy in the air blast, even though there is plenty of porting in the barrel. That is because the air has mass and energy and it takes force to change its direction. The amount of force it takes to redirect it to the side and then force it out through the ports is equal to the energy imparted on the object that is redirecting it(the ball). So, even though barrel porting exists, the ball will still be accelerated past the porting although it will lose some of its effectiveness.

We tested some barrels back in 1990. Everyone was honing their barrels out thinking the honing was making the surface smoother and more accurate. We found that the honing process actually opened up the barrels and made the balls more loose so that they barely touched inside the barrel. The efficiency went down but the accuracy went way up, especially with poor quality paint (as good as it gets with poor quality paint). Larger bores are more forgiving on poor paint. Tight bores only work on good paint.

[StygShore]

I shot about 600 rounds through one I barrowed about 2 weeks ago. I was shooting Diablo Heat, so not the best paint for a test.

The barrel was nice when shooting slow, and I got about a 15fps average increase on the chrony... but break one ball and you are done for.

I played a game with it, cursing at te owner about how much I hated his barrel as I watched abotu 1/2 my shots spray out the end of the barrel. I did get somne peopel out that game, but not worth it to me - I will go wiht a nice paint to bore match and deal with having to turn the gun up a little.


Styg


Ill try it again when it gets warmer and see if the warmer temps and better paint help at all

[drg]

So what's the verdict?

My verdict is that unfortunately it's not really a good barrel choice.

[chafnerjr]

That's what I was worried about... oh well. At least it's another theory tried and learned from. :cheers:

[drg]

The bore size theory is okay, but stick with a two piece or step bore design.

[BigEvil]

Northeast. Can't say I have seen paint that small. Usually use a .689 to .693 myself.

^
Yup. We get smaller down here, but not smaller than .684 ish.

[chafnerjr]

^
Yup. We get smaller down here, but not smaller than .684 ish.
Something tells me that making a "smaller balls down south?" joke wouldn't be appreciated much eh? :rolleyes: :cheers:

Sorry, I couldn't help it.

[BigEvil]

Something tells me that making a "smaller balls down south?" joke wouldn't be appreciated much eh? :rolleyes: :cheers:

Sorry, I couldn't help it.


I dont know about smaller... but I do know about 'Blue-er" :D

[going_home]

^
Yup. We get smaller down here, but not smaller than .684 ish.

I just picked up some of the APX Fyre.
Came from Califorinia, to here, Florida. From the left coast to the right one .
.687 is the smallest I'm able to use and seems to be the norm here no matter which paint I buy.
I wondered about this barrel with the bore being so small.
I thought maybe it might work for pump players, but I couldnt see how you wouldnt break paint under rapid fire semi auto conditions.

But DRG is a pump guy and he gave the barrel thumbs down.

I'd be interested to to know what made him come to that conclusion.


:ninja:

[drg]

Breaks are actually generally not an issue with unerboring, it takes a lot of underbore to break balls.