Mag Regulator Question

[sslecyk03]

I've seen some people remove the reg on their mag valves and cap them off while using a reg or adjustable tank to control the input pressure to the valve. I am interested in doing this in an effort to take some inches off the back of the valve. I have a few questions though:

1. Would this only work with classic valves and not x-valves?

2. If using an adjustable tank, what pressure would I need it to output in order to operate the marker?

3. How would I adjust the velocity of the marker with the reg removed?

4. Would shootdown be a problem and if so what steps can be taken to avoid it?

Thank you guys, as always

[Frizzle Fry]

I removed about a centimeter of threading from my AA valve back and fabricated a shorter spring pack.

I'd like to know how to do away with the reg entirely though (I love Classics but I have a project in mind).

[sslecyk03]

I removed about a centimeter of threading from my AA valve back and fabricated a shorter spring pack.

I'd like to know how to do away with the reg entirely though (I love Classics but I have a project in mind).

I figured I wouldn't be the only one interested in it. Saw the idea on the mcarterbrown forums and I would love to try it out, I'm sure someone here can answer those questions.

[reckid1986]

you can do it to both valves you just need an inline reg, theres another thread like this somewhere, ill try to find it and link you to it.

[Frizzle Fry]

I did a search, but there doesn't seem to be much and I have a feeling my terms were wrong. Damn you George Boole!

[reckid1986]

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=59051

heres one with some info about it
and the other

http://www.pblegion.com/showthread.php?t=2670

[Frizzle Fry]

Hmmm. I was hoping for an aftermarket part for a standard AM valve... Machining a whole new valve though, that could be fun.

[leloup]

That would be pretty sweet to have something like that. Mag regs are great, but if you are going to have a foregrip, it might as well do something beside give you something to hold...and look pretty.

[sslecyk03]

Thanks for the links, do you have to use an inline reg or can you just use an adjustable tank? And also anyone know the input pressure needed?

[Tunaman]

Thanks for the links, do you have to use an inline reg or can you just use an adjustable tank? And also anyone know the input pressure needed?
Why would you take off a good reg to put another reg back on? There is no aftermarket part to fill the hole in the back of the valve. Input pressure needs to be the same...700+
Not worth it.

[sslecyk03]

Why would you take off a good reg to put another reg back on? There is no aftermarket part to fill the hole in the back of the valve. Input pressure needs to be the same...700+
Not worth it.

Caps have been made that screw on instead of the reg, so yes it can be done. I understand the reg is good (great in fact), and by taking it off I am by no means implying that there is a better reg. I am willing, however, to sacrifice some of the recharge in order to "half block" or cut down some length from the back of the marker. I have a design in my mind and I'm trying to follow through with it.

So lets say I cap off the back of the valve, can I just use an adjustable tank as opposed to an inline reg? If so I would need a lower input pressure would I not?

[Ando]

Your project should work with a classic valve but I'm not sure how you'd get a RT valve to work right, when I mean by work right, I'm talking about RT effect. The velocity (FPS) could be adj by an adj reg but as far as RTing goes. I'm not sure how it would work out since the more pressure you have going into the valve the faster it'll shoots. You won't be able to push 1200 psi through it cause that'll cause your FPS to sky rocket.

[sslecyk03]

Your project should work with a classic valve but I'm not sure how you'd get a RT valve to work right, when I mean by work right, I'm talking about RT effect. The velocity (FPS) could be adj by a adj reg itself but as fare as RTing goes. I'm not sure how it would work out since the more pressure you have going into the valve the faster it'll shoots. You won't be able to push 1200 psi through it cause that'll cause your FPS to sky rocket.

Loosing reactivity is fine with me, considering I'm probably going to pneu it anyway. My main concern is will I be able to use only the reg on an adjustable tank instead of using an inline reg and what pressure I will need to output from the reg. I'm looking into the ninja reg/tanks and wondering if they will get the job done. It all depends on what psi I need to input to the valve. From there I am set. I'm talking to Deus Machina, who has made the caps, on the mcarterbrown forums. I guess Rogue made some as well. If they can't help me then I have access to a lathe so I might just machine my own.

[Ando]

You'd have to get an adj reg like a Geddon, Dynflow, ect..ect...

Something that will give you a precise PSI for your velocity. There's too much throw with a ninja or any of those other adj regs.

[sslecyk03]

You'd have to get an adj reg like a Geddon, Dynflow, ect..ect...

Something that will give you a precise PSI for your velocity. There's too much throw with a ninja or any of those other adj regs.

Alright so no ninja. I really was looking for a screw in tank tank/reg. Are there any screw ins that will give me a precise psi? Any clue on what psi I'd need to input to the valve? Thanks.

[Ando]

Now don't let me crush your dreams brother. There's always peel shims you could use to get the PSI where you need it. Problem with that is finding them. I work at a military base. Give me the dimensions on the shims and I'll see what I can come up with.

http://img.directindustry.com/images_di/photo-g/laminated-shim-30213.jpg

[sslecyk03]

Now don't let me crush your dreams brother. There's always peel shims you could use to get the PSI where you need it. Problem with that is finding them. I work at a military base. Give me the dimensions on the shims and I'll see what I can come up with.

http://img.directindustry.com/images_di/photo-g/laminated-shim-30213.jpg

Awesome. So the deal with those would be that I would adjust my input pressure (by peeling the shims) until I am in the correct velocity range? Wouldn't I need a certain psi to the valve though? I'm a little confused on that still.


Edit: To clarify, say that I need to input 400psi to the valve, how would I then change the velocity if I have to keep the psi at 400?

[Ando]

The shims in a ninja and other adj regs like it, adj the output pressure to your marker.

I don't know the dimensions of the shims in a ninja so theatrically speaking. If all the shims are .200 and each shim increases the pressure by say 300 psi. With a peelable shim, each layer is .010 so every layer will bring your pressure up or down by 15 psi. That should get you in the ball park for your FPS. ;)

Again...Finding the correct shims is going to be your only issue, well besides modding the back of the valve :p

[kcombs9]

"To clarify, say that I need to input 400psi to the valve, how would I then change the velocity if I have to keep the psi at 400?"

You cant. the pressure you put into the valve is the operating pressure and your velocity.

ie : at 400psi from tank you shoot at 250fps you bump your tank up to 450psi your velocity go's up.

These figures are hypothetical.

[sslecyk03]

"To clarify, say that I need to input 400psi to the valve, how would I then change the velocity if I have to keep the psi at 400?"

You cant. the pressure you put into the valve is the operating pressure and your velocity.

ie : at 400psi from tank you shoot at 250fps you bump your tank up to 450psi your velocity go's up.

These figures are hypothetical.

I see... so basically I have to hope that whatever input pressure I need will also put me in the correct velocity range? Hopefully that isn't too much of a longshot. I hate to keep asking this but I really want to know what input pressure I need. I know mags like 850+ psi but without the reg I would need the value that the reg outputs to the valve, correct? So what psi is actually going into the mag valve: 400? 500? I'm kinda lost here. Thanks for the help so far though guys.


And just so you guys know I will be halving the valve on this little guy:
http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/1749/mag7.jpg (http://img687.imageshack.us/i/mag7.jpg/)

Can't wait till it is finished and I can send it in to ano.

[kcombs9]

"The regulator basically breaks down the 800-3K PSI to about 400-450 from what I've been told. That is what the pin lets in."

from the 2nd link posted earlier.

[sslecyk03]

"The regulator basically breaks down the 800-3K PSI to about 400-450 from what I've been told. That is what the pin lets in."

from the 2nd link posted earlier.


Perfect, thanks man. I should have done a little better reading I guess. Now I just have to figure out what velocity 400-450 psi will equate to, and hopefully it is around 275-300. Thanks again.

[cdc120602]

What about an inline regulator? Wouldn't that allow him to screw the Ninja reg in and adjust the output? I don't think there'd be any weight or size savings with that, but the results should be there.

[kcombs9]

What about an inline regulator? Wouldn't that allow him to screw the Ninja reg in and adjust the output? I don't think there'd be any weight or size savings with that, but the results should be there.

yes it would but would still need to be set to that 400-450psi. the weight gain is all in having an adjustable tank. and small front grip.

IMO this would be a great mod for a rifle mag.

[sslecyk03]

What about an inline regulator? Wouldn't that allow him to screw the Ninja reg in and adjust the output? I don't think there'd be any weight or size savings with that, but the results should be there.

It is hard to see in the pic but I am running my airline straight up from my unimount into the grip frame and out under the rail on the other side (which would go straight to the valve if it was there). This is why I want a screw in adjustable and not an inline reg because I would have to re-route that line. It was a bit of work to hide all the airline and I want to keep it that way if I can.

[sslecyk03]

So apparently ninja regs don't work well under 500 psi....could I just buy a LP tank that outputs 450 or so and bypass having an adjustable reg?

[reckid1986]

your best bet would start with a low psi say around 300 or maybe lower. see if the gun fires, if it does check it over a chrono. and increase or decrease psi from there to get the velocity you want. you would need and adjustable tank to do that.

the lp tank would work if thats the psi needed but you should try an adjustable one first so you can pinpoint it.

[sslecyk03]

your best bet would start with a low psi say around 300 or maybe lower. see if the gun fires, if it does check it over a chrono. and increase or decrease psi from there to get the velocity you want. you would need and adjustable tank to do that.

the lp tank would work if thats the psi needed but you should try an adjustable one first so you can pinpoint it.

Good point, I'd be screwed if the velocity was too high/low. Now I just need to find a screw in tank (or just the reg) that is adjustable to the 300-450 range. If anybody knows of one please please let me know. Thanks again you guys are awesome.

[smeek]

So apparently ninja regs don't work well under 500 psi....could I just buy a LP tank that outputs 450 or so and bypass having an adjustable reg?

If you can't adjust pressure you can't adjust velocity.

I also have my doubts of running an adjustable tank without a secondary regulator. I've tried that with a crappy adjustable ACI bulldog II screw in back when I shot my model 98 and it couldn't even keep up with the gun, I had massive shootdown and other issues until I put in a secondary reg and upped the tank output. For this to work at all you can't skimp on the tank you need something high flow/quality like a flatline, dyna/hyperflow, conquest or Geddon, and even then I still have my doubts as to the performance of running just the tank regulator.

You're asking a lot out of some springs and orings regulating 4500 psi down to 400ish psi consistantly throughout the pressure range as the tank empties. You're likely to run in to chrono issues as the output pressure changes slightly as the tank pressure gets lower. The standard practice of regulating the 4500 to 800 than to the guns operating pressure is a safety factor and also performance factor in my opinion. If the reg on the tank fails you are now dumping way too much pressure straight into the valve.

[sslecyk03]

If you can't adjust pressure you can't adjust velocity.

I also have my doubts of running an adjustable tank without a secondary regulator. I've tried that with a crappy adjustable ACI bulldog II screw in back when I shot my model 98 and it couldn't even keep up with the gun, I had massive shootdown and other issues until I put in a secondary reg and upped the tank output. For this to work at all you can't skimp on the tank you need something high flow/quality like a flatline, dyna/hyperflow, conquest or Geddon, and even then I still have my doubts as to the performance of running just the tank regulator.

You're asking a lot out of some springs and orings regulating 4500 psi down to 400ish psi consistantly throughout the pressure range as the tank empties. You're likely to run in to chrono issues as the output pressure changes slightly as the tank pressure gets lower. The standard practice of regulating the 4500 to 800 than to the guns operating pressure is a safety factor and also performance factor in my opinion. If the reg on the tank fails you are now dumping way too much pressure straight into the valve.

Also good points and makes a lot of sense. Let's say that I use my standard preset tank, are there any regs that are small enough to fit in my trigger frame that would be sufficient to lower the psi?

Edit- may have answered my own question. Looks like the aka 2 liter is very small, handles up to 900psi input and up to 500 output, which would be perfect. I believe I could fit it in my trigger frame as well with an asa on top of it to route the line to the valve. Can anyone confirm if this would work?

[smeek]

Instead of a 2 liter in the grip frame I'm wondering if you could mount a female stabilizer in place of the on/off in that cage. You would lose the on/off capability but its another idea possibly much easier.

[sslecyk03]

Instead of a 2 liter in the grip frame I'm wondering if you could mount a female stabilizer in place of the on/off in that cage. You would lose the on/off capability but its another idea possibly much easier.

Interesting idea. Probably not the best looking thing but I think it would work. Definitely something I will keep in mind. Thanks.

[sslecyk03]

Startin to like that palmer stab idea a lot more now....it is smaller than I thought and I don't think it would throw off the look too much, actually looks kinda cool. Can anyone confirm that a female stab will fit in a unimount cage? It looks to me like it will. Thanks.

[sslecyk03]

Ok guys check this out:

http://www.palmer-pursuit.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=8_9_28&products_id=152

It is a direct stabby. I am pretty sure the outputs are the same as a macroline fitting? So I could stick this in my frame easily I believe and not have to change my airlines, also being able to keep my unimount. That way when I pneu it I can still run the reg off my unimount asa instead of having to worry about drilling the stab. Sounds like a win win to me.

something like this:
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/8373/magstab.jpg (http://img59.imageshack.us/i/magstab.jpg/)

what do you guys think about that?

[kcombs9]

its going to be a tight fit i would think, my emag frame is only 4.5 inch high that thing is 4.26+fitting and 1inch OD my frame is that wide with the grips on it...

[sslecyk03]

its going to be a tight fit i would think, my emag frame is only 4.5 inch high that thing is 4.26+fitting and 1inch OD my frame is that wide with the grips on it...

:cry:
dammmn it looks smaller in the picture, didn't realize it was that long and wide. Back to the drawing boards I guess....

Thanks

[kcombs9]

^^

I just saved you 100$ pay up ;)

[sslecyk03]

^^

I just saved you 100$ pay up ;)

Ha I'm still in the brainstorming stage for this, if it came time to throw down 100 I would have made sure on those dimensions. Too bad aka doesn't make a direct 2 liter....that would be perfect.

[reckid1986]

just call pps and see if they can come up with anything that would fit your needs.

[sslecyk03]

just call pps and see if they can come up with anything that would fit your needs.

Well they are probably closed now but I'll try them tomorrow. I'd honestly just go with the female stabby in the unimount cage if I could find a way to integrate an on/off into it. Do they make small extender asa's with an on/off? Kinda turned away from making it any longer than it already is but I do have a y-grip so it couldn't hurt.

[sslecyk03]

OK, so I finally figured out the perfect thing to do for this setup. It will allow me to use the inline stabilizer which is only 3.4 inches long as opposed to the female stabby that is 4.25 inches long and I will also be able to keep my internal airlines and keep my unimount on/off.

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/3176/magg.jpg (http://img707.imageshack.us/i/magg.jpg/)

Ok so the stabby will screw in where the LPR is right now. The output is on the side of the stabby so I will need a short piece of macro to connect it to the top fitting and tada! Problem solved. On/off will still work and I get a shorter stabilizer so it is perfect. I worked a good 3 hours or so today trying to fit that upper elbow in above the on/off but it was well worth it. Perfect fit and everything is in place and ready to go. :clap:

The LPR will now go on the other side of the unimount once I get the pneums.

Without the reg on the back of the valve the effective length of the gun is now 7 inches on the dot from the back of the rail to the front of the rail. How is that for small?