From MCB: Safety warning regarding SA8

[Lohman446]

It has come to our attention that Pepperball Technologies has released for sale to the public the SA-8 pistol which our company, Tiberius Arms manufactured for them based on their specifications. In the interest of public safety and customer satisfaction we felt it important to provide the general public with additional information about this product. First, it is important to understand that this product was never intended for any recreational activity and was not designed to fire .68 paintballs. This product was produced and sold only for use as a less than lethal weapon. It is also important to note that while this weapon appears similar to our Tiberius 8 (aka. T8, Tac 8, Tag 8) paintball pistol, internally there are numerous differences which makes their use in painball dangerous. After receiving and closely analyzing the SA-8, many of those who have purchased them have noticed that many parts are different. Many of the SA-8’s were built with a non-adjustable regulator and all were built with a fixed pressure relief valve. This means the SA-8 is missing key safety components designed for the sport of paintball. We realize that paintball player’s who purchased an SA-8 didn’t realize that what they were purchasing wasn’t suitable for paintball. Safety is of primary importance in the sport of paintball and manufacturer’s, distributor’s and player’s all have a responsibility to insure the equipment they are selling and/or using functions in a safe manner. Player’s attempting to refinish or rework an SA-8 for use in the sport of paintball are putting themselves and other player’s at risk. Tiberius Arms wants to do our part to ensure that these products are not used in the sport of paintball. Accordingly we will be working with field owners so they can recognize Tiberius manufactured less lethal products that are not suitable for use in the sport of paintball. In addition we would like to offer all of those who purchased an SA-8 Bundle with the intention of using it for paintball the opportunity to return said kit to us in exchange for a $100 Tiberius Arms gift certificate. Those with questions should contact Eric Bratten with Tiberius Arms at eric@tiberiusarms.com


Best regards,
Eric Bratten
VP Sales & Marketing
Tiberius Arms
260.478.2500 ext. 235
260.572.2210 fax
Eric@tiberiusarms.com
Tiberius Arms

I will say it once over here. In my opinion... the SA8 is sold as a WEAPON and the above reiterates it is a WEAPON that according to the manufacturer is not safe for recreational use. Use of one probably exposes the user to severe legal liability (not a lawyer). It doesn't matter if you modified it or not, the manufacturer still sees it as a WEAPON and has stated, in writing, they beleive it is missing key safety components for recreational use.

[Sumthinwicked]

In addition we would like to offer all of those who purchased an SA-8 Bundle with the intention of using it for paintball the opportunity to return said kit to us in exchange for a $100 Tiberius Arms gift certificate


mighty nice of them....

[Lohman446]

Oh, I am not necessarily saying that there is not more to it. However, I am VERY risk adverse when it comes to legal issues.

[Sumthinwicked]

hell the clips are worth 100 together LOL just toss the gun i guess is an option for some poeple and keep the clips/// or maybe send in for the first strike stuff :p

[Frizzle Fry]

People who ordered one without reading the explicit warnings on the sites where they are lucky that Tiberius is doing this. A friend of mine considered buying a few SA-8s and that was the first question asked. When it says "not for recreational play" that's what it means! Tiberius isn't (and shouldn't be) obligated to accept returns of any kind on them.

[BenoitOWN]

It is a markething terms as the difference is within the reg and no relief valve for ''velocity spike'' wich most paintball marker and side arms doesn't have and have been good for paintball use.

All paintball markers are weapon wich are why it shoud not be sold to person under 18years old wich many many people don't do that.

Gift certificate? Doesn't cost Tiberius a penny until we use it to buy a Tiberius marker at full cost from their store as I don't think it will be accepted elsewhere.

If we can get ours at the field legal speed well it shoud be accepted and not be considered unsafe.

Plus most Tiberius users may not have the relief valve working. If they doesnt know the purpose of it and they see it vents many would just screw it all the way in.

[Frizzle Fry]

It is a markething terms as the difference is within the reg and no relief valve for ''velocity spike'' wich most paintball marker and side arms doesn't have and have been good for paintball use.

All paintball markers are weapon wich are why it shoud not be sold to person under 18years old wich many many people don't do that.

Gift certificate? Doesn't cost Tiberius a penny until we use it to buy a Tiberius marker at full cost from their store as I don't think it will be accepted elsewhere. You're right, it doesn't cost Tiberius until you buy from them and use your giftcard. Guess what? They don't owe anyone anything. They just don't want people running around on fields (or off fields) playing paintball with dangerous self defense weapons which are clearly marked as such... If anything the people who thought it was worth "risking it" are being afforded an undeserved opportunity to get a marker that was intended for (and is safe for) recreational paintball play.


If we can get ours at the field legal speed well it shoud be accepted and not be considered unsafe.It's a fixed velocity valve. Springing and drilling can help, as can adjusting input pressure, but those are basically "jury rigs" or "kluges". Even with a voided warranty, any resulting accident could cost Tiberius a lot of money in lawsuits (which they'd probably end up settling outside of court). It could also cost the field a lot of money in suits because the gun (not marker, gun.) is branded as not being for rec play

Would you really be so selfish as to place the field and manufacturer in jeopardy just to save $100 or so on your marker? Even given that the company has gone out of their way to make sure that people get reimbursed and then some for the guns they purchased knowing that they weren't intended for rec play?

[DevilMan]

Alright, well since I currently own a T9 and an SA8, I figure I can put in my .02. Here's the way I see it.

I understand Tiberius not wanting the market flooded with these things. I know the price of the T8 has come down a bit but, with the cost of the mags from Tiberius being about $50 each, a person who buys the SA-8 can ditch the gun and still be the same as buying from Tiberius. PLUS, the SA8 mag has a tool free CO2 changer. Something the Tib mags do not have. Or at least on the ones I have.

Also some are angry with Tiberius for throwing this out as being dangerous. Think of the legal standpoint from them. If they even ONCE mention that they are fine and good to go for PB use, then the millisecond that something goes down you can bet their butt would be over a bonfire! Now that could be a very GOOD reason for them to say what they are saying. They understand how "news" travels in the PB world and it would be suicide to ever admit that they were fine for PB use. That said, I don't think that it is 100% the reason they are saying not to use them. I think they do in general care and do not want someone to get hurt. But if that were the case then they should be moving to outlaw PAINtball in general. But again, it is a 2 fold part as to with Tiberius wanting them off the market it gets more of their product off of the shelf.

Next, lets look at it from the bizness side of things. I don't think that Tiberius would have made and sold to PepperBall (PB) if they (PB) said, you build em, we'll buy em, then we'll sell em for a few hundred less than what you are asking for yours. NOR do I think that was PB's intentions. THIS IS PURE SPECULATION AND THERE IS NO FACTUAL BASIS AT ALL THAT I AM AWARE OF!!!!! I think what happened is this... We know that PB can sell the "POLICE" and "MILITARY" stuff at crazy prices right? I mean what is the Tippman 98 that they sell compared to what you can get in any store? So that said, here's what I think happened. I think PB contracted Tiberius to build them the SA8's. I think they chose the blue and the orange as "safety" colors and fully intended to sell only to military and police forces. AGAIN THIS IS HYPOTHETICAL!!!!! YOU HAVE NO PERMISSION FROM ME TO COPY OR DISTRIBUTE THIS DATA!!!! Let's say that Tiberius built PB 10K SA8's. 5K in Blue, 5K in Orange. So PB sells these on their site for LE and MIL use at say, $500 (NOTE: Not the current price) So they have 10K guns selling for $500 each. So they are doing their thing and all is good. So say they sell 9K of the SA8's to LE and MIL use BEFORE the economy takes a digger and they are left sitting on 1K guns that noone is buying due to cut backs and what not. So say they only paid $100 for each kit from Tiberius due to the bulk contract. They are now sitting on $100,000 of inventory that isn't looking to good on moving out any time soon. So they offer them up at a discount price of $100 a kit to cover the cost they have in them to clear out the stock and get their $$$ liquified so they can pour it into other things. Then us cheap paint ballers catch wind of the deal what you have now is the result.

So PB, did not intend to in the beginning to blow them out at cost. But after making a profit of $400 on each one that they sold at $500 they can stand to do it. EVEN IF say they paid Tiberius at $200-$300 a set, still they have made money on the deal. Because not only have they sold the pistols and mags at a slight profit, but they have sold the balls and rest of the stuff to go with em at a profit.

AGAIN THIS IS UNFOUNDED SPECULATION!!!!! Just the way I see things.

So there you have it... Tiberius says they are unsafe so that they can't be touched if anything goes wrong because you know the second anything hits the media it'll be a poop storm of epic proportions. They also say that to help their cause and get more funds in their pocket. PepperBall says they are fine so they get them off their inventory sheet. And since they say, "NOT FOR RECREATIONAL USE" on them they can't be touched if something happens on a PB field with one. So their collective *** is covered.

It's no different than anything else in this nanny'fied country. Put disclaimers on EVERYTHING and you can't be touched by the lawyer. Should you dry your cat in the microwave? NOPE!!! But someone, somewhere tried it and so there it goes.

Again this is just my take on the deal.

Now who wants to buy an SA-8 and T9????

:D

DM

For reference, I don't have a PTI price sheet, but I have a few LEO friends that I think I could find out the LE and MIL cost on this stuff.... But tell me what you see here ~>

http://www.pepperball.com/law/products.html#launchers

The DYE LockLids can be found here ~>
http://www.pepperball.com/pdf/PTI_Accessories_Info_Sheet_0404.pdf

I see Tippmans, DYE Locklids, VL200 Hoppers, 13CI and 47CI tanks, Scuba Fill Stations and Tanks and 12 Grams. The PTI stuff I see that you can't get at most paintball stores are the "HotShot", the "FlashLauncher" and the SA-4 Launcher.

[WUNDERWAFFEN]

I saw a magazine spread of FN Herstal's new lineup and they had an FN branded SA-8/T8 in their less lethal product line. It was all black. FN Herstal makes the Scar & P90 firearms as well as the FN303.

I did buy an SA-8 package but it was only because I already own a T8 & was looking to buy another two magazines anyway. I figured that it was a great deal and if something was up with the gun hopefully I would be able to use some parts as spares on the T8.

I think it is fantastic that Tiberius is doing the trade-in program. It is a very smart thing by them & only means more business. But again they could have put out a warning of this magnitude before Pepperball dumped all of its stock to unwary buyers.

I have contacted Tiberius about this & am waiting on the details of the trade-in program. I am trying to determine if I only have to send the gun in since I would really like to keep everything else.

The people that are whining about Tiberius ruining their plans should load up one of the supplied rounds & try the gun on themselves. The thing is a beast & should not be allow on the field.

What about this J.O. who is trying to sell just the SA-8 gun for $90 when he got the whole bundle for $99. Great job mods by locking his thread down.

<a href="http://s137.photobucket.com/albums/q211/Doug_262/?action=view&current=Pepperball1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q211/Doug_262/Pepperball1.jpg" border="0" alt="Pepper SA-8 Warning"></a>

[pump]

so if you adjust the SA8 to 290fps will it shoot over 290fps in a way different from any other paintgun would shoot over 290fps after being set at 290fps?

like an unusual form of spiking?

[Sumthinwicked]

hermm is all i have to say

[MANN]

so if you adjust the SA8 to 290fps will it shoot over 290fps in a way different from any other paintgun would shoot over 290fps after being set at 290fps?

like an unusual form of spiking?

I have not seen mind do so. mine is set for 280, and it shoots 280, and I let it sit for a day and rechrono it, and it still shoots 280.

These are not weapons no more than an automag or autococker. Tiberius is just doing the CYA method so they dont get beat in a lawsuit. Everyone running around saying that they are "unsafe" is hilarious.

[Beemer]

These are not weapons no more than an automag or autococker. Tiberius is just doing the CYA method so they dont get beat in a lawsuit. Everyone running around saying that they are "unsafe" is hilarious.


Yes yes they are weapons and are labeled and sold as such and not for Rec use by the manufacture.
They are made and sold AS LESS LETHAL weapons.

Paintball guns simply say......"this is not a toy". Unsafe is hilarious? Dont even get me started on how STUPID paintball is when it comes to safety. Remember TWO people have died because of Paintball STUPID.





____________

http://home.comcast.net/~beemerone/AoIL.gif

[MANN]

They are made and sold AS LESS LETHAL weapons.

Paintball guns simply say......"this is not a toy". Unsafe is hilarious? Dont even get me started on how STUPID paintball is when it comes to safety. Remember TWO people have died because of Paintball STUPID.


Yes, and cars are not meant to be driven above 70, and motorcycles should not be driven on one wheel. People die everyday doing stupid stuff. If two people died then they were probably doing something they should not have done (I am kinda curious on how it happened).

The facts are that if everyone wears a mask, and chronos their markers under 300 there is no problems to be had.

Safety warnings are nothing more than a CYA expression. The same way MCD puts hot on their coffee, and some kid toys say that an item could cause a choking hazard.

The pressure spikes that one would get with a SA-8 is probably the same thing that someone with a T-8, automag, spyder would get.

[Beemer]

^^^^^^You just dont GET IT. Read what it says on the side of the WEAPON.

No other Paintball gun has this engraved on the side of it. ;) "NOT FOR RECREATIONAL USE"



This product was produced and sold only for use as a less than lethal weapon.

End of discussion. :argh:

[MANN]

End of discussion. :argh:

we are staying civil here. plus breakfast wont be ready for another 30 min or so.

[teufelhunden]

Wow.. since when did the above become AO? AO was always filled with reasonable and mature adults (or almost adults) who generally viewed themselves as (and acted as) protectors of the game. Protecting it from agg kiddies, protecting it from (what they viewed as) unscrupulous businesses, and protecting it from negative outside viewpoints as a means of keeping it on the societal up and up.

But now it's filled with people who see no problem with taking a piece of equipment engineered to be used as a weapon (that meaning something meant to cause physical harm and damage), playing garage tinkerer, and deciding its safe to shoot at other people who aren't physically threatening....

Sorry, that seems stupid. Even if your gun shoots 290 every single time, you're still an idiot playing with it. The one time that someone takes a PB to the eye from your 290 fps modified military/law enforcement weapon, either via your negligence or theirs, you are going to get murdered by any mediocre litigator -- you aren't playing with a toy like everybody else, you're playing with military surplus weaponry. The injured party had an expectation that everybody would be playing with toys, and your actions of using a military surplus weapon caused great physical and emotional harm to the injured party and his family. So pay up... probably not cheap. Also, the property owner will get dinged (especially if it's a real field and not outlaw, because they allowed someone to play with a military surplus weapon), probably try to go up the ladder to the retailer, wholesaler(s), and manufacturers too.

Additionally, you probably run a serious risk of being charged with a crime or a few, after all, you're assaulting someone...

Does any of this really seem that far fetched to any of you?




IANAL.

[MANN]

Does any of this really seem that far fetched to any of you?


I think it is very possible. Would it make a difference if player A was shooting an emag @ 400fps or a SA-8 at 400fps? would that change the tragic event of someone getting killed? The end result is the same; the only difference being the marker. Neither marker would be used according to its owners manual.

[Beemer]

Does any of this really seem that far fetched to any of you?

ummmmmm NOOOOOOOOOO. But then again paintball got stupid.

Mann.........its still all about THIS.



This product was produced and sold only for use as a less than lethal weapon.
NOT FOR RECREATIONAL USE

[MANN]

^^^ ummmmmm NOOOOOOOOOO. But then again paintball got stupid.

Mann.........its still all about THIS.

I agree. there are way too many people that play that dont understand how it should be played as a "game"

My only problem with banning something like this from a field is that there are too many modified markers out there that do not have every safety feature that they should. IMO if a marker can shoot below 280 I dont see a reason to not use it.

It would be interesting if fields did not allow custom/modified markers. No thumb velocity adjusters, no markers with cut off trigger guards, no safeties, only certain proven electronics, etc, etc. Would we want to play at a field with this many restrictions? Where you are not allow to "tinker" with your marker?

If I take a LLW and modify it. Does it than become a "safe" marker?

[Lohman446]

I have not seen mind do so. mine is set for 280, and it shoots 280, and I let it sit for a day and rechrono it, and it still shoots 280.

These are not weapons no more than an automag or autococker. Tiberius is just doing the CYA method so they dont get beat in a lawsuit. Everyone running around saying that they are "unsafe" is hilarious.



. First, it is important to understand that this product was never intended for any recreational activity and was not designed to fire .68 paintballs. This product was produced and sold only for use as a less than lethal weapon.

It is also important to note that while this weapon appears similar to our Tiberius 8 (aka. T8, Tac 8, Tag 8) paintball pistol, internally there are numerous differences which makes their use in painball dangerous.

This means the SA-8 is missing key safety components designed for the sport of paintball. We realize that paintball player’s who purchased an SA-8 didn’t realize that what they were purchasing wasn’t suitable for paintball.

Mann, TK and Budd Orr never released statements such as the above. That is the major and important difference. Bought as a weapon and modified is different than bought as a paintball marker and modified. I mean I could modify a large bore revolver to fire paintballs using light charges I imagine, but it would not make it reasonable.

[Beemer]

I agree. there are way too many people that play that dont understand how it should be played as a "game"

My only problem with banning something like this from a field is that there are too many modified markers out there that do not have every safety feature that they should.

Agreed, some even come from the factory that way. The list is long. Like I said Paintball got stupid since I started Playing. That is why ALL my GUNS are set to OEM specs and I have an umbrella policy to CMA. ;)

[smeek]

If I take a LLW and modify it. Does it than become a "safe" marker?

No you have to start with something designed and intended for marking trees not people. :rolleyes:

[MANN]

Bought as a weapon and modified is different than bought as a paintball marker and modified.

I somewhat agree, but if you start with product A and product B, and modify A to make B are they the same?

I understand the legal aspect of it. Tiberus does not want people to use these because they could be held liable (especially with some of the wacko judges out there today). If a field owner asked me not to use mine I would have no problem. The same way if they asked me to only shoot 3bps, or mech only. Its their field we have to play by their rules. Same with handguns. On my property I make the rules on your property you make the rules.

I am talking more of the actual product. I guess I dont understand how just stating that a marker is a LLW automatically makes it one.

[MANN]

No you have to start with something designed and intended for marking trees not people. :rolleyes:

That is sorta what I was talking about earlier. Some of my old markers were not anywhere near as adjustable as an SA-8. Oh and remember when we wore shop goggles to play. That use to be the "norm" I am sure those are not "safe"

[Beemer]

Oh and remember when we wore shop goggles to play. That use to be the "norm" I am sure those are not "safe"

They werent and its why they are outlawed. Who says RAMPING is SAFE????? Thats not legal if you follow ASTM standards.

[smeek]

Yea, I view this more as a legal concern than a true player's safety concern. I'm not sure on the differences or missing safety features of the T8 vs. SA8, but most fields have an arsenal of LLW clones as their rentals. What are the differences between Tippmann 98s and A5's and their LLW counterparts? A stock Tippmann fits the description of the SA8's lacking safety features since the only reg is on the bottle, and there's no over pressure blow off either.

[MANN]

Who says RAMPING is SAFE????? Thats not legal if you follow ASTM standards.

I agree. That is sorta why I am wondering why everyone is upset about this marker not having a low pressure relief valve, and being called a LLW. If half of the gear on the field is not up to standards than who cares about a guy with an orange/blue pistol?

[Smoothice]

This thread is funny.

"modify" and "garage tinkerer" both made me laugh.

So simply turning down a markers velocity is modifying? Using a markers built in and supplied velocity adjuster is tinkering?

Should I get a license to use a Allen key before adjusting the velocity on any of my markers?

If I have a laserer engrave "the world is flat" on my marker does that make it true?

[Lohman446]

I somewhat agree, but if you start with product A and product B, and modify A to make B are they the same?

I understand the legal aspect of it. Tiberus does not want people to use these because they could be held liable (especially with some of the wacko judges out there today). If a field owner asked me not to use mine I would have no problem. The same way if they asked me to only shoot 3bps, or mech only. Its their field we have to play by their rules. Same with handguns. On my property I make the rules on your property you make the rules.

I am talking more of the actual product. I guess I dont understand how just stating that a marker is a LLW automatically makes it one.

It does - think about a jury of twelve people, none of whom have likely played paintball and some who might be against it and against any private ownership of weapons. All the "convincing" you will try to convince them it was ok to play with will be lost in the above statements from Tiberius stating it was a weapon. Even if it was IDENTICAL (which it is not) to the marker you would be screwed because of what it was called. If any part was at all different, you are just more screwed

[Beemer]

This thread is funny.

You laughing at me???? :nono:

[smeek]

It does - think about a jury of twelve people, none of whom have likely played paintball and some who might be against it and against any private ownership of weapons. All the "convincing" you will try to convince them it was ok to play with will be lost in the above statements from Tiberius stating it was a weapon. Even if it was IDENTICAL (which it is not) to the marker you would be screwed because of what it was called. If any part was at all different, you are just more screwed

The question then is why is the SA8 any more likely to hurt someone than a T8 or any other gun if you chrono within the field limit? You guys sound like if you use the SA8 you will hurt someone, when it's not much if any more likely than with any other maker.

If you're lawyer lets antigun nuts in the jury they already failed.

[MANN]

It does - think about a jury of twelve people,

I can see the same jury ruling on the grounds of:

"You adjusted your velocity too high. You meant to cause harm"
"Your marker wasn't made by a professional manufacturer"
"You used a marker that did not meet astm standards"
"You added one too many shims to your ULT, and your marker fires a round upon airing it up. You shot someone in the "safe zone" and its all your fault"

I personally am not worried about a lawsuit. I keep all my markers below 300, and I can control who and what I shoot at. If a person can't maybe they should not be playing. Remember guns dont kill people, people kill people. (same with paintball markers/sticks/knives/pencils)

[Ando]

Oh and remember when we wore shop goggles to play. That use to be the "norm" I am sure those are not "safe"
Reason being Uvex said their goggles couldn't be used anymore. ;)

I'm in the middle with all this, I see Tiberius side and reasoning behind putting this all out on the table. They're telling everyone it's not alright to use on a field to cover their backside. That's 100% understandable. I for one wouldn't want to be shot by one until I know for sure it's shooing under 300 (I grew up in the 300 club. 285 is for LOOOOZERSSS!!!!).

The SA8 was made by a paintball manufacture (Tiberius) and for the most part are exactly like the T-8's. They're "adj", use the same size rounds, clips, Co2, and from what I read most of the internals are the same so why can't they be used? Cause of a warning label? That's the part I don't get nor are they answering. If it walks like a duck and quacks like one then... :rolleyes:

IMO...If a manufacture is that worried about their product, they need to recall the whole lot and fix it so the clips are incompatible, none of the parts are interchangeable...ect. No mater what they do next to a recall, they're still going to be held liable due to that fact. They made a "weapon" that was interchangeable with a "big-boy toy".

They've got to be stupid to think the SA8 wasn't going to make it onto a paintball field and I mean that in the nicest way. :)

[Beemer]

I can see the same jury ruling on the grounds of:

"You adjusted your velocity too high. You meant to cause harm"
"Your marker wasn't made by a professional manufacturer"
"You used a marker that did not meet astm standards"
"You added one too many shims to your ULT, and your marker fires a round upon airing it up. You shot someone in the "safe zone" and its all your fault"


Yup, wait for it. Its the OTHER guy you have to be concerned about.

[Smoothice]

You laughing at me???? :nono:

me? Never! :p

[Lohman446]

I can see the same jury ruling on the grounds of:

"You adjusted your velocity too high. You meant to cause harm"
"Your marker wasn't made by a professional manufacturer"
"You used a marker that did not meet astm standards"
"You added one too many shims to your ULT, and your marker fires a round upon airing it up. You shot someone in the "safe zone" and its all your fault"

I personally am not worried about a lawsuit. I keep all my markers below 300, and I can control who and what I shoot at. If a person can't maybe they should not be playing. Remember guns dont kill people, people kill people. (same with paintball markers/sticks/knives/pencils)

There is some point there. I carry a fairly sizeable personal liability blanket policy. If something happens my insurance company is going to defend me and go after the person who sold me the marker. If it was sold and reiterated as not to be used for recreational activity its going to all be on me, and might rise to a level of negligence that voids my policy. I would be further concerned with the criminal side of it if something serious happened. Again, semantics being what they are it is clearly sold as a weapon and clearly noted that it is not safe (nor can it be readily made safe) for play. Keep in mind I also deeply hold a precept that it is "good" to not cause suffering of another. I bend this ever so slightly to allow me to play paintball, because everyone involved knows what is going on. If I ever went outside of the rules and caused suffering it would have negative consequences.

I ask myself another question here. *IF* I allowed my daughter to play (I don't, and frankly it has a lot to do with the "its safe enough" attitude that I can't control of other players) and something happened that was caused by someone using one of these my reaction would probably be far more inappropriate than it would be from someone using a paintball marker. I worry that "this is just like a paintball marker" attitude being described here is a lot like the "15 balls a second when bunkering my opponent is ok". Its not ok, if it were ok the manufacturer would not have sold them as LL and reiterated the point. *IF* you survived my reaction I would push my attorney not only to make sure you owned nothing but to make sure the DA pressed charges - since its not a paintball marker in Michigan those would be felony firearm related charges.

"They should have made the magazines different" Then we would be still having this discussion. These were never intended to be sold to the public, and I would not be surprised if Tiberius is currently looking for a remedy from Pepperball.

[Lohman446]

For those of you who don't seem to get it I will post the manufacturers statement one more time. Because this is the statement you would have to disprove if something were to happen. I will bold the parts that would cause you the most problems. I guess you could try to claim it was to vague, or that somehow they hinted it could be modifed. Most reasonable people would laugh at the assertion considering what they have publically stated. When I agree to play paintball I agree to play against paintball markers, not against less lethal weapons. Mann, some of your statements hold water about other causes. However I use equipment that came from a recognized paintball manufacturer and follow there instructions on the safe use of such. I have a leg to stand on, at least to some degree.


Originally Posted by MCB
It has come to our attention that Pepperball Technologies has released for sale to the public the SA-8 pistol which our company, Tiberius Arms manufactured for them based on their specifications. In the interest of public safety and customer satisfaction we felt it important to provide the general public with additional information about this product. First, it is important to understand that this product was never intended for any recreational activity and was not designed to fire .68 paintballs. This product was produced and sold only for use as a less than lethal weapon. It is also important to note that while this weapon appears similar to our Tiberius 8 (aka. T8, Tac 8, Tag 8) paintball pistol, internally there are numerous differences which makes their use in painball dangerous. After receiving and closely analyzing the SA-8, many of those who have purchased them have noticed that many parts are different. Many of the SA-8’s were built with a non-adjustable regulator and all were built with a fixed pressure relief valve. This means the SA-8 is missing key safety components designed for the sport of paintball. We realize that paintball player’s who purchased an SA-8 didn’t realize that what they were purchasing wasn’t suitable for paintball. Safety is of primary importance in the sport of paintball and manufacturer’s, distributor’s and player’s all have a responsibility to insure the equipment they are selling and/or using functions in a safe manner. Player’s attempting to refinish or rework an SA-8 for use in the sport of paintball are putting themselves and other player’s at risk. Tiberius Arms wants to do our part to ensure that these products are not used in the sport of paintball. Accordingly we will be working with field owners so they can recognize Tiberius manufactured less lethal products that are not suitable for use in the sport of paintball. In addition we would like to offer all of those who purchased an SA-8 Bundle with the intention of using it for paintball the opportunity to return said kit to us in exchange for a $100 Tiberius Arms gift certificate. Those with questions should contact Eric Bratten with Tiberius Arms at eric@tiberiusarms.com


Best regards,
Eric Bratten
VP Sales & Marketing
Tiberius Arms
260.478.2500 ext. 235
260.572.2210 fax
Eric@tiberiusarms.com
Tiberius Arms

The defense "I knew better than the manufacturer" tends to be a very poor one.

[smeek]

I get it you didn't have to repost the statement. My view of the statement is, like you said, Tiberius never expected these for public sale and as such, they probably aren't on their liability insurance, which is why we get such strong warnings to not use them on field. I still don't see how something that can reliably shoot at legal paintball speeds is inherently more dangerous than other paintball markers.

The exchange allows Tiberius to sell guns they have in stock, that are on their insurance policy while they get parts back in stock and guns that might not be covered out of public hands. It's win win for them.

Either way I don't plan on buying either pistol and I leave the decision on if SA8s are used at fields I play at to the field owner, and their insurance. I'm guessing I won't see them too often.

[Lohman446]

I'm curious how many are actually out there. I would *guess* less than 100, and likely less than 50. There may be a lot of discussion about things that most of us will never see.

[smeek]

I wonder that too. I didn't know about the $99 package until this thread, so the announcement may be counter productive as it's also advertising PB's deal.

[Smoothice]

I still don't see how something that can reliably shoot at legal paintball speeds is inherently more dangerous than other paintball markers.

Because it isn't. People want to continue harping on the legal aspect of it. Thats fine. Whatever helps them sleep at night.

Fact is these can and do shoot at field safe speeds with NO modifications or tinkering.

Lets hope Tiberius doesn't put out a statement calling for mass suicides... :tard:

[DevilMan]

I have a question..... If on every marker sold... it states.... "THIS IS NOT A TOY"


Then what is it?

DM

[Whee McGee]

In my personal opinion (which means bupkis, I know), this is a purely legal statement Tiberius is releasing to attempt to cover their rear if (or should I say when?) an event takes place where someone is injured with an SA-8. Modifications have already been designed and implemented in the tinkerer community to make the relief valve adjustable, which, according to those who have completely dismantled their SA-8s and compared them to Tac-8s, is the main difference between the two and the evident "lack of key safety feature" Tiberius is talking about. If the velocity of the pistol can be set to safe use, and is shown to consistently shoot within the allowed range, and can even be modified to correct the one thing Tiberius MIGHT have a legitimate claim to, there should be no issue in using it (unfortunately, that's not how things work this day in age :rolleyes: ).

I have two SA-8s, and while I have not used them in play, I have chrono'd and shot several mags worth of paint within the acceptable velocity range.

[Frizzle Fry]

This thread is funny.

"modify" and "garage tinkerer" both made me laugh.

So simply turning down a markers velocity is modifying? Using a markers built in and supplied velocity adjuster is tinkering?

Should I get a license to use a Allen key before adjusting the velocity on any of my markers?

If I have a laserer engrave "the world is flat" on my marker does that make it true?

It's a fixed-velocity valve. So no, that's not the same. :rolleyes:




Because it isn't. People want to continue harping on the legal aspect of it. Thats fine. Whatever helps them sleep at night.

Fact is these can and do shoot at field safe speeds with NO modifications or tinkering.

Lets hope Tiberius doesn't put out a statement calling for mass suicides... :tard:

Really? Screw your field over then. Non-lethal accidents occur all the time at fields with 280fps velocity limits, and if you'd ever worked at a paintball field you'd know that the standard recommendation of lawyers in most cases is "settle". Include the fact that someone is using an airgun branded specifically as a weapon with cautions against recreational use and the settlement would cost your field more than they probably have. It's also ILLEGAL so perhaps you should consider that before taking such a silly risk. Granted you won't get in trouble, your local field will and the MFG will, so I guess that makes it OK?

I spent $85 shipped on my SA-8 with 2 magazines... Tac-8s with one mag can be found for as low as $185. Take into account the $100 gift card from Tiberius, and you could have a FIELD LEGAL Tac8 for what essentially amounts to $160, plus a free magazine ($40 value). That brings the cost to $120 for a new Tac-8 with 2 magazines. Why cause trouble if that's the alternative?

[MANN]

It's a fixed-velocity valve. So no, that's not the same. :rolleyes:


I can adjust the velocity on mine fine. There is an allen head that allows you to adjust the pressure on both of my SA8s

[MANN]

I'm curious how many are actually out there. I would *guess* less than 100, and likely less than 50. There may be a lot of discussion about things that most of us will never see.

I would guess over 200 SA-8 at least.

[RehKal]

Ultimately I think it boils down to the fact that the SA8 is sold as a WEAPON, not as a marker. That should be simple enough, regardless if all the internals were exactly the same. It's designed, classified and sold as a weapon. Which makes it a weapon. Not something to use on a paintball field.

If I were a field owner I wouldn't allow them to be used on my field, simply for the same legal reasons that Tiberious put out their statement. You can bet if anyone is ever hurt by one of these, both the owner of the SA8 AND the field owner will be sued. And as with any kind of extreme sport, it's probally just a matter of time until it happens.

[Mongoose]

I gotta say i am 50/50 on this.
I can see truth in both sides and each has a great argument.

My thought is, If they are both basically the same, Why not just use a tac 8?????

What benefits are gained by using the SA-8 on the paintball field?

[RehKal]

I gotta say i am 50/50 on this.
I can see truth in both sides and each has a great argument.

My thought is, If they are both basically the same, Why not just use a tac 8?????

What benefits are gained by using the SA-8 on the paintball field?

I believe the idea is that's its cheaper.

Which brings up another good point. Are you going to be happy with yourself if you hurt someone in your attempt to get something cheaper?

[cougar20th]

. I mean I could modify a large bore revolver to fire paintballs using light charges I imagine, but it would not make it reasonable.

The militarty has"bullets" that are what you speak of. I used to have some. They definatly were not something you wanted to get hit with.


Now ive got a question about the SA8 & PB fields. Someone uses a SA8 injures another player. Will the fields insurance cover the injury or not. Im thinking mostlikly not due to the "Not for recreational use" engraving. That & the fact that is is NOT a paintball gun.

That is enough of a reason for any field to ban the SA8.

[Frizzle Fry]

That is enough of a reason for any field to ban the SA8.
qft

[MANN]

Will the fields insurance cover the injury or not. Im thinking mostlikly not due to the "Not for recreational use" engraving. That & the fact that is is NOT a paintball gun.


There was a time when I was trying to purchase field insurance. The would not allow full auto/markers above a certain bps. All markers that could not be controlled below 300fps were also not allowed (automag with rt). How many fields do you know of that enforce this rule? Also is there any way of telling who shot who. Half of the time you dont know who shot who.

[Frizzle Fry]

There was a time when I was trying to purchase field insurance. The would not allow full auto/markers above a certain bps. All markers that could not be controlled below 300fps were also not allowed (automag with rt). How many fields do you know of that enforce this rule? Also is there any way of telling who shot who. Half of the time you dont know who shot who.

The problem is that most fields, even when they're completely in the right, settle outside of court. That's mostly because there just isn't that much legal precedent and both lawyers and insurance companies would rather just make things go away. If someone says "A player was using a gun made for shooting pepper spray projectiles and the field owner was OK with it" (not quite accurate, but that's something like what would be said) then a judge will find in their favor for whatever is asked in damages. That's encouragement not to settle (and settling outside of court is already rough on fields).

[BigEvil]

Has anyone asked if Tiberious will convert them over to Tac 8s? It shouldn't take much.

[MANN]

Has anyone asked if Tiberious will convert them over to Tac 8s? It shouldn't take much.

according to some on mcb tiberious is saying that there are "too many differences".

[Lohman446]

If I shoot someone with something that was manufactured and sold as a weapon I am not playing a game. If injury results civil issues might be a secondary concern.

[classicmagplayer]

All the liability and butt covering aside.

"We realize that paintball player’s who purchased an SA-8 didn’t realize that what they were purchasing wasn’t suitable for paintball."

Excuse my ignorance of the backstory, but how in the world did that happen?





Has anyone asked if Tiberious will convert them over to Tac 8s? It shouldn't take much.

Why convert when you can exchange? More cost effective to simply give the customer a Tac 8 off the shelf and resell the SA-8 than it is to take apart the SA-8, change out parts, give the customer their converted marker, reassemble the parts into a new SA-8, and resell it.

[DevilMan]

If I shoot someone with something that was manufactured and sold as a weapon I am not playing a game. If injury results civil issues might be a secondary concern.

Well since they manufacture Bow N Arrow kits, BlowGun kits, and you can even use mortars and sling shots to propel a paintball, not to mention the mines and grenades, I'd be hard pressed to call ANY of those things TOYS. And if you are trying to decode what is and is not a weapon, well I think that's going to be a can of worms all in itself.

Again, there are markers that are on the field that have no safeties on them, and there are those that have no trigger guard. There are some that are even home made to some extent.

DM

[DevilMan]

All the liability and butt covering aside.

"We realize that paintball player’s who purchased an SA-8 didn’t realize that what they were purchasing wasn’t suitable for paintball."

Excuse my ignorance of the backstory, but how in the world did that happen?

Why convert when you can exchange? More cost effective to simply give the customer a Tac 8 off the shelf and resell the SA-8 than it is to take apart the SA-8, change out parts, give the customer their converted marker, reassemble the parts into a new SA-8, and resell it.

Because it's not a straight exchange. The deal is a $100 credit. That still leaves the person making up another $85+ in some cases. Does Tiberius have to do this. NO. But it's not a straight trade.

DM

[DevilMan]

If I shoot someone with something that was manufactured and sold as a weapon I am not playing a game. If injury results civil issues might be a secondary concern.

If you shoot someone with something marked as "NOT A TOY" then what are you doing?

You "PLAY" with TOYS??? What do you do with paintball "GUNS" & "MARKERS"

Pretty much every sport has an item in it that if used incorrectly can kill or maim either the user or someone else. Look at bowling? Darts??? Golf?? Horseshoes? Hockey? OH NO what about BASEBALL??? Is a Baseball bat a TOY? If used incorrectly it can kill you no???

blah blah... you are trying to split hairs. Tiberius is trying to cover their butt, and that's all fine and well. If your marker chronos within the field limit then what's the issue? Do you honestly believe that the SA8 is the only thing out there that is capable of putting out a hot shot? What about when the inline reg goes bad and you start pumping 800 PSI to the valve. I bought an angel years back that when I took it to the chrono it was showing 450 and 475 FPS.... Did I play with it??? NOT UNTIL I FIXED IT, and got it within the field limits.

You all talk about the mag and the relief valve. Yes that is true it has one. Have you ever turned your mag up to max PSI before it starts leaking out the back and see what FPS you are putting down range? Why don't you look and see, and I think you'll find that even with the safety blow off, that it can still push up to almost 500 FPS before it lets it leak off.

DM

[classicmagplayer]

Because it's not a straight exchange. The deal is a $100 credit. That still leaves the person making up another $85+ in some cases. Does Tiberius have to do this. NO. But it's not a straight trade.

DM

Doesnt really matter that it is not a straight trade, they wouldnt do a free conversion either.

They should offer the trade up in addition to an option for a return for full refund. Giving a customer no other option but to spend more money is not customer friendly at all.

"We realize that paintball player’s who purchased an SA-8 didn’t realize that what they were purchasing wasn’t suitable for paintball." Were sorry for your misinformed purchase, you can now spend more and get what you thought you were purchasing in the first place.

By not offering a refund they are leaving one and only option for customers who dont want to spend more money, resell the gun to someone who doesnt know any better. Here is a perfect example: http://splatme.co.uk/paintball-gun/paintball-pistol-paintball-gun/tiberius-sa-8-paintball-pistol-marker.htm first link when searching for "SA8 paintball" on google.

[DevilMan]

Doesnt really matter that it is not a straight trade, they wouldnt do a free conversion either.

They should offer the trade up in addition to an option for a return for full refund. Giving a customer no other option but to spend more money is not customer friendly at all.

"We realize that paintball player’s who purchased an SA-8 didn’t realize that what they were purchasing wasn’t suitable for paintball." Were sorry for your misinformed purchase, you can now spend more and get what you thought you were purchasing in the first place.

By not offering a refund they are leaving one and only option for customers who dont want to spend more money, resell the gun to someone who doesnt know any better. Here is a perfect example: http://splatme.co.uk/paintball-gun/paintball-pistol-paintball-gun/tiberius-sa-8-paintball-pistol-marker.htm first link when searching for "SA8 paintball" on google.

The thing is Tiberius did NOT sell these. PepperBall did. It's like a car lot selling you a chevy that they know is leaking and about to go in the crapper but they sell it to you anyway, then you get stuck on the side of the road and want to blame Chevrolet for the issue. It's not up to the maker. Tiberius did not make these for the "public" so to speak. So they are trying to offer up your money back since the package cost you $100. They are giving you the $100 back towards one of their products.

Tiberius is not needing to or responsible at all with the program. I don't fault them for what they are doing and find it very nice of them in fact. But this has grown and grown into a matter of what can and can not be used on a field to launch a gelatin ball filled with colored goo at each other. The way I see it, you play by the chrono rules, the full auto rules, the safety rules, then you are good to go.

In terms of "Full Refund" that should come from PepperBall NOT Tiberius.

DM

[Lohman446]

If you shoot someone with something marked as "NOT A TOY" then what are you doing?

You "PLAY" with TOYS??? What do you do with paintball "GUNS" & "MARKERS"

Pretty much every sport has an item in it that if used incorrectly can kill or maim either the user or someone else. Look at bowling? Darts??? Golf?? Horseshoes? Hockey? OH NO what about BASEBALL??? Is a Baseball bat a TOY? If used incorrectly it can kill you no???

blah blah... you are trying to split hairs. Tiberius is trying to cover their butt, and that's all fine and well. If your marker chronos within the field limit then what's the issue? Do you honestly believe that the SA8 is the only thing out there that is capable of putting out a hot shot? What about when the inline reg goes bad and you start pumping 800 PSI to the valve. I bought an angel years back that when I took it to the chrono it was showing 450 and 475 FPS.... Did I play with it??? NOT UNTIL I FIXED IT, and got it within the field limits.

You all talk about the mag and the relief valve. Yes that is true it has one. Have you ever turned your mag up to max PSI before it starts leaking out the back and see what FPS you are putting down range? Why don't you look and see, and I think you'll find that even with the safety blow off, that it can still push up to almost 500 FPS before it lets it leak off.

DM

Difference between being marked not a toy and not for recreational activity. Severe difference between being marked not a toy and a manufacturer specifically stating it is not intended or safe for paintball.

[classicmagplayer]

The thing is Tiberius did NOT sell these. PepperBall did. It's like a car lot selling you a chevy that they know is leaking and about to go in the crapper but they sell it to you anyway, then you get stuck on the side of the road and want to blame Chevrolet for the issue. It's not up to the maker. Tiberius did not make these for the "public" so to speak. So they are trying to offer up your money back since the package cost you $100. They are giving you the $100 back towards one of their products.

Tiberius is not needing to or responsible at all with the program. I don't fault them for what they are doing and find it very nice of them in fact. But this has grown and grown into a matter of what can and can not be used on a field to launch a gelatin ball filled with colored goo at each other. The way I see it, you play by the chrono rules, the full auto rules, the safety rules, then you are good to go.

In terms of "Full Refund" that should come from PepperBall NOT Tiberius.

DM


I agree in that case, PepperBall should be the one doing the refunding.

Its a bit ridiculous that Tiberius is offering this exchange up program, but the PepperBall site doesnt even mention something like "This is not suitable for recreational paintball use".

Its like PepperBall is running under the assumption that paintball players will never hear of the SA-8 and the price for the gun and 2 clips vs the cost of the Tiberius models.

[MANN]

You will still end up losing if you send it to tib. Most of the shipping on the markers was 20 bucks, and shipping to tiberius and paying for shipping back to you for your new marker will also add up. You figure you are going to spend 140 for 100 worth of product.

[RehKal]

Well since they manufacture Bow N Arrow kits, BlowGun kits, and you can even use mortars and sling shots to propel a paintball, not to mention the mines and grenades, I'd be hard pressed to call ANY of those things TOYS. And if you are trying to decode what is and is not a weapon, well I think that's going to be a can of worms all in itself.

Again, there are markers that are on the field that have no safeties on them, and there are those that have no trigger guard. There are some that are even home made to some extent.

If you shoot someone with something marked as "NOT A TOY" then what are you doing?

You "PLAY" with TOYS??? What do you do with paintball "GUNS" & "MARKERS"

Pretty much every sport has an item in it that if used incorrectly can kill or maim either the user or someone else. Look at bowling? Darts??? Golf?? Horseshoes? Hockey? OH NO what about BASEBALL??? Is a Baseball bat a TOY? If used incorrectly it can kill you no???

DM

That's just it. All those things are designed, tested, manufactored and approved for use in the sport of paintball. The SA-8 IS NOT. It's that simple. The SA-8 IS NOT MADE FOR PAINTBALL. Why take the chance and use it?

This isn't about misusing something made for the sport. This is about using something that isn't designed for the sport.

[DevilMan]

That's just it. All those things are designed, tested, manufactored and approved for use in the sport of paintball. The SA-8 IS NOT. It's that simple. The SA-8 IS NOT MADE FOR PAINTBALL. Why take the chance and use it?

This isn't about misusing something made for the sport. This is about using something that isn't designed for the sport.

All of those things WERE NOT MADE FOR PAINTBALL in the beginning, BUT they were found to be safe as such. Has any testing been done on the SA-8 that deems it UNSAFE? NO. It simply says that it was NOT MADE FOR. Neither was any of the other stuff in its initial form. Was WD40 made for CIVILIAN use??? NO!

My point is, the SA8 may not have been produced FOR paintball. BUT, there is nothing that says it can't be used as such from a safety standpoint. The only "claim" out there is that it wasn't MADE as such.

If the SA8 can be found to operate within the safety parameters set forth by the field to comply with, then that's where it should be. IF it is found that it can NOT perform within the legally set/sanctioned safety guidelines than YES pull it. Right now, I see no difference in it's ability to pull a hot shot any more than any other marker on the field. They are ALL capable of shooting above the 300FPS legal limit. (TigerSharks excluded :) ) But as long as it can be adjusted as it stands in stock form with the given tools the same as any other marker can be without altering the item then it should be found to be OK to use. Has anyone found that its unsafe to use? NO. There has only be the statement from Tiberius stating that they were not produced to be used in this manner. SO WHAT! Most of the stuff was not made to be used in this manner.

My point is, if the SA8 can be made to operate within the guidelines then there should not be an issue. You can run on the hypotheses all day long about what may or may not happen, but if you look at the founding of the carbon fiber bottle I bet you'll also find that they were not made initially to be used in paintball.

Do you see any warnings on radio controlled trucks that say NOT MADE FOR PAINTBALL???? Have you ever seen someone use one on a PB field? If not go to a scenario sometime. Have you ever seen a warning on a wooden knife that says NOT MADE FOR PAINTBALL? Were they made for paintball? NO!!!! But they can be used if found to be used in a safe manner. Can you hurt, maim or kill someone with a wooden or plastic knife? YES. Are they allowed to be used? YES. If done so following proper safety guidelines.

The definition between "WEAPON" and "TOY" is about as grey as the definition of "KNIFE", "TOOL", "CUTTING UTENSIL" and "EDGED WEAPON". A pen and pencil can be used as a WEAPON. A piece of newspaper can be made into a WEAPON. The point being, the definition of such covers such a wide range of things, that saying anything that can be used to cause harm is a "WEAPON" then you'll have to start getting fingerprinted to buy fishing line, guitar strings, paint stripper, bleach, and 90% of anything else out there. And if you think for a second that something can't be weaponized, then just take some to a prison and give it out to the inmates and see what they come up with for ya.

DM

[DevilMan]

AGAIN!!! Do not read this as I find the SA8 to be 100% safe to use on a PB field. BUT, I do believe that saying "IT SHOULD BE OUTLAWED BECAUSE IT WAS NOT MADE FOR PAINTBALL" is WRONG. If it can be found to not be safe to operate then sure thing pull it off. BUT since these WERE MADE FOR POLICE AND MILITARY USE... Don't you think they are built just as safe as anything else that you'll find on the field?

Just because they can be adjusted to shoot at a higher FPS than 300 FPS does not make it an automatic ban. If that were the case most guns out there would not be allowed. If it is found that it can't safely operate BELOW that or whatever limit the field sets then YES it should not be used.

Right now there is no foundation that it can not be operated within the limits.

DM

[Frizzle Fry]

"IT SHOULD BE OUTLAWED BECAUSE IT WAS NOT MADE FOR PAINTBALL" is wrong

I agree completely.

"It should be outlawed because it was made to be a "less-lethal"* personal defense weapon" is more accurate.




*"Less-Lethal" is very different than non-lethal. It doesn't mean it won't hurt or kill you, it means it's less likely to hurt or kill you.

[DevilMan]

I agree completely.

"It should be outlawed because it was made to be a "less-lethal"* personal defense weapon" is more accurate.




*"Less-Lethal" is very different than non-lethal. It doesn't mean it won't hurt or kill you, it means it's less likely to hurt or kill you.

Are cars made to be LESS LETHAL Weapons? NO! But if you try to run someone over, you'll get tagged with "Assault with a deadly weapon" Same as a ball bat, a crow bar, an axe handle and many other things.

So are you saying that all other paintball guns are NON-LETHAL?

So since PepperBall sells those Tippmanns does that mean that all Tippmanns should be outlawed as well? Since PB sells theirs as "LESS LETHAL WEAPON OF SELF DEFENCE"???

DM

[DevilMan]

They werent and its why they are outlawed.

I don't think that saying that goggles are OUTLAWED is a true statement. I think they are not used as much anymore because it hurts to take a PB in the face. BUT the wearing of goggles such as those for ski'ing, dirt biking, and such is still allowed.

DM

[Frizzle Fry]

Are cars made to be LESS LETHAL Weapons? NO! But if you try to run someone over, you'll get tagged with "Assault with a deadly weapon" Same as a ball bat, a crow bar, an axe handle and many other things.

So are you saying that all other paintball guns are NON-LETHAL?

So since PepperBall sells those Tippmanns does that mean that all Tippmanns should be outlawed as well? Since PB sells theirs as "LESS LETHAL WEAPON OF SELF DEFENCE"???

DM

Very true, but the fact of the matter is that these are branded as less-lethal weapons. I'm aware that a car, frying pan, or even a "shod foot" (or foot with a shoe on it) can be considered a weapon in court, but they are only considered such under circumstances when they are used as a weapon. A gun, tazer, or pepperball launcher is considered a weapon even when it's not being used, brandished or wielded.

I agree with you completely about the function of the gun; if it works it works, if it's safe it's safe. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way from a legal standpoint and I can understand 100% why Tiberius doesn't want these used for paintball, and why fields won't allow them. Frankly, I'd just obliterate the markings on mine and use it. If you don't remove the signs that it's an SA-8 not a Tac8, you're putting your field and the company at risk.

[DevilMan]

BTW, I don't think PepperBall should be responsible for offering a refund. It is NOT their duty to ask you what you plan on using the SA8 for. It is not their responsibility to make sure you don't shoot a cat, a road sign, a tree, a skunk, a dog, your principals car or even each other with it. They state that they are free and clear of any liability on how it's used when you buy it.

It's not on them to fix what you break. This nanny'fication of the masses is going to kill us all.

Do any of you know the rules and regs on the purchase of ATV's?

Any of you ever ride ATV's????

Well here are the rules that more than likely you broke...

Age of Operator................ ATV Engine Size
Under 6 years of age......... No operation recommended
Age 6 to 11..................... Under 70cc.
Age 12-15....................... 70-90cc.
16 years and older............. Over 90cc.

Do you realize that you are legally able to DRIVE A CAR ON THE ROAD!!!! At the same age as you are allowed to ride a quad with an engine greater than 90cc!!!!!

More reading....

Power and Speed. The Consumer Product Safety Commission (CSPS) has issued an ATV Safety Alert regarding engine size suggestions for young riders. The CPSC considers that an adult size ATV has an engine of 90cc and greater and suggest youth be at least 16 years old to operate an adult size ATV.
AN ADULT SIZED ATV IS 90CC OR GREATER!!!! Anyone over 18 years of age on this site ever ridden a 90CC quad????

So do any of you have any idea how big a 90cc quad is???? Compared to a 12-15 year old kid? Even a SMALL kid is still way big on such.

Do you realize that if you go into a store and tell the sales person you are looking for a new quad for your 13 year old son, that by LAW they can not let you buy any quad in the store over 90cc in size???

If you think this is irrelevant to the subject it's not. It goes hand in hand with the release of liability. If you go into a store and tell them you want to buy a quad for your son for his birthday they can ask you anything in the world about him, and as long as you choose not to disclose his age you can buy what you want. If you state that you want to buy something that you and he can share and you tell them the age then you'll be sharing a 90cc or less with him. The liability for the use is transferred from the store to YOU upon the purchase of the vehicle. IF the store says, sorry this can only be used to pull a wagon and nothing else, and you use it without a wagon, then the fault is on you. It is NOT the companies responsibility to make sure you use their product correctly. This has been found and proven when a few of the major cities went back on the firearm manufacturers and tried to sue them all for damages caused by firearm use. If there was a homicide or a suicide or a rape or anything that caused damage to the city, they tried to get the firearm makers to pay them for the damages. It was thrown out.

DM

[DevilMan]

Very true, but the fact of the matter is that these are branded as less-lethal weapons. I'm aware that a car, frying pan, or even a "shod foot" (or foot with a shoe on it) can be considered a weapon in court, but they are only considered such under circumstances when they are used as a weapon. A gun, tazer, or pepperball launcher is considered a weapon even when it's not being used, brandished or wielded.

I agree with you completely about the function of the gun; if it works it works, if it's safe it's safe. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way from a legal standpoint and I can understand 100% why Tiberius doesn't want these used for paintball, and why fields won't allow them. Frankly, I'd just obliterate the markings on mine and use it. If you don't remove the signs that it's an SA-8 not a Tac8, you're putting your field and the company at risk.

See I don't agree with this FF. If you KNOWINGLY take the markings off and go to a field that STATES they are not to be used, then you are still violating the policy.

I'm fine with a field saying not to use them.... IF they are found to be UNSAFE. There is nothing that points to this. It's the same as a field that says NO RED PAINT!!!! If you shoot red they pull you. Is there any reason that you shouldn't be allowed to shoot red paint for safety reasons? NO! But it's house rules. They say not to use it, so don't use it.

The point I am trying to make is before everyone goes out and starts up that they are in fact unsafe, why don't someone offer up proof or a logical reason. I'm sorry, but "Because I said so" don't fly to far with me. If Tiberius wants to clear their name from the issue, which they have done then all is cool on their side. If they can be found to be faulty or unsafe in use as dictated by the field then sure pull them. BUT, don't do it just because the maker wants them off. Am I suggesting that I'd like to see someone get hurt or killed from one of these??? NO!!! BUT, until some concrete data comes to light about a malfunction of sorts that is KNOWN to be a danger they should not be limited.

It's like saying, "Because your car don't have a parking brake it's a danger" Why???? Should it have one? Is it a safety device of sorts? But is it illegal that yours is broken or don't work or out of adjustment? Can you get killed because of it's in operation??? Possible, but not likely.

DM

[Frizzle Fry]

See I don't agree with this FF. If you KNOWINGLY take the markings off and go to a field that STATES they are not to be used, then you are still violating the policy.

Correct, but like you said, in function they're safe. I agree that if they shoot 280 they're fine. If you want to make yours into a Tac8 with some clever paint work then there won't be a problem.

The problem arises when you have a marker on the field that says "Not For Recreational Play" and is listed as a less-lethal self defense weapon. It's not a safety issue it's a legal issue.

[DevilMan]

Correct, but like you said, in function they're safe. I agree that if they shoot 280 they're fine. If you want to make yours into a Tac8 with some clever paint work then there won't be a problem.

The problem arises when you have a marker on the field that says "Not For Recreational Play" and is listed as a less-lethal self defense weapon. It's not a safety issue it's a legal issue.

True enough, but I would prefer that it not be an issue with the field in general. Meaning I would rather have it properly done from the top down. Not try to fix it from the bottom up. I would rather the rules and laws be in such a manner that there is no question on the lower level. Meaning, the rule states 280FPS. Your gadget, gizmo, whirlygig, apparatus, device, gun, marker, et al meets the criteria then you are good to go. Your gun decides mid day to malfunction then you get pulled from the field and get it fixed. You aren't allowed to use it. As long as it meets the safety guidelines.

I would rather it be logical and proper and not a reaction and charley foxtrot.

DM

[Frizzle Fry]

True enough, but I would prefer that it not be an issue with the field in general. Meaning I would rather have it properly done from the top down. Not try to fix it from the bottom up. I would rather the rules and laws be in such a manner that there is no question on the lower level. Meaning, the rule states 280FPS. Your gadget, gizmo, whirlygig, apparatus, device, gun, marker, et al meets the criteria then you are good to go. Your gun decides mid day to malfunction then you get pulled from the field and get it fixed. You aren't allowed to use it. As long as it meets the safety guidelines.

I would rather it be logical and proper and not a reaction and charley foxtrot.

DM

Agreed.

I've worked at two fields over the years and we have enough trouble with people keeping their $100 blowbacks under 300fps and their $1000 electros under 15bps. All it takes is some moron overshooting a 14 year old kid and giving him a "bloody bruise" and suddenly the waiver means nothing... Then you're in court talking to a judge about field netting and referees for 6 months, and it all culminates with your insurance company saying "Give them lots of money and they'll go away, or we'll give them lots of money and we won't go away".

Frankly, the best solution would be to have assessors from major insurance companies meet with field owners, players, ASTM committee members and paintball manufacturers so they can have a real understanding of what goes on. Once a precedent is set (other than the current one which consists of "pay the man") the cost of running a field will go down, so will legal tension about such simple issues. Right now the laywers and insurers shrug, and the judges hear and see "gun" and think "victim".

[Lohman446]

There are two issues here, and they seem to be getting confused. Two arguments come up:

Argument A: The SA-8 can be made as safe as any paintball marker. <---- for the purpose of discussion I am going to leave the can alone on this. I am going to note the manufacturer has said they cannot be but I will accept that there may be legal reasons they have said it.


Argument B: Using an SA-8 exposes the user and field to unacceptable liability risks.

The arguments are not mutually exclusive. They could both actually be true. The thing is, I don't believe any paintball marker 100% safe. Injury can (and does) result. Legal claims against those responsible can (and do) result. The difference is this. If I am using a paintball marker at least I can look up and say with full confidence I was using an item intended to be used in a recreational activity - specifically the game of paintball. I cannot say this with an SA8. I can say that "but I modified it so it would work" but the counter that the manufacturer EXPLICITLY stated it could not be done safely would overwhelm me.

As I said on MCB. I am pretty comfortable allowing others to play with whatever on the paintball field as long as it will consistently chrono at the field speed. I accept the level or risk involved. Do note that I believe the risk high enough that my child does not play paintball, and will not at a commercial field in the current environment of stupidity. I would not use an SA8 on the field, even one that had been modified and demonstrated to shoot at a "safe" speed. The liability risk (and I maintain it would be both civil and criminal) risk is FAR too high for me. I am amazed at the amount of risk I perceive people willing to take for a couple hundred dollars. I pay good money to isolate myself from that risk.

Either you are telling me my perception of the liability issue is totally wrong. Not just overblown, wrong. Of course I will hear "well you are not a lawyer". I have actually discussed paintball with my lawyer and insurance agent in the past. No one who tells me "you are not a lawyer" has any intention of seeking council on it, its a straw man defense. I am amazed at the amount of liability some people seem willing to accept to save a couple hundred dollars. I think I have to agree with Beemer on the mindset of players on that one.

And yes, it would be an issue. Think of these questions if someone is injured.

"So you used a modified weapon to play the game with and it resulted in injury?"

"The proper equipment would have cost you $200 more, is that correct?"

"The manufacturer offered you full credit to the purchase of the proper equipment"

I will ask you this simply. Was it worth it? Consider it for a moment. Beemer is right. My safety is worth far more than $200 to me. So is yours when we are playing. Unfortunately in modern paintball it seems I cannot expect the same consideration.

[DevilMan]

Lohman, I don't read the note from Tiberius as stating that the SA8 can NOT be adjusted to be safe. I read it as it's stated. It was not PRODUCED as such. That's all I'm getting at. Again my stance is just because it was not MADE to be used on a paintball field does not mean that's its unsafe to do so.

BTW, the SA8 I currently have in my possession does NOT have on it "For Police and Military Use Only"

You see, I'm not opposed to safety being enforced on the field. I'm opposed to the reaction of masses in that it's "DANGEROUS" and a "WEAPON" and all the other crap. You as a shooter should know this. Can you tell me ANY firearms manufacturer that supports or endorses "hot loading" a cartridge?

DM

[Coralis]

All I'm going to say on the subject is that if me or my wife get hurt by someone shooting one of these guns they can expect criminal and civil action being initiated. So I have to ask is it worth it ?

[Loguzzzzzz]

All I'm going to say on the subject is that if me or my wife get hurt by someone shooting one of these guns they can expect criminal and civil action being initiated. So I have to ask is it worth it ?Sounds like a threat. . . . .People of Ocala Florida and surrounding areas be warned!!!


Does this mean that you are going to run around the field with a chrono too and check every gun that you or your wife get eliminated by too? Afterall they could be shooting in excess of 300 fps. which is in violation of the ASTM standards for paintball markers and I am sure is puishable in some way if you really looked hard enough. That is the only real difference other than a warning meant to protect the manufacturer.

I guess you will be checking every gun on the fields where you play as well. Since most of the time, I never know who has eliminated me. Good luck with that one.

If you are worried about being hurt then maybe paintball is not the sport for you, I have had welts that did not completely fade in over one year. Paintball is a dangerous sport and has assumed risks. All I can say is you better have a hand chrono ready in case you get welted in the field it, it could be an outlaw paintballer shooting hot.

[Coralis]

If you are worried about being hurt then maybe paintball is not the sport for you, I have had welts that did not completely fade in over one year. Paintball is a dangerous sport and has assumed risks. All I can say is you better have a hand chrono ready in case you get welted in the field it, it could be an outlaw paintballer shooting hot.

One of the assumed risks is that people on the field will be using equipment designed for paintball not less than lethal weaponry. Paintball is not a dangerous sport in my 24 years of playing I've seen only a handful of injuries any only one caused by a paintball and it was the kids own fault for taking his mask off in a game.

[RehKal]

All of those things WERE NOT MADE FOR PAINTBALL in the beginning, BUT they were found to be safe as such. Has any testing been done on the SA-8 that deems it UNSAFE? NO. It simply says that it was NOT MADE FOR. Neither was any of the other stuff in its initial form. Was WD40 made for CIVILIAN use??? NO!

My point is, the SA8 may not have been produced FOR paintball. BUT, there is nothing that says it can't be used as such from a safety standpoint. The only "claim" out there is that it wasn't MADE as such.

If the SA8 can be found to operate within the safety parameters set forth by the field to comply with, then that's where it should be. IF it is found that it can NOT perform within the legally set/sanctioned safety guidelines than YES pull it. Right now, I see no difference in it's ability to pull a hot shot any more than any other marker on the field. They are ALL capable of shooting above the 300FPS legal limit. (TigerSharks excluded :) ) But as long as it can be adjusted as it stands in stock form with the given tools the same as any other marker can be without altering the item then it should be found to be OK to use. Has anyone found that its unsafe to use? NO. There has only be the statement from Tiberius stating that they were not produced to be used in this manner. SO WHAT! Most of the stuff was not made to be used in this manner.

DM

AGAIN!!! Do not read this as I find the SA8 to be 100% safe to use on a PB field. BUT, I do believe that saying "IT SHOULD BE OUTLAWED BECAUSE IT WAS NOT MADE FOR PAINTBALL" is WRONG. If it can be found to not be safe to operate then sure thing pull it off. BUT since these WERE MADE FOR POLICE AND MILITARY USE... Don't you think they are built just as safe as anything else that you'll find on the field?....


:rofl: You apparently didn't read the statement Tiberius released about the SA-8. Lemme quote some lines for you.

"First, it is important to understand that this product was never intended for any recreational activity and was not designed to fire .68 paintballs."

and

"This means the SA-8 is missing key safety components designed for the sport of paintball."

That's pretty clear that the SA-8 isn't intended or safe for paintball. And are you really saying most of the stuff isn't made for paintball? So all the markers, masks, protective gear, hoppers, etc aren't made for paintball? If not made for paintball what are they made for? Marking cattle or trees? :rofl:

And actually no I don't believe the SA-8 was made with the same safety considerations that all other paintball gear. The SA-8 is made TO STOP PEOPLE AS A LESS LEATHAL WEAPON. Which means it WILL HIT HARDER. It is designed to bring a person down, to stop them without killing them. That's why we also have modified grenade launchers and shotguns that shoot beanbags. This thing isn't designed to give someone a tiny bruise and bit of a string when it hits them.

It's designed to bring a person to their knees and make them stop whatever they are doing.

And quite frankly, a standard paintball marker ain't gonna stop someone on a rampage.

[Smoothice]

And actually no I don't believe the SA-8 was made with the same safety considerations that all other paintball gear. The SA-8 is made TO STOP PEOPLE AS A LESS LEATHAL WEAPON. Which means it WILL HIT HARDER. It is designed to bring a person down, to stop them without killing them. That's why we also have modified grenade launchers and shotguns that shoot beanbags. This thing isn't designed to give someone a tiny bruise and bit of a string when it hits them.

so when loaded with the same make and model paint and shooting at the same velocity as a tac8. You think an sa-8 will "hit harder"?

So the name alone will cause it to hit harder? Do you work for smart parts or do you just believe in their marketing?

[RehKal]

so when loaded with the same make and model paint and shooting at the same velocity as a tac8. You think an sa-8 will "hit harder"?

So the name alone will cause it to hit harder? Do you work for smart parts or do you just believe in their marketing?

The name has nothing to do with it. It's the internals. Which Tiberius have allready said can't be easily changed to be the same as the Tac-8. It's the safety mechanisms in particular that Tiberius says ARE NOT THERE.

Pay attention and don't insult, it degrades your arguement. :D

[Smoothice]

The name has nothing to do with it. It's the internals. Which Tiberius have allready said can't be easily changed to be the same as the Tac-8. It's the safety mechanisms in particular that Tiberius says ARE NOT THERE.

Pay attention and don't insult, it degrades your arguement. :D

Please explain to me how if two markers are shooting at the same fps with the exact same paint how 1 can "hit harder"?

[RehKal]

Please explain to me how if two markers are shooting at the same fps with the exact same paint how 1 can "hit harder"?


Have you done extensive shot to shot testing on the SA-8? Or did you shoot two or three times over a chrono and say that's good enough?

Different safety mechanisms (or lack thereof in this case) means things like shot to shot consistency can change dramatically. The SA-8 doesn't have to be consistent because you aren't overly concerned with NOT causing harm. You just don't want to kill the person being shot. Therefore, it can hit harder.

And by extensive shot to shot testing I don't mean pulling the trigger once every 5 to 10 seconds or shooting just 200 rounds through it.

Try shooting fast, shooting slow and run a couple CASES of paint through it. Then tell me it's consistency.

[Loguzzzzzz]

I would like to know how many of these people have seen the internals of the SA8 compared to the T8 to see how different they really are.

They're about as different as a Classic valve compared to an X valve. The dump chamber and the power tube are the main differences. One has an adjustable relief valve and one has a fixed pressure relief valve. The SA8 has a different main regulator spring. The rest of the parts are the same except for the reciever engraving with the warning on it.

I understand the legalites off all of this but when engineering concepts and practice along with common sense are applied here there is really very little difference save for the engraving.

As I said earlier, in my opinion there is no difference between an SA8 shooting 320 -330 fps and an automag (or anyother paintball gun for that matter) shooting at the same velocity other than a warnings (one states it is not a toy and the other says it is not a toy and that it is not intended for recreational use) put onto them both to satisfy the liabilities aspect of things.

[MANN]

Some people on mcb chronoed their SA8s many times. It seems that if you chrono it @290, and invert the marker in warm temperatures that you can get a velocity spike as high as 340fps. This was not the norm, but did happen a few times.

Can other markers with CO2 have the same problems? yes. It is not uncommon for a tippmann or spyder(clone) to have 50 fps velocity spikes on a warm day. They do not have built in pressure relief valves.

So is 340 dangerous? Not really. Could it bruise/break skin? sure, but so can 300. Can it break through a mask? Highly unlikely. I remember when I started playing in the mid 90s we did not own chronos. Everyone shot their marker at a certain tree, and you would kinda guess to see if it shot too fast. (I know high liability, blah, blah, blah. Then again we were all friends playing)

So how can we fix the problem of causing these "outrageously high" velocity spikes?

The easiest way is chrono low @ 260. Not that scientific, but It would keep you close to 300. Your consistency is not going to be great, but it will be on par with a spyder, tippmann, etc.

The hard way is to fill your fill chamber with spacers. Keep your marker set on the high velocity (shooting over 400fps from the factory), and fill the dump chamber with some type of spacer. PA(1)=PA(2) for you science people. This would allow your marker to vent automatically at the chance that you get liquid co2 in your dump chamber. You dont have to worry about changing springs, adjusting anything. The hard part is to figure out how much volume needs to be replaced. I am fresh out of paint, and need to get more 12ies. None the less that is the easiest solution if you are worried about these causing catastrophic damage.

Of course if your field does not allow these you are still sol. Me personally I dont care. I will just set mine low. I am not the type to carry a spare marker with me anyways.

[Smoothice]

Have you done extensive shot to shot testing on the SA-8? Or did you shoot two or three times over a chrono and say that's good enough?

Different safety (or lack thereof in this case) means things like shot to shot consisteny can change dramatically. The SA-8 doesn't have to be consistent because you aren't overly concerned with NOT causing harm. You just don't want to kill the person being shot. Therefore, it can hit harder.

And by extensive shot to shot testing I don't mean pulling the trigger once every 5 to 10 seconds or shooting just 200 rounds through it.

Try shooting fast, shooting slow and run a couple CASES of paint through it. Then tell me it's consistency.

So instead of answering my question you change your argument? Good call...

[Frizzle Fry]

So instead of answering my question you change your argument? Good call...

Sounds like a question more than an argument?

Anyway I'm out of this one; people just don't (and won't) agree and frankly I think only 3 of us have actually fired and disassembled the marker anyway.

[Smoothice]

Sounds like a question more than an argument?

Anyway I'm out of this one; people just don't (and won't) agree and frankly I think only 3 of us have actually fired and disassembled the marker anyway.

Agreed. No one is going to change their mind on this one.

I've fired and disassembled mine ;)

Then polished the internals :D

[Loguzzzzzz]

I've fired and disassembled mine ;)

Then polished the internals :D
^^^^^ what he said^^^^^

:D
:ninja:

[CatoRockwell]

The argument keeps going over the same stuff so let me see if I've surmised the views:

1. physically it is the same as a paintball marker and is technically no more dangerous than one. So it shouldn't be treated any different by the pb community just because it was labeled differently so Tiberius can make more money off of them.

2. It has been identified by the manufacturer as a LLW not a recreational item. Therefore from a legal standpoint you are more liable as a player, field owner, or manufacturer.

You are both right, there is no more point in arguing about this:
Any rational person who has experience in the sport recognizes that a label doesn't make something mechanically different.
However, you have to realize that Americans are stupid, and in our sue-happy I'm-not-responsible-for-my-actions-the-big-bad-business-man-is world if this ever got taken to court you would be screwed because of a label.
It's not right, but thats how our jacked up country is.

View#1 you are right, ideally we should judge things for what they really are, not just what a label tells us. However, you need to understand that in our jacked up society it is not ideal and juries and the public will just see the label. You will not only find yourself screwed, but it will also have a negative effect on the paintball community.

View#2 you are right, legally that label is all that matters. However, just because a manufacturer labeled something as a LLW, despite being virtually identical according to all owners I've heard from, does not mean that it is not just as safe or unsafe for paintball.

As a Concealed Weapons Permit holder, I daily have to recognize the difference between what is right & what the law is. In my mind I have every right to carry a firearm and to use that firearm if I fear for my property or life. Unfortunately, because of the media, and a pussified american people who have a phobia with firearms, I have to walk a very thin line and be extra careful not to step beyond what a Jury would define as reasonable action.

Laying the matter to rest. Field owners will determine what they determine, and Outlaw fields will continue to allow anyone who chronos their "contraption" to play.

[MANN]

Laying the matter to rest. Field owners will determine what they determine, and Outlaw fields will continue to allow anyone who chronos their "contraption" to play.

That about sums it up

[Lohman446]

Update from Tiberius


First I would like to thank the many members that supported our efforts to help player's who may have purchased an SA-8. Those who really know us realize that our motive on this is not profit, it is safety. Thanks as well to all of you have have contacted us to return these products, the efforts to promote safe play are commendable and the spirit that help further our sport.

Second, it was not my intention to post the safety warning and walk away as though that would be the end of it. As one of the members who called the office noted I was out of the office, actually on vacation with my family at Disney World. The fact is I was notified of this issue several hours before getting on a plane. I contacted Pepperball to make sure they knew who their $99 price was attracting, paintball players, not those interested in a less lethal launcher. Since they weren't acting on the matter I pulled time from my family to try and help a situation that was obviously snowballing fast.

Third, Tiberius Arms did not sell these products to any retail customer, Pepperball did, so we aren't trying to cover any liability issues we are trying to address a legitimate safety concern.

I will be honest, I have not read through all of the posts so I apologize if I don't address every question posed but I will do my best to cover the major/recurring issues that have been raised.

First, the SA-8’s are not paintball markers, they are Pepperball launchers, and despite what many are posting there is a big difference. While paintball markers without overpressure relief valves may exist they do not operate in the same manner as our markers. Most lack regulators all together and are therefore designed to operate using CO2 full pressure, our system is not. Most markers featuring a regulator are designed with either a relief valve, or a failure point (that is to say an o-ring/solenoid gasket, etc. that is designed to give out before over pressurization becomes a safety issue), the SA8 lacks this feature. It is important to note that many SA8's may be able to be adjusted to below 300fps, however in the event of a regulator o-ring failure they lack the ability to vent and maintain a velocity that is safe for paintball. {Note: Many have sited the Automag which is a decent example, most didn't realize the have a pressure relief (probably because they didn't want it tampered with). As many who have used an Automag with CO2, or turn the velocity way up can attest they begin leaking out of the back of the regulator, the SA8 does not.} I am not going to debate every form of every marker ever made, even if other markers were/are capable of this failure it does not mean we believe it is safe and most importantly they don't have our name on them.

Second, could we try to manufacture a relief assembly as a drop in replacement, yes, do we feel that is a prudent course of action, no, and here is why. First, the SA-8 Pepperball launchers are etched “Not for recreational use” and were colored in blue and orange (known training and less lethal color choices of the police and military) for a reason. If we make exceptions to this because paintballers thought they found a deal that was too good to be true (and was), we would be doing all of the agencies who use our less lethal equipment a disservice. Additionally we would be telling fields that saw the “Not for recreational use” warning to ignore it, a very dangerous precedent to set. We would also further the incorrect assumption that less lethal weapons can be safely used for paintball. Many are right about the fact that we could try to make this for very little and sell it for a lot to those who are stuck with a purchase that isn’t what they thought it was...this should show our motive is not profit. Despite many peoples assumptions we didn't over extend ourselves by selling to Pepperball, they have chosen to sell these products at a huge loss, which is there right.

Likewise our effort isn’t to reward paintball player’s who purchased SA-8’s, as it has become clear to me that most knew that it was not be a wise decision. We are not demanding anyone return their SA-8, they are a wonderful product for home defense or law enforcement applications. What we are doing is making sure that players who go out to participate in a fun day of play at their local field aren’t subject to unnecessary risk as a result of another player’s careless “good deal”. So many have asked if we are going to "tell fields about these"? Yes, we have a professional and ethical obligation to do so to protect players and field owners. We make no apologies about this point and are amazed the risks people are willing to take to I have experienced a lot of “too good to be true(s)” in my time and can’t remember one where I was offered the chance to get out of that bad decision with nearly as much as we have tried to offer paintball player’s who purchased an SA-8.

As a result of speaking with many SA8 purchasers, reading these forums, and attempting to provide as many opt outs as possible we have decided to offer a $50 gift certificate for those wishing to return only the SA8 launcher. As most have noted the magazines alone are worth $100, so this provides a potentially better fit for many.

Gift Certificates are redeemable directly through Tiberius Arms (all products priced at MAP). I will be posting a complete list of products/prices shortly.

I respect that not everyone will agree with our efforts, or believe our motives but as a company we are really trying to do an honorable thing.

[CatoRockwell]

Well there you have it. You've got to at the very least give Tiberius credit for staying in touch with the online community.

[FutureMagOwner]

I don't see saving a few bucks by buying a LLW is worth the risk of being subject to ADW charges and serious jail time. No matter how you justify it in your mind, that can happen a lot easier with this than it can any paintball marker.

[pump]

damn how unsafe is the SA8?
will it blow up? cut you? or just shoot hot?
if it just shoots hot, how hot?

[Smoothice]

I don't see saving a few bucks by buying a LLW is worth the risk of being subject to ADW charges and serious jail time. No matter how you justify it in your mind, that can happen a lot easier with this than it can any paintball marker.

Most of these were purchased under the assumption they were identical to a tac8. Then when people started receiving them it was confirmed that they came shooting hot but could very simply be turned down to shoot under 300fps.

[FutureMagOwner]

Most of these were purchased under the assumption they were identical to a tac8. Then when people started receiving them it was confirmed that they came shooting hot but could very simply be turned down to shoot under 300fps.

It has nothing to do with the velocity of it, it is not for recreational use, that isn't an assumption it was very clear. No matter how safe or unsafe it may be, it is not for use in paintball. It is classified as a less lethal WEAPON, and if you intentionally use it on the field you are running the risk of being charged with 1st degree assault with a deadly weapon and criminal negligence. I know that can happen with legitimate paintball marker as well, for example people doing drive by's and taking someones eye out. That is because the marker was not used for its intended purpose (on a recreational field with consenting parties, proper safety rules, etc). Using this pistol on a field is the same case, it is not meant to be on a paintball field.

I understand from a mechanical aspect it is the same as other paintball guns, but it is not a paintball gun. Again, I will make the point that it is not worth taking that risk to save a few bucks, this isn't some ploy by TA to get you to spend money on a full price pistol. It is to cover their ***, because of something pepperball did, and to cover the asses of the people who bought these pistols. They don't want to see people getting hurt, and going to jail because they wanted to save some cash by buying equipment meant for the military.

[CatoRockwell]

Now come on guys let's not start all this again. We know that mechanically it's a paintball gun but a cop, a judge, and a jury are only going to see the label. The last thing paintball needs right now is negative publicity.

[Lohman446]

Can paintball rounds be shot from a PepperBall launcher?

No. PepperBall Technologies, Inc. does not suggest nor can we warrantee your purchase of our projectiles or launchers should use them in any products other than those you purchase from PepperBall. This policy protects our customers from potential problems at the time of product usage


In fairness to Pepperball they have taken some back, and do have a FAQ on the sight for anyone who might have thought to question why it was labeled an SA8 rather than a T8. Though it sounds like they have not made the distinction on the main sight those who had looked into the differences would have found this.

[hitech]

There is really only one thing that matters. An SA8 is NOT a paintball marker, therefore it is NOT allowed on any paintball field. it wouldn't matter if it was made EXACTLY like a T8 with a different name. Only paintball markers are allowed during paintball games, and with good reason.

Yes, an SA8 can probably be used as a paintball marker and be as safe as some existing paintball markers. However, it is not a paintball marker and should never be used in a game. Add to everything that the manufacturer has stated it is not safe and all discussion of using it in a game should end.

Off topic, does anyone know where you can purchase the Fist Strike rounds in the new bulk packaging (100 ct)? Yup, I'm now the proud owner of a T9 with FS conversion kit. I no longer shed vortices. :clap:


Added: I hadn't read the post from Tiberius. That kinda settles it, don't ya think.

[Smoothice]

it wouldn't matter if it was made EXACTLY like a T8 with a different name.
.

Walks like a duck, quakes like a duck, tastes like a duck, looks like a duck. Must be a bear... :tard:

But legally speaking you are right...

[hitech]

If they (Tiberius) simply took an T8 and changed the name to SA8 and added the "NOT FOR RECREATIONAL USE" inscription to it then it becomes something other than a paintball marker. THAT decision is not up to the player, period. We can't have individuals deciding this. If we did eventuially some idiot would end up playing with an FN303 with the weighted rounds!

[Enemy]

Walks like a duck, quakes like a duck, tastes like a duck, looks like a duck. Must be a bear... :tard:

But legally speaking you are right...


hmm maybe one reason is the lack of an over pressure blow off valve, the other might be that many of the sa-8s didnt have an adjustable reg.

so per the manufacturer that has been stated multiple times these are not t-8s and should not be used as such.

your argument still persists at if you can get it at limits than its all good but what if your reg fails and without the blow off you dont recognize it and zing me your buddy in the back of the head with a 600 fps shot, not so safe now huh.

Its just a matter of general safety equipment and a lack there of so as such just settle with the idea that while a fun thing to have and a good deal these just shouldnt be used on a field.

But as tracker always says stupid finds a way :cheers: bro see you soon.. hopfully

[Smoothice]

hmm maybe one reason is the lack of an over pressure blow off valve, the other might be that many of the sa-8s didnt have an adjustable reg.

Read the post I quoted and you will understand my comment.

This was the part I quoted
Originally Posted by hitech
it wouldn't matter if it was made EXACTLY like a T8 with a different name.

Key word is EXACTLY.

[Enemy]

Read the post I quoted and you will understand my comment.

This was the part I quoted

Key word is EXACTLY.


4pgs later i started skipping through :rolleyes: all i read was they arent the same and for some odd reason i didnt put much weight into the they are the same arguments...and to further make my point more valid :clap: :bounce: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :wow: :clap:

[Smoothice]

4pgs later i started skipping through :rolleyes: all i read was they arent the same and for some odd reason i didnt put much weight into the they are the same arguments...and to further make my point more valid :clap: :bounce: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :wow: :clap:

Well have you seen the latest? Apparently their is a tac8-R on the market. It appears to have a fixed relief valve just like the s-8's. I'm sure there are differences. At least I sure hope there are!!

I traded my s-8 in for a blem tac-8. I just wanted a cheap backup for people to borrow. Wasn't looking to be part of a holy war...

I hope you guys can plan sinnerball for a different weekend this year. Then I may be able to make it!

[Enemy]

Well have you seen the latest? Apparently their is a tac8-R on the market. It appears to have a fixed relief valve just like the s-8's. I'm sure there are differences. At least I sure hope there are!!

I traded my s-8 in for a blem tac-8. I just wanted a cheap backup for people to borrow. Wasn't looking to be part of a holy war...

I hope you guys can plan sinnerball for a different weekend this year. Then I may be able to make it!

yall are the ones that vote on the weekend lmao but yeah i hope to see yah there and hopefully at some other events too.