How many times can an autococker cycle per second?

[Dubstar112]

How many times can an autococker cycle per second before the timing starts to get out of control;)?..lol

Is that speed reachable by A human finger? and what if you timed an autococker slightly off so at high rates of fire when the timing starts to go out it actually starts to go in 'time'?



I felt this was a deep blue subject.. however if you dont then ill delete it or what ever..

[Failure]

I read that the max rof of an autococker due to its mechanical nature is 13bps.

[liigod]

Autocockers are FAAAAAAAAAAST, the problem is the feeding. An autococker is friggen fast, faster than anyone will ever be able to pull the trigger, but over 13 the closed bolt style doesnt feed correctly its limit is about 13, with some TOTALLY tweaked things you can get 14. The less weight u have to move the faster it can open leaving it more time for feeding. Force feeding it a bit faster, but is hard on the balls. With a cocker they are a nice stable gun to shoot so they are easy to hit ball right after the last ball. So i say that you dont need over 13.

[BlackVCG]

Telefragged-

Where'd you get your data from? Do you have pressure vs. sps graphs showing that an autococker will cycle that fast without drop off? I want proof.

[Wat]

I would guess the max cycling speed (not worrying about shoot down) would be dependant on how fast you can cock.

If you could time how fast the back block goes back, then forward. Wonder if i can chrony a back block.

[AGD]

Deep Blue is not about guessing or stating what you heard somewhere else so it must be true. You have to back up your statements with good reasoning, facts or research.

So far I have not heard anything convincing that cockers can shoot 13bps. Cycle speed is different from shooting speed because the bolt has to be open long enough to drop a ball.

AGD

[Wat]

So minimum cycle time would equal

Time to drop sear/hammer to strike valve + Time to cock/open bolt + time for ball to drop in breach + time to close bolt.

We can calculate time for ball drop by how long it takes gravity to drop a ball 0.68" for verticle feed (or RH/LH if i bother to remember my trigonometry). I'm ignoring ball suckage since i still don't buy that it is an appreciable amount.

As for the other amounts, i have no idea as there are so many combinations of springs/LP rams/mini rams etc etc. Anyone with an eCocker know their delay and timing settings?

[Failure]

Well, I watched it on Pig TV in the 2001 NPPL Tourney Interview with Dave Zinkam of Protech paintball. Dave explains Protech's new electronic trigger conversion for the WGP Autococker and states that the autococker cannot do more than 13 balls per second due to the mechanical nature. No scientific explanations just your everyday meat and potato heresay.

Here is the link...episode 3

http://www.pigtv.net/01_summary/01_NPPLcup.shtml

[AGD]

Warpig Balistic Labs did a study of how fast various loaders could feed paint. They used a cocker mechanism to shuttle paint through the system. That would be a good place to start. You can calculate the bolt travel time by using 9 fps for a bolt speed as a start. That is fast but workable. Take it from there.

AGD

[squidboy69]

As well as the spring variables in an Autococker, don't forget that people shooting 'low pressure' cockers are effectively reducing thier SPS before shootdown. The RetroValve relies on the burst of full tank pressure through the on/off to recharge so quickly, most guys these days are only feeding there guns like 200-300psi, so that's a lot of vol to fill with so little pressue. hmmm low pressure makes for slow guns. Also the prevalance of dual regualting cockers slows them down too... better go rebuild mine ;)

[Manuel_FZR]

hmmm, the racegun frame is the fastest frame for the cocker, as far as I know.

They write:

How fast can I shoot?
As fast as you can feed it. We are running between 10,5 and 13 bps without any clipping at all (no eye).Keep in mind that you need lightweight parts (bolt, rear block etc.) to go beyond 10-11 bps on a Cocker. Most Cockers work fine at 9,5-10 bps. At the World Cup we were demoing cycle rates up to 18.5 bps just to show off.

So they talk from cycle rates at the 18.5bps. Shooting speed would be up to 13bps. Most will shoot 9,5 to 10bps.

[MikeCouves]

Yeah I was going to post about the PigTV episode. The guy on that states that a stock 2001 cocker can cycle 10 BPS without shootdown, and a WGP STO can do 12 BPS without shootdown. After that it's start half cutting because you are taking another shot before the gun fully recocks and fills back up with air.

[nerobro]

Time for some testing........ *looks longingly at the AGD gun dyno* Hmm.. I wonder what it woudl cost to build a setup that would allow us to answer these questions......

*rummages through the parts bins and pulls out a PIC or two and some phototransistors* As our electrococker project continues... this is going to be something we will find out. I'll post to the thread again when I have defintie answers on how fast "my" cocker cycles. And how fast it'll feed paint.

[Rock Star]

well a Huge factor in how fast it can cycle would be what type of bolt sear etc. if the bolt were delrin it would increase the cycle speed. if the back block was lighter than that would also increase the speed. thoguh i dont own a cocker i think this would play a huge role in cycle speed.
-Jared

[nerobro]

REcriprocating weight does make a difference, but you can make even a SS bolt Extrordinarily light. and being a smoother surface, I'd bet you'd get less drag. Again, even inertia can be overcome with enough force. The sear has nohting to do with it ;-)

[AGD]

Here are some things to consider:

Our Superbolt weighs 1.1 oz, I bet that is lighter than most cocker or angel bolt/hammer assemblies. Someone please weigh them and prove me wrong (I never have).

The forward momentum of the Mag bolt is decellerated by the bolt spring and will reverse without hitting anything. The rearward motion is stopped by a rubber bumper.

Hammer valve guns like the cocker/angel/impulse decellerate the forward stroke of the bolt by hitting the valve stem which is held closed with about 300 psi pressure. On return they hit something else like the back of the ram.

How smooth your gun shoots is largely based on how much you spent on it for bragging rights. They all wack something when they shoot.

AGD

[nerobro]

it's not even worth weighing ;-) other than for figuring out how much more they weigh.... Actually... Hmm... *digs out the scales* It would be nice to have numbers to play with.

Are you saying that the spring in the automag never get's fully compressed? (I thought that was the reason it was switched to a square crossection instead of a round one..)

I'd like to get back to the real point of this thread... how fast can we get a cocker to cycle ;-)

[squidboy69]

is that 1.1 oz the ENTIRE superbolt, or just the delrin sleeve?

I've just gone and weighed some new fangeled space age bolt for my cocker I was given to 'beta' test, and it was 2.2oz

not sure what it is, but is slick (coefficient of friction) as hell. It matches the bore of my gun flawlessly, but if I have the gun angled slightly, it'ss slide right through the marker, barrel and all... weird stuff.

[AGD]

Under normal conditions the bolt spring does not bottom out. We went to the square wire to increase the force. When dry firing it can bottom.

1.1 is for the ENTIRE Superbolt.

AGD

[sniper1rfa]

wieghs in at 30-40 grams i think. anyone know grams –>oz. ?

[AGD]

35 grams = 1.23oz. What is the weight of the hammer and cocking rod?

AGD

[Doc Nickel]

Okay, we're talking about two different things here, again.

I'd heard the snippet about RaceGun as well, and the consensus was that they were not firing it at circa-eighteen per second, they were cycling it at 18+.

There's a difference.

The original post asks how fast a 'Cocker can cycle. By this I assume he means chamber and fire a ball with minimal loss in velocity, correct?

From my fooling around with my own ElectroCocker design using a KM2 "Morlock" board, I could very, very easily hit the default 10/sec rate-of-fire, using a Max Flow and Tornado and running around 180 psi according to the cheap guage.

I don't have a chrony that will record a string of shots that fast, but there was little or no apparent dropoff, as measured by my Mk I Mod 0 eyeball.

It could have easily lost 20 fps, over and above the usual few fps consistency variance, without my noticing, but as I said, without a chrony that can cycle and record as fast as it can shoot, that's no more than a guess.

Now, the default timing I was using equalled almost exactly ten complete cycles per second- meaning it took not quite 100ms to release the sear, wait, push the block back, wait, and bring the block forward. Unfortunately, there's still a minor glitch in the Morlock software, something about overrunning timers. The gun is at KM2 now so Curt can iron out the software.

However, I'm assured that the Morlock can cycle far faster than that. It was suggested that, if I wanted to simply "show off" like the aforementioned RaceGun demonstration, that I should alter the timing to minimums and let it rip at 20+ cycles per second.

I'll drop a note to KM2 and see if Curt can stick a 'scope on it and see how fast the gun can cycle.

Doc.

[Failure]

Doc the morlock can cycle faster, the thing about the morlock board is that it is fully adjustable, unlike the race. I believe the morlock was adjustable from 1-100 ms.

[sniper1rfa]

they can be adjusted from 1 (technically 0, but that is locked) to 255.

the cocking rod and hammer are both the stock 2k parts, but i dont know how heavy they are, we never measured.

and doc, if you put the timing to minimums, nothing would happen. ther just wouldnt be any time for anything to happen because all the minimums are 1 ms. thats 4 ms for the solenoid 1 pulse, solenoid 1 holdoff, solenoid 2 pulse, and the solenoid 2 holdoff. although, if something did happen, that would be 250 bps. fun. :D

[Vegeta]

Cycling speed will always be faster than shooting speed. ALWAYS. Even if someone makes a extreemly reliable forcefeeding system, it will still be able to cycle a bit faster than it can feed. This is much like my post about the stacked tube reversed bolt design I had, which I posted here in deep blue. Theoretically, it worked, but it would cycle once so fast that there would be no time at all for the ball to feed. The hammer went backwards (toward player) And was linked to bolt on top, which moved with it. The hammer hit hte valve at about 10ms after the chamber was fully open. I thought that by the time the air got to the top, the ball would be in, and then the blowback would push it all forwards again, but no. it owuld be a blender, not a marker. i still like the concpet. Im sure tom has seen this, butmany times you come up with ideas that look great, but cant be done becuase of eitehr modern technology is not great enough or physics juts wont allow it.

[314159]

this just hit me and would verify some of the results out there. warpig used an autococker(with the cocking rod removed so it wouldn't fire to avoid the ballsuck effect on loading preformance)to test out some of the loaders currently available. they went up to 15bps before some of the loaders started to have problems.

with the hammer engaged, the force to move the hammer back, slowing down the bolt back, some of that force is applied to accelerating the hammer(the force it takes to cock hammer from the length of the hammer lug past the sear). so for an aproximation, you could say that this is insignificant and that it cancels itself out.

the factory settings on the centerflag grip frame had long times for the back block to go back, and the back block to go forward. they use standard autococker 4 ways on their guns. (autococker 4 ways have a problem with sticking, more so the higher you turn the pressure, usually resulting in a stronger trigger return spring) which in centerflags case, would make them use a stronger solenoid, which might be prhoibitive on the battery.

if you were to use a mac valve, like racegun and sandridge do. you could set the pressure of your cycling pneumatics to 80 psi which would increase the cycling speed.

lightining the hammer spring, would also increase the cycle rate.

you could lighten the hammer spring further if you put in a valve spring light enough to hold the valve stem in place, and have the back block timed so it closes the valve (this might have some blowback issues, resulting in a longer bolt, negating the suggested preformance increase.)

you could also increase the rof, by reducing friction from the bolt/body. and the hammer/body.

sandrige claims their guns top out at 16 bps, but their cockers are not clock driven, there event driven (which can cause reliablity problems. ie. more things to break) for example, they have a sensor on the ram that senses when the bolt is all the way open, they have a sensor to see when the ball is in the chamber. so there rof is limited almost to cycling speed, and how fast u can dump paint into them.

if you would shorten the length of hose from the mac valve, to the ram attached to the sear, or replaced this with a solenoid, you could increase rate of fire.

adding an adjustable eye that would allow the gun to fire before the ball is all the way in the chamber would also add a little to the rate of fire.


after saying all this, rate of fire has no corilation with the amount of fun you get out of playing paintball. i have been playing pgp the past couple times i have been out having a blast averaging .5 bps ;).

[314159]

it seems the autococker will always cycle slower than the automag, i'm thinking that the suction an autococker can generate might make up for this. i wonder if it is enough suction to suck the next round into the chamber faster than the warp could push the next round in the chamber.

now only if the automag could have ball suction. (hint hint ;))

[Vegeta]

Basically, make the parts lighter, oil it better, it will cycle faster. make to parts smaller, and it will cycle faster. Thast why you can supposedly get a high ROF on a PTP minicocker than on a normal one. the bolt is cut down and ther back block is nearly eliminated. Its plain physics. If you have a gun with a 1200 gram bolt, it will cycle slower at first becuase it takes mroe force to move a object with more mass compared to a 800 gram bolt. BUT theoretically, once this heavy bolt gets cycling, the mass should actually help keep it up to speed, becuase its harder to stop something heavier. The problem there is, the thing has to recipricate. it has to go back and forth, and at each end of the stroke it has to stop. If there was a way to make it keep going all in one direction, like a ring, you could get extremely fast cycling speeds.. like a waterwheel. It keeps spinning in one directi0on, the direction of the flow. It doesn't stop and go backwards to get more water now does it.

So we can get faster speeds by making the parts smaller and lighter. And if we coat them with a material that repels friction from the casing they are enclosed it it will go even faster. But it will always have to stop at the end of its stroke, and go backwards. and the deceeleration and acceleration at the end of each side will always slow it down.


whwew that was long.

[nerobro]

Hmm.. Vegeta brigns up an interesting point... how light can we get the autocockign components in a cocker. If you want to find the smallest set of moving components in an autococking gun.. take a look at the blazer. And blazers are very friendly to really high LPR pressrues...... Gah, how to make me spend MORE money... Still we need to dig up a testing rig to add some real numbers to all of this.

[314159]

i rember when autocockers had the large back blocks, and for a while the bob long ones still did. i think the trick to timing one of them was to set up the cocking rod so that it would stop the back block (the hammer reaching the point of furthermost travel about the same time the ram would reach it's internal stop) and then when the trigger was released, the hammer spring would help push the back block foward.

i guess that it is all in how you have it set up.

[Wat]

Vegeta,

One of the problems with lightening mass to increase cycling speed is that most cocker owners nullify it by decreasing the LPR output pressure. Lightening reciprocating mass will allow you to either increase cycling speed or lower ram pressure, not both.

As for ball suckage, i had a thought last night that will easily allow us to determine how much ball suckage there really is and hopefully someone with the time and tools (AGD hint hint) can performe this experiment for me.

Attach a ball to a string. Attach the string to a calibrated strain guage or other force measuring device that does not allow the ball to move. Now rest the ball so that it is just above the bolt in a verticle feed gun with the string running straight up to the strain gauge. Cycle the gun and measure any increase in force on the ball. A decrease in force would mean blow back, although in this setup we couldn't measure the magnitude of it.

We could determine the amount of ball suckage, add gravity and we'll get max feed rate.

[314159]

i have had my autococker (before i switched to the trigger plate with just a hole in it) suck a tissure ball into the chamber, and about half an inch into the barrel before.

if you could harness this power in a mag tom, you would rock.

[Doc Nickel]

Actually, Wat, the hammer mainspring is what ultimately decides overall LPR pressure.

While a lighter bolt and block will indeed help the overall assembly cycle faster, the mainspring regulates the force necessary for each full cycle.

Lighter mainspring, less LPR pressure. Heavier mainspring, more pressure.

Now while cycling fast, yes, a little additional pressure is needed to overcome inertia, but that is, I think, only a fraction of what the mainspring requires.

And Pi, check that "tissue trick" again but with a ball in the chamber. Getting suction is not a problem. Keeping it when actually firing paint is something else entirely.

Doc.

[Wat]

Yeah Doc, i wasn't thinking. Since thats the case, then ultra light bolts and back blocks would do next to nothing to increase cycling speed. I'm sure shocktech would say the same thing about their superfly :)

[fenris69]

So essentially, there is no max cyclic rate available yet...till someone tunes a cocker for max bps rather than lp. dont think thats happening soon!

hm. actually...has anyone looked at the excalibur for any of these tests? since one can adjust the timing of the various functions in ms , you should be able to get a ballpark figure of how fast a 'closed bolt' marker can cycle, although youd have to agree on how long each should take ie. how many ms should the bolt be forward.It would be a pain to feed paint in there tho. Anyone want to mail warpig see if theyre up for another 'test' ?
:)

[nerobro]

i'm sure the lighter blocks and bolts help with how much recoil you get ;-) But that's not the topic of discussion is it. IF you wanna check out the data acqusition thread.. we're trying to put and end to this by just doing the freaking testing ;-)

[314159]

"You van ask Cpt. Klutz at www.racegun.dk. He is the forum manager. You can get all of your questions answered at their forum. He is currently building a side feed cocker for a warp and will be displaying it at Skyball in toronto. Hopen this helps!"-Dkarc

just saw this at pbnation, i will be keeping an eye out for this at skyball

[DefiantGuy3901]

i have seen that hammers weigh around 1.2 to 1.9 oz, so that with a 2.2 bolt would be at leat 3.4 oz which is 3 times the super bolt, but the hammer doesn't move very far so i doubt it would make to much of a difference...

[res0qjp2]

Centerflag has a electronic frame coming out for the autococker and it rocks.

[FeelTheRT]

"The stock Autococker is only able to cycle about 10-11 bps. While the STOs and Blackmagics can cycle upto 13-14 bps." -Dennis Ashley of Centerflag Products.

[max-mag]

if all anyone wants is proof, then where's the proof that the RT valve can do 23-26 BPS? Also, on my less intelligent side, "Wouldn't it be cool to watch a video clip of the RT doing 25 BPS?"



AGD is the best!!!!!

[SPOOKI]

the truth of the matter is that you can't exactly say how many times per second a cocker can cycle... There are too many variables. I've owned three cockers so far and they all shoot differently. The question must be more specific. With so many add-ons that can be put on a cocker it's impossible to give an accurate ROF for them. About the most accurate estimation you can give is that a decent cocker will fire as fast as you can pull the trigger (without short stroking it of course).

[314159]

without hitting around the bush, i think that the point that tom is trying to make is that the automag will always cycle faster due to it's design.

this is not saying that you can get the autococker to cycle real fast with mods and tricks, but how high of a rate of fire do you need? and do you want to spend extra cash on paint to show off how much paint you can fling with your uber marker around the field?

[Paladin]

Originally posted by AGD
Deep Blue is not about guessing or stating what you heard somewhere else so it must be true. You have to back up your statements with good reasoning, facts or research.

So far I have not heard anything convincing that cockers can shoot 13bps. Cycle speed is different from shooting speed because the bolt has to be open long enough to drop a ball.

AGD

With paint being force fed into the gun by air flow and mechanical operation of the trigger with a vaiable speed drill I can easily get "shooting" speeds of up to 20 balls per second with my auto-cocking guns and do it without any "shoot down" at all if there is adequte air supply to the gun at 500 - 600 psi.
Actual cycling speed potential is beyond what I have the means to measure accurately. I haven't yet found the point at which the valve "floats". Like out-reving the valve train on a car motor. If your typical automobile engine can rev to say 5000 rpm safely a paintgun should be able to easily do half of that; so 2500 RPM works out to 41.666 blasts of air per second.

[thei3ug]

Originally posted by max-mag
if all anyone wants is proof, then where's the proof that the RT valve can do 23-26 BPS? Also, on my less intelligent side, "Wouldn't it be cool to watch a video clip of the RT doing 25 BPS?"

AGD has a room with a computer and a bunch of sensors that can measure the recharge rate of a regulator.
I've seen an RT be put on it. The RT is inarguably the fastest recharging reg, and will do so up to that speed before dropoff.

[FooTemps]

Originally posted by Paladin


With paint being force fed into the gun by air flow and mechanical operation of the trigger with a vaiable speed drill I can easily get "shooting" speeds of up to 20 balls per second with my auto-cocking guns and do it without any "shoot down" at all if there is adequte air supply to the gun at 500 - 600 psi.
Actual cycling speed potential is beyond what I have the means to measure accurately. I haven't yet found the point at which the valve "floats". Like out-reving the valve train on a car motor. If your typical automobile engine can rev to say 5000 rpm safely a paintgun should be able to easily do half of that; so 2500 RPM works out to 41.666 blasts of air per second.

Cool, can you test any other types of markers in the same way?

[Paladin]

Originally posted by FooTemps


Cool, can you test any other types of markers in the same way?

Well, just about anything with a trigger could be tested like that but the rig I made up was a temporary thing and ruined a grip frame to do the test.

The feeder was just a piece of PVC with air hose hooked to the top of it and vented at the bottom. All K.I.S.S priciple stuff. Not at all like the fancy rig that Tom set up. ;)

[pbjosh]

Hello!

I have a couple of Raceguns laying around, and figured I will drop numbers for all of you to work on. If you have any questions I hope I can gather them for you.

I don't know if you have seen the Racegun R.I.P. software, but it allows a you to time 5 points on the firing cycle of the gun. Shot, Dwell, Open, Load, Close. Broken down, and timing related to them (please excuse, it is about 1 or so here and I have been putting in 14+ hour days on the computer and such):

Shot is the timing for the solenoid in the grip to release the hammer. This can be set down to 5 ms in the RIP program but with earlier software this can be set to less. With a bit of setting It can run at 4 ms or less. This is only for releasing the sear.

Dwell it the between the Grip Solenoid turn off point and the time the second solenoid is opened. This is where a person can tune out blow-back and tune in ball suck, something I really didn't believe in until I did it. To time in 'Ball Suck' or time out blow back a person needs to have about 13-18 ms total cumulative time with the Shot and the Dwell settings. I have found that most LP cockers, short of a well tuned AKA, have very long dwell time. Blow back is still felt at 15 ms total Shot/Dwell timing. This can add alot to the total time on the 'Cocker. If a person has a fast asking valve, with a healthy valve spring or a large cup seal, they can lower the total Shot/dwell to about 10 ms. That is total for the Hammer to release from teh sear, the hammer to move forward, hit the valve, and the valve to close again, and then the time for 'Ball Suck' affects to happen.

Open is the time it takes for the Ram to push all the bolt/backblock/cocking rod and such back to re-engage the sear. This is based on a bunch of fun stuff, but for the most part the largest restricting factor is the spring tension on the hammer. If the hammer spring is set really heavy this will slow the action down considerably. And a heavy hammer and/or spring will lengthen the valve dwell time. Open on a fast cocker can be under 18 ms. Most run about 20 ms or more. If a person wants to lower this time they can apply more pressure to the ram or get lighter components. For timing load and figuring out the length of the setting I am going to copy the 'Matt' method off of Raceguns site:

"How do I find the optimum (shortest) Open and Close times for my setup?
Answer: This expert advice from Mats Olsson, our Swedish Cocker guru:

To find the right Open and Close times for your Racegrip and Cocker, go through these steps:

1/ Set to Semi mode
2/ Set (or leave) your LPR to the right cocking pressure.
3/ Set Load to 1mS
4/ Increase Open step by step from 10mS until the lug stops riding along and actually catches the sear (single shot, pause, single shot etc).

You now have the minimum Open time set.

5/ Add a few mS to be on the safe side.
6/ Set Close to 2-3 mS lower than Open. You can experiment with lower Close times later on, too low will cause blow back.
7/ Set Load to 35mS and work down until you start chopping (or feel happy with your BPS).

You probably end up with something like 8,8,30,35,27 or so with a 12v revvy."

Load is the time it takes to feed the gun. Simply put, load is the time the bolt is truly open. Load and Open are really one action on the Solenoidvalve on the front bracket of the Racegun Setup. Total they cover the On period of the SMC Solenoidvalve, but they also can be broken up into two periods of the mechanical operation. If a gun is force fed, Through a Warp, it can achieve a VERY high ROF.

Finally the close time is when the Front Solenoid valve is turned off and the bolt moves back. This is set to allow the bolt to get all the way back before the hammer releases again. Timing this too short and you get blowback from the valve being open before the bolt is closed.

Okay, I will leave here at this point. I could go on about settings and how to get it short, but lowering the open/close times can really raise the ROF, and force fed systems can get great ROF due to being able to lower the load time.

Okay, it is really late, I have to be up in 6 hours or less and I have things to do. Have fun with these numbers, and I will keep my eyes in here to drop some more when I am not so busy. I can test stuff at the shop here and will be in the future. I will let you know my findings when I do.

Josh

Paladin, have you timed the cycle on your guns? The valve dwell time looks really short, and the cycle time has always been real mean. Just curious.

[Paladin]

Hi Josh,

I don't have the electronic means to measure valve dwell and cycling speed. My tuning is all done by sound ,feel and seeing the results of firing.("Old-school technology, but it works) The valve dwell on our guns is VERY short (the primary reason we don't go in for the "low pressure" school of thought, no wasted gas, time or energy) and the operation of the gun is all based on what the valve is doing. The valve in our guns is designed to let the smallest burst of gas do the most amount of work possible in the shortest time possible. Then, the delay that is needed between firing and cycling can be very minimal without outrunning the system and getting the bolt open before the ball is gone.
On the Blazer, I had to design in a means to actually slow the cycling speed of the gun down in order for it to feed and function properly at high rates of fire. Ironically, slowing the gun down allowed for higher rates of fire and a shorter trigger pull.

[einhander619]

Congratulations, Vegeta, I think you have the basis down for the first paintball gatling gun!:p

[orangejulius]

If you are talking about the cycling and not firing the cocker just the cocker running the ram and bolt. Well ive played around with my racegun and has it clocking 50 BPS not firing just the backblock moving and gotten the gun up to 25 but do dont know if it has had shoot down. I think I will test this. If anyone does not believe me I will take a movie later.

[pbjosh]

Here is a little thought,

If we timed a cocker equipped with a power feed that matched the PF of a 'Mag, and added blowback into the timing, say set the gun Shot/Dwell to 4,4 and then use that blowback to Power the next ball into the feed, we could lower our Load setting also, so we could in fact run the gun with these settings:

4,4,20,20,15 which = 16.9 bps.

Wow, that would kick butt, put also feed well. I might have to get a power feed to fit on a Side fed 'Cocker.

Josh

[Paladin]

How are you going to time the blowby to wait until the bolt is open so the ball can be blown into the breech??Blowby/blowback happens long befor the bolt is open far enough to feed a ball.
That would be like using the vent from the 4-way/ram to assit in feeding. When the bolt is open enough for that to happen, the ram would already be done venting so no air would be flowing when it needs to be.


Originally posted by pbjosh
Here is a little thought,

If we timed a cocker equipped with a power feed that matched the PF of a 'Mag, and added blowback into the timing, say set the gun Shot/Dwell to 4,4 and then use that blowback to Power the next ball into the feed, we could lower our Load setting also, so we could in fact run the gun with these settings:

4,4,20,20,15 which = 16.9 bps.

Wow, that would kick butt, put also feed well. I might have to get a power feed to fit on a Side fed 'Cocker.

Josh

[AGD]

See Glen I told you you'd like it here!

AGD

[Paladin]

Originally posted by AGD
See Glen I told you you'd like it here!

AGD

Hi Tom,
:) Yes indeed. It often get very interesting, to say the least. ;^)

[pbjosh]

Sorry I was very tired and just posted that to tease AGD.

And with the Racegun it is easy to time in blowback. I just have the bolt open way to soon. Or, not close before it starts another firing cycle. If I set the Shot to 4 ms and the Dwell to 4 ms I get blowback. Because the bolt IS coming back before the bolt/barrel have vented completely.

I know the bolt speed on the cocker is at least 20 ms to open, and the ball could never get loaded, but also if there is some blow back in the system that means the bolt is open, and on its way back, so the ball would most likely rebound into the outside edge of the bolt that is 1/2 to 3/4" open. Close but I realized it wouldn't quite make it.

As for ROF being above 13 bps, I will set a cocker up to do that reliably here in the future and run it by your table AGD at some future tourney. And we can play with the settings. I also want to build a sear and such that will allow me to test a Blazer. I have been a Blazer fan since it came out, and am very impressed with its performance. I bet it would be no problem to set it to 13+ with a good loader.

And with such things as the Tungsten Hammer Pro PB is handling now the cycle speed of the bolt/back block can be faster, because he uses a hammer spring that is suppose to be 1/10 the strenght of a a Nelson yellow. That could cut off up to 10 ms on the Open times on a lot of cockers. Yes that will add some time to the Shot dwell, but not 10 ms.

Also on the bolt/vent feedback issue, the ram won't be empty until the bolt is ALL the way back, right? And it might take a MS or two for the air to vent all the way into the the air assist feed. I could see where there is a window for the ball to be pushed into the breech. I am not saying it DOES happen, just that I see a potential window.

And I would also like to thank AGD for this forum. I like it here quite a bit too.

Josh

[Butterfingers]

the tungsten hammer also weighs a ton and a half. More reciprocating mass.

[Paladin]

Originally posted by Butterfingers
the tungsten hammer also weighs a ton and a half. More reciprocating mass.

Extra heavy hammers can have some benifits to consistency but can also lead to some interesting issues in tuning and timing the equipment. A very heavy hammer with a very light drive spring can in fact generate enough energy to get the valve open effectively but the time it takes for the hammer to get from the cocked position to the valve pin when released is increased significantly. Hence requiring signicantly different timing configuration to achieve decent shot performance.

[nerobro]

In other words you need to compensate for the "lag" it takes to open the valve.

Now.. what about going the other way. Using really really light hammers and going for efficancy.

didn't you use to sell light nelson hammers? And don't you try to have the spring totally exteneded by the time it hits the valve?

(I think I'm going for another thread here... ultimate sheriden efficancy...)

[Paladin]

Originally posted by nerobro
In other words you need to compensate for the "lag" it takes to open the valve.

Well, yes and it gets to be an interesting balancing act with the hammer and spring, as well as the size of the valve seat and the vavle spring to get the right opening distance and dwell. Then letting the valve do it's job before further cycling action.

Now.. what about going the other way. Using really really light hammers and going for efficancy.

"Really light" is usually too light. Especially with todays larger valve seats. Too light and you can't get the valve open against the pressure behind it without extreme overdrive with the hammer spring. Which in turn screws up dwell needs.

didn't you use to sell light nelson hammers?

Not really. That's probably Colin Thompson, LAPCO that you are thinking of. He even made them out of aluminum.
However I did use some of his lightened SS hammers in certain circumstances. The standard Nelson valve setup has many limitations as to what can be done with it so you had to be constantly changing springs to accomodate pressure changes from varying tempreatures. On the other hand, a nelson hammer has a very long fall before hitting the valve so you can get away with a lighter hammer.

And don't you try to have the spring totally exteneded by the time it hits the valve?

Yes. Actually, I try to get the spring fully extended about 1/8" before the hamer contacts the valve stem. That way the hammer can bounce off the valve and the valve is fee to work on it's own without the hammer/spring trying to hold it open when it wants to be closing. Allows for very accurate metering of air flow. If the hammer is too light or the valve seat too large, that is very hard to accomplish. Hammer weight variables as little as 1/2 gram or less can make a big difference in energy displaced on impact with the valve. The weight of the hammer and the distance that it travels are critical to accurate tuning. Keep in mind that the hammer has to work against the pressure in the valve and the valve spring actually only effects opening distance and valve dwell. There are many little tricks available for tuning valve output. like using a short, stiff little bumper spring inside of a light valve spring to allow for a large opening and short dwell on the valve.


(I think I'm going for another thread here... ultimate sheriden efficancy...)

Not at all. The same principles apply to all but a few of the guns in the game. There are only a few out there these days that do dot utilize a poppit style valve. Of course the Amag is one of those few :D

[magattack]

The main thing about a cocker is trying to overcome the inertis of the back block moving. this creates a problem since the forward motion is because of air pressure. then when to bolt moves back it will compress the air even more causeing a little lag there.

[pbjosh]

Okay,

I have seen the Back block take any where between 16 and 45 ms to open. This is timed on a Racegun Frame. And to close normally is 5-10 ms less.

It was due to the Pressure input, ram, the linkage arrangment, bolt friction, spring weight, and also interia. Change any of these you can change the open/close time.

Air trapped between the BackBlock has so little to do with it, it is funny. With the cocking rod out and decent components the back block goes back in about 15ms or less. Without the bolt it takes even less time.

Josh

[Skittle]

well, if u have to account for all that to get a cocker to shoot really fast what about the sandridge force 5 cocker, it was an electro cocker and they were saying how they could shoot so very fast. So does that mean when u have an electro frame or whatever it affects the moving parts of the gun? How can they make the cocker like that if they cant get it to shoot faster than one that isint electro?

[nerobro]

Originally posted by Skittle
well, if u have to account for all that to get a cocker to shoot really fast what about the sandridge force 5 cocker, it was an electro cocker and they were saying how they could shoot so very fast.
It IS an electrococker, and it does shoot fairly fast. It's a gun that's depenant on it's eye, and without it being set right, you often slow the gun down signifigantly.


So does that mean when u have an electro frame or whatever it affects the moving parts of the gun? How can they make the cocker like that if they cant get it to shoot faster than one that isint electro?
"electro" Doesn't really effect the operation of the gun. Just the trigger feel. the "electro" parts are just how soem people here are choosing to measure their guns.

right now we know that a cocker can fire more than 20 times a seccond with palladins testing. So I suppose we are just down to the ponit of gettign a reg that can recharge that fast (the stabilizer can do 20... )

I'm wondering waht fatter hoses will do for how fast the gun can be made to cycle. Currently I just crank up the pressure on my rock to keep the gun cycling as crisply as I like. (I use that term becasue that's the way the gun feels when a LPR is adjusted "right" Just like the blazer) Hmm... still need to build a test rig...

[ER FFballa 8]

Actualy some guy on PBC set his race frame to do 294.5 BPs and it cycled that fast.. if we are talking cycling as in the bolt cocking then firing then that is what i've heard.. ok now back to reality the feeding rate and trigger pull effect how many times a second.. i have gotten my cocker to 10 BPS and others with electro frames have gotten better just depends on the person....

[AGD]

ER and the rest of the new guys,

You have posted in Deep Blue where we limit the discussions to factual and theoretical applications of physics to paintball. If you post something you MUST be ready to defend it with facts or a well thought out line of reasoning why it is true. If you post something you just HEARD was true, expect to get shredded here in this forum.

ER, you claim that someone on PBNation had his cocker to 300 cycles per second. I counter with this line of .
calcualtions.

In order to have the bolt travel 1" forward and then 1" back 300 times as second it has to move at least 55 FPS with no accell, decell. Considering the regular cocker bolt speed is about 4 fps this means you need 10 times the bolt speed right off the bat.

1" of forward travel at 55 FPS happens in about 1.65 milliseconds. This requires an accleration rate of about 16,000 feet per second, per second.

To accelerate a 3 oz. bolt at this accel. rate you need 90 lbs of force.

Cockers have a 1/4" piston for the bolt ram. To get 90 lbs of force out of it you would have to put 1900 psi air into the ram.

Unless the ram was hooked directly into the main compressed air tank there is no way the gun could EVER cycle 300 times a second.

So I claim the guy that posted that was either lying to get you to believe him or too stupid to figure it out for himself and is just passing down the myth.

Please hang around and help us dispell the myths that permiate paintball.

AGD

[einhander619]

Physics is phun(nice job by the way, TK!), but I have a much simpler explanation - misplaced decimal.
294.5 = 29.45?
Perhaps it takes someone who is as bad at typing as me to think like this. I hope against hope that noone is ignorant enough to claim 300 cycles per second on a cocker.

[MrMag]

it is SO hard to get a cocker over 9pbs. now i admit that i dont own one. but i have tried my friends old one, and the trigger and bolt just wont allow u to fire anything close to what er has stated. i am not a math/physics wizz like tk, but i can say this with complete assurance. this could be different w/ a racegun however.

[ER FFballa 8]

all i was saying was some guy set his to that on the race.. he said it didnt look like it was moving so it probably wasnt.. but there are also guys that set their cockers to 90 on FA and the back block was a blur according to them.. now am i saying this is a fact no.. just what i have heard. i cant say the facts because for me the fastest i have gotten my cocker with sliding slotted trigger was 10 bps...

[einhander619]

90 bps sounds a little more plausible, still nuts, though! I think I'm going to forward this thread to my physics prof, he'll probably make a test question out of it. Even if a cocker did 90 bps, it probably couldn't sustain it for more than a few seconds before it would simply fly apart! Now, Tom, I didn't do the math, but following your example, 90 cycles a second would take something on the order of around 600 psi input pressure to the ram, correct? So much for low pressure...

[ER FFballa 8]

ok i worked out your calculations and my ff with an input of under 300 which cycles at 30 psi is able to cycle at 47.5 bps so why would it be that impossible?? also at 90 it wouldnt fly apart.. cockers are built sturdy they arent the beasts many of you think they are...

[bjjb99]

Using Tom's explanation as a basis, I've come up with the following set of calculations. I included acceleration of the bolt since it wasn't too difficult to calculate. I will use the example provided by ER FFballa 8 to illustrate:

Take your cycling pressure (30 psi) and convert it to atmospheres by dividing by 14.7 psi/atm.

30 / 14.7 = 2.04 atmospheres.

Take this value and convert it to Pascals (a.k.a. N/m^2) by multiplying it by 101325 Pascals/atm

2.04 * 101325 = 2.07x10^5 N/m^2

We will assume that this pressure is constant against the cocker's ram piston. According to Tom's post, the piston is 0.25 inches in diameter (6.35x10^-3 meters). Calculate the area occupied by the piston.

(3.1415 / 4) * (6.35x10^-3)^2 = 3.167x10^-5 m^2

Calculate the force on this piston as a result of the gas pressure.

2.07x10^5 N/m^2 * 3.167x10^-5 m^2 = 6.56 N

F = m * a, a = F/m, calculate the acceleration of the bolt, assuming a weight of 3 ounces (mass of 0.0850 kg)

6.56 N / 0.0850 kg = 77.2 m/sec^2

Find how long it takes for the bolt to move 1 inch (0.0254 meters) with the acceleration calculated above.

x = 1/2 a t^2

t = sqrt(2 x / a)

t = sqrt(2 * 0.0254 / 77.2) = 0.0257 seconds

Multiply this time by 2 to cover an entire bolt open/close cycle.

0.0257 * 2 = 0.0514 seconds

This is the time required for one cycle of the bolt. Take the reciprocal of this number to determine the number of cycles per second, assuming zero delay between changes in bolt direction.

1 / 0.0514 = 19.5 cycles/second

At 30 psi, the max rate I calculate is 19.5 cycles per second. Using the 1900 psi in Tom's post, I get a max rate of 155 cycles per second. The max cyclic rate varies with the square root of the pressure, all other factors (bolt mass, piston diameter, bolt travel) being constant. Quadrupling the pressure increases the max cyclic rate by a factor of two.

BJJB

[nerobro]

Originally posted by MrMag
it is SO hard to get a cocker over 9pbs. *snip* and the trigger and bolt just wont allow u to fire anything close to what er has stated. *snip* this could be different w/ a racegun however.

Your difficulty in getting a cocker over 9 bps is your hand, not the gun.

The trigger is something you can tune to allow yourself to shoot the gun as effectivley as YOU can. the bolt has little to do with the rate of fire of th gun, at the ROF you're mentioning.

Using the racegun frame has almost no effect on maximum rate of fire. All it does is use a solinoid for the sear and one for the 4way. As the parts of the gun see it, the differences are negligable at best. The sear drops faster... and that's about it.

As paladin said earlier, he has had one of his guns up to 20bps... so we know THAT number for sure.

[nerobro]

IIRC the piston in a stock cocker is 3/16" not 1/4" That changes things singifigantly. the only ones with the 1/4" or smaller are the clippard minirams...

[bjjb99]

If I am reading my own calcs correctly, the max cyclic rate varies proportionally with piston diameter. In this case, a 3/16" piston should yield 75% of the cyclic rate obtainable by a 1/4" piston, all else being equal.

BJJB

[nerobro]

1/4"= .25"

ok.. radius times radius time pi..

.125x.125x(pi)=0.04908 square inches...

3/16"= wait.... eep... the math in my head just glitched really badly. I was thinking 3/8" *crawls back into his hole*

http://www.clippard.com/store/display_details.asp?sku=3SD-3T

Isn't that what the clippard rams are? not the minirams..... the fittings look the right size. if that's true... then it has 2x the piston aera.

3/8" gives us .1sq inch of aera... Doubble what the ram in the calculations gave us.. so we get doubble the force for the same pressure.

[Vegeta]

"At 30 psi, the max rate I calculate is 19.5 cycles per second. Using the 1900 psi in Tom's post, I get a max rate of 155 cycles per second. The max cyclic rate varies with the square root of the pressure, all other factors (bolt mass, piston diameter, bolt travel) being constant. Quadrupling the pressure increases the max cyclic rate by a factor of two. "

155 cycles/sec. now lets calculate bolt mass into that. it is going to be harder to move taht block of aluminum back iand forth, tehre is a thing here on earth called gravity. In a vacuum, thats another thing. So that will slow down the cycles , but also teis thing has to reciprocate and therefore it has to accelerate in the beginning of each stroke, deccel when it is about closed,and accel again, etc etc. That will shave soem time off there. \


But what wetre looking for here is this:

A object with a mass of 500g when moving at 1 m/s is goign to have more kenetic energy than a object with a mass of 250g moving at 1m/s. i.e. it takes longer for a 18,000 poung 18 wheeler to stop than a 2,000 pound Nissan. Now taht recipricationg mass should be semi good, becuase at a certain spot it should start to help keep the cycling going thtat fast, i.e.bouncng back and forth. So makign hte bolt lighter will increase the cycle rate .. but how light is too light? will a medium wieght bolt give the cycling more enerygy than a lgiht bolt and therefore allowing the gun to cyccle faster?

I dunno. Now that I think about it, not really. But maybe if the bolt and linkage rod was lengthened, and there was a spring put between the block and hte body, so at high speeds it would bounce? no... thats nto a real good idea.. teh gun wouldnt stay in the cocked position.

just brainstorming here ppl dont kill me.

[bjjb99]

neobro wrote:
>
> 3/8" gives us .1sq inch of aera... Doubble what the ram in the
> calculations gave us.. so we get doubble the force for the same
> pressure.

3/8" is 1.5 times 1/4". The area will be 1.5 * 1.5 = 2.25 times that of a 1/4" piston, and will be able to push with 2.25 times the force at the same pressure. This means that the acceleration is 2.25 times as fast, which means that the time required to travel one inch is the square root of 2.25 times faster than for a 1/4" piston. The square root of 2.25 is 1.5, which is identical to the ratio of the two piston diameters. The cyclic rate varies proportionally with piston diameter, all other things being equal.

On the topic of max cyclic rate with an input pressure of 1900 psi, vegeta wrote:
> 155 cycles/sec. now lets calculate bolt mass into that.

I used a total reciprocating mass of 3 ounces, as stated by Tom.

> it is going to be harder to move taht block of aluminum back iand
> forth, tehre is a thing here on earth called gravity.

Gravity should not affect the reciprocating speed unless you're starting to talk about frictional effects against the bottom of the bolt's chamber.

> In a vacuum, thats another thing.

I'm confused. This did not follow from your previous sentance regarding gravity.

> So that will slow down the cycles , but also teis thing has to
> reciprocate and therefore it has to accelerate in the beginning of
> each stroke, deccel when it is about closed,and accel again, etc
> etc. That will shave soem time off there.

I took into account acceleration from a resting position for each direction of the stroke. Deceleration at the end of each stroke is the result of a hard stop, particularly in the case of the forward stroke. Because I treated the deceleration as a hard stop, I assumed it was effectively instantaneous.

> Now taht recipricationg mass should be semi good, becuase at a
> certain spot it should start to help keep the cycling going thtat
> fast, i.e.bouncng back and forth.

The only way you're going to get a bouncing back and forth effect is if you can find a means to store the kinetic energy at the end of each stroke and can vent the pressure that caused each stroke quickly.

> So makign hte bolt lighter will increase the cycle rate .. but how
> light is too light?

Absolutely. A lighter bolt should increase the max cyclic rate in proportion to the square root of the old bolt/new bolt ratio. As for how light is too light, I'd have to say so light that it affects the structural integrity of the bolt.


BJJB

[Vegeta]

When I mentioned gravity, i was talking about the bolt having wieght. And when I said vaccum i mean space, not vacuum... thats totally diffrent, sorry.

Now friction on the bottom of the bolt from gravity itself I wasnt directly talking about but could be an issue. I mainly meant that mass of bolt moving back and forth. What if the gun was cycling in a zero gravity enviroment? what effects would this have on the parts?

[AGD]

Well, things got lively didn't they?

AGD

[MrMag]

well i was just thinking and came upon this thought. running a pball gun at 90 fps would require constant oil on the bolt and internals to prevent too much friction. now unless he was pouring oil down into the gun durring the entire time, i dont see how this would be plausbale. the bolt and internals would create so much friction everything would simply be destroyed.

[pbjosh]

Okay, this is all fun and such, but a couple of comments,

Yes this got nice and busy fast. Way to go guys.

Uhm, 30 psi in a ram is rarely enought to cock it. Try 60-90 as the standard.

Also most Rams are made to run at 125-250 psi for a million cycles without lube.

The limiting factor for the total speed has more to do with other factors such as side load, hammer spring tension, total mass, and other junk. Just running the bolt back and forth at 70 psi or so still takes 15-20 ms each way on most guns without the cocking rod. I have tested an Open time to be reliable and cocking at the 20 ms level. But that was a really smooth setup. And at medium pressure.

If you set the Racegun to 7 ms for the open time the back block jumps about 1/2" to 3/4". Without a cocking rod it ALMOST might move close enough to load a paintball, if the back block was screwed out enough for the bolt to be almost at the breech opening when the the bolt was all the way forward.

Also if you use Racegun's RIP software the highest setting, at 1 ms for each or the 5 areas, you get 250 bps. The gun doesn't cycle at those settings boys. Just barely makes some really cool clicking noises.

I can get a gun to dry cycle at 18-22.5 bps, but that is with 1 ms to load paint. There is NO floating of the valve or anything, just a really fast angel scaring sound.

And the Racegun's Half-Blocks hammer, bolt, and top-block weight about the same as the standard fomieless bolt I have in my mag. I don't have #s, but it was darn close. I will try and measure when I get mine in.

As for timing the cockers with the Racegun Frame, You can test and set every portion of the grip to match EXACTLY how fast your gun does go. And sometimes that is alot slower than we think. I have sent guns out that could do 11.95 with a good VL and faster with a HALO. And ones that have an Eye that do even better than that. Most of them? 9.5 bps MAX. About 60% can do better than that. But I haven't seen any that run at less than 9.0 bps. Not a 1.

I will let everybody know what my Halfie does with an Eye and the Warp feed. AGD, got any any you want to donate for testing? I might not be able to hit 20 bps, but something close.

Josh

[orangejulius]

Im running racegun at 9bps. I am running a stock ram at 25 or its maybe around 28 ish PSI stock hammer just some special springs. I play all day like that and test it at home and it runs fine at that PSI loads fine doesnt pinch or chop in the whole day. running 250 shooting 290 stock bolt everything is stock besides the cocking rod P reg and the raceframe everything else is stock. Im feedinging it with a maxflow tank. and I dont even have a heavy hammer just stock.

[nicad]

a 2k1 STO backblock, bolt, and recocking rod are right at 109 grams. i actually made a bolt, backblock and recocking rod that weigh 27 grams, which is pretty much the same as the 25-30 grams of the shortblocks'.

with the stock STO 109 gram setup and a 74 gram tungston FF hammer, my race will shoot at 11 bps all day. have yet to try pushing the 27gram setup for speed, but it will do 13bps.

btw- PP/RaceGuns had some pretty nice setups at skyball 5 this year:
http://home.viptx.net/~colin/day2/03020039.JPG
pbjosh were you there??

out! :)

[pbjosh]

Nope, I was at Vegas, and should be at Chicago. And I will have a working Halfie there with one of Tom Kaye's Warps on it. I am hoping for 15+.

I should be hitting all the Major tourneis and some other events here and there this next year, and after that I will be VERY busy next year. I currently plan on hitting NWTS, Pan-Am, NPPL/PSP, and maybe all the fun ones inbetween, like Skyball, Mardi Gras, IAO, plus a couple of Racegun Events. Hopefull I will get to play in a big game or two, maybe some thing fun and senario. Right now I am busy getting everyting setup, but I will let ya know.

And hopefully I can see your gun.

Josh

[ER FFballa 8]

that is a vertibrate with a race i believe (actualy allmost positive..).. best race cocker i have seen/shot was ethans (from lockout) millenium race.. that thing was amazing.. mitchs son was lighting people up with it and hes like 10 it was funny as hell.. anyways back to the subject yeah like i said i run 30 psi to the ram and about 270 to the 'gun i get 10 on a slider.. planing on getting a race then pushing it to its ultimate max and then ill tell you guys what i got it to.. btw my cocker is a 2k2 boxxer ff.. next time i think of it ill throw the back block and bolt on the digi scale and tell you guys the wieght of it...

[Vegeta]

Damn this did get hot fast. I wish I had a cocker/racewframe so I knew more about this stuff.

[Grey_Goose]

I've had 4 RaceGuns, that all max dry-cycle'd at around 16-19bps.

They've been two Milleniums, Spanky Fishbone Mini, and Works, so we're talking fairly light markers & components.

Just from my personal experience, I'd say 30 or 300 is impossible, but we'll see where the halfie leads.

PBJosh, what inline were you using to get 22bps? I found that after about 14bps an ANS Gen-X couldn't keep up, and switched to a MacDev Gladiator.

Just as an aside to other RaceGun owners, I'm comfortably shooting 12bps, without any real need to see if I can tweak it to play faster. I didn't realize I could shave off some time on the Close, I might fiddle w/ that :)

Also, is anyone doing shot or dwell lower than 6?

[pbjosh]

Well, the guys at Compulsive Paintball Shot this vid and let me host it.

So, please, use 'Save Target As' to keep from slowing down the server.

http://www.amped-markers.com/video/racemovie1.avi

This is a Merlin Racegun with the Eye, running FA fed by a HALO. Notice he starts shooting at 10 sec, and stops at 21, and only has a couple of paintballs in the loader. The gun is set to 15.5, and he said it was hardly breathing, might have to open it up a bit more.

I have heard of a Warp fed gun going 18+ with paint, but at that speed you start worrying about parts falling off. as soon as I get my Half-Block, that is what I aim to shoot. I got the Warp, just need the Halfie.

Josh

[z-grip]

the boston paintball reflex trigger is capable of 14 a second. i know this becouse i just ordered mine. ohh god i cant wait

[DarkRipper]

Originally posted by Grey_Goose


Also, is anyone doing shot or dwell lower than 6?

El Pirata from PBC is running his FF race at 4 on both shot and dwell.
Mine are in the 8 range, with 17 and 18 for CTC and CTO. My load time is 40, which gives me a BPS of 11.5ish according to the program.

I hit around 9 in bursts, I've never outrun the gun as I just don't shoot that fast.

I guess I could set it to FA and do it... but what's the fun in that?

DR

[Paladin]

"electro" Doesn't really effect the operation of the gun. Just the trigger feel. the "electro" parts are just how soem people here are choosing to measure their guns.

(GP) On most of the electro setups I've seen on cockers, one of the biggest limitations to cycling speed is the air flow through the 4-way/5-way valve or the barb fittings for the tubing. Same often holds true with mechanical setups as well.


right now we know that a cocker can fire more than 20 times a seccond with palladins testing. So I suppose we are just down to the ponit of gettign a reg that can recharge that fast (the stabilizer can do 20... )

(GP)Keep in mind that force feeding is required to go over about 10-12 bps. The Stabilizer will provide adequate air supply for 30 bps or more at about 500 psi if the gun is properly tuned and operating efficiently but the automation system components and fittings also have to be able to keep up.


I'm wondering waht fatter hoses will do for how fast the gun can be made to cycle.

(GP) Fatter hoses may help a tad bit but the flow restriction for the automation is in the fittings/hose barbs and the size of the air passages in and out of the 4-way. Many of the 4-way valves currently on the market have very small holes (.050" or less)for the o-rings on the spool to pass over in the body of the valve and only .040" to .050" air passage thru the barb fitting. Common tubing used on 'cockers is .062" ID.

Currently I just crank up the pressure on my rock to keep the gun cycling as crisply as I like. (I use that term becasue that's the way the gun feels when a LPR is adjusted "right" Just like the blazer)

(GP) With the "buit-in" format of the automation components of the Blazer and the hi flow design of our 4-way, it does not suffer from flow restrictions at all so the pressure from the Rock can be kept lower and maintain high cycle speed. Less wear and tear on the 4-way and ram plus generally smoother operation.
Also, as an adendum to something that TK posted earlier
with his calculations of pressure requirements for 300 bps rate; He stated that the 'cockers use a 1/4" bore ram but that is only partially true. Stock rams and most aftermarket rams for the 'cocker (including our QuikRam) are 3/8" or 10mm. There is one company out there marketing a 1/4" bore ram for the 'cocker but it is just too small to do the job properly as it requires too much pressure to cycle the gun effectively and overworks the seals on the other components.

Hmm... still need to build a test rig... [/B][/QUOTE][B]

[Paladin]

Originally posted by einhander619
90 bps sounds a little more plausible, still nuts, though!

(GP)While it may be possible for pneumatic automation to function at 90 cycles per second, I don't think it very likely that a 'cocker can be made to do it if it is asked to fire the same as it would if shooting paint. That would be asking the valve to deliver enough air to get the ball to speed 5400 times per minute. (high speed, single barrel firearms can get up to about 1200 RPM but then the action has quite a bit farther to move too) Seems to me that if you add up the time it takes to move the sear; for hammer travel; for valve dwell, ram travel both ways and feeding, even with force feeding, there doesn't seem to be enough milliseconds to go around. Also, the bolt would have to be moving so fast that it would likely break every ball it tried to slap into the barrel. Maybe "Perfect Circle" plastic balls could stand it but I doubt normal paint would.

I think I'm going to forward this thread to my physics prof, he'll probably make a test question out of it. Even if a cocker did 90 bps, it probably couldn't sustain it for more than a few seconds before it would simply fly apart!

(GP) Probably not fly apart real quick if built half way decent; and with a buffered ram to absorb some of the shock force of the reciprocating mass. However, you couldn't expect much in the way of longevity. :-)

Now, Tom, I didn't do the math, but following your example, 90 cycles a second would take something on the order of around 600 psi input pressure to the ram, correct?

(GP) I think you will find that flow rate will be more of a factor to high cycling speeds than pressure numbers are.
It only takes about 10 pounds of force to cycle the action against the hammer spring and a standard 10mm ram will acomplish that at about 80 psi. LP pneumatic components are typically rated to 150 psi. Once you have enough force to overcome resistance, you only need adequate flow rate to get it done quickly. For example: Consider a big, pneumatic jack hammer (say a 90 pounder commonly used in construction) They cycle extremely fast, something near 4000 blows per minute (66 per second) but air input is very high volume at only about 125 to 150 psi.

So much for low pressure...

Well, "low pressure" (depending on where you draw the line) is not all that it is hyped up to be anyway. The concept is certainly better for marketing than it is for shooting paintballs most effectively out of most paintguns.

[Paladin]

Originally posted by MrMag
it is SO hard to get a cocker over 9pbs. now i admit that i dont own one. but i have tried my friends old one, and the trigger and bolt just wont allow u to fire anything close to what er has stated. i am not a math/physics wizz like tk, but i can say this with complete assurance. this could be different w/ a racegun however.

It is not difficult at all to get a 'cocker to cycle faster than 9-10 bps but getting the human nervous system to operate faster is another story.
At 50+ years old, My nervous system operates at about 7 bps
(maybe 8bps when the game is on and adrenaline is up)
while my 25 year old son can shoot the same gun at about 12 bps.

[Paladin]

Originally posted by nerobro
IIRC the piston in a stock cocker is 3/16" not 1/4" That changes things singifigantly. the only ones with the 1/4" or smaller are the clippard minirams...

The piston diameter in a stock 'cocker is 3/8"-.375" .11 sq in. Same as the original clippard ram that was std on older 'cockers.
The miniram marketed by ANS is 6.5mm -.255" bore .049 sq in.
The Palmer QuikRam is 10mm -.393" bore .121 sq in.
The bore size of the ram used on Blazers and Typhoons is 7/16" or .412" = .133 sq in

With equal pressure and air passage sizes a larger bore will be just a tad slower moving as it takes slightly longer to fill the area behind the piston to get it moving. On the other hand, it will start moving before full pressure is reached behind it because of more force generated by the larger surface area. Thus, a larger bore takes much less pressure to do the same job and with adequate flow potential will move more than fast enough.
Then to soften and speed up the return stroke, we put an extra large shaft in it to reduce the surface area of the back of the piston.
With full use of the S.W.A.G method(scientific, wild assed guess) I estimate the maximum cycling speed of pneumatic automation (pneumation)and a dual acting linear cylinder/ram in a paintgun is going to be around 40 to 45 cycles/shots per second with compressed air/N2 and 30 to 35 with CO2.
The sad part is that eventually we will have a feed system and the understanding of how to reach such insane rates of fire with our paintguns; but what will we gain in doing so? More potential for serious injury? More anger and revenge on the field? More battered newbies that won't come out again? More disgruntled veterans (like myself) that truely loved the game of Paintball but find it lost to the to the games of Paintgun or Painball? (really miss the good old days when "Game" was the general topic of conversation in the staging area and the usual measure of a players skills. These days it is hard to find a conversation that doesn't revolve around the equipment and/or how much paint you can throw in a 5 min match or how many times you can hit someone before they can call themselves out)

Sorry, I'll get off my soap box now.

[DarkRipper]

/me waves at Glenn

:)
DR

[nicad]

The piston diameter in a stock 'cocker is 3/8"-.375" .11 sq in. Same as the original clippard ram that was std on older 'cockers.
The miniram marketed by ANS is 6.5mm -.255" bore .049 sq in.
The Palmer QuikRam is 10mm -.393" bore .121 sq in.
The bore size of the ram used on Blazers and Typhoons is 7/16" or .412" = .133 sq in

Glen- you da man, but you already knew that. :)
Thanks for posting this info.. I think its very useful for people to understand differences in pneumatic systems.
Also, I did not realize the QuikRam was designed with a larger shaft.. iv often wondered why this wasnt done (which it has for years, apperantly!) more often.. makes life so much more easier to setup a pinch-before-chop system.

out!

[AGD]

God I am SO glad Glen is here!!

AGD

[Vegeta]

Glen-
I totally agree with you view on the sport...
I find myself talking more about money spent and how much paint I lay down now much more than what I did when I played pump woods games. I really kick myself for it, but Paintball has evolved into a 'Rice Whore' sport. The more flashy you and your gun are.. the more influence you have on hte people around you.



OK sorry to get off topic. Back to the cycling.
Pnematic systems have their limits, as Glen described. Maybe the air in the lines between the 3 way and ram could be replaced with a water/oil driven hydraulic mini system? make it a bit heavier but the rate of actuating would be faster and mroe powerful than air. So basically we would be pushing water with air from a reg.. dunno if that limits anything or not. But dyed green water in clear tubes on a front block would own. (again with the flashiness)

[Paladin]

Originally posted by AGD
God I am SO glad Glen is here!!

AGD
Howdy folks,
I really like the way this forum lets you know when someone has responded to a message. Helps me keep in touch even after being away for awhile.

Was out of the country for the last 7 weeks. Thailand is a wonderful place this time of year. Very hot usually, but if can stay near water or in the mountains it isn't bad at all.

I'm going to try to help get one of the Thai teams here to the US for some tournaments. They too are stuck on speedball and glitsy equipment but man-o-man can they play ball and VERY honorably too. The air-bunker fields are perfectly suited to them and they are going to surprize the hell out of the top teams hear.:D :D (They don't play much in the woods/jungle there because ther are a few too many evil critters to deal with.)
Palmers Pursuit is likely to have a branch office in Thailand in the not too distant future. hehe

Any chance AGD will be at the big Scenerio Game at Skirmish, PA next month ? If not, will see you at the IOA in August.

[Paladin]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vegeta
Glen-
I totally agree with you view on the sport...
I find myself talking more about money spent and how much paint I lay down now much more than what I did when I played pump woods games. I really kick myself for it, but Paintball has evolved into a 'Rice Whore' sport. The more flashy you and your gun are.. the more influence you have on hte people around you.

Glitz doesn't impress me at all generally, and I really get a kick out of the guys that look down on my plain looking equipment with a 12 oz CO2 tank stuck on it. However, it is always quite gratifying when I here "Damn you Palmer" as they are walking off the field. :p


OK sorry to get off topic. Back to the cycling.
Pnematic systems have their limits, as Glen described. Maybe the air in the lines between the 3 way and ram could be replaced with a water/oil driven hydraulic mini system? make it a bit heavier but the rate of actuating would be faster and mroe powerful than air. So basically we would be pushing water with air from a reg.. dunno if that limits anything or not. But dyed green water in clear tubes on a front block would own. (again with the flashiness) [/QUOTE

Air driven hydraulics would be too slow for our needs. Liquid is too dense to move that fast and the storage and recovery harware needed to capture what is vented from the ram whan it changes directions would have to be pretty complex.

[Paladin]

Originally posted by nicad


Glen- you da man, but you already knew that. :)
Thanks for posting this info.. I think its very useful for people to understand differences in pneumatic systems.
Also, I did not realize the QuikRam was designed with a larger shaft.. iv often wondered why this wasnt done (which it has for years, apperantly!) more often.. makes life so much more easier to setup a pinch-before-chop system.

out!

The QuikRam has a 10mm bore with a 3/16" shaft (others use a 1/8" shaft)
On the Blazer, we use a 7/16" bore and a 1/4" shaft. Closing force is about 40% less than opening force and about 20% faster close that open. The Blazer will usually stop on a miss-feed instead of cut it.

[Vegeta]

OK lets look at is this way:

Say you have a line of metal balls that are set on a table in a straight line one milimeter apart. Now you have the same leght of balls, but few balls, and they are placed further apart- kinda spaced out. Now if you took your finger and pushed on the balls spaced one millimeter apart.. the ball line moves better becuase hte balls are right next to each other, therefore it does not take time for hte balls to travel to each other. Now if you goto the spread out balls, and push hte first one, it takes longer becuase the balls has to travel further than one milimeter.

The idea here is that the close together balls are liquid water, and the spread out balls are air. yes, water is heavier and more dense than air, but the water moulecues are much much closer together. for every molecue of water that is mover, one on the opposite end of the string moves too the exact distance, becuase the particles are so close together. Now in air, the particles are much further apart and therefore takes more force to move and object becuase all thsoe partcles have to move to 'build up' enough pressure to move the ram (or whatever)



That is my analysis. Take it and run.

[Paladin]

Originally posted by Vegeta
OK lets look at is this way:

Say you have a line of metal balls that are set on a table in a straight line one milimeter apart. Now you have the same leght of balls, but few balls, and they are placed further apart- kinda spaced out. Now if you took your finger and pushed on the balls spaced one millimeter apart.. the ball line moves better becuase hte balls are right next to each other, therefore it does not take time for hte balls to travel to each other. Now if you goto the spread out balls, and push hte first one, it takes longer becuase the balls has to travel further than one milimeter.

The idea here is that the close together balls are liquid water, and the spread out balls are air. yes, water is heavier and more dense than air, but the water moulecues are much much closer together. for every molecue of water that is mover, one on the opposite end of the string moves too the exact distance, becuase the particles are so close together. Now in air, the particles are much further apart and therefore takes more force to move and object becuase all thsoe partcles have to move to 'build up' enough pressure to move the ram (or whatever)



That is my analysis. Take it and run.

The principal that you are working withis that a liquid cannot be compressed.

Problem is that you forgot that the cylinder has to be evacuated on each opposing stroke and the liquid would take much longer to refill the chamber to move the cylinder. Again, getting through the fittings is the slow down. Due to viscous friction.

[Vegeta]

I was thinking having the area where hte water is completely sealed, and havign a ram push water on one end to push water on the other. The same would work with a vacuum in the tubes. but im talking serious component and it would be too bulky to run... hmmm just brainstorming dont kill me. :)

[Paladin]

Originally posted by Vegeta
I was thinking having the area where hte water is completely sealed, and havign a ram push water on one end to push water on the other. The same would work with a vacuum in the tubes. but im talking serious component and it would be too bulky to run... hmmm just brainstorming dont kill me. :)

That is why I put in the first post about it:
"Liquid is too dense to move that fast and the storage and recovery harware needed to capture what is vented from the ram whan it changes directions would have to be pretty complex." Very complex and yes, quite bulky.

However, it is fairly common knowledge that "high speed" automation and hydraulics don't mix. Simply the nature of the beast. The benifit of hydraulics is the shear force that can be generated with high pressures and the stability of the media that cannot be compressed.
I have a high speed production screw machine in my shop that is air and hydraulic automation. Air provides the control logic and sequence indexing automation but all cutting tool movement is hydraulic with slow steady movement for high precision. Another machine for more heavy duty machining is all hydraulic and it far slower operation.

[Paladin]

Originally posted by nicad
Death to Vegeta!!! :eek:

Na. We don't need him dead. His thinking and "brainstorming" process just hasn't matured yet. :)

Besides, to me its fun to see how other people think stuff up. Keeps me on my toes. :D

[Vegeta]

ok ok i see. I was thinking along the "give a partice, take a partice" line.. which is true but doesn't work for hte reason you have stated. desisty.

I would really like to seee exactly how the air gets flowing when the gun is shooting at high ROF.. almost fast enough to where the air is just being puched back n forth by the 3 way, possibly cuaseing a small amount of air to be 'stuck' in the center of the tubing between the ram and 3 way.. what would be neat would be to run water through the block (hear me out) and them go through a cycling process, puming high pressure water into the reg, not air. And dye the water in the inlet to the ram tube blue, and hte outlet, red. then see the reation.

That would be very neat.

[Vegeta]

oh and I don't haev the vast knowledge and resources that some of you do! I'm going off of stuff in books... I'm only a freshman.. they don't teach you stuff like this in school.. you have to learn it on your own.

If you wanna see some of my more *intelligent* work it's best to look back in Deep Blue at other topics. This whole cocker thing I am not too great at. Never owned one before.

[Paladin]

I would really like to seee exactly how the air gets flowing when the gun is shooting at high ROF.. almost fast enough to where the air is just being puched back n forth by the 3 way, possibly cuaseing a small amount of air to be 'stuck' in the center of the tubing between the ram and 3 way.. what would be neat would be to run water through the block (hear me out) and them go through a cycling process, puming high pressure water into the reg, not air. And dye the water in the inlet to the ram tube blue, and hte outlet, red. then see the reation.

That would be very neat. [/B][/QUOTE]

Two ways to see what you are looking for that I know of.

1) Put a small water tank that can handle about 100 psi or so, between the regulator and the 4-way. (yes 4-way valve, not a "3-way") A few ounces of colored liquid should be sufficient. Connect the line from the regulator to the top of the tank and the line to the 4-way to the bottom of the tank. Pressure from the reg will force water to the 4-way and out to the ram until the tank is empty. Be prepared to get wet as the water vents from the ram and out of the 4-way.

2)Make an adapter fitting to connect your household water to supply (typically about 50 to 60 psi) directly to the input of the 4-way. Put some colored water in the hose and connect it to the faucet. Back out the adjuster on the reg completely so it isn't putting out any air and the water pressure should be enough to cycle the gun but it will be slow.

Have fun. :D

[Paladin]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vegeta
[B]oh and I don't haev the vast knowledge and resources that some of you do! I'm going off of stuff in books...

"Knowledge and resources" are both just a matter of time and experience if you keep your head screwed on straight.

Keep it simple (K.I.S.S). This stuff only gets complicated when engineers get involved. ;)

[DarkRipper]

The funny thing is that on the racegun forums ( http://www.racegun.dk ) we've been discussing the best ram for the race cocker, and the majority say the quickram. I'm switching mine out soon... I currently have a STO ram. I'll let you know if it's actually faster.

DR

[Paladin]

Originally posted by DarkRipper
The funny thing is that on the racegun forums ( http://www.racegun.dk ) we've been discussing the best ram for the race cocker, and the majority say the quickram. I'm switching mine out soon... I currently have a STO ram. I'll let you know if it's actually faster.

DR

I'm already sure that the QuikRam is faster but it will be interesting to see just how much so. I don't have the means to actually measure in millisecond increments.
If nothing else, the slightly larger shaft on the QuikRam means that less volume of air has to be vented during extension and less volume is also needed for retraction.
In addition, the air passage thru the hose barb fittings on the QuikRam is slightly larger as well; to allow for faster air flow into the ram.
On the other hand,the control valve (5-way?) or it's output fittings may also be a limiting factor as was the case with the early kit the we got from Racegun. The ram cannot move any faster than the air flow that it gets from the valve. If there is not adequate flow thru the valve, unfavorably high pressures are needed to compensate.

[nicad]

Glenn-
dmcbr900rr made this observation over in the racegun fourms..

If anyone is interested, I just changed out my Shocktec ram with a Palmer Quick ram and my opening times went from 40 mS down to 25 mS. I have had three different Shocktec rams on my marker and they all were the same opening times.
The time he is refering to there is the time it takes for the ram to open the bolt/hammer to catch the sear.

I think the Racegrips are awesome for timing such activities.. gives you a real feel for whats going on and when..

out!

[Paladin]

Originally posted by nicad
Glenn-
dmcbr900rr made this observation over in the racegun fourms..

The time he is refering to there is the time it takes for the ram to open the bolt/hammer to catch the sear.

I think the Racegrips are awesome for timing such activities.. gives you a real feel for whats going on and when..

out!
VERY interesting. I'm actually a bit surprised it is that much faster. Nearly 40%. KEWL !!!
(pats self on the back)hehe Thanks
Now we'll wait and see how many others get similar results before I can start bragging. :D
I wonder what the reduction in close time is going to be?

[pbjosh]

Paladin-

From my experience the Quick Ram is faster than the Evo by 2-10ms for the open. Normally we see 25-35ms for the open with the Quickrams. The only ram that is close is the older STO rams.

Josh

[Paladin]

Originally posted by pbjosh
Paladin-

From my experience the Quick Ram is faster than the Evo by 2-10ms for the open. Normally we see 25-35ms for the open with the Quickrams. The only ram that is close is the older STO rams.

Josh

Thanks. Those numbers are more like I would have expected; to put it in the 10-20% faster range.
Have you got any test numbers on close time ?

[billynup]

Originally posted by Paladin

Palmers Pursuit is likely to have a branch office in Thailand in the not too distant future. hehe

Ive been looking for an excuse to move back... need a tech for the office?

[Paladin]

Originally posted by billynup


Ive been looking for an excuse to move back... need a tech for the office?

If you can understand and speak Thai I may just be able to give you the "excuse". :D If all goes well, it would be about a year away.
Please E-mail me to glenn@palmer-pursuit.com

[pbjosh]

Paladin-

Close times are harder to test. But I have tested the Close time (it takes alot of paint and time shooting F/A) and for the most part all the Rams close about 10-20% lower than the open time. Of course that means more testing. I will be tightening up my time on the Half-Block I have (with good old Palmer Front Pneus) and let you know how it does.

Billynup-

Sorry boy, you are staying.

Josh

[nicad]

pbjosh-
wouldnt it be easier to test the close times MY way? MuHAhaha! :D

MY way.. (http://www.racegun.dk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=590&FORUM_ID=5&CAT_ID=2&Topic_Title=timing+question+and+a+tip%2E%2E&Forum_Title=Software)

saves paint and air.. and the environment! well.. maybe.. ah what the heck.. screw the environment! :cool:

[ES13Raven]

Josh....

What inline regs can keep up with the Race @ 14bps?

[nerobro]

A unireg should come close.. given that the AIR can keep it up at 16bps (Accordign to the oddyssey paintball videos of the hyperframed AIR vavled mag) The Stabilizer can handle 20 bps (or thereabouts according to the AGD gun dyno) thanks glen for that magic peice of hardware ;-)

and... let's hope that the Rt inline reg is actually going to show up sometime.

[DarkRipper]

I have a angel minireg and it's horrible. It fluctuates madly... I need either a Stabe or a Sidewinder.

Nothing against the guys at Pro Paintball, their gun is excellent. You can only do so much with the WDP minireg design though.

DR

[Paladin]

Originally posted by ES13Raven
Josh....

What inline regs can keep up with the Race @ 14bps?
The Stabilizer can easily handle 14 bps out of any paintgun that I know of and do it with a VERY narrow range of variation. Just as long as the input flow and pressure into the reg is sufficiently higher than what is needed buy the gun.

[ES13Raven]

Glen...

When you say the Unireg is a 35:1 rated regulator, and the Stabilizer is a 70:1 rated reg, how did you test that?

[Paladin]

Originally posted by nerobro
A unireg should come close.. given that the AIR can keep it up at 16bps (Accordign to the oddyssey paintball videos of the hyperframed AIR vavled mag) The Stabilizer can handle 20 bps (or thereabouts according to the AGD gun dyno) thanks glen for that magic peice of hardware ;-)

and... let's hope that the Rt inline reg is actually going to show up sometime.

I really don't like to be contradictory to the AGD gun dyno but do believe that it's results given for a test of the Stabilizer to be just a tad on the conservative side. :rolleyes:
I have a rig here that I built in 1991 called the Grinder. Simply put, it is 3 closed bolt guns (Hurricanes actually)mounted side by side in a box that are crank operated and cam lobe activated. Each has it's own automation system but a single Rock reg supplies the air control for all three guns and a single Stabilizer controls the main supply to the whole rig from a single large CO2 tank. When I get that baby going, it is easy to reach the 30 bps range with all three guns spitting paint and The Stabilizer has never had a problem keeping up. Even with CO2, which moves a bit slower than compressed air does.
As I've stated before, my ways are quite old fashioned but I've seen the results for myself and repeated it numerous times. Therfore it leads me to believe that a 20bps capability for the Stabilizer is significantly understated.
Can't wait to see how test comparisons come out against the RT vertical reg. :D

[Paladin]

Originally posted by ES13Raven
Glen...

When you say the Unireg is a 35:1 rated regulator, and the Stabilizer is a 70:1 rated reg, how did you test that?

Simple mathematics. surface area of the plunger compared to port diameter of the valve seat.

[thei3ug]

Glenn,
When watching the test, I think the issue was that the stabe can hit that range before only partially recharging to the origional pressure before the next shot.

Shootdown or starvation are not always the next logical step. On spring/hammer driven markers, there is a fixed force being imparted on the valve. However, as the pressure within the valve drops, the force resisting the hammer lessens, valve dwell/WO time increases. I haven't reviewed this thread in awhile. If this has been disputed, by all means rip me to shreds.

As for buying an RT vertical reg... I'd be hard pressed to give up my stabe... it depends on whether the input is on the bottom or not. :P

[nicad]

"RT vertical reg"... whats this yall are refering to? have I been sleeping too long? :confused:
Arent most all of AirAmerica's vert/inline/main regs built from AGD reg parts?

Also Glenn- the ratio you mentioned.. doesnt that depict how much the reg's output will vary based on input pressure?
ie- 70:1 means for every 70psi variance on the input, 1 psi variance on the output-- due to the air pressure on the surface area of the exposed valve seat.

[Paladin]

Originally posted by thei3ug
Glenn,
When watching the test, I think the issue was that the stabe can hit that range before only partially recharging to the origional pressure before the next shot.

Shootdown or starvation are not always the next logical step. On spring/hammer driven markers, there is a fixed force being imparted on the valve. However, as the pressure within the valve drops, the force resisting the hammer lessens, valve dwell/WO time increases. I haven't reviewed this thread in awhile. If this has been disputed, by all means rip me to shreds.

As for buying an RT vertical reg... I'd be hard pressed to give up my stabe... it depends on whether the input is on the bottom or not. :P

I understand what you are saying and your depiction of the valve operation is right on. Also, correct about starving not always being the case. However,higher pressures and flow potential to the input of most regulators, does in fact increase the output flow rate potential of the regs valving. On a two stage regulation system, the cure for starvation is often to increase the output pressure from the primary reg. Style and positions of fittings, hose length, the air passages in the gun itself, etc etc. all have a particular bearing on recharge rates and often times more so than the reg itself.

Something to consider about the regs with the input line on the bottom: That style of regulator relys on the regulated air to close off the valve instead of backing off the plunger and spring to let he valve close. Much better suited to the hydraulic or liquid environment that they were originally designed for. A liquid, that cannot be compressed can hold the valve closed more effectively and consistently than a flexible volume of air/gas.

[Paladin]

Originally posted by nicad
"RT vertical reg"... whats this yall are refering to? have I been sleeping too long? :confused:
Arent most all of AirAmerica's vert/inline/main regs built from AGD reg parts?

I think you are right about the parts. The biggest advantage of the RT reg over the older versions is the much larger plunger diameter. Now 3/4" as opposed to the original 1/2" diameter plunger.

Also Glenn- the ratio you mentioned.. doesnt that depict how much the reg's output will vary based on input pressure?
ie- 70:1 means for every 70psi variance on the input, 1 psi variance on the output-- due to the air pressure on the surface area of the exposed valve seat.

That is exactly right and the varience is inverse. Meaning that as the input supply pressure goes down the regulated output goes up and vice versa; in that ratio equal to the dimensioning.

[ES13Raven]

Originally posted by Paladin
However,higher pressures and flow potential to the input of most regulators, does in fact increase the output flow rate potential of the regs valving. On a two stage regulation system, the cure for starvation is often to increase the output pressure from the primary reg.Glen,
Does this apply to the Govnair/WDP style of reg?

[Paladin]

Originally posted by ES13Raven
Glen,
Does this apply to the Govnair/WDP style of reg?

It applies to any pressure control device that I know of.
You just can't get any more air out of a reg than what you put into it. :)

[thei3ug]

Originally posted by Paladin

You just can't get any more air out of a reg than what you put into it. :)

Most definitely noted.

[ES13Raven]

Originally posted by Paladin
Something to consider about the regs with the input line on the bottom: That style of regulator relys on the regulated air to close off the valve instead of backing off the plunger and spring to let he valve close. Much better suited to the hydraulic or liquid environment that they were originally designed for. A liquid, that cannot be compressed can hold the valve closed more effectively and consistently than a flexible volume of air/gas. Is this why the Govnair/WDP minireg has a not-so-great recharge rate? (I'm assuming you are not talking about the MacDev Gladiator)

[nicad]

That is exactly right and the varience is inverse. Meaning that as the input supply pressure goes down the regulated output goes up and vice versa; in that ratio equal to the dimensioning.
Righto.. except in the opposing-type regs (Govnair/WDP/WGP), the varience is direct relation. kind of interesting...


You just can't get any more air out of a reg than what you put into it. :)
WHAT?!?! ok thats it im giving up all my beliefs.. heheh
:p

[Paladin]

Originally posted by ES13Raven
Is this why the Govnair/WDP minireg has a not-so-great recharge rate? (I'm assuming you are not talking about the MacDev Gladiator)

Quite honestly, I can't address the recharge rate of the WDP mini because I haven't yet disected that particular model for analysis.
What I mentioned about the "In-line" style regs is more focused on consistency and stability. Recharge rate is more an issue of flow rather than the functional design of the valve. That is unless there is a flow restriction is at the valve itself. A too small valve seat/orifice or too low supply pressure can/will limit output flow potential and increase the time it takes to fill the valve chamber.
I'm not familiar with the Gladiator reg either but if it of the design that uses input on one end and output at the other with the same valve format as the others. It too is likely to have the same limitations to actual consistency.
Simply the nature of the beast. It is a design best suited for liquid and patterened after the regulators used in hydraulic and fuel pressure control systems.

You kind of have to keep in mind here that I do a lot of work to accomodate the radical environment of CO2. When regulating CO2, operational inconsistencies become much more noticeable. Also, the density of CO2 is such that extra considerations are needed to allow for adequate flow speed and volume and those same considerations provide even better control and speed with HPA/N2.

[Paladin]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nicad
[B]
Righto.. except in the opposing-type regs (Govnair/WDP/WGP), the varience is direct relation. kind of interesting...

That is because the supply input on "In-line" reg is trying to hold the valve open while the input on a reg like the Stabilizer is holding the valve closed.

[DarkRipper]

This is one of the best discussions on regs I've ever read... informative but in a way that isn't taken right out of a science textbook with all sorts of diagrams and mathematical equations that mean diddly squat to me.

:)
DR

[orangejulius]

dr read it a couple of times and then see how you feel :)

[DarkRipper]

LOL

:)

No seriously.

Paladin, have you tested a Sidewinder to compare to a Stabilizer? I'm down to those two for my next reg for my Racegun... the WDP reg just doesn't hack it. 850 input and my FPS fluctuates up to 10 FPS with fresh paint.

Thanks!

DR

[Paladin]

Originally posted by DarkRipper
LOL

:)

No seriously.

Paladin, have you tested a Sidewinder to compare to a Stabilizer? I'm down to those two for my next reg for my Racegun... the WDP reg just doesn't hack it. 850 input and my FPS fluctuates up to 10 FPS with fresh paint.

Thanks!

DR

I don't do that sort of comparison testing. Not my style. I tested numerous formats during the development of my regs long ago (1988, when a reg suitable to the application simply did not exist) and landed on the one I found to work best.
I only test my own work to make sure it meets the demands.
Thus, evey item that we build becomes an opportunity to try to find a way to make the next one better.
I have expressed the benifits of various designs in previous posts. Simply put; the design format used in the Rock and Stabilizer regulators is better suited for air/gas pressure control than the "In-line" valve format used in the Sidewinder and other similar regs that function best in a non-copressable, liquid environment.

[nerobro]

Originally posted by Paladin

As I've stated before, my ways are quite old fashioned but I've seen the results for myself and repeated it numerous times. Therfore it leads me to believe that a 20bps capability for the Stabilizer is significantly understated.
Can't wait to see how test comparisons come out against the RT vertical reg. :D

maybe I should share tom's comment from that night. "wow, i'm going to need to call glen on monday" This was at 3am sunday morning after playing CCP till close :-)

This does bring up another point..... *suggests the thread be split into a new regulator discussion thread.... * What pressure is the grinder running? My cocker (the gun that was tested) was running 450psi according to the dyno. I honestly had no idea what it was running.... Gah, we could just solve all of this with a few hours on the gun dyno and a pile of inline regs ;-)

that brings up another point.. have you seen the recharge rate on the crossfire regs? the guage ALMOST does what the guage did with the stabilizer.

glen, when we hooked up your reg (the stab) and fired it on an an angel, the guage we put inline.. jumped UP then settled back to the regulated pressure ;-) it was quite shocking.

[DarkRipper]

Originally posted by Paladin
Simply put; the design format used in the Rock and Stabilizer regulators is better suited for air/gas pressure control than the "In-line" valve format used in the Sidewinder and other similar regs that function best in a non-copressable, liquid environment.

Good enough. Thanks Paladin.

DR

[Paladin]

Originally posted by nerobro


maybe I should share tom's comment from that night. "wow, i'm going to need to call glen on monday" This was at 3am sunday morning after playing CCP till close :-)

This does bring up another point..... *suggests the thread be split into a new regulator discussion thread.... * What pressure is the grinder running? My cocker (the gun that was tested) was running 450psi according to the dyno. I honestly had no idea what it was running.... Gah, we could just solve all of this with a few hours on the gun dyno and a pile of inline regs ;-)

that brings up another point.. have you seen the recharge rate on the crossfire regs? the guage ALMOST does what the guage did with the stabilizer.

glen, when we hooked up your reg (the stab) and fired it on an an angel, the guage we put inline.. jumped UP then settled back to the regulated pressure ;-) it was quite shocking.

How long ago was it that TK was going to call me ?
I've had a couple conversations with him about our regs; both on the phone and here at my shop. The look on TK's face and first comment, the first time he came into my shop was priceless. My shop is not at all like what most people expect to see. :eek:
I've got 500 psi of CO2 going into the Grinder from a remote Stabilizer. The line and fittings from the Stabilizer to the distribution manifold had to be enlarged to allow adequate flow but the gun valves are supplied through standard tubing and fittings with 1/8" diameter air passages.

The crossfire reg is a good unit but close only works with with horseshoes and hand grenades. ;)

On the Angel/Stabilizer test; at what point did the pressure spike ? On initial charge up or during use? On initial charge up, a reg with dry (lacking lubrication)plunger o-ring will commonly spike somewhat because the o-rings tend to stick to the sidewall of the tube a bit and requires a little extra pressure to get it going initially. Especially if it has been setting unused for awhile. If during use, spikes can be caused by even a minute dust partical caught in the valve and seal when it cycles. The trick is to use a valve design and seal material that will shed the garbage regularly gets through the air supply lines. Teflon tape and/or debri from fitting sealants causes many such problems. We see that sort of thing a great deal in the front regs on cockers. People unscrew the old reg from the front block and install the new one without cleaning the port. The new installation pushes the garbage back into the port and as soon as you cycle the gun, the debris is promptly pushed right into the regulator valve and then out to the 4-way. You might be surprised at the trouble that a very small shred of teflon tape can cause.

[nicad]

We see that sort of thing a great deal in the front regs on cockers. People unscrew the old reg from the front block and install the new one without cleaning the port. The new installation pushes the garbage back into the port and as soon as you cycle the gun, the debris is promptly pushed right into the regulator valve and then out to the 4-way. You might be surprised at the trouble that a very small shred of teflon tape can cause.

Glenn- a little off topic (but hey.. did someone say something an autotocker cycling..?) :) , was wondering why yall didnt put filters in the necks of the Rock regs to reduce/eleiminate this sort of problem? I believe the Shocktech regs come with filters in them..
later-
Colin

[nerobro]

Originally posted by Paladin
How long ago was it that TK was going to call me ?
I've had a couple conversations with him about our regs; both on the phone and here at my shop. The look on TK's face and first comment, the first time he came into my shop was priceless. My shop is not at all like what most people expect to see. :eek:


Um... it was the last day of the supertour... last fall I think. he went to your shop after that, i saw pics... it's like my bedroom ;-)



I've got 500 psi of CO2 going into the Grinder from a remote Stabilizer. The line and fittings from the Stabilizer to the distribution manifold had to be enlarged to allow adequate flow but the gun valves are supplied through standard tubing and fittings with 1/8" diameter air passages.


Wow, I didn't know that much engineering went into that little toy of yours. now if we could only get the RT blazers *grins*



The crossfire reg is a good unit but close only works with with horseshoes and hand grenades. ;)


They were using guages simmilar to what we used when we first looked at the stabilizer... then we put it on the dyno for the real results. Just so you know I have 900 going into my stab, and 450 coming out. I get a 3fps range over the chrono, usually less.. but it depends a lot on the paints shape ;-)



On the Angel/Stabilizer test; at what point did the pressure spike ? On initial charge up or during use? On initial charge up, a reg with dry (lacking lubrication)plunger o-ring will commonly spike somewhat because the o-rings tend to stick to the sidewall of the tube a bit and requires a little extra pressure to get it going initially. Especially if it has been setting unused for awhile. If during use, spikes can be caused by even a minute dust partical caught in the valve and seal when it cycles. The trick is to use a valve design and seal material that will shed the garbage regularly gets through the air supply lines. Teflon tape and/or debri from fitting sealants causes many such problems. We see that sort of thing a great deal in the front regs on cockers. People unscrew the old reg from the front block and install the new one without cleaning the port. The new installation pushes the garbage back into the port and as soon as you cycle the gun, the debris is promptly pushed right into the regulator valve and then out to the 4-way. You might be surprised at the trouble that a very small shred of teflon tape can cause.

Well here's the funny thing. The reg is well oiled, and well broken in. I get no first shot hot, I get no hot shots at all actually ;-) Here's what we were seeing. On the guage placed inline with the reg going to the gun the guage jumped up and then landed back at 450psi. This was the mechanical guage...... With the other regs you saw the guage drop and come up to pressure, with the stab it jumped and shook and landed right back at 450psi. So we took it to the dyno to see the real results. The recharge looked like it had an air heating spike like the RT does... just it didn't surpass the set pressure. It was really quite impressive.

As far as I can tell the reg is in perfect shape, no dirt or trash in it at all. And the dyno run just confirmed that. (that can be said even for my brass rock *grins some more*)

[ES13Raven]

Originally posted by Paladin
That is because the supply input on "In-line" reg is trying to hold the valve open while the input on a reg like the Stabilizer is holding the valve closed. So which regs on the market hold the valve open, and which ones hold it closed?

[Paladin]

Originally posted by ES13Raven
So which regs on the market hold the valve open, and which ones hold it closed?

As far as I know, all the regs with the input on the end of the reg ("In-line") are such that the input supply is trying to hold the valve open. If the input to the reg is up near the output, it is pretty safe to assume it is such that the input supply is holding the valve closed until acted against by the spring and plunger.

[Paladin]

Originally posted by nicad


Glenn- a little off topic (but hey.. did someone say something an autotocker cycling..?) :) , was wondering why yall didnt put filters in the necks of the Rock regs to reduce/eleiminate this sort of problem? I believe the Shocktech regs come with filters in them..
later-
Colin

Cintered metal filters present their own set of problems and our valving is not nearly as susceptable to the garbage that would quickly kill many other regs. The schrader style valve used in the Shocktech regs is extremely vulnerable to seal problems from debris.

[ES13Raven]

Originally posted by Paladin
Quite honestly, I can't address the recharge rate of the WDP mini because I haven't yet disected that particular model for analysis.Glen...
Here is a diagram of the WDP/Govnair minireg. What can you tell us about the design?

[Paladin]

Originally posted by ES13Raven
Glen...
Here is a diagram of the WDP/Govnair minireg. What can you tell us about the design?

Pretty much the same layout as the rest of that style reg.
Regulated air pressure against the top side of the large piston overcomes the pressure between the two small seals and pushes the large piston back to close off the air thru the large pistion by pushing the tip of the large piston against the seal on the tip of the small piston. However, I can see details as to orofice sizes and shapes so I cannot offer an analysis of it's potential.

[Butterfingers]

Glenn what would be the effect of using compressed helium gas to power paintball guns. According to the Root Mean Square Equation (RMS) for ideal gasses gasses that are lower in molecular weight have a higher velocity and thus flow faster.

For example Diatomic Nitrogen (N2) has a molecular weight of 28 amu.

Compared to Co2 which has a molecular weight of 44 amu.

If you take the root mean square of the ratio of (28/44)^-1/2 you will find that the ratio corresponds to 5/7.

This means that co2 flows at 5/7ths the speed of N2.

This explains one reason why gaseous co2 is slower than gaseous N2. This data also seems to correlate with your experimental data.

Helium has a molecular weight of 2 amu

If you plugged helium into the RMS equation compared to compressed air (2/28)^-1/2

You will find that helium flows more than 5 times faster than nitrogen. This could prove useful in maxing the potential of the pnumataics.

[Paladin]

Good question !! May just have to get a tank of helium and see what it will do. I don't know how to calculate what the effects would be so I would have to experience what transpires in a given setup during direct comparisons.
Ceratilny, the internal balistics/acceleration process of the shot will be affected and I would guess that cycling speeds and recharge rates would be faster.




Originally posted by Butterfingers
Glenn what would be the effect of using compressed helium gas to power paintball guns. According to the Root Mean Square Equation (RMS) for ideal gasses gasses that are lower in molecular weight have a higher velocity and thus flow faster.

For example Diatomic Nitrogen (N2) has a molecular weight of 28 amu.

Compared to Co2 which has a molecular weight of 44 amu.

If you take the root mean square of the ratio of (28/44)^-1/2 you will find that the ratio corresponds to 5/7.

This means that co2 flows at 5/7ths the speed of N2.

This explains one reason why gaseous co2 is slower than gaseous N2. This data also seems to correlate with your experimental data.

Helium has a molecular weight of 2 amu

If you plugged helium into the RMS equation compared to compressed air (2/28)^-1/2

You will find that helium flows more than 5 times faster than nitrogen. This could prove useful in maxing the potential of the pnumataics.

[nicad]

{dumb}
..not to mention helium would make your tank lighter as you get an "air" fill! lol.. ;)
{/dumb}

[Paladin]

Originally posted by nicad
{dumb}
..not to mention helium would make your tank lighter as you get an "air" fill! lol.. ;)
{/dumb}

Ya, and everyone would be sounding like Donald Duck.:D

[DarkRipper]

Originally posted by Paladin


Ya, and everyone would be sounding like Donald Duck.:D

Especially indoors!! You beat me to it.

:D
DR

[hitech]

Someone has tried it:


Originally posted by AGD
Our friend Ed Head did try helium. Didn't hardly shoot the ball but make big boom! Not enough gram moles to get the ball going and it leaked out of all the orings (really small molecules). Great discussion here guys.

AGD

[Paladin]

Originally posted by hitech
Someone has tried it:



Makes sense.I didn't think that the very low density of the gas would allow for propper acceleration.
Shows why I continue to prefer CO2 over compressed air/N2.:p

[nicad]

Guess what yall? I actually have something here that has something to do with the topic! :)
Jom (dunno if he posts here) over on the racegun fourm posted this clip of him with his Race cocker in full auto, equiped with an ACE, and fed by a Halo. my cheezy analysis of the audio track results in about 17 to 17.5 bps over most of the clip. the halo starts slowing down (low on paint) in the end and thus the fall off of speed.
http://www.compulsivepaintball.com/jom/racemovie3.avi
n'joy!

[Butterfingers]

The problem with helium is not that it does not provide enough energy to propell the ball.

The problem is that it flows too fast and the paintball does not adequately seal before it leaks between the irregularities in the breach bolt and paintball.

If you had a perfect seal it would propel the paintball with the same amount of force. 600psi equals 600psi no matter how we put it.

Pressure in a vessel or the pressure that propells a paintball is determined by the elastic collisions of gas molecules upon the walls of a container or paintball. In which kinetic energy is for the most part conserved.

To put this into perspective. A molecule of nitrogen is a dump truck. A molecule of helium is a car. The dump truck is moving at 10 mph the car is moving at 100 mph. They both have the same energy.

The car "stores" its energy as speed.

The truck "stores" its energy as mass.

If they both hit an object they will transfer the same amount of energy.

The Root Mean Square equation is derived from the kinetic energy of gasses. And assumed to be equal under a certain pressure.

It is assumed that the kinetic energy of gas particles under the same pressure have the same kinetic energy. 1/2mv^2=1/2mv^2. The Root Mean Squared equation is derived from this equation.

To simulate this situation put a .30 caliber paintball into the barrel of a .68 caliber paintball gun then fire the gun.

The ball will simply bloop out.

[Paladin]

Major confusion !!!
A car and a truck both have basically the same molecular density though 1 obviously has less mass.
Seems contrary to your conclusions as to cause.
With such low molecular density, it cannot impart the energy from it's high speed on the ball. Remember, it's density is only 1/14th that of air but it only moves about 5 times faster. Just doesn't add up.
If the low density gas could impart its will onto the ball effectively, simple acceleration will generate enough lineal upset of the ball to create the seal in the breach.
The "leaks" around the ball would be sealed if the gas was dense enough to impart its energy to the ball.




Originally posted by Butterfingers
The problem with helium is not that it does not provide enough energy to propell the ball.

The problem is that it flows too fast and the paintball does not adequately seal before it leaks between the irregularities in the breach bolt and paintball.

If you had a perfect seal it would propel the paintball with the same amount of force. 600psi equals 600psi no matter how we put it.

Pressure in a vessel or the pressure that propells a paintball is determined by the elastic collisions of gas molecules upon the walls of a container or paintball. In which kinetic energy is for the most part conserved.

To put this into perspective. A molecule of nitrogen is a dump truck. A molecule of helium is a car. The dump truck is moving at 10 mph the car is moving at 100 mph. They both have the same energy.

The car "stores" its energy as speed.

The truck "stores" its energy as mass.

If they both hit an object they will transfer the same amount of energy.

The Root Mean Square equation is derived from the kinetic energy of gasses. And assumed to be equal under a certain pressure.

It is assumed that the kinetic energy of gas particles under the same pressure have the same kinetic energy. 1/2mv^2=1/2mv^2. The Root Mean Squared equation is derived from this equation.

To simulate this situation put a .30 caliber paintball into the barrel of a .68 caliber paintball gun then fire the gun.

The ball will simply bloop out.

[pbjosh]

Uhm,

So, if we found a Gas that had a molecular density higher than CO2 how might that affect the action of the paintball gun and the efficentcy?

Josh

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by Paladin
Major confusion !!!
A car and a truck both have basically the same molecular density though 1 obviously has less mass.
Seems contrary to your conclusions as to cause.
With such low molecular density, it cannot impart the energy from it's high speed on the ball. Remember, it's density is only 1/14th that of air but it only moves about 5 times faster. Just doesn't add up.
If the low density gas could impart its will onto the ball effectively, simple acceleration will generate enough lineal upset of the ball to create the seal in the breach.
The "leaks" around the ball would be sealed if the gas was dense enough to impart its energy to the ball.






Kinetic energy of a particle quadruples as speed doubles.

its a expotential relationship.

To put this into perspective...

A 53 grain .223 Remington (1200 ft/lbs) at 3300 fps has more muzzle energy that a 230 Grain .45 (356 ft/lbs) at 835 fps.

The .45 weighs about 4 times as much and is about 4 times slower. If speed and mass were proportional the muzzle energies would be the same.

As you can see the muzzle energy of the smaller .223 is over 3 times greater.

As a side note this is why velocities must be kept under 300 fps.

Doubling the velocity quadruples the energy!

[Paladin]

Originally posted by pbjosh
Uhm,

So, if we found a Gas that had a molecular density higher than CO2 how might that affect the action of the paintball gun and the efficentcy?

Josh

Might be interesting to try it and see what the effects would be and what changes to the equipment would be needed for accurate comparisons. Does such a "gas" even exist ?

Quite frankly, I tend to believe that there is just no better way to propell a paintball for our needs than with good ole CO2. Based only on the long established safe speed limit of 300 fps at the muzzle. If the pellets and/or speed limits change significantly, it may be a benifit to seek alternative propellants.
In my view, compressed air/N2 seems more a benifit to the functionality of some of the the equipment rather than the performance of the shot. Even then, if properly controlled, CO2 generally iss not a detriment to most of the equipment out there.

[Butterfingers]

Pretty much all noble gasses would suffice.

Krypton and Xenon both weigh more than compressed air.

There are also synthetic organic gasses such as tetrafluoroethane and R-134 "ozone safe freon". Which have molecular weights well into the 100's. Analouges to these substances may be found in cans of "dust off" computer spray duster or as a propelant for aeresol products.

The problem is that the heavier you go the lower the pressure equalibrium will be. These gasses may boil at sub 100 psi whereas co2 boils off at around 800 psi.

Heavier gasses tend to have more london dispersion forces which tend to hold molecules together.

[Paladin]

Originally posted by Butterfingers
Pretty much all noble gasses would suffice.

The problem is that the heavier you go the lower the pressure equalibrium will be. These gasses may boil at sub 100 psi whereas co2 boils off at around 800 psi.

Heavier gasses tend to have more london dispersion forces which tend to hold molecules together.

Can we also expect to see large variables in pressures in relation to temperature is such "heavy" gases.

It is my understanding that CO2 looses ability to sustain liquid saturation at about 550 psi.

[Butterfingers]

yes, the pressure equalibriums of these gasses like co2 tend to vary greatly with temprature also.

If you chill a can of "dust off" in the freezer you could hack the can open and see the liquid sloshing around on the bottom. At this temprature "dust off" exerts 0 psi.

[pbjosh]

Oh well, back to the original thread, I shot my Half-Block at 15+ today. Yippie!

Josh

[SSMercury]

Originally posted by Butterfingers


As you can see the muzzle energy of the smaller .223 is over 3 times greater.

As a side note this is why velocities must be kept under 300 fps.

Doubling the velocity quadruples the energy!

So this means it takes approximately 4 times the gas to make a paintball travel from 150 fps to 300 fps?

[Butterfingers]

It may vary... depending on how efficent the gun is at 150 fps compared to 300 fps.

[the electrician]

like tom and Doc said, cycle rate , and fire rate are two different things.with stiff springs, high cocking psi and other modifications a cocker could be made to cycle extremely fast. but I wouldn't want to try and shoot it like that.
I've done some feed tests of my own with my homemade electro cocker.the ram stroke was modified, an exhaust valve was added to one side of the ram and many other mods were done to the gun.
cocking solenoid valve "on times" were measured along with sear solenoid "on times", "delay recock times" and "bolt close times"
I came up with 4 msec for "sear solenoid on time"
7 msec for "delay recock time"
61 msec for "recock solenoid valve on time"
and 8 msec for "bolt close time"
now the " sear solenoid on time" is not added into to the total because both it and the recock delay timer start at the same time.
so this leaves 76 msec. approx. 13.15 balls per second
this is on a right hand feed cocker.
other tests showed that vertical feed, fed faster by about 10 msec. also a larger stack of balls between hopper and breech would increase the feed rate also.
All in all, I beleive that an autococker could be heavily modified, and force fed to shoot 17 bps.
I beleive it is much easier to get an automag to shoot at this rate.

[nicad]

the electrician-
your very close. my post farther up somewhere had this link in it. its of an electronic (race) autococker going 17.5bps vert feed with halo..

http://www.compulsivepaintball.com/jom/racemovie3.avi

out!

[pbjosh]

Hello,

Now that we are back on the subject,

Jom's merlin is using these settings:

7 for Shot
7 for Dwell
14 for Open
1 for Load
12 for Close

Now, this allows for a potential 29.4 bps. But a ball would have to load in 1 ms. I have timed HALO and Warps at about an 8-10 ms load time. So, a faster 12v Warp fed by a HALO might be able to feed Jom's Merlin with a Load set to 10. With a load of 10 the gun should be able to shoot at 23.3 bps. If we force fed it even faster, say with a stick feed that was 'Air Assist' like the RT was tested with it might be able to hit 25+.

Josh

[the electrician]

you are definitely in the right area for shaving time.
I don't quite understand why the race grip uses two clocks to control the recock solenoid valve on time. they have "open time" and "load time" in series with each other. they essential do the same thing.
the cycle rate of a cocker could be very high with higher operating psi, higher cocking psi, stiffer springs and a larger valve.with light springs the valve would eventually begin to "float".I beleive you could reach 33 cycles per sec before the valve began to float in a cocker. but it damn well wouldn't shoot any paint with current loaders.

I believe that the only electro cocker capable of really high ROF is the sandridge.it is able to use stiffer hammer and valve springs because of the use of a ram instead of a solenoid.
heavy hammers are essentially detrimental to cycle speed, but they are helpful for direct solenoid actuation of the sear.

[nicad]

electrician- ya seem vey knowledgable in the area.. its always good to see that there is hope out there. :)

The dual times for open and load are a little overkill in my opinion.. but it is nice to visulize the times in a chronological timeframe..

The race's "direct" solenoid ,as opposed to the F5's solenoid/vavle/ram for acutating the sear, can easly trip the sear on any of the heaviest spring setups out there (when setup properly). I can push on my recocking knob about as hard i can and the grip will still trip the sear.
its not actually direct acting.. it trips a sub-sear in which gives way to the main sear. mucho-amplification of holding power.. :)
So really, the race should be capable of going faster than an F5 because it eleimates the pneumatic delay in tripping the sear.

out!

[the electrician]

I have never taken one apart. I've seen some close-up pics, but that's it.I know is uses a horizontal mounted solenoid with what looks like a small roller on it that moves out of the way of the sear to let it come down.Very cool design.

I personaly, prefer the solenoid actuated sear instead of a ram for the simple fact of eliminating the "pneumatic" element from the grip frame. it's just a simpler design with out it.
My electro is a homemade one. I use a direct solenoid acuated, stock sear. and yes you are right, the reaction time is much better than using a ram.I use a MAC valve to control the recock.the gun is also modified in other ways to improve performance. It shoots plenty fast for my old fingers.

But, I have a homemade e-mag mod that shoots real fast, real easy. I remember people talking about having velocity drop off in thier mags and needing some aftermarket parts to fix it. HA! a standard mag valve, all stock, can shoot extremely fast with no drop off at all. full auto tests have shown that it easily out shoots my 12v Rev.

well I seem to have gotten off track, my apologies.

[314159]

Originally posted by nicad

So really, the race should be capable of going faster than an F5 because it eleimates the pneumatic delay in tripping the sear.


if the delay of the mac valve turning on, and the air moving along about 6 in of hose, and activating the ram is consistant (which i beleve it is) then the delay factor is only a issue for the first shot. and if you judge rate of fire by balls that come out the barrel per second, it is not an issue at all. if the gun can hold one shot in it's firing que (trigger event while the gun is currently firing), for the 2nd and following firing cycles, you can just send the signal (the amount of time of the delay) before you want the sear pull, and thus you eliminate form the firing cycles 2+.

[pbjosh]

The Racegun/F5 debate about which is faster has a couple of things people don't realize involved.

I do not know how the Sandy is timed for dwell. I know it is easy to time in the dwell to match the what the gun does on the Racegun setup. This might allow for a faster gun, but also the Sandy can be timed just as close.

The Shot setting can be turned down to 3ms or less on the Racegun setup. I have no clue how long the Sandy takes. Now, on both the Sandy and the Race all you are doing is dropping the hammer, so the hammer still needs to move forward, hit a valve, air gets released, etc. So, the time for the MAC to turn on and drop the sear will add to the time. I have no clue though how long that is. In another project I used a Solenoid Valve to active a piston, and it took 3-4 ms for the piston to activate. That is close to the same length of time.

The Sandy has a VERY nice SMC ram. But, it is not quite as fast as most Palmer QuikRams. So, by having a great ram on a Racegun, you can increase the ROF past the Sandy.

Since you time the Solenoidvalve on to match the actual time it takes to open, you can time it within 1-2 ms of the true Open Time. I am not sure, but the time the curcuit takes to register the Hall Effect sensors and wait to double check you might lose a couple millisec.

The speed of the Racegun setup with an ACE is FAST. Alot faster than I would have thought. It might be faster than the Sandy. Again, I have no clue. Some reflective ACE's are alot slower, and have a send/receive lag time of 5ms.

In all of these setups we can see the little differences a couple millisecs here or there can affect the total time. I think both the Sandy and Racegun are hella fast.

Electrician-

I have a couple questions and thoughts for ya-

The Open/Load on the Racegun program is total on time for the 5-way Solenoidvalve. But the Open setting is to test how long the Ram takes to really open. By setting the Load to 1ms you can see if the solenoidvalve is open long enough. If it isn't, then the bolt won't open long enough for the sear to be connected. After you have the Open figured out, then you can tune in the Load to match the loader, and test. If your gun is chopping, you just up the load. But you don't change to Open time. That is set.

And, by setting the Open to match your gun, you can then figure out the Close time.

Now, if you test the Open time on your gun by setting the 2nd Solenoid On time down to the point that the guns just cycles, and not 1 ms more, then you figure out the true Open time. Then depending on your loader you can figure the load time and set the total solenoid On time to match what your gun really does. I understand just one setting is easier, but for testing rams/loaders and stuff the two settings are kinda slick.

You close time seems really short. Just from my testing. Can you try the Open testing and let me know what you get, plus maybe the Ram you are using? Thanks!

Josh

[the electrician]

now I can understand why you would want two clocks for that function. it let's you see the effects of making ram mods and the biggie, changing your cocking psi. cocking psi is the main thing that effects open time, and of course, close time.
my cocking psi is about 50, using a STO ram that is modified to 1 1/4" stroke and an exhaust valve added to decrease opposition to the back stroke of the ram.the gun will work well at 35 psi, but I like the faster open and close times I get at 50 psi.

as far as times go, my times probly are different due to programming. what is your close time on the race? and what is it measured from?

I plan on trying a new bolt design that "should" increase fps and effeciency. but I'm sure some time adjustments will have to be made.

[kcpaintballer]

i was pondering upon copying the electricians idea for an electric cocker... then it hit me! the only reason a cocker is so slow is cause the ram is moving a back block, bolt, stainless pin, cocking rod, hammer, it is also working by compressing that darn spring. well just tonight i finished my e-cocker. it has a single acting ram in the bottom tube it is controlled by a mac, fed from a second lpr. the hammer is threaded to the ram. i am using a morlock board to control it. well my gun shoots and then the ram pulls the hammer back before the bolt is even moving to load a ball. the best part about this is that the pressure on the back block is minimal cause it doesnt need a whole lot of air just to move the bolt back and forth. sorry for my poor explanation. --travis--
p.s. it is almost impossible to chop a ball with this setup

[314159]

almost sounds like an excalibur... ;)

[kcpaintballer]

kinda but on this the hammer ram is single acting so it actually starts to return during the valve dwell time. in a hurry will post more later --travis--

[fenris69]

very nice kc , have you thought about a bolt to hammer linkage similar to a micrococker? I'm currently trying to work on a electro cocker drop in conversion without the aid of a controlling board...quite the pain finding an alternate way to delay the ram movement without the aid of a second switch :) That deadly wind project is one way to go with dual solonoids and a ram tripping the sear, he claims a 15bps or so, but there are other homemade projects on autococker.net using a morlock board....er...you wouldnt happen to be one of em?

[kcpaintballer]

i wasnt trying to get the effect of a micrococker cause i want the ram that drives the bolt to have as little pressure as possible. if i were to use a linkage similar to that the ram would have to compress a spring and pullthe hammer assembly back all at once. this is what i believe slows down the cocker. my design does not depend upon the backblock moving anything but the bolt. the hammer assembly is all internal and has its own ram that controls it. --travis--
p.s. try a capacitor inline for the delay...

[fenris69]

cool design you ended up with, post a pic! :)
A capacitor was suggested to my by my sysadmin actually, but I've yet to find one of suitable size and delay for the frame, but thats my main option at this point.

[Dubstar112]

I have an idea :)

Two X-ways: One at a low enough pressure to move the ball with out breaking it, or low enough to pinch, that would be the X-way used for closing the block. A separate one would be used for opening, at a higher pressure, to keep the opening cycle up to speed.

Ive got a couple ideas im going to test.

[Paladin]

A properly designed air cylinder (ram) can provide a substantial decrease in the force applied on the retraction side of the cylinder when compared to the force that is achieved on the extension stroke of the cylinder.
The reduction of force is equal to the amount of surface area of the face of the piston that is taken up by the shaft. The larger the shaft in relation to the piston size the greater the diferential in the force between extension and retraction of the cylinder.
Thus you can soften the return stroke inside the ram without using seperate controls and regulators for the automation.





Originally posted by Dubstar112
I have an idea :)

Two X-ways: One at a low enough pressure to move the ball with out breaking it, or low enough to pinch, that would be the X-way used for closing the block. A separate one would be used for opening, at a higher pressure, to keep the opening cycle up to speed.

Ive got a couple ideas im going to test.

[nicad]

listen to Paladin.. hes all about that! :-D

thats how i made my ram/bolt in this project.. it has about 3x the surface area pushing back as it does forward.

http://www.racegun.dk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1094&FORUM_ID=9&CAT_ID=2&Topic_Title=sorry+its+not+a+Race%2E%2E+but+ohwell% 2E%2E+%3A%29&Forum_Title=Pictures

out!

[carr612]

...from finding out max rof to guessing the specs of the cocker with the highest rof, i thought this was 'deep blue', not 'stabbin' in the dark'...

[314159]

found this laying around, not shure if it has been posted before

http://www.planeteclipse.com/www2001/video/eframe_lores.wmv

[Redkey]

for example....

The Bimba ram on my desk has a 5/16 diameter body... I would guess a 0.25 diameter piston and a 1/8 (0.125) diameter shaft.

At 100 psi this ram could push (extend) with a force of 4.9 lbs and pull (retract) with a force of 3.6 lbs... a difference of about 25%.

[the electrician]

I don't believe Bimba makes a 1/4" bore cylinder, but they do make a 5/16" bore cylinder.on this cylinder the retraction power factor is about 84 percent of the extension force. so the difference isn't that much, but of course if the bore size decreases and the rod size stays the same, the difference in force will increase.

KCpaintballer,AKA Travis, hows your project going? there was another guy who had the same design as you that I was trading info with about a year ago, I wish I could remeber his name. He used to visit the Tinker's Guild regularly. he designed his own inegrated ram/hammer.

So you ended up going with a spring return, single acting cylinder? I have been working on a way to use one lpr to conrol both cylinders, the recock and hammer actuation. let me know how much psi your running into the hammer cylinder.

~E~

[kcpaintballer]

don, all help or references are appreciated... (you know that). i got her all together... now, all i have to perfect is those finishing touches i.e. brackets, hard lines, etc. about my hammer pressure... well its fairly low, but it could be lower, all i have to do is raise my input pressure and increase dwell. what i am so proud of is the bolt pressure, lets just say its about my age maybe less. shot a case of gap and not 1 break none in barrell or breach. also ran through some old midnite that had been sitting out for a long time. i had only 2 or 3 breaks but they were in barrell (swollen paint). the paint had been sitting out in the armory since the last hodge park tourney. later --travis--
p.s. i also got a new hopper... somethin you should check out :)

[SporksRUS]

Ive only read the first few post on this and it was about how fast a cocker could shoot. My cocker blazes. This attatched video shows a cocker at best, its not mine, take a look! Blazin Fast Autococker in action! (http://www.planeteclipse.com/www2001/video/eframe_hires.mpg)

[mag-hatter]

how fast is that shooting and how much $ is put into that thing :D.

[SporksRUS]

That is a stock Eclipse Eblade autococker. The frame itself can be had for about 400. Its an easy install on any autococker.

[ES13Raven]

Originally posted by Paladin
(GP)On most of the electro setups I've seen on cockers, one of the biggest limitations to cycling speed is the air flow through the 4-way/5-way valve or the barb fittings for the tubing. Same often holds true with mechanical setups as well.

I'm wondering waht fatter hoses will do for how fast the gun can be made to cycle.

(GP) Fatter hoses may help a tad bit but the flow restriction for the automation is in the fittings/hose barbs and the size of the air passages in and out of the 4-way. Many of the 4-way valves currently on the market have very small holes (.050" or less)for the o-rings on the spool to pass over in the body of the valve and only .040" to .050" air passage thru the barb fitting. Common tubing used on 'cockers is .062" ID.On that note......

What will get better performance.....

A hose from the LPR to the 5-way that is as short as possible, or one with some slack in it so the 5-way has a little more regulated air to draw from?

[Paladin]

Originally posted by ES13Raven
On that note......

What will get better performance.....

A hose from the LPR to the 5-way that is as short as possible, or one with some slack in it so the 5-way has a little more regulated air to draw from?

Not enough gain in volume to make any difference.
Typically, shorter air passages relate to faster transfer speeds.

[Duganator]

I didn't feel like reading through the entire four pages of talk so if someone has already posted autocockers can cycle faster than 10 oh well. They have shot raceguns at 20+bps. This was a very inefficient setup and required completely new internals but it worked. I will try to find the video of it and post a link.

[ES13Raven]

Originally posted by Duganator
This was a very inefficient setup and required completely new internals but it worked.It was done on a FreeFlow cocker, and the only things changed were the bolt and hammer. The bolt is a RaceGun Delrin, and the hammer a RaceGun bronze :M: hammer.

Also, it was not the new FreeFlow SMC Ram, but an STO Ram. 20 BPS without an ACE as well. ;)

Here is the link to the video:
http://www.raceguns.dk/data/RGP_512x409.avi

[ES13Raven]

Just to bring back an old thread, and share some new data.....

With my Dark FreeFlow set to 300fps, I was able to get my Open time down to 7ms :eek:

I used a Pneumadyne Quick Exhaust Valve on the rear port of my SMC FF Ram:
http://www.air-powered.com/uploads/post-16-1048015739.jpg

Glenn,

Have you ever tried using these on your Rams?

[Paladin]

Originally posted by ES13Raven
Just to bring back an old thread, and share some new data.....

With my Dark FreeFlow set to 300fps, I was able to get my Open time down to 7ms :eek:

I used a Pneumadyne Quick Exhaust Valve on the rear port of my SMC FF Ram:

Glenn,

Have you ever tried using these on your Rams?

No, we haven't yet tried that particular model. The important thing to note here is that such release valves don't really help the ram as much as compensating for limited flow through the vent in the control valve.
Did you try one of those valves on the front of the ram too ? If so, did it make any difference ?

[nerobro]

paladin: You mention that the hose length isn't really a serious determining factor. What about larger ID hose? I'm not sure anythign is available comercially that would suit the situation though.

MOdern cockers don't need LP chambers on the front of thegun. that leaves space to install a small tank of reserve air for the ram...I wonder if it would make a difference in cycle time.

[Paladin]

Originally posted by nerobro
paladin: You mention that the hose length isn't really a serious determining factor. What about larger ID hose? I'm not sure anythign is available comercially that would suit the situation though.

MOdern cockers don't need LP chambers on the front of thegun. that leaves space to install a small tank of reserve air for the ram...I wonder if it would make a difference in cycle time.

A larger ID hose isn't going to do you much good without larger ID ports for it to connect to. The hoses used on most 'cocker front ends are pretty short and not likely to be a problem. However, if you have a piece of tubing with .065" ID that is connected to a hose barb with .050", it cannot move any more air than the smallest orofice in the system. On most pneumatics setups, it is the size of the ports in the hose barbs and the air movement through the pneumatics components that dictate speed of actuation.
The regulator should provide more than enough accumulator chamber to cycle the ram as quickly as possible but it still has to move the air flow through the control valve thus making the control valve and hose barbs most likely to be the culprits in slow cycling speeds.

[ES13Raven]

Originally posted by Paladin
The important thing to note here is that such release valves don't really help the ram as much as compensating for limited flow through the vent in the control valve.
Did you try one of those valves on the front of the ram too ? If so, did it make any difference ? Well.... I tested my best Open time right before I installed it, and it was 14ms. That is pretty damn low to start, but just by putting on the QEV I was able to lower it to 7ms. Micro Rock was at 85psi.

I'm sure that adding another QEV to the front port will increase speed as well, but I didn't install one on purpose. I wanted to keep the force of the bolt softer.

It should be just as fast as the Open without a QEV, as there is no mainspring force the ram has to work against right?

[nerobro]

paladin: Maybe I should have mentioned larger nipples. I was assuming that was clear. Larger ID hose wouldn't work without larger fittings to go with it. So we can rest assured that the rocks have sufficant reserve volume built in ;-) Speaking of which... there's a broken brass rock coming your way...*sniffles*

[Paladin]

Originally posted by ES13Raven
Well.... I tested my best Open time right before I installed it, and it was 14ms. That is pretty damn low to start, but just by putting on the QEV I was able to lower it to 7ms. Micro Rock was at 85psi.

I'm sure that adding another QEV to the front port will increase speed as well, but I didn't install one on purpose. I wanted to keep the force of the bolt softer.

It should be just as fast as the Open without a QEV, as there is no mainspring force the ram has to work against right?

Well, your quick exhaust valve is on the lower volume side of the ram and the back flow through the 4-way vent is what the release valve speeds up.
A quick release on the front of the ram allows for faster venting of the opening pressure and probably would not effect the pressure or "force" on the bolt.
Maybe better to look at it a faster direction change than faster lineal movement. It isn't so much that the ram will move faster but change directions of force faster.

[Paladin]

Originally posted by nerobro
paladin: Maybe I should have mentioned larger nipples. I was assuming that was clear. Larger ID hose wouldn't work without larger fittings to go with it. So we can rest assured that the rocks have sufficant reserve volume built in ;-) Speaking of which... there's a broken brass rock coming your way...*sniffles*
What I was getting at is that larger hoses and barbs won't do any good if the ports for flow or venting through the control valve are not equally as large.

How is your Rock "broken" ?

[nerobro]

*nods* makes sence. I was running on the assumption that the biggest restriction was the hose and barbs. Is the restriction in the quickswitch the hoses and barbs? How about some of the competing 4 ways? I have the CFM ratings of the electronic valves I bought. the passages inside them seem to be larger than the holes in my 10/32 barbs..

As for the rock, I called and spoke to craig last week. I have decided I'm not goign to try to fix it myself ;-) The safety relief valve is activating way to low.

ps. I'm the guy from the IAO who picked up craigs blazer and proceeded to shortstroke it. :-) I was wearing a blue jersey with a Bunkerhard Logo on the front.

[nicad]

Originally posted by ES13Raven
... Micro Rock was at 85psi.

I'm sure that adding another QEV to the front port will increase speed as well, but I didn't install one on purpose. I wanted to keep the force of the bolt softer ...


85psi and your concerned about softness on the bolt? yeah ok... typeo?

installing another QEV on the closing side of the ram will not change the force of which the ram operates...

out!

[the electrician]

I used to run just one QEV on the mounting head port of the ram, but after further yesting, I realized that it actually increased the speed at which the ram was able to change directions and any added momentum didn't really make any difference in the force in which the bolt hit the ball. I'm able to cycle at a high rate while only creating 3 lbs(calculated) of force on the bolt. that's a ANS 5/16" bore cylinder at 40 psi. it'll get 15 bps in full auto(only used for testing mind you), no skips, no chops, no ACE, no problem.

the QEVs have made a noticeable difference.

[ES13Raven]

Originally posted by nicad
85psi and your concerned about softness on the bolt? yeah ok... typeo?

installing another QEV on the closing side of the ram will not change the force of which the ram operates...I never said I was going to keep it at that pressure.....

That was just the pressure used to get the 7ms ;)

I plan on running the Open around 15ms, and having the LPR at a much lower pressure Colin :)

[Paladin]

Originally posted by nerobro
*nods* makes sence. I was running on the assumption that the biggest restriction was the hose and barbs. Is the restriction in the quickswitch the hoses and barbs? How about some of the competing 4 ways? I have the CFM ratings of the electronic valves I bought. the passages inside them seem to be larger than the holes in my 10/32 barbs..

We make our own barbs and with a bit different specs than most that are used or available. It only takes a few thousandths of an inch to make a big difference. (rule: if you double the size of port/passage you quadruple the amount of flow)
As to "competing 4-ways": I'm not inclined to discuss the details of why they might not be able to keep up. Hose barbs are just part of the picture.
Also, some of the multi-way electronic valves that we have looked at, don't seem to provide flow equal to their rated specs when under the load of high speed operation.


Originally posted by nerobro

As for the rock, I called and spoke to craig last week. I have decided I'm not goign to try to fix it myself ;-) The safety relief valve is activating way to low.

Sorry about that, I wish I could say it was the first time to happen. It will be taken care of and turned around here in a day or so.

Originally posted by nerobro

ps. I'm the guy from the IAO who picked up craigs blazer and proceeded to shortstroke it. :-) I was wearing a blue jersey with a Bunkerhard Logo on the front.
Oh yea,,, sure, I remember you now. :rolleyes:

[ES13Raven]

Originally posted by nicad
installing another QEV on the closing side of the ram will not change the force of which the ram operates...If you installed one on the opening side, but not on the closing side....

Couldn't you turn down the LPR to get the same force on the cocking stroke, but now less force on the loading stroke?

Doesn't the cocking stroke now have less friction and resistance, but the loading stroke still have the friction and resistance due to the "cushion" of air behind the Ram piston that can't be expelled as fast?

I know you guys are saying that it just changes direction faster, but isn't the bolt force effected if you can lower the LPR to get the same speed?

It seems to me that doing it this way would be easier on paint....

[nerobro]

Originally posted by Paladin
We make our own barbs and with a bit different specs than most that are used or available. It only takes a few thousandths of an inch to make a big difference. (rule: if you double the size of port/passage you quadruple the amount of flow)
This begs the question, is most hoses ID larger than your barbs? Has anyone done any testing with multiple hoses hooked up to a single 4 way. Such as with the dual ram cockers? It would be interesting to see if that has any benifit, especially with dump valves.


As to "competing 4-ways": I'm not inclined to discuss ...
Also, some of the multi-way electronic valves that we have looked at, don't seem to provide flow equal to their rated specs when under the load of high speed operation. So is that why you like the centerflag solution in comparison to the racegun, f5, or eclipse solutions?

*grumbles something about people knowing the data and not being able to share it* Fear of litigation is the greatest anoyance in my life, as it seems to be the largest block of data in the industry.

As for the reg, I picked it up used, and it could well be nearly a decade old now. It's served me well, along with my stab.


Oh yea,,, sure, I remember you now. :rolleyes: See I was expecting the "Oh my god not that *long string of explatives* stupid kid who can't shoot a blazer. ;-) The guys I was with said you seriously cringed when I did that.

[Paladin]

Originally posted by nerobro

This begs the question, is most hoses ID larger than your barbs?
Yes, that is probably true to some degree, especially when the hose is under pressure.


Originally posted by nerobro

Has anyone done any testing with multiple hoses hooked up to a single 4 way. Such as with the dual ram cockers? It would be interesting to see if that has any benifit, especially with dump valves.

From what I've seen, dual rams cannot be of any benifit to the cycling speed. Higher flow potential of extra hoses could make a single ram faster if applied properly. That is IF the 4-way provided enough flow to accomodate that setup.


Originally posted by nerobro

So is that why you like the centerflag solution in comparison to the racegun, f5, or eclipse solutions?

For the Blazer, yes indeed.


Originally posted by nerobro

*grumbles something about people knowing the data and not being able to share it* Fear of litigation is the greatest anoyance in my life, as it seems to be the largest block of data in the industry.

"Fear of litigation" has nothing to do with my refusal to discuss the details of others' designs in comparison to my own. On the other hand, why should I continue to show my competitors how to improve on their products, only to have them attempt to torpedo my stuff in the marketplace?


Originally posted by nerobro

See I was expecting the "Oh my god not that *long string of explatives* stupid kid who can't shoot a blazer. ;-) The guys I was with said you seriously cringed when I did that.
Sorry that I didn't fulfill your expectations. :D
You certainly aren't the only one to "short stroke" a gun that they aren't used to.
My typical comment to something like that is usually something along the lines of; "It is not electronic, so please shoot the gun in your hand instead of the one in your bag" and "first worry about right before getting too concerned about rapid." If I "cringe" it is out of simple frustration. If you try hard enough, you can screw up just about anything.

[nerobro]

Originally posted by Paladin
From what I've seen, dual rams cannot be of any benifit to the cycling speed. Higher flow potential of extra hoses could make a single ram faster if applied properly. That is IF the 4-way provided enough flow to accomodate that setup.

I must be phrasing things terriably :-) Maybe you're just used to people with a poor understanding of things coming to you. I do the same thing when i talk to people about computers. I assume no understanding untill proven otherwise.

What I was thinking was to take a quickram and quickswitch and tap additional holes on them to attempt to get the ram to move quicker. Not to use two rams. That would defeat the purpose by requireing more volume ;-) Could the quickswitch handle it?


"Fear of litigation" has nothing to do with my refusal to discuss the details of others' designs in comparison to my own. On the other hand, why should I continue to show my competitors how to improve on their products, only to have them attempt to torpedo my stuff in the marketplace?

Point taken. I've never thought of it that way before. Though my rant was more of a general one. There's a company or two who has tested the equipment but won't show the results.


Sorry that I didn't fulfill your expectations. :D
You certainly aren't the only one to "short stroke" a gun that they aren't used to.
My typical comment to something like that is usually something along the lines of; "It is not electronic, so please shoot the gun in your hand instead of the one in your bag" ... If I "cringe" it is out of simple frustration. If you try hard enough, you can screw up just about anything.
I came up saying I loved blazers ;-) Heck I still do.. I just can't shoot a 2 finger trigger blazer, or mag, or hinge cocker for the life of me. Something about swinging 2 finger triggers just doesn't work for me. I didn't even own an electrogun untill after I had embarassed myself trying to shoot that blazer.

At least when I put my finger on just the top spot on the trigger I was able to do it right!

[Paladin]

Originally posted by nerobro

I must be phrasing things terriably :-) Maybe you're just used to people with a poor understanding of things coming to you. I do the same thing when i talk to people about computers. I assume no understanding untill proven otherwise.

Actually, I understood exactly what you were asking, but you did mention the dual ram thing so I tried to cover everything you mentioned, just in case someone reading this did not see the whole picture. I'm pretty used to people with very broad range of "understanding things" and I just try to cover all the bases that I can.


Originally posted by nerobro

What I was thinking was to take a quickram and quickswitch and tap additional holes on them to attempt to get the ram to move quicker. Could the quickswitch handle it?


As I stated, "Higher flow potential of extra hoses could make a single ram faster if applied properly." What you describe would be one way to get it done and yes, the QuikSwitch could handle it. On the switch, the hoses should be 180* apart to gain the best advantage from that type of setup.


Originally posted by nerobro

Point taken. I've never thought of it that way before. Though my rant was more of a general one. There's a company or two who has tested the equipment but won't show the results.


I guess that it would be very interseting to know just what the motivation is to not "show the results". Care to speculate on that ?


Originally posted by nerobro

I came up saying I loved blazers ;-) Heck I still do.. I just can't shoot a 2 finger trigger blazer, or mag, or hinge cocker for the life of me. Something about swinging 2 finger triggers just doesn't work for me. I didn't even own an electrogun untill after I had embarassed myself trying to shoot that blazer.
At least when I put my finger on just the top spot on the trigger I was able to do it right!

It is still just a matter of what you are used to. Everyone has to get used to new equipment in order to be most effective with it. On the other hand, I can't shoot one very fast (in comparison to some)but my game finger works much better than my test finger does. The minute that I start thinking about the trigger, I'll stumble over the it every time. (Especially a 2-finger or sliding trigger setup):)

[trxtr]

i believe the very nature of the cocker and all other pneumatically operated sear, hammer type markers prevents them from ever achieving a comparable ROF to the mag. think of the number of horizontally placed "pistons" that must cycle in order for the gun to operate. i count five; trigger (it's reaching, i know) the 4 way, the ram, the sear/hammer assembaly, upper bolt. and all move at a different time and being dependant upon the full completion of the other. thus, inherently putting a cap on it's potential maximum ROF. simpler is better.

thanx
trxtr

[the electrician]

yes it is easier to get an automag to shoot fast...if the trigger wasn't so stiff I could shoot one fast. my friends both use automags that I set-up for them. they both shoot much fster than me. I had to modify mine (ram actuated sear)to make it easier for me to shoot fast. but the potential for high rof is there, right out of the box, with the automag.

but that's not what this is about. this is about pushing the cocker to the limits. one thing the separates the two guns is bolt speed. mags have high bolt speed. less time wasted going back and forth. the opening and closing of the bolt is where the most time is wasted on all guns, cockers especially. since the next ball cannot start falling into the breech until the bolt opens most of the way, and the gun cannot fire again until the bolt is completely closed again, this must be speeded up (without adding alot of bolt force) to gain rof.

I beleive that smaller bore rams are more efficient and more responsive. using QEVs on the ram are an easy way to gain speed without gaining force. I've lightened the cocking mass(pump arm, bolt, back block, and bolt pin) to 2 ounces, which also seems to help the response time

[ES13Raven]

Originally posted by Paladin
No, we haven't yet tried that particular model. The important thing to note here is that such release valves don't really help the ram as much as compensating for limited flow through the vent in the control valve.Glenn...

I see you are now selling QEVs on your site now.

Have you benn getting good results with them?

[Duganator]

After months and months of calculations and testing according to my calculations the answer is app. 60000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000. 1

[Paladin]

Originally posted by the electrician


I beleive that smaller bore rams are more efficient and more responsive. using QEVs on the ram are an easy way to gain speed without gaining force. I've lightened the cocking mass(pump arm, bolt, back block, and bolt pin) to 2 ounces, which also seems to help the response time
I believe the smaller bore rams (like the ANS 1/4" bore unit) when compared to the typical 3/8" or 10mm bore rams are not really more "efficient" and you would be hard pressed to measure any difference in response time. However the smaller bore requires higher pressures that will get through the smallest air passage in the line quicker and fill the volume of the cylinder a bit faster. This in consideration of all else on the gun being the same and the force needed to cock the gun remaining constant.
Since the smaller bore provides slightly less than half the surface area at the plunger face for the air to push on, it then requires a bit more than twice the operating pressure to do the same job. It's all a matter of generating energy and there are other drawbacks to using higher pressures in the pneumation system. Mainly, everything just has to work harder so it will die quicker. i.e. Typical 4-way valves remain much smoother and will suffer far less 0ring problems at lower pressures.

[Paladin]

Originally posted by ES13Raven
Glenn...

I see you are now selling QEVs on your site now.

Have you benn getting good results with them?

Yes indeed. The QEVs do provide a measurable improvement to cycle speeds in several aplications.
In some setups, I can't see/measure any particular improvement but there seems to be no drawbacks to having them so we ordered a bunch more. Hopefully, with quantity breaks on the price, we'll be able to lower our selling price on them as well.

[kcpaintballer]

just to let you guys know i have clippard nickle quick exaust valves in. if you would like them they are $10 a piece, and we have black and chrome rams with qevs already installed, they are $50. if you would like to purchase them please email me at travis@demonguns.com
--travis--
phone 816-694-2746

[the electrician]

well, Paladin (cool name, like the band)
my statement about smaller bore rams is due to the testing and calculations I've done comparing 5/16 bore rams with 3/8 bore rams. when air density is taken into consideration, I noticed that the smaller 5/16 bore ram needed 43 percent more psi to create the same amount of force as the 3/8 bore, and it actually used a little less air to do the same job. I know it's not much but it got me thinking about air consumption at high rates of fire.

the response difference was only 2 msec. so it's tiny but I'll take what I can get.

running a little smaller ram at a little higher psi is not going to make too much of a difference on a solenoid valve as far as wear, but your right , I wouldn't recommend it for mechanical operation.

[pbjosh]

electrician,

on the "I know it's not much but it got me thinking about air consumption at high rates of fire." statement it would be a per shot air usage. I know, nitpicking.

Area per ram-

1/4 you have an area of 0.0491
5/16 you have an area of 0.0767
3/8 you have an area of 0.1104

or, per 10 psi + two cycles =

1/4 you use about .9 inch*lbs
5/16 you use about 1.5 inch*lbs
3/8 you have an area of 2.2 inch*lbs

if you have a sledge at 100 psi then you would use twice as much air per shot if you used a 3/8" instead of a 1/4". And 22in*lbs is almost 10% of a shot on most guns. That is a good chunk.

Also, if your using a Solenoid valve (ie, racegun) then a higher pressure will increase the switching time a small amount, but it would be rather small.

Josh

[the electrician]

well I've come up with some numbers but they're not that large.

for the 5/16 bore ram at 40 psi I came up with .57 cu in at atmospheric for one total cycle.

your numbers seem kinda large, or I'm not reading it right.

I've just noticed that it is actually slightly more efficient to use a smaller bore ram to do the job. and if you make your gun more efficient in it's use of energy, it is more capable of high rof.
I've turned the lpr up in firing tests, looking for more speed to get higher rof, and it caused drop off. this tells me that efficiency is important these days for guns with high rof. I used to think, hey were building hot rods, not fuel economy guns. but in reality, the best hotrods, due get good gas mileage.

[MDethCKR]

the e-blade orr-acle can do 14 easily (according to Rocky Knuth on Naughty Dogs)
He supposedly shoots 14 strait all game?

[Smoking Nun]

For ram information, including all kinds of dimensions, force calculations, etc. go to the Clippard web site.

It it very cool and exact for Clippard Products.

Nun

[frntplayer]

race gun and eblade and f5

over 20bps just need a halo

[NukeGoose]

http://4freeflow.com/media/RGP_512x409[1].avi

[Spencer]

mech cockers can shoot as fast as you can pull same as a e-bladed cocker,only thing limiting it is the markers abity to go that fast they CAN cycle faster than 30 bps much. its just due to the long and heavy pull it takes much longer. E-blade's sear solinoid can cycle faster than 300cps

[ScatterPlot]

Teehee... threads in Deep Blue can get kinda old. Check the dates, and welcome to AO.

[Rokudon]

sorry, not really contirbuting, but wow, july 17, 2003. nice thread resurecton...?

[phantomhitman]

i read the first 5 pages of the thread and then passed out. did anyone ever agree what the autococker topped out at? i thought for sure that people had eblades and eblade2's over 15 bps shooting, not just cycling.
i have to get in front of a chrono that does bps and see how fast i can get mine up to, not like that matters though.

[PBX Ronin 23]

Max CPS is still to be determined. Obviously there are many variables involved here. But Max BPS seems to be 36bps and that's largely due to the current roster of available loaders.

[phantomhitman]

thanks for answering that. how fast have you seen an eblade go?

[PBX Ronin 23]

With paint......35bps at 04 IAO. But the freaking thing shook like an epileptic.... ;)

[UTDragun]

With paint......35bps at 04 IAO. But the freaking thing shook like an epileptic.... ;)
what kinda loader? qloader or modded halo?

[ColdFuzion]

Fastest I've done is (And not with my fingets-I love how bouncy an E2 can be) is 19 full shots with paint per second, HALO with Victory Board and Empire Reloader B were used. In Practice mode (Where it only oves the back block), I could get bounce as high as 25 CPS. This was on Factory Fast... I'll tinker with the settings next weekend (Not my gat, I would do it now) and see how fast it'll do.... I know we've all seen the 54 CPS Karni, but those were only cycles, probably had low dwell.

-Cold

[sleepingbeauty]

I have hit 16bps on my freeflow with a slider.

But my finger = godly and noone can surpass me :)

[Pyroboy597]

i can hit 14 on my friends 03 vert if a shake my arm like im having a seizure (not really sure where the paintballs go, but all i can say is that half of them are going over the fence :/)

[Dayspring]

Qloader.


what kinda loader? qloader or modded halo?

[VFX_Fenix]

I saw a video of a Karnivor dry firing at 51cps... That's pretty fast for a Cocker, right? lol

Good 'ol Glenn wasn't too far off with his guess of 40-45 cps. (post #95)

[UTDragun]

I just read the first page of this thread again and I found it very entertaining to se who was right, who was wrong and how far paintball has advanced in the past years