Air Leaking Refresher

[Aslan]

Okay, I used to know this...but I've been away from the game for a couple years.

When I fired off some rounds through my Minimag (Retro Valve, Level X), I heard a slight leak coming through the barrel.

I seem to remember:
1) You need to pull and hold the trigger to see if the leak stops or not and that would indicate something.
2) It's probably a level X tuning issue that can be stopped by either using the next higher or lower "inserts".

Can anybody give me a quick synopsis to refresh my memory again? Thanks.

[badpennny]

1) Holding the trigger down and listening for leaks is to determine whether or not it is a problem in the on/off or the powertube. If the leak stops when the trigger is held down, the on/off is not the issue.

2) Since you have the level X bolt, try replacing the carrier o-ring or going to the next smaller-sized carrier that does not leak.

The troubleshooting video is on Youtube and shows TK demonstrating the above principles.

[Jacobd]

^What he said, if you hold down the trigger and it still leaks you have a leak in your on-off top, and yeah try a new carrier (insert) oring or going down a carrier size.

[Aslan]

I'm out of air right now for testing, but when I get some filled up I'll do a little "figiting" with it to see if it's an on/off issue or a carrier issue. If it's the carrier (probably), I'll go to the next smaller (less grooves) carrier.

Now, this marker has set since summer 2007. I've put about 200-250 shots through it over the weekend testing the warp and such...could it be that I need to do some more firing to get everything seated properly?

[athomas]

When testing your level 10, remove all shims from it first. That way you eliminate them as a possible source of leaks. They don't affect level 10 operation. When testing the level 10, always use the largest carrier that doesn't leak. Use the same white carrier oring when changing carrier sizes. The carriers adjust tension on the oring, so it is important that you are always using the same one.

[tmoneyblingbling]

^What he said, if you hold down the trigger and it still leaks you have a leak in your on-off top, and yeah try a new carrier (insert) oring or going down a carrier size.

I'm having this probem when I hold down the trigger, it leaks in spurts, like r/t spurting, the bolt moves forward a tiny bit then retracts. I've tried replacing the entire on/off assembly with same result. I think it might be a problem with adjusting the trigger rod length going from benchmark double trigger and frame to AGD oem single trigger frame.

[Ando]

Change your little white teflon oring in your on/off. Should have a gap about the thickness of a credit card between your trigger to your sear arm.

[211]

Oil
especially if its been sitting for a while

[athomas]

If it spurts air when you hold the trigger, then the leak is definately one of the two orings above the on-off top.

There is a slight chance that it is the small urethane oring behind the regulator seat holder in the regulator section of the valve.

[tmoneyblingbling]

Change your little white teflon oring in your on/off.

W00t! I win special person of the day award for overlooking this. Being it would be the fastest and easiest first step of troubleshooting..With my glasses 'on' I could see a small nick on the inside of the very top little white o-ring. Replaced it, added some oil and viola! Instant O.G. gratification. Thanks all.

[Ando]

Tom covers every little problem in his video, even the one you were having. It would behoove you to see them a few times.
http://automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=248134

[tmoneyblingbling]

Tom covers every little problem in his video, even the one you were having. It would behoove you to see them a few times.
http://automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=248134
Agreed. Watched them many time over. Although I've been into classic mags now for years, this was a matter of physical handicap. Getting old sucks.

[Aslan]

What if you're using the smallest carrier and you still have a slight leak? Smallest carrier, 2 shims, oiled the heck out of it....

On the plus side, the Minimag is firing great. :shooting: I'm probably getting 8bps without even trying.

On the minus side, I'd like to get this leak nailed down. And I'm a little worried that now that I've moved my warp to the back (Luke's rear mount bracket) that the balls are going to get hung up in the slightly longer hose. For some reason, the warp works great with the original, old style hose...but I've had problems with the balls getting stuck in the slightly longer new style hose.

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/6782/minimagb.th.jpg (http://img687.imageshack.us/i/minimagb.jpg/)

[secretweaponevan]

What if you're using the smallest carrier and you still have a slight leak? Smallest carrier, 2 shims, oiled the heck out of it....

On the plus side, the Minimag is firing great. :shooting: I'm probably getting 8bps without even trying.

On the minus side, I'd like to get this leak nailed down. And I'm a little worried that now that I've moved my warp to the back (Luke's rear mount bracket) that the balls are going to get hung up in the slightly longer hose. For some reason, the warp works great with the original, old style hose...but I've had problems with the balls getting stuck in the slightly longer new style hose.

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/6782/minimagb.th.jpg (http://img687.imageshack.us/i/minimagb.jpg/)

Do what athomas told you. Always do what he tells you.
Remove all shims.
You only need them if your bolt fails to reset after a jam.
If you still have a leak after removing the shims and you are still using the smallest carrier, your leak is in your carrier o-ring. It is time to break in a new one.

[athomas]

What secretweaponevan says is true, especially this part :D
Do what athomas told you. Always do what he tells you.
Remove all shims.

When you are tuning your level 10, always remove the shims. Sometimes they can cause the carrier oirng to be too close to the vent hole. The result is usually a leak that you can't get rid of. You end up using a carrier that is too tight and it causes other bolt stick issues.

If removing the shims don't fix the leak and you have gone to the smallest carrier, then you need to install a new white carrier oring and retune. There is probably a piece of dirt or a defect in the oring that is causing the leak. It doesn't take much because the level 10 oring is so lightly fitted to the bolt stem that it requires a perfect seal. Any imperfection that wouldn't be a problem in any other oring will be a problem here.

[Aslan]

I'll take out the shims and give it another try tomorrow. Hopefully that fixes it because I have enough air left for one more test fire.

If that doesn't fix it, guess it's grab a fresh o-ring and start with the highest carrier and work my way down?... :rolleyes: So close yet so far away!

I'll let ya know how it goes! :clap:

[Aslan]

Well, I couldn't wait till tomorrow so I had to do a late night test out in the garage. I took out one of the 2 shims (figured I'd progress gradually) and oiled the heck out of it again. No leak. :dance:

Granted, it was a short test...but could it be that having that extra shim in there was the difference? I'm scheduled to play again on April 3rd so I plan on giving it a good test run then. It'll be mega awesome if it works for me.

Now I just gotta cross my fingers about the warp hose issue...

Thanks for the help guys!!! :hail:

[athomas]

Well, I couldn't wait till tomorrow so I had to do a late night test out in the garage. I took out one of the 2 shims (figured I'd progress gradually) and oiled the heck out of it again. No leak. :dance:

Granted, it was a short test...but could it be that having that extra shim in there was the difference? The shim could definately have been the culprit as explained earlier, especially as the sear wears and allows the bolt to sit farther forward than it would have previously in its life. Glad to hear you have it running leak free. :)

[Aslan]

Well, took it to the field Saturday and it worked great. I went through alot of air. About 1000-1500psi per game (100-300 shots), but I didn't hear a leak and she fired great. And the warpfeed worked fine as well. I played like garbage, but the gun worked fine. :p

but...
Then I get home, give it a good cleaning (in one game I got shot up pretty good and the Mag took 3 direct shots making a mess of things)...and when I air it up and test fire it (with what little air I had left), it's leaking again!! :cuss: Cleaned, oiled...fired fine at the field...but now it's back to leaking (except when the trigger is pulled and held)! Ughhh!!

I aired it up, hear a leak, and when I fired it, it would "double fire"...kind've like a blowback when you're low on CO2. Then it just leaked the rest of the air out. So I switched tanks. Aired it up, could hear the leak, it fired okay (no "double fire")...but the leak was still there. It seemed to sort of go away as I fired 10-30 times. That made me think "maybe" I just needed to work the oil through the valve. But by the time I started feeling good about it, I was out of air. :mad:

I'm out of air (completely) so until I can get to the store and fill up I gotta set it aside. I guess I can take the level 10 carrier out again, check it for dirt, oil it...try again. If that doesn't work, take the last shim out and try it again. After that...I guess I'm gonna need to order some new carrier o-rings and go back to the drawing board... :(

Just to be clear though...since when I hold the trigger in and the leak stops...I don't need to focus my attention at all at the on/off right? Thanks. :cheers:

[athomas]

Just to be clear though...since when I hold the trigger in and the leak stops...I don't need to focus my attention at all at the on/off right? Thanks. :cheers:Correct. focus on the powertube area.

Take all the shims out. That is one of the possible causes of leaking. If it still leaks after the shims are removed, go to the next smaller carrier size.

[Aslan]

I got all my tanks filled up today and ran another test. Leaked at first, but as I fired 20-30 shots through it...sort of stopped. I fired 10 more through it and no leak.

I'll have to keep an eye on it the next time out. If it looks like I'm having that "recurring" leak, I'll take the last shim out and see if that does it. At this point, I think I just needed to work the oil through it a little. :confused:

[athomas]

Oil doesn't seal. It just makes things move better. If oil is needed to make it seal better, then the problem will keep cropping up when the oring dries, which is soon after the majority of the oil gets blown off it.

[Aslan]

Fired it at the field today and every once in awhile I could hear the leaking problem reoccur. It was difficult because it was so dang windy out.

But...I got it home and cleaned/oiled it and realized something. There was no bolt bumper! I have one in my tool chest so I put it in.

My question now is, will adding the bumper effect the leak? Could that have contributed to the leak? Now that the bumper is in, do you think I'll need that shim back in that I took out?

I'm gonna test fire it in the garage tomorrow morning and see how it does. Hopefully adding the bumper doesn't send me back to square one or make the leak worse. :confused:

My next steps seem to be:
1) Test fire it, hopefully no leak.
2) If leak, take final shim out and test again.
3) If still hearing leak, may need to replace powertube o-ring and re-tune Level 10.

Correct? The bumper shouldn't affect anything "leakwise", right? Thanks!

[athomas]

The bumper shouldn't affect the leak because the bolt doesn't actually touch the bumper when aired up.

You should take all the shims out anyway. If your setup is so close that one shim makes a difference as to whether it leaks or not, then it could intermittently leak during play just because things move around during each cycle and may not sit in exactly the same position each time.

[Aslan]

I aired it up...

no leak....fired some shots...leak....fired some shots....no leak...fired some shots...etc...

I took out the final shim, no difference.

So...looks like a new level 10 o-ring is in my future as well as re-tuning the Level 10.

Since it's intermittant, I may try it out once more at the field...but I doubt it's a "breaking in" type of issue....I think I just need a new o-ring and to start the process of tuning.

[athomas]

Yes, if removing the last shim didn't change anything, then you probably need a new oring. Check the oring for a piece of dirt. There may be a piece embedded on its inner sealing surface.

[Aslan]

Well, I got a 4-pack of new o-rings from AGD. Tuned the Level 10 this afternoon. It took a little bit longer than expected because even with the new o-ring I still had to go down to the second smallest carrier; but overall I thought the process went smoothly.

Doesn't appear to have any leaks now. Once it gets broken in, I may be back down to the smallest carrier again...which seems odd to me...could the Level 10 bolt stem be worn or something? Doesn't seem logical that it would wear. I replaced the powertube tip o-ring as well while I was in there...maybe that helped.

Here is the most recent picture of the finished product:
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/9335/minimag3b.jpg
I need to get a longer macroline put on it and I'm going to try and go with an adjustable input (925psi?) once I get that tank hydroed. Hopefully the increased input pressure won't knock me backwards concerning leaking issues.