the crash and burn of paintball.

[mr.mag218]

i've been playing since i was 11 years old, starting out with a brass eagle stingray and a few friends in the woods. I've loved the sport since day 1 and started playing again after about a year of moving and getting situated. well guys this is the first time i've had the chance to reflect on what i remember, and what i'm observing.

i finally got settled in at my new base, started buying some paintball stuff and found a local field to play at. my first time back i went out with a friend who used to play tournament speedball and we played with a few scenario guys who had tiberus guns and a5's wearing the riot gear and what not, i had a blast. after about an hour or so a small group of 10-12 notably younger kids showed up with rentals, from what i could tell it was a small family and their friends. i don't have any of my gear yet so i just rented a tippman, baught half a case and went out for the day, a few of the scenario guys had electro grip frames maybe shooting 13bps with autoresponse.

about mid day we asked the group if they wanted to play with us, our group vs. their group and they excepted. it was probably 6 on 10 and we absolutely destroyed them, the tourney baller on my team bunkered about 4 kids, the guy with autoresponse slinging paint the whole time, and after-wards these guys on my team start hootin and hollering about the victory. now for me i've always enjoyed going out and playing anyone, on any field never much of a sore winner.

we played them again and destroyed them, and i can hear the kids on the other team already not wanting to play with us again. after the second game they peeled off and went to the other field to go back to a private session.

this is what the sport has become? i used to get paired with the best guy on a field and he would mentor me on how to get better, never once rubbing the opponents noses in the dirt for losing. these guys weren't even playing with high tech 30bps tourney guns. no wonder the sport is losing momentum, kids these days are intimidated out of their skulls. what happened to taking a couple lads under your wing and showing them a few tricks or even losing to them just to get morale up?

i know for a fact when i was younger (11 or 12) i was shooting a bob long millennium, in full motocross gear because i was afraid to get shot and a much more experienced player came running at me gun drawn and blatantly let me get him out. not knowing at the time i bragged to everyone about how i got him out.

i have my guns all setup for tourney play, and im debating getting a pump just to go out and have fun with the rec ballers. what happend to a day of fun without stomping new players out of ever coming back because your acting like you just won the world cup every time you bunker a bunch of kids, who are already scared in the first place without you shooting the **** out of them? not to mention the one kid there with a mini (only fast electro i had seen all day) shot me in the mask, and as i turned to walk off the field (with marker raised high above my head) this kid unloads 7 more into my chest and back.

it was almost enough to make me not want to go back. now im looking at volunteering as a ref at the field on weekends to help out newer players and keep the attitudes in check. paintball needs a vast change in attitude, and huge drop in gun technology before it ever starts to grow again.

[ProblemKinder]

yup.

[chafnerjr]

now im looking at volunteering as a ref at the field on weekends to help out newer players and keep the attitudes in check. paintball needs a vast change in attitude, and huge drop in gun technology before it ever starts to grow again.

Now this is more like it! Paintball needs more people with YOUR kind of attitude and reffing. People have been D-Bag's since the beginning of time... it's good players, good ref's and good fields to fix this issue. It's just fine up in my area, but there's still @-#ole$ around that need to be... "balanced".

I hope you can even it out some :cheers:

[Konigballer]

I like how it wasn't the often maligned speedballers that were the villians in your story, it was milsim woodsballers. Just goes to show that anyone in this game can be a d-bag, no matter what he shoots or how he plays. It's a general attitude thats widespread, but Ithink alot of it has to do with the 'culture' of each particular field. At the field I usually play at, they don't tolerate that kind of thing, they would have broken up the experienced players to begin with.

I think there was still the general respect for players carried over from the 80's when I started playing in the mid 90's. More of a 'gentleman baller' code if you will. Paintball was bigger, but still not mainstream really, and the cost to play was considerable. The average age of players was gernerally higher as well. If you bought the gear you were entering a hobby that still not that many people knew much about or understood, so I think there was less of a tendency to view other people on the field as fodder. The still dominant mech semi and pump guns only helped re-enforce this. I remember older players helping me out alot.

The abundance of cheap mechs and electro's, hand in hand with the lower player age and increased marker performance available, changed everything in the last decade.

[XM15]

I think part of the problem is the speedball format. Don't get me wrong I play it but it is not my favorite paintball format. Its especially not a great format for new players. It's to easy for them to get lit up at close range. I rememeber one time last spring my buddy and I went to play in the open game at our local field and there was a group of about 6 kids around 12 or 13 playing. The first few games we were inside because it was raining. My buddy and I played with the kids. This one kid after a couple of games was so scared he wouldn't move out of the corner where we started. He quit playing all together later on. I only take first time players out when I'm playing in the woods. The field is way bigger, they don't get lit up at close range as easily and they get to play longer than 15 sec.

[Enemy]

i used to work and ref a field one of my favorite games was when we had all the field refs vs a bunch of new, and older guys 21 on 7 we won but it came down to the last 2.

Past that though if im playing against newer players and kids ill strictly focus on one skill i want to improve maybe left hand only or snap shots only or laning for an in-experienced guy in front of me so he can move up, really the only way to avoid situations like these is either to split the teams up or if you see it happening hop on the other team and gun down the d-bags and let the kids have at it.

[VELOCEMAG]

Couldn't agree more. We used to have 5 fields within a :30 drive (Charlottesville,Va). All of them are gone, 1 lost the lease and the other 4 had nothing but a bunch of tournament players shooting up the rec players. The rec player now play on their own land. I have nowhere to play so I took up golf of all things.

[skipdogg]

95% of the time I play with a pump. I would say that a good part of the reason I play with one, is so I cannot become a d-bag that overshoots people. I'm going to hit someone with 2-3 balls max when I get an elimination. I like to think noobs appreciate that.

[om3n]

95% of the time I play with a pump. I would say that a good part of the reason I play with one, is so I cannot become a d-bag that overshoots people. I'm going to hit someone with 2-3 balls max when I get an elimination. I like to think noobs appreciate that.

I nubbed some people the other day...

I played re-ball for the first time on an indoor air-ball field last weekend and I had a BLAST. There were 3 private parties there, and each party had to take it's turn in order to play. Each party played individually.

The party I was playing with had about 20 people and only 2 experienced players- me and my bro. My cousin was the only person we knew there, and I'm pretty sure the only reason he invited us was because he knew that we love paintball and he wanted us to help him survive lol. Well initially I didn't know we were the only experienced guys, so on the first game my bro and I (who were on the same team the first game) decided to take the snake which was on our left.

When the whistle started, my bro and I were the only ones who started shooting- everyone else just ran to a bunker. I got 3 people out on the break. I dove for the snake, crawled up it all the way to the other end, and shot out 4 other people from behind. My brother took out the remaining 3 from the first part of the snake. The game lasted about 1.5 minutes and I took maybe 100 shots with the e-mag.

After that, my bro and i were split up. I didn't know we were the only guys who had played before, and then I felt kind of bad. I then helped direct guys on my team, and encouraged them when they got eliminations or when they helped me push up. I would say it was definitely as much fun to help these new guys out as it was to just rip through everyone :)

[Lohman446]

I can sum it up like this:

We went from a "lets go play and everyone have fun" game to a "win at all costs" sport.

Yes its oversimplified. But if I had to go back to $100 a case rigged together pump markers to have my game back I would give up everything else in a heart beat. And yes, 90% of the so called "athletes" participating in the sport need to try out for a team in any other sport and understand what most athletes actually go through.

/No, not at all bitter
//Punk little agglets

[dre1919]

This topic has been hashed, rehashed and re-rehashed here many times before with little to nothing new to add to the proceedings. Paintball is a win at all costs sport played mostly by well off elitists and complete noobs, to be very broad. The problems are plentiful, which is why paintball is mostly viewed as a game or hobby and not a sport, per se. Paintball as a whole should do a better job of shepherding the next crop of players in to keep it alive instead of letting the minority light them up and gloat. We need slower guns, better formats, better skill level division, etc. None of which is likely to happen.

[Smoothice]

Besides mentoring the newbies when ever possible you should also put the d-bag in his place. Preferably with a pump or pistol. It will sting that much more.

d4m4don3, shrub, and myself went out a while back with a group of junior high kids from my church. It was most of their first times. There was this one kid who has always been cocky. He had played a few times and thought he was all that and a bag of chips. So he starts talking some smack on me. Mostly playful. But that is just how he is.

So the first game we are on opposite teams. I move all the way around his side until I am behind him. Then I put a few shots into his bunker. He starts looking around like WTF!?! Then I just run up and get into his bunker with him. Put my hand on his shoulder and say "hey how's it going?" With any luck he won't grow up to be a d-bag.

The rest of the day we just jumped into bunkers with the kids and tried to teach them the basics. Told them to move up when possible. d4m4don3 let these 2 girls eliminate him. It was the highlight of their day.

[kcombs9]

d4m4don3 let these 2 girls eliminate him. It was the highlight of their day.

/agree

One day of play we had a group of 3-4 girls and 5 guys play, all the girls on one team guys on the other. I was with the guys. I saw it was me and 2 guys vs 3 girls. I stopped shooting and went to the other side of the field and gave the girls tips and had them bunker one guy and shot the other while he was on the run. never saw them come back but I hope they do some day cause they enjoyed it.

[DevilMan]

Yup, when I play at BC depending on who goes, it's usually ZMan, and a few other folks we know if we are split up we try and make it a rule that we won't shoot the newbs. :D So say there are 3 on 3 of experienced players and the rest newbs on each side, we won't shoot them or try to gain ground on them. We'll find out where the other experienced players are and go after there. It is funny to move up a side and leave a newb to your side/back of ya knowing that if they were paying attention you'd be hosed!!!! :D

Do what you can for the field. The way I think of it is that I pay to have fun. On a rec day there is no monetary win, no trophy and no real bragging rights. So why bother? Play and have fun. I do have to say I chuckle at the same time that I feel bad when I try to bring a newb up with me, or get one to move to a bunker up one that he gets shot out of... :D Unlike Zman I don't intentionally do it!!! :D

DM

[SCpoloRicker]

Play with you friends, set a good example.

/thread

[CatoRockwell]

I know what you guys mean. When I first got into paintball 13 years ago, I had a Sheridan pump I borrowed from a friend. There was a player there who probably had the nicest equipment and a totally custom autococker. He saw that I had no idea what I was doing so he came and rolled with me for a while showing me the ropes. All the more experienced players were so chill and helpful, always trying to make sure teams were even that I had the time of my life. That day was the reason I decided to spend all my paper route money that I had saved for a nintendo 64 on a paintball gun instead.

Flash forward 13 years and even the woodsball/scenario players which had been the last refuge for laid back paintball. Now there are a bunch of competitive DBags who aren't really competitors or they'd want even teams, no a better word is egomaniac. They pound on a bunch of noobs to make themselves feel big. I always make sure I join up with the new guys so they have some experienced help, but there are so many @$$holes that they still drive away new players by the droves.

The only hope paintball has is for the rest of us who truly love the sport to go the extra mile to make new players feel welcome and to reinstill chivalry in the sport. We need to make this videogame agglets realize that their attitude is not welcome and either make them change their ways or drive them back to their mothers basements.

You know what we out to do? We should form a chivalric order of paintball. Basically a network to gather players who truly love the sport this order can host events around the country for various play styles with the sole purpose of creating an enviroment that is similar to the enviroment that got many of us into this sport.

Wherever there is unbalance we'll be there to bolster the noobs ranks
wherever there is a lost noob we'll be there to show him the way

and so on. Like another said this issue has been brought up time and again, so let's do something about it!

[snoopay700]

This, this is why i am cautious about buying a faster gun. I play only rec ball and when i got my pneumag set up it was fun to lay down paint, but a lot of the challenge had gone away. That's one of the many reasons i prefer stock class now. I've also taken newer players along with me and try to do it whenever i can, and if i'm going a way that i don't think they would keep up i try to give them tips.

[chafnerjr]

This, this is why i am cautious about buying a faster gun. I play only rec ball and when i got my pneumag set up it was fun to lay down paint, but a lot of the challenge had gone away. .

I don't know... I play pneu because I like to be able to attain higher ROF if needed. Mostly because it's fun to be "that guy" that hangs out with the newbs who can fend off the 5 ballers that show up with the elctros mid-scenario and then go right back to plinking :shooting: Though I totally understand what you're saying.

P.S. I still consider 3 shots on target to be "overshooting"

[AGDRetro]

I've been in the game for 10+ years too and I don't think this is something exclusive to paintball. The fact is that there is a serious lack of mentors for young people across the board.

When I ref I like to assist younger players by encouraging them to move up and showing them how to use their opponents blind spots to their advantage (so long as the group is cool and won't whine). Most mature adult players will not throw a fit if they see you helping a young gun. The same goes for when I play, and if it means grabbing my pump to "even the odds" that's cool too. The best thing you can do for the sport is maintain a cool attitude and exceptional reputation good sportsmanship. Fields and players will look forward to seeing you come out to the field if you can accomplish those 2 easy things. I always try to compliment the opponent that knocks me out of the game with a "good shot" and thumbs up. It seems to have done wonders for me and my team. I totally stand behind your desire to see more responsible mentors on the field!

[b-cuzz]

That reminds me of one day my group and I were at the local field. The owner invited us out to play, and there were some kids and their dads already there. we start setting up (my group uses Mags almost exclusively), and one of my guys' Mag is leaking. He switched to his Spyder, and it was leaking, too. All the while he's telling the kids that they need Mags.
I told him straight up at least theirs were working. He shut up.

It does seem that recball is far overshadowed by speedball and milsim woodsball. As such, someone just getting into the sport will be intimidated by what they see on the shelves or in people's hands at the field. I try my level best to educate new players when I see them on the field, or even at Wal-mart in the paintball aisle. However, instilling "fear no gear" into a new player is nigh impossible.

[classic68]

I went with a bunch of guys from work and their kids last week. Some have never played and we went out of our way to make sure they had a good time. We really wanted them to enjoy their first time like we did years ago so we did a private party even though we did not have a lot of players and it ran the cost up. I would never take a new player to open rec. I was out of the sport for several years and just started to get back into it when my sons wanted to play. I played a few times at my local field and you guys are not kidding about Dbags. I never seen so many people seem to go out of their way to punish new players. I saw so many kids not having fun because they were getting shot up. I tried to help out but there were just too many Dbags. the size of the teams were 40 on 40 on smaller fields. 5 people backed up in a bunker. One teen tried a run by and was shot several times on the way to bunker 3 kids (my son was one). He knew he was hit but kept going. He shot the three at close range. I asked him what he was thinking (I was out watching from the side lines) and that he was out. He tried to argue but its hard to argue the big splat on the mask. The ref (who is this kids friend) saw the whole thing and was going to do nothing until some of us adults started to make a big deal of this ****. The ref told his friend to sit out the next game. These types of stories used to be rare and shared around the camp fire like scary stories but now it is a regular event every weekend at field near you.

[snoopay700]

I don't know... I play pneu because I like to be able to attain higher ROF if needed. Mostly because it's fun to be "that guy" that hangs out with the newbs who can fend off the 5 ballers that show up with the elctros mid-scenario and then go right back to plinking :shooting: Though I totally understand what you're saying.

P.S. I still consider 3 shots on target to be "overshooting"
I consider it overshooting too, and that's another thing, it was very easy to bonus ball someone and the first time i used it, if memory serves, i did on accident. But it also just made it a lot less fun, because now when i play woodsball with my phantom i rely more on remaining out of sight than firepower and it's fun to see the guys with fast guns freak out when someone shoots at them from the bushes behind them. I actually got one guy calling most of his teammates back by shooting a shot at him that bounced. So much fun....but i'm getting off topic haha, sorry.

Classic68, not every field is like that, it does suck when the refs watch out for their friends, and that should be brought to the field owner because if they care about their business they'll talk to the ref or fire him. I wouldn't stand for that kind of behavior from refs at a field i played at, and if the owner did nothing about it i would leave and try to get him as little business as possible.

[drg]

This rant is like 3 or 4 years too late.

[kumijia]

It's not only on the field, it's even in the pro shops. When i first started it hated just going to get my tanks filled. "Oh you got BE, you're using wal-mart balls.....bla bla bla," I don't understand how they got people to join there teams...I've never played on an actual field, I've always played in my own property. We all started with Tiger sharks, and we played every Friday night, it was great. I like woods ball, i like to sit and ambush, and i like to hunt. I prefer a one shot kill. All my friends i started with stop playing and now i play with my brother in laws and his friends (on average they are 12 years younger then me.) We all set up bunkers and blinds with fallen limbs, and we all learn to strategize, points of attack and weaknesses, and we learn SPORTSMANSHIP.


At my local field, there was one guy that worked there that was cool. He didn't care what you played or shot, He was just happy you were in the sport. He'd give advice on products, techniques, and markers. If you had a problem with a marker, he'd discuss it with you to see if he could fix it. He even would let you try out his personal markers, in fact he's one of the reasons i bought a mag. I purposely would go when he was on duty, everyone else at the shop were dicks.....until i got my RT. Then to them it made me a player, and in talking to them, i found out they were just talk, they didn't know anything.

[Reiner]

There were always d-bags around as there are still lots of honourable people around these days. The d-bags can just be bigger d-bags because of newer technology and cheaper paintballs. The cheaper paintballs mean that fields have very little mark-up and need/want their customers to shoot lots of paint, so many field owners turn a blind eye to situations like the one you described. The economics of the game have changed, and that has changed the game.

The best thing any of us can do that don't enjoy this kind of thing happening, is tell the field owners. If enough people start complaining to the field owners, maybe they will see the light and realize it's hurting the industry and their field.

[wimag]

over the years I have seen hardcore mil-sim GI Joe wanna be morons be more of a annoyance than tourney players. Same gear, different color is all.

Sometimes i miss the days of $120/2500 count cases.

[Lohman446]

Seperate paintball from the game and the sport. The sport is crashing, and burning (ignore the cheering). The game is still there, as elusive as ever, you just have to find it.

[saintnoir]

its not just paintball but people in general.I was judging at a local TKD tournament and noticed that in a group of kids from one dojo (wont say a name its being taken care of) were all wearing belts one rank lower.They were basically cheating to try and get more trophies for the dojo.
Theirs this weird win at all costs mentality running wild these days

[gimp]

Now this is more like it! Paintball needs more people with YOUR kind of attitude and reffing. People have been D-Bag's since the beginning of time... it's good players, good ref's and good fields to fix this issue. It's just fine up in my area, but there's still @-#ole$ around that need to be... "balanced".

I hope you can even it out some :cheers:


This is off topic, but I just had to agree with the quality of players in NH. I don't think I ever had a bad experience up at OSG. I do find that playing mostly with pump players maintains a pretty good environment.

[chafnerjr]

This is off topic, but I just had to agree with the quality of players in NH. I don't think I ever had a bad experience up at OSG. I do find that playing mostly with pump players maintains a pretty good environment.
... Thanks :cheers: I'll have to let Dave know that gimp from HI had a good time. That's a heck of a distance to travel if you didn't just move out there (service?). Dave (OSG's owner) always works with his ref's and staff to keep everyone having fun. Whether that means evening teams, private games, etc. OSG is one of the best fields around when it comes to just having fun playing paintball.

EDIT* Shameless plug.... but since I don't work for them :p :p :p

[breg]

The first time I played was about 2001. I was hooked like a prize marlin. I have not played for about 5 years now and it sounds like it changed. I guess back then it was about a shared expierence and getting as many people to play and have fun as possible. Because if they do not have fun then they will not come back and they will tell their friends and they wont come out to paly, and then eventually no one will be on the field.
I liked it back then. We were all... Paintball Geeks and that was AWESOME. It was kind of fun to explain the sport to people and just go for it you know?

[CatoRockwell]

Ahh yes, those were my highschool years, paintball geek. Truly good times. Lets make the sport like that again.

[breg]

It is like I said: if we bash the newbs and make them have a miserable time or have a good time at thier expense then they will ot want to com eback. Then they tell their friends about what an awful time they had playing and how much of a jerk all the other more expierenced players were. Then their friends who might have come out to paly won't. Then we stop getting new players and then the field stands empty...

[usagi_tetsu]

Paintball is definitely not as friendly as it was even a mere decade ago. And yes, the inexpensive technology that allows reliable high rates of fire make it a lot easier to be a d-bag in the sport. However, the only way we are going to change this around is by continuing to go out and play at our local fields, and being the players we wish others would be.

We have to be the ones to take new players under our wings and show them the ropes.

We have to be the ones who point out d-baggery and ridicule it into extinction.

We have to be the ones who make it fun for new players to come out and play, and continue to do so, hopefully bringing their friends.

We can not sit back and only gripe about how bad it is, we have to be the ones who go out there and make paintball change for the better, because if we don't, who will? No one will, that's who.


So, who's going out to play in the next month and try to change paintball for the better? I know I will be (http://automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=249688).

/soapbox

[DamianTC]

I been back in the sport for almost 2 years now after being out for 7-8 years. Its apparent that this problem is now static... not getting any worst... but not getting any better either.

[chafnerjr]

So, who's going out to play in the next month and try to change paintball for the better? e[/url].
/soapbox

That's the spirit. I'm with you!

[SSP REAPER]

Here Here :cheers:
I know I always tell people "Nice Shot" or "Nice Angle" after the game when I am hit and out. I always let people know who the D'bags are and who plays well. I personally take a lot of the new kids at the fields and let them run a flank with me. Their youth and speed makes up for what I lack in that department :D

[mr.mag218]

i went again this weekend, and gotta say its was the most fun i've ever had losing! i played with a group of younger players (10-13 i'd say) and spent the whole time explaining how communication is key, and every once in a while trying to get them to shoot off the break without shooting teamates (ME) in the butt while they're running up. i even took two of the young guys and split them up making them captains to choose their teams, we won a few and lost a bunch, but i took the time to lend a few of them my mini for a few games and watched their face light up. i even organized a few losses with me and a few other experienced players, which took more effort then i thought, however listening to the kids share story's after made my day. im liking this idea more and more every time i go out.

one story i have to share involves one of the younger players being the last on his team and as i watched on the sidelines the other team was outnumbering him 6 to 1 and he fought em off all he could but they kept advancing, and as one of the opposing members ran up i called the game and ran up to tell the kid he was out (he wasn't shot yet however i didn't want him to be lit up like the fourth of july), but apparently he had other plans because as i ran up to try and save him from getting lit up, he thought i was bunkering him. as he proceeded to shoot me i stood in front of him taking a few shots from the other team, but had to be the funniest bonus balling i've ever taken. he finally got what i was doing and walked off the field with me apologizing every step of the way. :spit_take

[Seth1784]

agree with most here, the sport has taken a hell of a turn since when i started as well (about 98). everything was a good deal more expensive to shoot, so you used to always conserve, pumps were seen a good deal more too like someone else mentioned. if you ask me there's waaaaaaaaaay too many electro guns out there with ramping and all that crap. should just go back to a semi auto do what your fingers can do tops and call it a day.

i do think player attitudes all depend on where you play honestly. we've got a couple local fields to pick from and i absolutely hate playing at one. everyone there has the "i'm better then you" attitude you mention with always needing to win. you go a ways south and it's like a totally different world. refs and everyone there will joke around and help one another out.

hell went out last saturday and i had a great time, showed up with a couple friends we hooked up with all sorts of folks out, few younger kids few adults. we'd also mix up teams so things wouldn't get one sided... if someone won two or three times in a row things got changed to balance out things. talked to one little kid out playing too, said it was his first time and he was totally stoked to play with his dad. said he hasn't got anyone but he keeps coming close, just asked him well shoot are you having a good time? he said oh yea! i said well that's all that matters then, if you're happy then it's worth playing. also helped out some team mates which you don't see much either lol. girl on my team also first time out, hit her gun on something lost some paint so i tossed her a loader to keep her in play and what not. did it for another dude that was a friend of a friend. hell with walking cause of no paint lol. even the refs get in some laughs, we had one get shot checking someone else in a "town" thing which he wasn't pleased over but he was laughing at the same time... told us all to go back in (respawn thing) i said want me to shoot some folks while i'm walking back he said sure why not lol so i lit up two guys on my walk. he just kept them in game but he got his laugh payback.

soooooo summing up i think where you play also has something to do with it. the place that has the attitude folks are generally where the speedball tourney boys hang out which generally they've got the have to win attitude cause well... they don't just play for fun.