The Age of the Mechanical Marker

[Aslan]

Just wondering about this a bit today...

When I started playing way back when, electronic markers weren't available. As they started coming available, they were slow to make their way to the woodsball fields.

But, as E-triggers for A-5s started showing up...and the electronic markers started getting more rugged and sophisticated...I saw more and more starting to filter in.

I've been away from the game since the summer of 2007, so I'm a bit anxious to see what everyone is using nowadays. I've used a classic Level X automag and held my own okay...but I've wondered how long that will continue to hold true.

I've upgraded to a Level X Minimag with ULE trigger retro valve...but am I just delaying the inevitable?

I have a PM5 that I'm trying to get running...I figure if I'm outgunned it'll eventually be my primary marker. Got an autococker I was thinking of throwing an E-blade on but I can't get that thing running worth a darn. :mad:

I know, I know...it's the player not the equipment right? :nono: But do you think there might be a time when mechanical markers are no longer relevant?

[ManInBlack]

It only takes 1 ball to take out an opponent, and any paintball gun can do that, electric or not.

[gunman_2000]

nah, as long as guys want to tinker with guns there will always be some fancy hot shot mech that can easily keep up with the e-guns. Look at all the pneumags out there these days. And I've never seen an RT actually rip in person before, but everything I hear about them makes me think they will hold off any electro :)

[kcombs9]

more and more fields are setting the rate of fire cap of 10-13 BPS and if they aren't I would recommend you suggest that to your field owner ;) ( I know I have )

with a ULT valve you can reach peek rate of fire in that range. Not easily or for very long but It will make you competitive :shooting:

[WenULiVeUdiE]

But do you think there might be a time when mechanical markers are no longer relevant?

In a competitive environment, mechanical markers are not relevant and essentially a waste of time, unless it is a mechanical and pump only tournament (obviously).

[CatoRockwell]

As a woodsball player who up until November of 2009 used purely mechanical. I can speak with some experience on this. At our woodsball, recball, scenario events we now have a lot of players using electros. It all started with the cheap Ion, but now if I go to an event we've got entire teams running with electro's (i.e. Team Desert Edge uses Ego's). However, that never stopped me & my mech buddies from doing well. Guys with Pumps are still feared on the field, and my mech Tac One held off the electro's reliably. Ironically after saying this I have to admit that I just upgraded my Tac One to an E-Tac. There is only one reason I did this, there would be several gun fights where some guy with an electro could just keep my boys down just by spraying. While I could hold my own just fine against and electro, the fact is sometimes you just need to lay down some suppressive fire.

I think there will always be a place for Mech markers, heck my E-Tac is out getting annodized and my backup ULE Mag, worked just fine over this weekend against my opponents who were using electros, in fact they were really surprised that I played as aggressive as I did with a mechanical marker.

[mostpeople]

I think we are about to re-enter the age of the mechanical marker. Possibly within 2 years.

[cockerpunk]

as long as your not playing for prizes, money, and fame, mech guns will always hold there own.

[b-cuzz]

I've eliminated all manner of electros with my mech Mag.
I've played long enough to where I don't feel the need to have an ungodly rate of fire. I've never used an electro before, though, so there may be some hidden appeal to them I don't know about.
I own a Rainmaker, but that's more out of adding to my collection of oldies, and I have yet to use it. Batteries are getting expensive, and I need almost a dozen 9v's just to keep my revvies turning.
I believe that a rather large part of the number of electro users out there consists of people who feel belittled by electros, and bought one out of intimidation.

[mostpeople]

yeah

I just wish someone would start a purely mechanical tourney series.

[211]

I shoot electros (like my Emag in E mode) when I want to conserve paint
my old RT valve fed 1100 psi shoots alot faster than I can walk the trigger

[Aslan]

yeah

I just wish someone would start a purely mechanical tourney series.
:cheers:

The field I used to play at used to have 2 divisions during open play. In the novice division you couldn't use any electronics (including hoppers) and you had to use CO2. In the expert divivsion, it was wide open.

The cool thing about that was the better players would always win. I loved playing with my old Spyder in the novice division. Right about the time I got a Mag, they combined the divisions because I guess they got tired of reffing two divisions at once and also because they got tired of loaning mech guns to guys that show up with electros...not to mention that electro hoppers were finding their way into the mech player's hands.

I didn't welcome the electros, but I was glad it changed and I could use my Mag (needs air not CO2). It wasn't too bad at first...but as more and more electros started showing up, it got worse and worse. Pretty soon you were getting hit 12 times before you could even call yourself out. :shooting:

[athomas]

Honestly, the only time I fully use the power of my electros is during the break out of a tournament or X-ball match. After those first 10 seconds, I am shooting at mechanical speeds. For general play any mechanical marker can keep up. I honestly dare anyone to stick their head out the side of a bunker that I am putting even 6 balls per second onto.

Anyone that fears the electro because of its rate of fire, just needs to get a bit more experience. Once you stop fearing the sound, you can play ball. Remember, if someone with an electro blasts your bunker for 12 seconds at a high rate of fire, then he is out of rounds and needs to reload. If he reloads and continues, then he will run himself out of rounds completely in under 2 minutes. If one guy is just "spraying" more than one or two bunkers to keep guys down, then he is not effective and is just begging to be snap shot in the goggles.

[leloup]

as long as your not playing for prizes, money, and fame, mech guns will always hold there own.

Last tourny I played in, my electro started having problems, so I switched to...drum roll...my phantom (my primary marker anyway). Got just as many people out with it as my electro, and we placed first. A marker is a marker, any of them can do just fine in any situation. Now it sure doesn't help laning with a pump, but it can be done.

As for resurgences, I have seen pump play come back a lot more than mechs. If anything, high prices will make pumps more economical...and just more fun to play with.

[Abizdafuzz]

My team plays in the SPPL and UWL and almost every one and most teams run electros out there but there are two of us on my team a good friend and myself that use our mech mags, cockers, and my blazer and we hold our own with no problems. I even play pump in the UWL and I have taken out 6 players in one game before and they were using Egos. I say with practice and knowing how and when to use any marker you can do almost any thing. I do have two Vikings, two Ebladed cockers and now getting an Emag to try and they are fun, but it takes skill to do it the other way...e-guns feel like cheating to me. To each his own I guess.

[FutureMagOwner]

Yep, I love playing against people who use their electros at full speed. I just pop my head out every few seconds and let them waste all their paint, then I come in and mow them down with maybe 20 balls shot. I don't really care what I am using, I am one of the fastest people on the trigger, but I never actually shoot that fast in a game, theres no point, I love playing to peoples weaknesses (in this case their need to shoot a crap load of paint).

[sjrtk]

At the local fields i can hang with the electro's just fine on a speed ball or rec field. Thats using a retro'd Minimag. I just can't try to trade shot for shot with these guys (most of them think its a million dollar tournament) i'm just not that fast on the trigger. But that doesn't stop me from getting an elimination or two, and having fun.

[Loneassassin]

Honestly, the only time I fully use the power of my electros is during the break out of a tournament or X-ball match. After those first 10 seconds, I am shooting at mechanical speeds. For general play any mechanical marker can keep up. I honestly dare anyone to stick their head out the side of a bunker that I am putting even 6 balls per second onto.

Anyone that fears the electro because of its rate of fire, just needs to get a bit more experience. Once you stop fearing the sound, you can play ball. Remember, if someone with an electro blasts your bunker for 12 seconds at a high rate of fire, then he is out of rounds and needs to reload. If he reloads and continues, then he will run himself out of rounds completely in under 2 minutes. If one guy is just "spraying" more than one or two bunkers to keep guys down, then he is not effective and is just begging to be snap shot in the goggles.

^^^This sums it up for me too. I rarely shoot faster than 10bps with my E-cocker unless it's off the break. I can shoot 10bps with my mech cocker, and at least that fast with my RT ULE. So it's really not a big deal. I play up front most of the time where it's a lot more about snap-shooting and first-shot accuracy. It only takes around 3 *accurate* balls per second to keep someone in their bunker.

In woodsball, it makes absolutely no difference whether I use a mech or electro.

[chafnerjr]

Yep... it's pretty much well said by now. Lot of better players are even switching to pump up here even with the agglets and their electros.

P.S. Almost any pneu can shoot to current ROF caps allowed on rec fields.

[BlackOps]

I haven't really played much at the competitive speedball level, but I'm not really gripping under what conditions a person would think that a good top end mechanical marker can't be competitive on any field.

At 10bps you are talking about only 1/10th of a second between paintballs.

Or is it simply matter of players replacing accuracy with volume?

[chafnerjr]

I agree with you, but for the sake of playing devils advocate... I'll only say that in competitive speedball a lot of players line up on a position and stream paint until just enough of something pops out to get hit... whether or not you wonder if it's:

simply matter of players replacing accuracy with volume?
It's not spray and pray because the good ones are pretty accurate but it's about catching that other baller in the .25 seconds they're open that's important. On the rec field I far prefer a mech due to the lack of "issues" that pop up. Besides, at normal caps my mech is just as fast as any electro as has been stated here pretty consistently.

[BlackOps]

It's not spray and pray because the good ones are pretty accurate but it's about catching that other baller in the .25 seconds they're open that's important. On the rec field I far prefer a mech due to the lack of "issues" that pop up. Besides, at normal caps my mech is just as fast as any electro as has been stated here pretty consistently.
Yeah, I get what you are trying to say, but for the sake of splitting hairs. If you are spitting out 10bps out of your mech marker and a player peeks out for .25 seconds. Just who just got tagged out? He'd have to pop out, look and be back in cover in .09 seconds.

[athomas]

Or is it simply matter of players replacing accuracy with volume?I think this is a big part of it. Plus, intimidation is a big part of it. For experienced players, it doesn't matter as much. I am quite comfortable getting shot at by two guns shooting 15bps. It doesn't bother me. I am checking out the trajectory of the paint as it is coming by my face and I have my gun trained on the next logical bunk so that whoever is shooting at me can't have a free move. If the shooting goes erratic or stops for even a second or two, I'll pop out and take a couple of shots down field as I do a quick check before popping back in. If it is clear I immediately pop out and assume control with my 4 - 6 bps. I can maintain control for about 40 seconds at that rate. That gives my guys time to advance. At 15 bps, I can only get 12 seconds of control before I need to reload. While reloading, most people lose control. Experienced player practice it but most can't do it effectively.

[KKPASA]

I've been play paintball for over ten years. I've had a Spyder, an Automag, an Autococker, a PGP, a Phantom, and a Nerve. For 90% of that time I've played pump. It's the only way I can play, and it doesn't matter who I play against, or what they play with. I play to have fun.

[DBC]

As long as there are beginning players who don't need high end stuff and as long as there are automags, mechanical markers will be needed. I finally bought a backup marker (my primary marker that I have been using for 3 years is a TAC-1) and it is electronic. I have also shot other electros, but I get the most satisfaction when I shoot my automag.

[CatoRockwell]

On a WIN note for mechanical. As some of you may know my E-Tac is out being annodized so I've been using an xvalved ule as my backup. This last weekend I went out and rocked a bunch of electro speedball players. Not one death in 4 games, Last game in particular, they decided that me, my brother (also an automag user), and one other guy who knows us were doing too well, so they did a game of 3 on 8. I scored 5 kills with my Automag. We won the game even though it boiled down to me vs the last 2 guys.

It's not about the marker, it's about the player. Sure electro's help. Heck, I have an E-Tac for when I need to lay it down, but honestly the rate of fire I can sustain on my mech marker was able to bunker other players just fine.

Best part was. At the end of the day, the other guys were all asking about this "new marker" our automags. :D I can't believe that none of them have ever heard of one before. Heck, they thought my ULE was an electro until I showed them it was all mechanical.

:headbang:

[xero28]

I love my mech guns. My Blazer and old Cocker are smooth as butter. I've got a bunch of mags and I wanted to try something different, so I turned my X'd ULE into an EGOMag, I LOVE it! with the foregrip, rail and asa, it weighs in at around 2 pounds 3 ounces. I don't use it so I can lay down 30 bps, heck, the board is capped at 13 anyways. I just like the ease of the trigger and the way it feels. Like others, I usually use it to shoot 3 or 5 balls at a time like I do with mechs, but it's also nice to have the ability to lay down a bit more when I need to. I told myself I'd never own an electo, but I also just picked up a Viking. I personally don't care about high rates of fire. If I really wanted that, I wouldn't have sold my Classic RT with the Dynaflow at 1200 psi. But with the Viking (and of course Mags), its the quality and reliability that I'm counting on. Plus, with the Viking I can play a long day of woodsball and not have to worry about running out of air.

All that being said, I was getting my gear ready for this weekend and I pulled out my Classic Mag to test it so I could have a backup or a loaner. Shot a few rounds out of it and there was something about it that just felt sooooo goooood. ;)

EDIT: My mistake, weight isn't 2 lbs 3 oz, its 1 lb 8 oz. Its 2 lbs 15 oz with DW Fibur Barrel & insert and an empty Prophecy.

[usagi_tetsu]

The Age of the Mechanical Semi-Autos came to a close when anti-chop eyes and force-feed hoppers became inexpensive and prevalent. Some would say the Mech stopped being dominant in the late '90's, but having played most of my tournament career at that time, I can honestly say that the mechs were still a force to reckon with well into the early 2000's. Why? Even though there were many high rate of fire options out there in the electroflinger market, there weren't any loaders that could keep up, or many electros that came stock with decent anti-chop systems. If your marker is a blender at 13bps because your loader can't go above 9bps, why spend that much $$$ on it?

Does that mean that mechs are currently useless? No, but because your average player is more apt to pick up an inexpensive electroflinger over a similarly priced mech, it does mean that mechs are no longer the dominant marker of choice. At least not in sales numbers. I have electros, because when I'm feeling lazy they provide consistant shots at high rates of fire for not a lot of weight being carried around. I still have (and love) my mech markers and would love to see a national tournament series come up with a mech-only division, but I doubt it'd happen.

But are mechs dead? No way. Look at Azodin, coming out with a new mech with great features (it's a Spyder clone, but none of the Spyder's annoying propietary threading/sizing specs) at a decent price. Tippmann is still making new affordable mech markers that will last through anything up to and including global thermonuclear warfare. Even Shocktech is still offering a high end 'cocker (http://www.shocktechusa.com/sfl/index.htm) that began production in 2009, not a legacy design from the previous decade. Mechs are here to stay... just like pumps will always have a place in paintball, as will electros.

[matteusz]

I love it this is like the "When will AGD go out of business."

Short answer: not soon.

Long answer:

Relevant yes but not widely used. I need to cave and get an aluminum valve and tune it to perfection. Or go really nuts and get a pnemag built. Then I can have the super light trigger pull and all the fun of a mech. Then again maybe I will just keep enjoying my classic valve uber gun for its slowness.

Thing with a mech is you have to learn to shoot. Something that alot of paintballers miss out on since they start on electro's now a days and don't have to.

Someday I hope the pro series all turn into a mech only game. Where you actually have to have fast fingers to shoot fast.

I think what is missing for something like this to ever happen is a commonly available cheap mech gun with a light trigger pull and easy maintenance. Mags and tippman make great guns sure but when I can get a pm 5 with tank and hopper for 3-400$ why bother? I think mech and pump play is something you grow into in the sport. After you have done your crappy gun whore bing you eventually find yourself wanting something that really works and is a joy to shoot. You get back to wanting to play for fun. That is when the mech and pump guns come out.

[b-cuzz]

I'm currently building the potentially fastest marker I own. It's a single trigger Jungle Nights r/t Micromag. All I have yet to add to it is a flatline or comparable high-flow system.
Boy, if I was the last person to get picked for teams before because of my chrome short-barrel Mag.....
I can't wait to tell them "Don't make me wanna break out the purple one....."
My group played a 5v5 speedball game one day with some walk-ons. The way the teams ended up, most of the heavier hitters from my group were on the other team (Andy-hyperframe q tac-one, Devon-Xvalve ule hyperframe, Shannon-alley cat, but he's good with it, Josh-e-cocker, agg-Ion or Dye or something).
My team was gone in a few seconds. I managed to get down to the agg and Josh, and the agg wouldn't call out. Must be because I only hit him once. Josh got me while the agg was "checking himself". I had it won. I knew where Josh was.
S'all good. When you know it, it still feels like a win. I still did it with El Chromo. I'd still do it again, too.

[Aslan]

Well, I went to the field Saturday to debut my Minimag and...

I guess my feelings were mixed. I did hold my own against most every marker out there, but I will say the response triggered A5s and X7s were difficult.

When I got into a firefight with some spyder clone or 98Custom, I had the edge. But once I started getting fired on by the full autos, my ability to poke my head out and see where the shots were coming from became virtually impossible.

One thing that happened was I don't know how many comments I got from players that had NO IDEA what kind f marker I was using and what the square thing on the bottom (warp) was. The AO community would have either laughed or cried as they heard the many "guesses" as to what I was using. Everything from a "new Spyder" to an "air fed hopper" :nono: And these weren't "total newbs"...I'd expect that from guys that just started playing...but these guys had a couple years under their belt. One thing we need to do is bulk these kids up a little though. When I let these kids hold the Mag I don't know how many times I heard; "OMG it's heavy! How can you carry that!" :rolleyes: Granted, my right bicep is a bit sore today... :headbang:

[b-cuzz]

Pick yer shots, and keep 'em in the bunker till ya come around on 'em. If the paint starts hittin' yer bunker, look for a fallback 'cuz they know you're there. Ya just gots ta play against the player. It gets depressing trying to play against other people's guns. Quickly.
Every day more and more players will rely more on their rates of fire than their abilities to actually play the game. If they don't know where you are, their rate of fire is useless.
Ain't nothing wrong with being out-gunned, but rare is the day I'm out-played.
That's not saying I win every game by any means, but when someone actually makes the effort and out-plays me, that's a loss I can smile and congratulate the opponent about. I've been out-gunned, too, and I walk off saying "Well, y'all got it done, but it took y'all to get it done."

[ProblemKinder]

Tippmann is still making new affordable mech markers that will last through anything up to and including global thermonuclear warfare.

provided you have an unlimited supply of sears :rolleyes:

[ProblemKinder]

Look at Azodin, coming out with a new mech with great features (it's a Spyder clone, but none of the Spyder's annoying propietary threading/sizing specs) at a decent price.

also, speaking of azodin, pumps and mech vs electro, anybody see this?

http://www.azodin.com/kp_plus/default.asp

looks like inkundone has some competition! :rolleyes:

also I took this from shocktech's website:

"With the back to basics game making a comeback and the rates of fire continuing to be lowered its time to return to the guns we all loved."

thoughts?

[boy scout]

On the subject of all of us youngsters relying on our guns to shoot fast, I picked my newest electro based solely on the boards max rate of fire being able to be programmed down to 5. Its fun to lend the g3 to people and tell them its on ramping... NXL 3 shot activation 5bps max. hehe
On the subject of mech markers-
"OMG, THIS GUN SHOOTS IN THE RAIN?!?!?!"
-an imaginary person who would probably own a "broken ion" that needs a new battery

[chafnerjr]

Nothing better than walking up to the mask cleaning station and giving your mag a bath while everyone looks on in horror!

[Konigballer]

Well, I went to the field Saturday to debut my Minimag and...

I guess my feelings were mixed. I did hold my own against most every marker out there, but I will say the response triggered A5s and X7s were difficult.

I agree with what b-cuzz said about playing against higher rof markers, keep your head focused on the actual player and how to defeat him.

However, if you want to 'get even' in the rof/bps arena, you can do that as well with your Minimag by upgrading to a Retro or Xvalve, and either shimming your on'off with a preset tank or buying an adjustable. My single trigger Retro Valved Minimag will go toe-to-toe with any electro in a bps match if I choose to crank up my MaxFlo. I never do though, I prefer straight semi, more challenging.

[athomas]

Well, I went to the field Saturday to debut my Minimag and...

I guess my feelings were mixed. I did hold my own against most every marker out there, but I will say the response triggered A5s and X7s were difficult.

When I got into a firefight with some spyder clone or 98Custom, I had the edge. But once I started getting fired on by the full autos, my ability to poke my head out and see where the shots were coming from became virtually impossible.That happens no matter what type of gun you are shooting. Once you are out and firing, you can hold them in too.

[Loneassassin]

I've honestly never found much difference between a good mechanical semi and an electro. (in terms of being "outgunned.")

Sure, it's easier to create and sustain a high rof with an electro, but I think after around 9bps, the extra rof really doesn't do that much. Even when I play speedball with my electro, I rarely shoot over 9-10bps unless it's off the break - and then it's only for a few seconds, generally. Maybe this is because I started off playing with stock class guns - you really learn to make your first shots count. I guess I've never really lost that. And when you hand me a gun that will do 9bps and up - it's just like a bonus statistical advantage. :shooting: :cheers:

I see a lot of beginning players, not necessarily noobs, but players who have been in it for a couple of years - buying into the high-rof mindset. They go out and get a fast gun and rain a lot of paint, but their fundamental playing skills are lacking.

Case in point, a year or so ago I played against 3 of just those kind of players in a woodsball game. (I had one guy on my team but he got shot right away.) Anyway, I was using my Sniper (pump), and the opposing 3 guys had RT'd A-5's - and they weren't afraid to use them, if you know what I mean.

Anyway, I got into a nice position behind a huge, wide boulder that was about chest high and about 20 feet wide - so I could pop out from multiple positions. Their main strategy was apparently to knock the boulder over with paint so they could finally hit me. I could look up and see the 13+bps streams flying over my head. I would guess that each of them shot no less than 5 pods per game. When I could see that a stream was over my head, I'd pop up two feet to the right and shoot a guy. I repeated this until they were all shot. I did this game after game after game. No attempt was ever made to flank me. It was laughable.

The point is - there is a lot more to this game than simply shooting fast. There is no reason one guy with a pump should ever be able to beat 3 guys with full-autos and a liberal supply of paint. :D

[going_home]

I like using a semi and limited paint.
I use a 100 round Sport Shot and bring a hundred round pod out with me.
I just ordered one of the new Allen Paintball 50 round hoppers and
three 50 round pods.
Going to try a smaller hopper :D

[zondo]

Well, I went to the field Saturday to debut my Minimag and...

I guess my feelings were mixed. I did hold my own against most every marker out there, but I will say the response triggered A5s and X7s were difficult.

When I got into a firefight with some spyder clone or 98Custom, I had the edge. But once I started getting fired on by the full autos, my ability to poke my head out and see where the shots were coming from became virtually impossible.


I had this issue on Saturday at GTF in Jacksonville. I really couldn't hold the tape with my pneumag facing 3 guys coordinating an attack on me with full auto or auto response A-5's. So I switched to my Cyborg and just tried wasting a few pods per game to even the score. 3 shot burst or ramping was WAY too much and I didn't feel like I could control it.

I did manage to figure out my problem, and it wasn't so much mech vs electro but instead it was the tiny paint that my .684 PPS twistlock barrel was too big for. After the 2nd game with the 'borg, I switched to the .682 back of my kit and I was finally shooting darts. If I had a smaller bore twistlock, I probably never would have switched to the 'borg. Once I could shoot accurately, I just used pure semi with 11 bps cap.

Like someone said, I only had to be accurate for 3 balls in a second.

[Bassaro]

As one of the guys who started playing this game when the majority of players used pumps (me and my nelly 007) and progressed every step into a electro I have to say the game is evolving.

I am currently using a angel A1 as my primary marker. I play big scenarios (command at a lot) and really have a feel for the woodsball world. The truth is simple, a electro on the field is a force all it's own no matter who is firing it. So many kids today get a smart parts or proto entry level marker,it is hard to charge a electro with a mech, and if the electros pack together your in for a hard time.

Here is another notion that no one pointed out. How hard would it be to take down a experienced player with a nice electro in the woods??? I have found that if you have experience and a nice electro you can do FAR more damage.

I am not saying that if you take a mech or pump to the field that you will not stand a chance. I am simply stating that it will be harder to accomplish the feats you used to achieve. As we all get older, fatter, and less flexible it will be harder to take a mech to the field and rely on experience.

Like I stated earlier the game is evolving (like when we changed from pump to semi). Considering the thought of evolving with it does not make you any less of a skilled player.

[chafnerjr]

Why and how? If you're holding yourself up by sheer ROF then who's really playing the game? Now you didn't say that you shoot people a bunch of times so I'll assume that you offer suppressive fire, or taking out the other speedballers on field, but why would any new player want to play games where 20 rounds/second are going over their heads. The game is always evolving... but most recently cap's have gotten lower and lower. Fields are finding that it makes more sense to attract new players than to make up money on a few players that launch paint all day long.

[Mr. Mouse]

I've eliminated all manner of electros with my mech Mag.
I've played long enough to where I don't feel the need to have an ungodly rate of fire. I've never used an electro before, though, so there may be some hidden appeal to them I don't know about.
I own a Rainmaker, but that's more out of adding to my collection of oldies, and I have yet to use it. Batteries are getting expensive, and I need almost a dozen 9v's just to keep my revvies turning.
I believe that a rather large part of the number of electro users out there consists of people who feel belittled by electros, and bought one out of intimidation.

if your killing through 9v's get a rotor you get 50,000+ shots off 3 double a's which will save you money in the long run

and i love woodsball just as much as i love speedball, i just like speedball because you can consistantly play game after game where as woodsball is fun and a different set of skills, more of a battlefield where as speedball is holding lanes and pushing up. I still own a z-grip mag, a hyper mag and i have a redframe hyperframe im thinking of putting a universal board in and putting eyes on one of my mags but at the same time if i do that i wont have my mech z-grip warped feed mag that i LOVE i mean ABSOLUTELY LOVE playing woodsball with. I think much of this has to do with preference, a electro you get wet the gun fries and its not operational (exception of e/x mag), mech guns run in whatever kind of weather and guns such as tippmans can get run over by suvs and still work where as you did that to, lets say my brand new eclipse geo, it would get flattened like a pancake, it all has to do with preference and what kind of game you play, ive played with a phantom pump i use to own and loved it, ball after ball on target most the time. Electros in woodsball games are nice up to an extent, its nice for suppression but at the same time your wasting alot of paint compared to say someone with a pump or mech, and ive seen pneumags they are sick nasty fast and rt's with modded pins. So i say the gun depends on which kind of game you want to play, or your style/preference, ive seen people with some old palmers guns and some others whoop people with electros, paintball comes down to skill not throwing tons of paint.

it is truely sad that these new people, even a few years under your belt or not, dont know the history of paintball or what AGD is, its probabley one of the best markers out there all around, you can make it a pump, mech, or electro, and they are the most rugid gun that ive played with that is a nice size ( saying that i dont like the way tippmans are designed to be held), if these people would know what agd is and what they are, i think AGD would make a big comeback, maybe its just me.

[sjrtk]

it is truely sad that these new people, even a few years under your belt or not, dont know the history of paintball or what AGD is, its probabley one of the best markers out there all around, you can make it a pump, mech, or electro, and they are the most rugid gun that ive played with that is a nice size ( saying that i dont like the way tippmans are designed to be held), if these people would know what agd is and what they are, i think AGD would make a big comeback, maybe its just me.


I second that sentiment, but alot of the kids don't want to hear that there is even something else out there.

[CatoRockwell]

AGD could make a comeback but theyd have to mass produce the mech markers enough to lower the cost significantly. Make it cheap to dtart but easy to
upgrade. Then with a little marketing, BAM!

[b-cuzz]

Agreed to the last 3 posts. I feel that AGD is going to have an opening to make a large comeback soon. If so, that'll hopefully bring new players to realize who they are and what their guns are capable of.
The fundamental problem is newer players not realizing the single most important phrase as applied to paintball...... "Fear No Gear"

[Aslan]

One counter to the mechanical age ending is in fact the popularity of automags. The resale value is very good on Mags. I see very basic minimags and classic automags sell for $50-$75 and modified Mags selling for $300-$1200. There are no mech markers that can even compare to that.

I've contemplated building my 3rd mag but haven't because of the cost. You gotta put at least $125 into parts just to piece together a working mag...and that's very much on the low end.

[tribalman]

as i finally got my pump kit in for my cocker after having a blade 2 :rofl: i can't wait to use it. i've played with pump before, but not for a few years. 2004 maybe. lately i've been using my e-mag in mech as my primary, battery went bad so no e-mode for me. last time i went i didn't bring any of my electros, just my cocker as a backup. while i was able to have fun and hold my own, once the open game tourney practice players showed up it got really hard to keep up. when these types show up i usually pull out an electro not to shoot streams of paint, but to have those 3 shots fired in quick succession. it really helps.

[sjrtk]

AGD could make a comeback but theyd have to mass produce the mech markers enough to lower the cost significantly.

Again i second the motion, but they can't mass produce a product the will sit on the self and collect dust while tying up revenue. I go out of my way to loan my mags out to people with electros. But at $491 a pop with the ult, i quote "I can buy and up my mini for that.". We need to get people to rediscover mags and order them, so that the AGD crew has to make more.

[Konigballer]

One counter to the mechanical age ending is in fact the popularity of automags. The resale value is very good on Mags. I see very basic minimags and classic automags sell for $50-$75 and modified Mags selling for $300-$1200. There are no mech markers that can even compare to that.

I disagree with this. A bone stock Minimag used to cost around $400 -500+ when I was in middle school & high school. Now, like you said, a nice one can be had as low as $100-120.

A Classic RT was around $800+ in '97, now their in the $175-$275 range.

I believe classic Mags where $500+ in the very early 90's, now...well you get the idea.

Even E-mags & X-mag prices have dropped a bit in this economy. Realistically, mags don't have great re-sale value in the long run, save for nice X-mags & SFL mags. Thats how it rolls though, nothing else does either really. Drop $1000 into a Tippy and expect to sell it for $300 if your lucky. Poor cockers sell for nothing these days, and I feel sorry for people who ever dropped a grand on a new angel when I see them in the sales threads.

Give it 20 or 30 years, then the values of some guns might actually climb dramatically instead of merely hold steady, or fall. Who knows what the market will look like then, or the game itself.

[Aslan]

I disagree with this.

What I meant was, most mechanical markers are virtually worthless on the resale market...Mags you can still get something for. Maybe not what you paid to buy or build them, but enough to make it worthwhile.

[Konigballer]

Thats because most mechs cost a fraction of a brand new mag to begin with. You buy a new Tippy 98 for $100-125, then a resale drop to $50 isn't that big a deal.

[chafnerjr]

I'd agree with this statement. Even just the valve is worth more than almost any tippmann after a few years use.

[cerrik]

I was out playing a little rec with some friends a while back with my Warped Minimag. It was a small group, I'd say 6 a side. I saddled up toe to toe against a guy shooting an Ego. I would pop out and put about 6-9 balls at him before ducking back in, then I would hear the 13-20 balls of his hit my bunker before repeating. After the game, he told me I was wizzing mine in his face, keeping him pinned. While his were all over the place. He was amazed at the accurracy of the Mag. I ended up getting him. But yeah, after, I looked at my bunker and saw his shots were in a wide spread pattern, and Mine were in about 6-8 inch group. So I had no problem then keeping up with an electro... since then, I upgraded to an X-valve and a ULT. Still all mech though. I haven't played with my electro in over a year.

[BlackOps]

I wanted to come back and touch on this thread again, as I had some experiences at Wayne's World a week ago that made me do some reflecting on this subject.

I recently switched from a 16 year old primary classic mag to my recently purchased X-valved mag. I was astounded at the rate of fire I could get out of this thing as a mechanical semi-auto. I had zero problems keeping anyone behind bunkers that I chose to suppress. AGD put me in awe in the 90's with the original mag, and I was just as much in awe again with their newer lineup.

What I did discover however that will have me on the prowl for a set of xmod emag lowers, is that apparently 1-2 breaks isn't enough to convince today's woodsball players to call themselves out. So apparently the age of the mechanical marker IS dead. I'm gonna have to upgrade to 20+ bps so I can force my targets to beg me to let them out of the game. <sigh>

[b-cuzz]

I wanted to come back and touch on this thread again, as I had some experiences at Wayne's World a week ago that made me do some reflecting on this subject.

I recently switched from a 16 year old primary classic mag to my recently purchased X-valved mag. I was astounded at the rate of fire I could get out of this thing as a mechanical semi-auto. I had zero problems keeping anyone behind bunkers that I chose to suppress. AGD put me in awe in the 90's with the original mag, and I was just as much in awe again with their newer lineup.

What I did discover however that will have me on the prowl for a set of xmod emag lowers, is that apparently 1-2 breaks isn't enough to convince today's woodsball players to call themselves out. So apparently the age of the mechanical marker IS dead. I'm gonna have to upgrade to 20+ bps so I can force my targets to beg me to let them out of the game. <sigh>

Nah, honor on the field is what's dead.

On a happier note, I just got a Tippmann A-5 paid off at the pawn shop that came with quite a ton of gear, and a way to carry it. I kept what I needed, and traded the rest to a friend for a complete Classic Mag and a few extra parts.
A-5 = $100 = nice Mag = a quite happy b-cuzz
I didn't rip my friend by any means, he was as happy as me.

[Pha|anx]

Didn't bother to read everything... :D

Just played at PEVs in DC on Sunday and we had a few guys from the local pump team playing. Did they hold their own? Yes. Did the shoot people? Of course...

Mechs will always be relevant so long as the marker can fire a 68* paintball @ 300fps.

People who think that you can't compete just cause you don't have a current year $1000 + electro are deluded.

[BlackOps]

Nah, honor on the field is what's dead.
Yeah, sadly I had hoped that this was relegated to the arena/speedball type play and was really looking forward to getting back to woodsball only to find that it has died there as well. :(

[cockerpunk]

Yeah, sadly I had hoped that this was relegated to the arena/speedball type play and was really looking forward to getting back to woodsball only to find that it has died there as well. :(

indeed, speedball is a far cleaner sport then woodsball ever could be. it is just to easy to cheat in the woods.


i think as long as there are people who play paintball for the fun of it, and don't mind losing a game or two, the mech market will be alive and well. if im playing to win, like i payed good money to put my pride on the line at a tournament, ill probably shoot an electro. going out at the local field though, for a fun day of paintball ... mechs are fair game and a frequent choice of mine.

[BlackOps]

indeed, speedball is a far cleaner sport then woodsball ever could be. it is just to easy to cheat in the woods.

I think you perhaps misunderstood me. It has been my experience that the young uber competitive players in speedball had little to no integrity and I had hoped that it hadn't permeated onto the woodsball field, but it has. :(

[M98Punk]

currently I am working on building two more Mechanical markers (microMags Natc) so I think all is alive in well.

I'm just waiting to get my Q-pods back (don't leave them winded for 5 years in a box) so I can dip my whole gun in water then rip it at 20+ bps :dance:

[cockerpunk]

I think you perhaps misunderstood me. It has been my experience that the young uber competitive players in speedball had little to no integrity and I had hoped that it hadn't permeated onto the woodsball field, but it has. :(

those are the same kids who play in the woods ... and its nearly impossible to police anything in the woods.

[athomas]

This lack of honor hasn't just happened in the last few years. It was there long before speedball was even around. I remember playing against guys back in 1990 that played that way. There are just larger numbers of people playing now, so more people notice it.

On topic:

I had a great day of paintball this past weekend. I played in "Warriors in the Woods" scenario game with 300 people (150 aside). We had generals and squad leaders and several objectives. Had a blast crawling through the woods with my retro mag.

[Aslan]

I will say that this weekend, I was able to hold my own quite well with my Retro Valved Minimag versus X7s and E-triggered A5s. So maybe this mechanical age ain't quite dead yet. :shooting:

[longi]

I've always found the Retro valve to be an equal match for any electro out there. It fires at the same speed, so why wouldn't it be? ;)

[Loneassassin]

those are the same kids who play in the woods ... and its nearly impossible to police anything in the woods.

At least where I play woodsball, there is still a sense of honor upheld. Cheaters are simply not tolerated. Over the last 8 years or so, I've only encountered it a handful of times in woodsball.

One thing I will say is that if I discover that a player is wiping in woodsball, I have always been able to deliver justice to them in that game, and if not then, the next game. I never forget someone who wipes, and once they are "marked" in my mind, they no longer recieve a courtesy 1-2 balls for an elimination. They get shot until their hand goes up - period.

This has not been the case in speedball, where cheaters are often decently skilled. It becomes a lot harder to solve the problem - plus with all the chaos in a speedball game, you're likely to get shot before you can do anything about that player. I've played speedball with people who wiped 5+ shots. What can you do?

[BlackOps]

One thing I will say is that if I discover that a player is wiping in woodsball, I have always been able to deliver justice to them in that game, and if not then, the next game. I never forget someone who wipes, and once they are "marked" in my mind, they no longer recieve a courtesy 1-2 balls for an elimination. They get shot until their hand goes up - period. Which was exactly the motive behind my post about switching from mech to electronic. I want those players to beg me to let them out of the game.

[M98Punk]

Which was exactly the motive behind my post about switching from mech to electronic. I want those players to beg me to let them out of the game.

Bah you can do the same thing with a mech.... I don't see how having another 9volt is gonna make someone beg

[Phantom_Mag]

In a competitive environment, mechanical markers are not relevant and essentially a waste of time, unless it is a mechanical and pump only tournament (obviously).


I hope you were kidding. You must have been.

[athomas]

An electronic marker can give confidence to a poor player, but they will still be a poor player. A good player can use any type of marker and make it work for them. That is why they are a good player. If you need an electronic marker to make you better, then you actually need practice, not a new marker.

[Hobbez]

Let 'em know your there, let em shoot a hopper at you, wait for the reload, and pow. You shot 300, I shot 3 and my mech just got your electro out.

[paintmann111]

If anyone is going to ION at skirmish they will find out. I will have my Classic RT mag with warpfeed and dynaflow tank ready to rip @1100psi. Only problem is running out of air. I figure a 113ci 3000psi I should be able to mange a couple of hoppers. I guess i should bust out the 114ci 4500 psi raptor as well.

[maglover666]

nah, as long as guys want to tinker with guns there will always be some fancy hot shot mech that can easily keep up with the e-guns. Look at all the pneumags out there these days. And I've never seen an RT actually rip in person before, but everything I hear about them makes me think they will hold off any electro :)

ive never seen an electro shoot faster then an rt so technically mechs are faster then electro's

[CatoRockwell]

ive never seen an electro shoot faster then an rt so technically mechs are faster then electro's
Well i recall watching a video on youtube totest the speed of a qloader where an rt mag at like 2000psi input was rocking 31bps, but an aka viking was shooting 34bps so i think there are electros that can shoot faster. Not that you would ever need to shoot that fast.

[xero28]

Well i recall watching a video on youtube totest the speed of a qloader where an rt mag at like 2000psi input was rocking 31bps, but an aka viking was shooting 34bps so i think there are electros that can shoot faster. Not that you would ever need to shoot that fast.

Other way around. Viking @ 31, RT @ 34


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[thejere]

I'm of the opinion that the 'age of the mech' will never be over simply due to reliability and quality.
Rate of fire, you can take it or leave it, but if you've got the angle on someone and your marker can't shoot straight or shoot at all you'll never hit them. Low cost mechs like tippmanns have a place because they'll always shoot and are easy to fix at the field. High ends like mags will always shoot darts an be easy to take care of as well.

The biggest thing that kills a day at field is having you marker let you down.

Viva the gun that fires.

BTW, is it still a mech if you've got a battery in your loader?

[paintmann111]

I have been playing since '99 and I honestly don't know how I played with the VL200 hopper (non-agitated), and that was with a tippy. How the hell did people play with an RT and VL200. LOL

[CatoRockwell]

Other way around. Viking @ 31, RT @ 34


my bad, still freakin sweet though.