Valve Modification Efficiency Testing

[Smoothice]

A few weeks ago Loguzzzzzz cracked open my powertube on my sydarm valve. We then filled the dump chamber. Probably reducing the dump chamber by 50% or more. I then took it to the chrono range for some testing. All fps measurements were done on a big red chronograph.

Time between shots was only a few seconds. The amount of time for me to pull the trigger, read the chrono, write down the fps.

The weather was beautiful ;) Probably in the 80's. Excellent 12 gram weather.

All 12 grams were weighed on a postal scale before use. I only used the ones that weighed the same. 43 grams full...

Paint used was pretty consistent size. It fit in the .682 insert just snug enough to not roll out and could be blown out with minimal effort. I would have made sure each ball was exactly the same size but I wanted to actually get some play time in.

Before testing I chrono'ed the marker to shoot about 280 fps. There were no velocity adjustments made after that.

Highlighted results are what I consider the last usable in play shot.

Here are my results v v v v

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x57/smoothice15/valvemodefficiencydata.jpg (http://s187.photobucket.com/albums/x57/smoothice15/?action=view&current=valvemodefficiencydata.jpg)


The only test I wish I would have done would be to see how the efficiency would have changed by using a stock valve with a longer barrel.

Questions or comments please post up.

Any if anyone needs their valve opened up and the volume reduced please contact loguzzzzzz.

He is able to do both spot welded valves and full lasered valves. He did my minimag valve and sydarm valve (both full laser welded) and they came out great. You can't even tell he did anything :clap:

[Smoothice]

Next time out I will conduct another test to compare a stock valve with short barrel vs a stock valve with a longer barrel. This is the only factor that would really be helpful...

[smilestyler]

Did you use the valve after the mod? What happened to the 5th shot after a string?

[Smoothice]

Did you use the valve after the mod? What happened to the 5th shot after a string?

Yes, test 2,3,4 were all done after the valve was modded. Then I played the rest of the day with it that way also.

Huh? After the 5th shot of a string was the 6th shot. Then the 7th,...

I don't think i understand your question :D

[BigEvil]

Im guessing there was no rapid fire testing.

[Smoothice]

Im guessing there was no rapid fire testing.

Nope. But during normal play I had to do a few rapid fires. Didn't notice much shootdown or freezing. But again I only have 8 shots...

[jolt00]

how did loguzzzzzz "crack it open" and devolumize it?

[Smoothice]

how did loguzzzzzz "crack it open" and devolumize it?

trade secrets is my guess ;)

Maybe he'll post up details. But i'll leave that up to him.

[smilestyler]

Yes, test 2,3,4 were all done after the valve was modded. Then I played the rest of the day with it that way also.

Huh? After the 5th shot of a string was the 6th shot. Then the 7th,...

I don't think i understand your question :D

Sorry, I meant rapid firing :tard:

[MANN]

how did loguzzzzzz "crack it open" and devolumize it?

you can cut the weld on some older automag valves (they are just spot welded). Then heat them up, and they open up easily.

I would think that someone with minimal machine skills could cut the full weld off the newer valves. I would dare to guess that they are threaded too.

[Smoothice]

Sorry, I meant rapid firing :tard:

No real rapid firing tests besides on the field. And "I didn't notice anything" isn't to scientific.

If I fired a fast string over a red field chrono what would happen? Would it read all the shots? Maybe if I video taped it I could see fps.

Or would it just show the last shot fired? At least that would tell me if there was drop off on the last shot.

It would be easy just to load up 5-6 shots in the sydarm and read the last shot on the chrono.

[jolt00]

you can cut the weld on some older automag valves (they are just spot welded). Then heat them up, and they open up easily.

I would think that someone with minimal machine skills could cut the full weld off the newer valves. I would dare to guess that they are threaded too.

Yeah that’s what i have been doing with my dremel but its leaves a bigger cut than i would like. so i didn't know if someone had another way. if i had a lathe it might be better lol.

[Loguzzzzzz]

you can cut the weld on some older automag valves (they are just spot welded). Then heat them up, and they open up easily.

I would think that someone with minimal machine skills could cut the full weld off the newer valves. I would dare to guess that they are threaded too./\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\. . . . .This was already answered in the very first post. . . . .\/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/

He is able to do both spot welded valves and full lasered valves. He did my minimag valve and sydarm valve (both full laser welded) and they came out great. You can't even tell he did anything :clap:

[jolt00]

so loguzzzzzz...... do you use a lathe? :)

and earlier i was asking for more specifics. not the cut the weld and heat the lock tight and such. :rofl:

[paintball72]

I assume you could do this with a classic valve?

[Smoothice]

I assume you could do this with a classic valve?

Yup!

Loguzzzzzz did 2 or 3 classics. Plus my minimag valve and my sydarm. I was kinda scared about the sydarm valve. As those are not very easy to replace. But it came out great.

I feel the sydarm is probably the most in-efficient AGD valve made. The 12 gram is on the top on its side. So I picture liquid co2 having no other option then to drain into the valve. And the fact it is a pistol is also a negative for consistency. The use of a short barrel (as shown in my tests) is horrible on efficiency. But can you imagine trying to draw a 12 inch barrel out of a holster? :rofl:

[athomas]

Great test. It confirms what I was thinking all along. I am as curious as the others on the affect it has on its ability to recharge. I suspect, it will be fine as long as the chamber pressure is still at least 200psi lower than the bottle/cartridge pressure.

[skyless]

I believe I read somewhere that polishing the bolt/powertube helps with efficiency. Anyone able to verify this. If i could squeek 1 or 2 more shots out of a 12 gram it would be worth it. also trying to configure a one way connection between my valve and 12 grams to keep from discharging between 12ie changes. Hoping ill have more time and $$ over the summer to invest in experimenting on efficiency.
The thought of putting a inline regulator is tempting but adding the bulk is not. I do hate the consistency of 12 grams though.

[Smoothice]

I believe I read somewhere that polishing the bolt/powertube helps with efficiency. Anyone able to verify this. .

there is much talk about that with the Tiberius tac8's. Which is very similar to an automag valve. I polished mine sa-8 right before i sent it back to Tiberius :tard:

One of these days I will polish my new tac8.

The sa-8 was very rough. I've never seen an automag bolt that rough.

[Loguzzzzzz]

I polished and devolumized my Tac 8 and my SA8, now I am just waiting for a weekend to test them.

Skyless, I assume that you got your valve, Never heard back from you. According to the USPS it was delivered on April 1st. Did you ever get my PM sent on March 30th?
:confused:

[skyless]

I polished and devolumized my Tac 8 and my SA8, now I am just waiting for a weekend to test them.

Skyless, I assume that you got your valve, Never heard back from you. According to the USPS it was delivered on April 1st. Did you ever get my PM sent on March 30th?
:confused:

Guess i left feedback and forgot to pm you. Ill pm you now. Great work.

[skyless]

Finally got some time and the parts to reassemble my 12gram mag.
I'll take some pics shortly, but for now just the basics.
Classic valve w/aluminum back (devolumized)
Palmer inline stab
micro ca II
Before installing the modified valve, stab, and micro ca II was getting 8-12 usable shots.
After upgrading I'm getting a minimum of 20 shots in the 280 +/-10 fps range with a non insert barrel.
Wihout adjusting velosity and switching to a DW fibur w/underbored insert fps changes to 260 +/-5 with just shy of 30 shots.
Very impressive results! I'll try to do a more accurate write up with shot to shot stats
like smoothice did, once I break it in and find the sweet spot settings for the stabilizer.
I put all of the shimms in that loguzzzzzz included with the devolumizing service. I didn't notice any shootdown yet, but no rapidfire test yet. Shots spaced 3-4 seconds apart due to single loading and chronoing.
I would like to try using a female stabilizer and side mount the micro ca without the butt plate to see if I can get even better results but for now I'm quite satisfied.
More to come, thanks to those who helped bring efficiency to mags, hope we can top 30 @ 280 fps.
Ohh and the beautiful 80 degree Cali weather may of
helped a bit too.

[skyless]

I finally played with my 12g mag for the first time this last weekend and it worked great. However I found out that micro ca is missing the check valve, and the one way in the Palmer was not acting like a oneway.
Anyone know where I can get a check valve for the micro ca? I'm thinking a spring and small rubber ball might just work if I can find a small ball that fits and makes seal, please pm me if you have any info. Anyway just got a pump kit so this mag is back in the project phase.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w250/skyless_album/b44727a1.jpg

[SecondRate]

Since the new buzz is efficiency these days, thought I would bump this.

It was ONLY done over a year ago! :headbang:

[hill160881]

This was where I got the Idea. ;) Just no one ever scaled it up to RT speeds to see if shoot down was a problem. As far as I know.

Also, on the inserts, y0da900 tapered the the area where the air vents for smoother flow and better compression.

[VecTor]

So what would be the price damage on such a mod??

I working on putting together a pump mag soon.

PM the info if you would please.

[DevilMan]

hey VecTor.... check out the rest of Hill's posts... you'll find a few threads that will show different things... right now he is beta testing the inserts... the testers need to sign up and give some feedback as to what they got.

More info to be found on his threads though..

DM

[Loguzzzzzz]

So what would be the price damage on such a mod??

I working on putting together a pump mag soon.

PM the info if you would please.
Tried to PM you but your PM box is full. :(