*Coming Soon* Immigration Reform

[SCpoloRicker]

Oh Hai guiyze!

Whether one likes it or not, I think it is pretty likely that we will see a push for comprehensive immigration reform before the end of Obama's first term.

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/5331/theresnomacro.jpg

I'm not set on my positions on immigration, but generally speaking, I'm against a blanket amnesty but I do support some sort of path to citizenship.

So, consider this the appropriate thread to place "Them mezzzicans done take our jorbs" and "Barack HUSSEIN Obama is going to add millions of illegals to the Democratic vote with amnesty and healthcare" emails.

[Soopa Villain17]

i think we need to complete the wall , and kick all the illegals out and dont let em back in. we need to take our country back.

[going_home]

i think we need to complete the wall , and kick all the illegals out and dont let em back in. we need to take our country back.

Well done my son :clap:











One word: E-Verify :headbang:









Well.......one word and one letter.











Being for legal immigration (and thus dead set against illegal immigration) is not racism.







http://www.hollow-hill.com/sabina/images/racist-ticket.jpg









that is all//








:rolleyes:

[Ando]

But who's going to build your roofs and cut your grass :confused:

[DevilMan]

But who's going to build your roofs and cut your grass :confused:

well I'm sure we'd make due with what we have to work with... I'm pretty sure there are still plenty of LEGAL folks here as well as natural born citizens that know how to swing a hammer and drive a lawnmower... At least I know there is no shortage of them where I'm from.

The point to me is simple and short. ILLEGAL is ILLEGAL! That's it. End of story. And YES, it is that simple!

DM

[Soopa Villain17]

well I'm sure we'd make due with what we have to work with... I'm pretty sure there are still plenty of LEGAL folks here as well as natural born citizens that know how to swing a hammer and drive a lawnmower... At least I know there is no shortage of them where I'm from.

The point to me is simple and short. ILLEGAL is ILLEGAL! That's it. End of story. And YES, it is that simple!

DM


i couldnt have said it better myself !

[MoeMag]

But who's going to build your roofs and cut your grass :confused:

The grass could be cut by the fat kid down the street sitting on his butt playing WoW with a lip ring. His daddy could be building the roofs, but is busy living two states away, making triple overtime sleeping his 4th straight shift on a couch next to the time clock who cant get fired because of the amount of paperwork required by the union (but really because the floor manager is sleeping with his sister). All the while his momma is collecting child support from him and has been on unemployment so long that she is counted as "not employable" and not adding to the national unemployment rate.

:cheers:

[WUNDERWAFFEN]

Exactly. Get rid of the leaf blower gangs & give the local kids some dough to do it.

[drg]

His daddy could be building the roofs, but is busy living two states away, making triple overtime sleeping his 4th straight shift on a couch next to the time clock who cant get fired because of the amount of paperwork required by the union (but really because the floor manager is sleeping with his sister).

You must have America confused with a country that doesn't have only 12% union membership.

[Destructo6]

I'm against a blanket amnesty but I do support some sort of path to citizenship.
There is a path to citizenship already in place: return to your country of citizenship, apply for an immigrant visa, apply for citizenship after lawfully residing in the USA.

Anything else is a blanket amnesty.

I really can't see how anyone can advocate legally immigrating people who ignore immigration law and don't see that as a problem.

[teufelhunden]

You must have America confused with a country that doesn't have only 12% union membership.

12% too high.

You made some mention in another post about how the auto bailout/loans were necessary to save manufacturing in this country. Why, pray tell, did the auto companies need help? Two problems: Leftover negative image from when their automobiles were in fact inferior to foreign vehicles and obscene union related costs. Between labor rates being out of line with the market, benefits being horribly expensive and above market, non-contributory pension plans, and the "jobs bank", costs added up. We all get it that GM/Chrysler/Ford agreed to the union contracts, but I used to be able to make my little brother agree to whatever I wanted too...

[CatoRockwell]

The problem is not immigration, it's socialism. America had a pretty open border policy for a very long time and it was never an issue. Thats because immigrants came here knowing that their success relied directly upon their own ingenuity and work.

The reason we are seeing a flood of deadbeats instead of people looking for opportunity, which would only make our country better, is because we have socialist policies in place that reward laziness. If there wasn't free school, medical care, welfare, etc... for these deadbeats, the only ones that would cross the border would be those looking to make a future for themselves and their families. The opportunity to become successful off of their own merits, that is the American Dream. I welcome anyone to this country in search of it.

We need to rid ourselves of socialism and that alone will fix the immigration issue.

[Soopa Villain17]

maybe we should have an alien hunting season , bag limit per person should be 3500.

[SCpoloRicker]

maybe we should have an alien hunting season , bag limit per person should be 3500.

See, if this was trolling, I could get behind it. I mean, you could take this and publicly comment on cnn.com - and you'd get tons of bites. But, I'm pretty sure, this isn't trolling.

[drg]

You made some mention in another post about how the auto bailout/loans were necessary to save manufacturing in this country. Why, pray tell, did the auto companies need help? Two problems: Leftover negative image from when their automobiles were in fact inferior to foreign vehicles and obscene union related costs.

Actually 100% of the reason was the poor market for products, which is not a labor issue at all. It's a corporate/management issue.

Even taking into account the legacy costs (which are absorbed by the government in countries like Japan), the cost of labor on a new American vehicle is only about 10%. This did not adversely affect costs, as American cars were routinely cheaper than imported cars. The market for them simply was not there because American companies were not offering what people needed or wanted. It is arguable that the refusal of the (conservative) government to strengthen efficiency standards is largely to blame.

Without legacy costs, the cost of labor for domestic and import cars is close to comparable.

Today you see that Toyota is not the paragon of manufacturing prowess as it was made out to be in the days when the right was busy demonizing the big 3 and the UAW.

[going_home]

I'm very thankful Florida is a right to work state.
That has mostly kept the blood sucking unions out.
Yep, that includes all of them pretty much.
Unions may have been good in the early 20th century,
but now they are nothing but a burden on the American people.
Everything they touch means higher prices for us in one way or another.

Wow, the same could be said of barak osama obama rama lama ding dong.


:mad:

[SCpoloRicker]

Wow, the same could be said of barak osama obama rama lama ding dong.


So, consider this the appropriate thread to place "Them mezzzicans done take our jorbs" and "Barack HUSSEIN Obama is going to add millions of illegals to the Democratic vote with amnesty and healthcare" emails.

I said this in another thread, but Bush wasn't Hitler, and Obama isn't Stalin.

I'm also pretty darn anti-union; I think there are several industries (auto, education, defense) that have been crippled by unions.

[drg]

I've noticed that the more namecalling someone engages in, the less valid their views turn out to be upon review. Almost invariably.

[going_home]

I've noticed that the more namecalling someone engages in, the less valid their views turn out to be upon review. Almost invariably.

Nothing is valid but your view.

[drg]

Nothing is valid but your view.

Nothing is valid but reality-based views that stand up to examination of the evidentiary backing thereof. Buzzwords and ideals are not enough, we've fallen too far simply relying on those for our direction.

[ultralight]

The market for them simply was not there because American companies were not offering what people needed or wanted. .

What is America's bestselling vehicle for 23 consecutive years? Ford F-150.

What were the two top selling vehicles in 2008? Ford and Chevy fullsize pickups.

People seem to have this backwards. The auto companies make the cars that you want. The models that don't sell well get revamped or axed.

The big three don't make the cars that the hippies like. The hippies whine the loudest and so all you ever hear is "the big three don't make cars that people want."

Here's a fun fact: It costs just about as much to make a small car as it does a medium/large car. Sure, you can pay more for leather, gps, power everything, but the basics are all there. Unibody, drivetrain, electrical, wheels/tires, paint, they are all present wether you charge 15000 or 50000. It still has to be put together by people in a factory. There just isn't much profit in a small car.
Trucks on the other hand are even cheaper to build because they use older body on frame construction, and the profits are through the roof because you charge around 20000 minimum. Why do you think honda/toyota/nissan all have trucks and big SUVs in their lineups? They make lots of money on them.

[drg]

The big three don't make the cars that the hippies like. The hippies whine the loudest and so all you ever hear is "the big three don't make cars that people want."

Yeah, hippies totally caused the American auto industry's financial problems.

Your viewpoint is woefully narrowminded and it's telling that you focused on the American market. Automakers compete in the global market (of which the US market is about a quarter) and while American makers make popular pickup trucks, foreign markers put multiple cars and trucks in the US top 10 year after year, and lead the world market. Even in America, pickup trucks represent less than 15% of the market. And America still has some of the cheapest gas in the world.

The US's inability to compete on the wider market (vertically and horizontally) has badly hurt the US auto industry. The mindset of taking the easy corporate money, as you have described succinctly above, is what caused it.

[wico90]

We are all in the USA illegally get over it

[govnamac]

But who's going to build your roofs and cut your grass :confused:

Well since college is getting more and more unaffordable, and they are finally cracking down on the predatory practices of student loan agencies, I see a lot less people going to college and more entering trades.

[Destructo6]

We are all in the USA illegally get over it
According to whom?

[Ando]

Mark my words...

You all are going to be wanting them back when your strawberries, heads of lettuce, grapes, cabbage etc..etc... go up 500%

That's not counting your meats, dairy and poultry. Illegals do more then you think in this country. Your $1 McBurger and McChicken biscuit are going to suffer. :rofl:

[ultralight]

Yeah, hippies totally caused the American auto industry's financial problems.

Your viewpoint is woefully narrowminded and it's telling that you focused on the American market. Automakers compete in the global market (of which the US market is about a quarter) and while American makers make popular pickup trucks, foreign markers put multiple cars and trucks in the US top 10 year after year, and lead the world market. Even in America, pickup trucks represent less than 15% of the market. And America still has some of the cheapest gas in the world.

The US's inability to compete on the wider market (vertically and horizontally) has badly hurt the US auto industry. The mindset of taking the easy corporate money, as you have described succinctly above, is what caused it.


They compete in a global market against government subsidized companies. When you consider the forces at work (yes, including corporate mis-management, and especially union leeching) against the american companies, it is amazing that they held on as long as they did.

Last I checked, opel/vauxhall weren't doing too bad in europe, neither was ford. GM just had a record sales month in china.

I am focused on the American market for two reasons: that is where the us auto makers are, and that is where the fierces battle for marketshare is taking place.

When the talking heads in the news talk about the auto companies and market shares, they aren't talking about how things are going in spain.

Taking the easy money was only a part of the problem. People talk alot about small cars when cas prices spike, but what happeded when they fell last year? Truck sales went through the roof. There is no "magic bullet", no one simple change that could have been made that would have fixed all of this. GM (focusing on them because they went under) was under an enormous burden and the economic collapse was the straw that broke their back. By all accounts, they are getting much leaner and closer to being profitable.

Also, immigration reform would be great.

Make it easier to get in legally and make it harder to get in illegally.

[Army]

Mark my words...

You all are going to be wanting them back when your strawberries, heads of lettuce, grapes, cabbage etc..etc... go up 500%

That's not counting your meats, dairy and poultry. Illegals do more then you think in this country. Your $1 McBurger and McChicken biscuit are going to suffer. :rofl:
No.

It's easier to pay an illegal to pick, initially, than it is to buy the machinery. When Mr Farmer does buy the machine, he can run it 24/7, easily outstripping the pickers daily volume. Why do you think cotton is so cheap and abundant? Wheat? Oats? Rice? The manual labor factor was removed. Now, instead of hundreds of thousands of dollars paid to illegals, only tens of thousands are used for maintenance costs.

0bama is certainly not Stalin....he admired Marx, and "...surrounded myself with other Marxists, radicals, and Black Panthers..."

His words, heed them.

[drg]

His words, heed them.

Context, heed it.

[skife]

I'm very thankful Florida is a right to work state.
That has mostly kept the blood sucking unions out.
Yep, that includes all of them pretty much.
Unions may have been good in the early 20th century,
but now they are nothing but a burden on the American people.
Everything they touch means higher prices for us in one way or another.

Wow, the same could be said of barak osama obama rama lama ding dong.


:mad:


michigan has a huge need for unions right now.

there are so many factory that are taking advantage of nobody having jobs and paying minimum wage. places starting out at $7.40 an hour. you can't live decent on that in michigan.

there are a ton of places around here that only employ temp workers. we need something to change in this state.

[DevilMan]

michigan has a huge need for unions right now.

there are so many factory that are taking advantage of nobody having jobs and paying minimum wage. places starting out at $7.40 an hour. you can't live decent on that in michigan.

there are a ton of places around here that only employ temp workers. we need something to change in this state.

You could if the rest of the crap came down to reasonable levels.

Good pay is all relative my friend. A person makes more, they get to pay more... it keeps going up and up until it's out of reach. Then it comes crashing down. Enough people stop paying because they can't afford it, then it comes back down. It sucks. But it has to happen, because on average places get greedy.

Paying minimum and having a job is better than having no job at all.

Not saying its the best of things at all, but at least its something. Having a union around isn't going to help much because when the crap hits the fan, the whole biz will shut down and everyone will be back out of work anyway. So what good would it bring?

DM

[drg]

Paying minimum and having a job is better than having no job at all.

Depends what your previous job was.


Not saying its the best of things at all, but at least its something. Having a union around isn't going to help much because when the crap hits the fan, the whole biz will shut down and everyone will be back out of work anyway. So what good would it bring?

Contractual protection during the time the business IS operating, and contractually mandated benefits such as severance, which could apply, depending on how the plan is shut down. Some plant closure legislation such as the WARN Act have more force when backed by a union contract as well. Very often local laws apply.

[DevilMan]

Just to keep this all under one thread...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36735281/ns/politics


PHOENIX - President Barack Obama on Thursday criticized a pending Arizona law that would make it a state crime to be in the United States illegally and require anyone suspected of being an illegal immigrant to produce identification.

What am I missing here?

How is it NOT already a CRIME to do something ILLEGALLY????

It looks like the feds are going to run the states... no matter what the state and it's populace want.

hmmmm...

DM

[bornl33t]

I'm all for amnesty and think conservatives should just pull out of politics. Look, America is going to hell in a hand basket. We almost do not function the way our founding fathers intended and all the resistance by conservatives is only painfully dragging out the inevitable. Let America die will you so we can start over.

[cockerpunk]

There is a path to citizenship already in place: return to your country of citizenship, apply for an immigrant visa, apply for citizenship after lawfully residing in the USA.

Anything else is a blanket amnesty.

I really can't see how anyone can advocate legally immigrating people who ignore immigration law and don't see that as a problem.

ah the simplicity of a black or white world view ...

its us or them, capitalism or communism, pure or evil ....



the lack of maturity, education, and thought is very evident when statements like the above are made. its ok, the lack of those three things are being glorified by the right wing now, so your just following the trend. no, don't think about anything, just get pissed and say ridiculously things! yeah, that will solve all our problems!

i think my personal favorite was when palin said "the Constitution is the way to solve our problems" and "we want a commander in chief, not a constitutional scholar in the white house" in the same speech. does anyone with half a brain listen to this kind of talk and go ... seriously, WTF?

[SCpoloRicker]

>ah the simplicity of a black or white world view ...
>its us or them, capitalism or communism, pure or evil ....

>> its ok, the lack of those three things are being glorified by the right wing now, so your just following the trend.
>>palin said
>>half a brain

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/499/notsureserious.jpg

[MoeMag]

Some reform for ya....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100423/ts_alt_afp/usimmigrationarizonagovernor_20100423223606

[Frizzle Fry]

Some reform for ya....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100423/ts_alt_afp/usimmigrationarizonagovernor_20100423223606

Arizona has done me proud twice this month.

[DevilMan]

ah the simplicity of a black or white world view ...

its us or them, capitalism or communism, pure or evil ....

the lack of maturity, education, and thought is very evident when statements like the above are made. its ok, the lack of those three things are being glorified by the right wing now, so your just following the trend. no, don't think about anything, just get pissed and say ridiculously things! yeah, that will solve all our problems!

i think my personal favorite was when palin said "the Constitution is the way to solve our problems" and "we want a commander in chief, not a constitutional scholar in the white house" in the same speech. does anyone with half a brain listen to this kind of talk and go ... seriously, WTF?

Proof Read is your friend...

Pure or Evil? How about GOOD or EVIL.

Statements like the above? And what do you know about immigration rules and laws? And why is that you think that there is a better way than to follow the laws? Why is it that you can't put up an actual FIX and instead can only call others "lack of maturity, education, and thought" So criticize someone whom you don't know instead of try and explain with logic anything of value.

Why don't you come in out of left field and realize that not everyone is "right wing" and blah blah like you seem to think/feel. There are more than a few of your "left wing" brethren that find these as well as many other actions very wrong. So tell me, if it's so damn good why isn't the entire left side all together? Huh??? Oh you don't freakin have a clue do ya! So go ahead and judge my intellect and my maturity....

Don't worry... I'll let you go on and think that I'm all the things you wish I were. I however can discuss matters of interest with thought and logic without attacking someone personally. Why don't you give it a try for once?

And sorry slick... but BLACK AND WHITE is pretty damn easy to follow! Ever notice what color road signs are? Ever notice what color ink is used on what color paper? hmmmm... yeah it is that freakin easy. Limp wrists like you are what makes it so damn difficult.

DM

[Destructo6]

Originally Posted by Destructo6
There is a path to citizenship already in place: return to your country of citizenship, apply for an immigrant visa, apply for citizenship after lawfully residing in the USA.

Anything else is a blanket amnesty.

I really can't see how anyone can advocate legally immigrating people who ignore immigration law and don't see that as a problem.



ah the simplicity of a black or white world view ...

its us or them, capitalism or communism, pure or evil ....



the lack of maturity, education, and thought is very evident when statements like the above are made. its ok, the lack of those three things are being glorified by the right wing now, so your just following the trend. no, don't think about anything, just get pissed and say ridiculously things! yeah, that will solve all our problems!

i think my personal favorite was when palin said "the Constitution is the way to solve our problems" and "we want a commander in chief, not a constitutional scholar in the white house" in the same speech. does anyone with half a brain listen to this kind of talk and go ... seriously, WTF?
Wow, pretty easy for you to throw down the, "uneducated redneck idiot," card isn't it?

So, what is ridiculous about stating the truth? There is a path to citizenship already in place and it goes as described.

How might I know something like this, you might ask. Well, simply, I've studied immigration law (have certifications, even) and deal with people who do it the right way every day. I also deal with the people who ignore the right way and jump the border fence because it is easy, or they have a criminal record, or some other consideration.

The vast majority of illegal aliens from Mexico have no interest in immigrating to the USA. Their goal is to work in the USA for a time, send money back to Mexico, and return to Mexico where they can live well on their remittances. If you've ever seen Interstate 19 in November, you would agree.

[DevilMan]

Wow, pretty easy for you to throw down the, "uneducated redneck idiot," card isn't it?

So, what is ridiculous about stating the truth? There is a path to citizenship already in place and it goes as described.

How might I know something like this, you might ask. Well, simply, I've studied immigration law (have certifications, even) and deal with people who do it the right way every day. I also deal with the people who ignore the right way and jump the border fence because it is easy, or they have a criminal record, or some other consideration.

The vast majority of illegal aliens from Mexico have no interest in immigrating to the USA. Their goal is to work in the USA for a time, send money back to Mexico, and return to Mexico where they can live well on their remittances. If you've ever seen Interstate 19 in November, you would agree.

Now you see... you don't know anything... just because you work and live in it, don't mean you know anything about it... Oh.. other than you are racist and hmmmm... yeah... I'm sure there are other things...

/sarcasm off

Good post..

DM

[DevilMan]

Hey DRG and CP...

Do either of you have a clue about Mexico's rules on Immigration? (Specifically the illegal type)

Please enlighten us on your profound knowledge and understanding of the world as it is.

DM

You know what... I'll go one better for ya... Why don't you tell all of us idiots ANY little bit of knowledge you have on ANY country's immigration and naturalization laws.

There... that gives you a selection to pick from don't it? And you know.. I don't want to pick on Mexico as I might be seen as being racist or profiling or a jingoist or (insert insult here).

So how about you share with the rest of us what you know about the subject. Keep in mind... the question isn't what you THINK nor what you THINK YOU KNOW. But what you actually KNOW as standing rules for any other country. Simple enough?

[cockerpunk]

i guess i think the young turks said it best.

the right is complaining that obama is gonna turn us into a utopia where anyone who disagrees get carted of and never seen again. and then a state literally passes a law where they can cart you off at a whim, and when obama says ".. huh ... probably not the fairest law"

and the right wing EXPLODES.

OMG ... OBAMA'S REGIME!!!!


the only regime here is the state of arazona. they now can literally arrest you and throw you in prison until you show them your birth certificate. you think obama is Orwellian, the state of arazona just made the most Orwellian law in the USA. being against the law is literally standing against authoritarianism and for freedom. in fact, law enforcement hates the law, becuase it distracts them from actually finding illegals who break the law, and prosecuting them.



the blatant hypocrisy of the right wing is astounding. just when you think they can't stoop any lower, boom, they hit you again. we love the constitution but hate it, we love freedom and are against authoritarianism, but love the laws that are authoritarian. the list goes on and on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zA7Fdxnf0E&playnext_from=TL&videos=i6t2SqtB5ms

[teufelhunden]

CP, I don't really think anybody in Arizona expects that the police are ever going to start "carding" (for lack of a better term) everybody on the street and locking up suspected illegals. I expect this is an effort to force the hand of Washington into doing something about the stream of people literally flowing into this country without any regard for our laws or regulations.

I don't see how this could ever hold up - have states ever had (or granted themselves) authority to enforce federal law? But then again, like I said, I think this is meant to push the issue and get something going.

We need to seriously overhaul immigration in this country. It needs to be exceptionally harder to get in illegally, but we also need to make it easier to get here legally. That's the only way to ever truly cut illegal immigration. Past that, we need to have some better method of tracking those here on visas - my understanding is that a sizable portion of those here illegally are those who have overstayed student or work visas.

That said, if Arizonans really want to round up anybody who can't prove that they're supposed to be here, they're kinda dumb. Way to make a bad situation worse.

[cockerpunk]

CP, I don't really think anybody in Arizona expects that the police are ever going to start "carding" (for lack of a better term) everybody on the street and locking up suspected illegals. I expect this is an effort to force the hand of Washington into doing something about the stream of people literally flowing into this country without any regard for our laws or regulations.

I don't see how this could ever hold up - have states ever had (or granted themselves) authority to enforce federal law? But then again, like I said, I think this is meant to push the issue and get something going.

We need to seriously overhaul immigration in this country. It needs to be exceptionally harder to get in illegally, but we also need to make it easier to get here legally. That's the only way to ever truly cut illegal immigration. Past that, we need to have some better method of tracking those here on visas - my understanding is that a sizable portion of those here illegally are those who have overstayed student or work visas.

That said, if Arizonans really want to round up anybody who can't prove that they're supposed to be here, they're kinda dumb. Way to make a bad situation worse.

agreed!

but using that to defend literally a law straight from nazi germany (sorry, but its true. when have you ever seen a movie with the nazis in it that they didn't yell "show me your papers!"), all the while complaining that the guys complaining about the law are the nazis.

its silly.

there are solutions, there are sensible laws, and there are sensible ways to go about this. no one is dumb enough to think that immigration isn't a problem, and no one is taking sides with drug dealers and murders, sorry, if you think that, then your nuts.


i personally think the best way to curb illegal immigration is better auditing of the workforce. sure, i hate it when i got to work for the first day and have to bring my id, but if there are no jobs, then there is no reason to come to this country. in fact, that trend is easy to spot becuase illegal immigration dropped like a rock when the economy tanked. if you stop the reason they come here, then you stop the problem. heck, there was a HUGE bust in iowa 2 years ago where they deported several hundred people and put several people in jail for hiring illegals to work at a meat processing facility. THAT is the solution. stop them from hiring illegals with random and frequent audits, and the jobs will cease to be there, and without a job, there isn't much point for these people to be here.

of course, i do agree with you, better boarder control is a great move too.



anyway, its just silly what is going on out there. one of my personal favorites is "its not racist they aren't just using racial factors to bring these people in"

and that is a good thing how? i mean if it were racist, then at least you could point fingers, when its a mysterious list that is only reinforced by the policeman personal preference, literally ANYONE can be taken into custody for ANY reason.

this a good thing how?

i also like cenk's last point in that video. what if they decided to card every christian or suspected christian in the nation (most mexican citizens are after all catholic)? wonder how fast limbah would jump on that one?

like **** on Velcro.

[BigEvil]

the only regime here is the state of arazona. they now can literally arrest you and throw you in prison until you show them your birth certificate. being against the law is literally standing against authoritarianism and for freedom. in fact, law enforcement hates the law, becuase it distracts them from actually finding illegals who break the law, and prosecuting them.




That is a very uninformed and emotional response. Please better understand the AZ law as it is written before you make incorrect remarks. I mean, come on?
They still are rquired a reason to even stop you in the first place.
http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/49leg/2r/summary/h.sb1070_04-19-10_astransmittedtogovernor.doc.htm


Prohibits law enforcement officials and law enforcement agencies of this state or counties, municipalities and political subdivisions from restricting or limiting the enforcement of the federal immigration laws to less than the full extent permitted by federal law.

· Requires officials and agencies to reasonably attempt to determine the immigration status of a person involved in a lawful contact where reasonable suspicion exists regarding the immigration status of the person, except if the determination may hinder or obstruct an investigation.

· Stipulates that if the person is arrested, the person’s immigration status must be determined before the person is released and must be verified with the federal government.

· Stipulates that a law enforcement official or agency cannot solely consider race, color or national origin when implementing these provisions, except as permitted by the U.S. or Arizona Constitution.

· Specifies that a person is presumed to be lawfully present if the person provides any of the following:

Ø A valid Arizona driver license.

Ø A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.

Ø A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification.

Ø A valid federal, state or local government issued identification, if the issuing entity requires proof of legal presence before issuance.

· Requires that if a person is convicted of any state or local law, on discharge from imprisonment or on the assessment of any monetary obligation imposed, ICE or U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) must be immediately notified.

· Authorizes a law enforcement agency to securely transport an unlawfully present alien to a federal facility.

· Requires a law enforcement agency to obtain judicial authorization before securely transporting an unlawfully present alien to a point of transfer that is outside of Arizona.

· Prohibits, except as provided in federal law, officials and agencies of counties, cities, towns or other political subdivisions from being prevented or restricted from sending, receiving or maintaining information relating to the immigration status, of any individual or exchanging that information with another governmental entity for the following official purposes:

Ø Determination of eligibility for any public benefit, service or license.

Ø Verification of any claim of legal domicile if legal domicile is required by law or judicial order.

Ø If the person is an alien, determination of the person’s compliance with federal registration laws.



No one will be stopping innocent people on the streets and asking them for their "Papers"
This goes no further than anything that you, I or any other American Citizen has to deal with on a daily basis. I don't know if you are old enough to drive, but any time you apply for a job, write a check, get a credit card, get a hotel room, or about a million other things - you are required to provide identification. This is nothing more than the state gov't going ahead to enforce FEDERAL LAWS that already exist. If you are not a legal US citizen, you are breaking the law. Plain and simple.

[cockerpunk]

That is a very uninformed and emotional response. Please better understand the AZ law as it is written before you make incorrect remarks. I mean, come on?
They still are rquired a reason to even stop you in the first place.
http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/49leg/2r/summary/h.sb1070_04-19-10_astransmittedtogovernor.doc.htm



No one will be stopping innocent people on the streets and asking them for their "Papers"
This goes no further than anything that you, I or any other American Citizen has to deal with on a daily basis. I don't know if you are old enough to drive, but any time you apply for a job, write a check, get a credit card, get a hotel room, or about a million other things - you are required to provide identification. This is nothing more than the state gov't going ahead to enforce FEDERAL LAWS that already exist. If you are not a legal US citizen, you are breaking the law. Plain and simple.

i think you should read my second post.

[BigEvil]

i think you should read my second post.

I will... too busy writting my reply to your first one...

[Ando]

ROFL...one by one...people are getting suckered in to this topic. :rofl: :rofl:

[behemoth]

build a wall.

[Destructo6]

agreed!

but using that to defend literally a law straight from nazi germany (sorry, but its true. when have you ever seen a movie with the nazis in it that they didn't yell "show me your papers!"), all the while complaining that the guys complaining about the law are the nazis.
I love the nazi/fascist card, too.

Especially when someone posted the actual law that states reasonable suspiscion of alienage must be present before making a reasonable attempt to establish whether the subject is legally present or not.

Nothing like ignoring reality and substituting your own.

[DevilMan]

I love the nazi/fascist card, too.

Especially when someone posted the actual law that states reasonable suspiscion of alienage must be present before making a reasonable attempt to establish whether the subject is legally present or not.

Nothing like ignoring reality and substituting your own.

That and he totally ignores my question all together.... Since he don't care to prove to us his extensive knowledge I'll go ahead and toss this into the pot... Go ahead CP... Start your rant about how THIS IS THE US and NOT MEXICO... It's alright to be hypocrite... just remember that you are one when you start tossing out "I'm Right, You're Wrong"s.


Mexican President Felipe Calderon has accused Arizona of opening the door "to intolerance, hate, discrimination and abuse in law enforcement." But Arizona has nothing on Mexico when it comes to cracking down on illegal aliens. While open-borders activists decry new enforcement measures signed into law in "Nazi-zona" last week, they remain deaf, dumb or willfully blind to the unapologetically restrictionist policies of our neighbors to the south.

The Arizona law bans sanctuary cities that refuse to enforce immigration laws, stiffens penalties against illegal alien day laborers and their employers, makes it a misdemeanor for immigrants to fail to complete and carry an alien registration document, and allows the police to arrest immigrants unable to show documents proving they are in the U.S. legally. If those rules constitute the racist, fascist, xenophobic, inhumane regime that the National Council of La Raza, Al Sharpton, Catholic bishops and their grievance-mongering followers claim, then what about these regulations and restrictions imposed on foreigners?

-- The Mexican government will bar foreigners if they upset "the equilibrium of the national demographics." How's that for racial and ethnic profiling?

-- If outsiders do not enhance the country's "economic or national interests" or are "not found to be physically or mentally healthy," they are not welcome. Neither are those who show "contempt against national sovereignty or security." They must not be economic burdens on society and must have clean criminal histories. Those seeking to obtain Mexican citizenship must show a birth certificate, provide a bank statement proving economic independence, pass an exam and prove they can provide their own health care.

-- Illegal entry into the country is equivalent to a felony punishable by two years' imprisonment. Document fraud is subject to fine and imprisonment; so is alien marriage fraud. Evading deportation is a serious crime; illegal re-entry after deportation is punishable by ten years' imprisonment. Foreigners may be kicked out of the country without due process and the endless bites at the litigation apple that illegal aliens are afforded in our country (see, for example, President Obama's illegal alien aunt -- a fugitive from deportation for eight years who is awaiting a second decision on her previously rejected asylum claim).

-- Law enforcement officials at all levels -- by national mandate -- must cooperate to enforce immigration laws, including illegal alien arrests and deportations. The Mexican military is also required to assist in immigration enforcement operations. Native-born Mexicans are empowered to make citizens' arrests of illegal aliens and turn them in to authorities.

-- Ready to show your papers? Mexico's National Catalog of Foreigners tracks all outside tourists and foreign nationals. A National Population Registry tracks and verifies the identity of every member of the population, who must carry a citizens' identity card. Visitors who do not possess proper documents and identification are subject to arrest as illegal aliens.

All of these provisions are enshrined in Mexico's Ley General de Población (General Law of the Population) and were spotlighted in a 2006 research paper published by the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Security Policy. There's been no public clamor for "comprehensive immigration reform" in Mexico, however, because pro-illegal alien speech by outsiders is prohibited.

But under the Mexican constitution, such political speech by foreigners is banned. Noncitizens cannot "in any way participate in the political affairs of the country." In fact, a plethora of Mexican statutes enacted by its congress limit the participation of foreign nationals and companies in everything from investment, education, mining and civil aviation to electric energy and firearms. Foreigners have severely limited private property and employment rights (if any).

As for abuse, the Mexican government is notorious for its abuse of Central American illegal aliens who attempt to violate Mexico's southern border. The Red Cross has protested rampant Mexican police corruption, intimidation and bribery schemes targeting illegal aliens there for years. Mexico didn't respond by granting mass amnesty to illegal aliens, as it is demanding that we do. It clamped down on its borders even further. In late 2008, the Mexican government launched an aggressive deportation plan to curtail illegal Cuban immigration and human trafficking through Cancun.

Meanwhile, Mexican consular offices in the United States have coordinated with left-wing social justice groups and the Catholic Church leadership to demand a moratorium on all deportations and a freeze on all employment raids across America.

Mexico is doing the job Arizona is now doing -- a job the U.S. government has failed miserably to do: putting its people first. Here's the proper rejoinder to all the hysterical demagogues in Mexico (and their sympathizers here on American soil) now calling for boycotts and invoking Jim Crow laws, apartheid and the Holocaust because Arizona has taken its sovereignty into its own hands.

Would you like to try and play your Nazi card again man? Looks like Mexico beat ya to it... You'll have to go there to get it back.

DM

[drg]

Hey DRG and CP...

Do either of you have a clue about Mexico's rules on Immigration? (Specifically the illegal type)

Please enlighten us on your profound knowledge and understanding of the world as it is.

DM

I understand that Mexico is not the United States, and that our view of civil rights is superior (IMO). This view is expressed in our legal history, which is not Mexico's, going back to our founding documents, which also are not Mexico's.

Most people learn that "but they did it too" isn't a valid justification for anything when they are little kids.


That is a very uninformed and emotional response. Please better understand the AZ law as it is written before you make incorrect remarks. I mean, come on?
They still are rquired a reason to even stop you in the first place.
http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/49leg/2r/summary/h.sb1070_04-19-10_astransmittedtogovernor.doc.htm

It doesn't matter what the law says, enforcing it requires racial profiling to accomplish anything that was not already accomplished. It creates a situation of de facto discrimination which, even if ultimately found legal, is not ultimately moral.

[BigEvil]

I understand that Mexico is not the United States, and that our view of civil rights is superior (IMO). This view is expressed in our legal history, which is not Mexico's, going back to our founding documents, which also are not Mexico's.

Most people learn that "but they did it too" isn't a valid justification for anything when they are little kids.



It doesn't matter what the law says, enforcing it requires racial profiling to accomplish anything that was not already accomplished. It creates a situation of de facto discrimination which, even if ultimately found legal, is not ultimately moral.


First, no it doesnt. Read the law. Secondly. even if it did there is nothing wrong with profiling. It is a common sense and proven method for law enforcement. You lefties have stigmatized into this dirty thing and have ties the hands of the police in many instances by doing so.There are more than just hispanic illegals here anyhow. "Profiling" just one race means that you miss out on catching any others, by your reasoning. There are plenty of Arab and Indian "illegals" here on expired school and work visas, cant catch them if there profiling for spanish.

[cockerpunk]

First, no it doesnt. Read the law. Secondly. even if it did there is nothing wrong with profiling. It is a common sense and proven method for law enforcement. You lefties have stigmatized into this dirty thing and have ties the hands of the police in many instances by doing so.There are more than just hispanic illegals here anyhow. "Profiling" just one race means that you miss out on catching any others, by your reasoning. There are plenty of Arab and Indian "illegals" here on expired school and work visas, cant catch them if there profiling for spanish.

its clear you didn't read my second post then.

if it isn't racial, that makes it WORSE. then it only matters the whim of the cop as to whether he brings you in or not. which is ultimately more dangerous the a racist law, an unclear law. i'd rather have a very specific but racist law then a very broad, ambiguous, and whimsical law.

its simply absurd that the republicans can defend this law. it makes every single attack on obama as a communist or socialist hypocritical. all the "if you don't buy healthcare you will go to jail" talk ridiculous. now you can just be put in jail in Arizona on the whim of a cop. and the republicans can straight faced defend this? literally absurd. its hard to take a party seriously when an 8th grader can see the hypocrisy.

[crack]

ok im not from the states, i don't know any of your laws and i don't have a right to comment on how the country should be run.

but one thing i always liked about America was it was a country built on immigration and anyone was welcome.

i mean what statue features the words Give me your tired your poor your huddled masses? where else in the world could you find that?

would it not be better to go after the people who exploit illegal immigrants and then help then help the immigrants become citizens to better there life's and strengthen the American work force?

[drg]

would it not be better to go after the people who exploit illegal immigrants and then help then help the immigrants become citizens to better there life's and strengthen the American work force?

This is the real solution, addressing illegal EMPLOYMENT. The AZ law has a little of this, and frankly should have centered on the employment issue.

[Destructo6]

This is the real solution, addressing illegal EMPLOYMENT. The AZ law has a little of this, and frankly should have centered on the employment issue.
AZ already has a law like this in the books. Part of what AZ was trying to address is that some AZ cities, Phoenix suburbs particularly, refuse to deal with illegal aliens when they are encountered by their PDs. What I mean is that illegal aliens get a free pass on relatively minor offenses because it is easier than dealing with the fallout.

That's probably why Phoenix is the kidnapping and home invasion capitol of the USA, by far: load houses are overlooked, mostly by design.

[DevilMan]

ummmm... really... tell me...

How many times are you ever anywhere with no form of ID present on you?

It's that simple. Answer that one CP. Tell me how many times you leave your house with no form of ID at all on you.

DM

[DevilMan]

And another one... Hey CP and DRG... Have either of you ever been to AZ? Vote in AZ? Live in/near AZ?

Any idea what it's like to live in a border town?

Don't worry.. I expect you both to overlook my questions.

DM

[MoeMag]

ok im not from the states, i don't know any of your laws and i don't have a right to comment on how the country should be run.

but one thing i always liked about America was it was a country built on immigration and anyone was welcome.

i mean what statue features the words Give me your tired your poor your huddled masses? where else in the world could you find that?

would it not be better to go after the people who exploit illegal immigrants and then help then help the immigrants become citizens to better there life's and strengthen the American work force?

You are absolutely correct.

I am in one of those "Phoenix Suburbs"
There is a part of town here called "the Square". It's a large concentration of illegals where its common knowledge ya just don't go there. It's dangerous because they know, and the cops know, they COULDN'T do anything there. Now they can.

I cant tell you how many times I hear the same old story of a car accident involving an illegal, where they A) flee the scene... never to be found B) stay there, but cannot be charged, or held because they are illegals and it WASN'T the job of the local PD to deal with that or C) they get injured and hauled off to the hospital, get treated and released, without paying a cent or showing id. (there is probably one of the biggest problems with insurance and medicare in the country... if not at least Arizona)

I have lived with this my whole life.


The last one is what really annoys me.

true story...Last time I was in the ER after falling off my horse, I had my insurance card, paid my $200 ER Co-pay, signed my life away in documents, and had more medical bills sent to me over the next 6 months than I could shake a stick at. All the while, there was a Hispanic illegal in the next bed, who did not have any documentation who had pink eye... who all but one nurse could understand. He came to the ER because the ER cannot refuse. Did he pay anything!? no. in all honesty he walked out of there with nobody actually knowing who he was. Could they call the cops? no, because the cops wont do anything... they never have here. Does immigration care? no they have bigger things to worry about... calling immigration is about like getting Mulder and Scully FBI agents to show up. Did it cost that hospital a lot of money, which in turn costs us TAX PAYING citizens money? Yeah. All the while there is a 45 minute wait and there was an elderly guy who looked like he was bleeding out in the waiting room, because some illegal had pink eye. Ya... the fact that the ER cannot refuse someone is a VERY good thing... but Illegals are taking advantage of it.

I don't understand how "Illegal alien" has become a benign title. What part of Illegal do we not understand.

Illegals are ILLEGAL=doing something wrong. They are a drain on our society because they do not contribute to the our society (and cost us A LOT OF money).

OH YEAH...
AS an Arizona State University Student... I am VERY ANGRY at the complacency shown by the faculty at ASU to allow Illegals to attend. There was an entire article written by an "anonymous" illegal student and his experiences there in the school paper. THIS along with those who hire day laborers, and pay low wages, should be dealt with harshly, and I can only hope that with this new law that may come to fruition.

I'm sorry, there are a lot of people in this sad little world. I can't blame someone for trying to make their lives better, even if that means breaking the law. but guess what... it's still breaking the law. Do it right... everyone at Ellis island did.

Another thing... don't pull the race card. I don't care. Oops we border Mexico... Yeah, probably gonna be a lot of them here. Along with the few illegal Canadians, and South Africans. (examples I know from personal experience). Then as far as "show me your papers"... "license and registration please", "may I see a form of government issue ID with that", "your birth certificate or a pass port"... all us legal folks have that, and it's on record.

Basically... as an Arizonan, I am very much in support of this law. It's about time we do something. Come here all you want... but do it legally, and contribute to our society. My dad did.

[DevilMan]

It doesn't matter what the law says, enforcing it requires racial profiling to accomplish anything that was not already accomplished. It creates a situation of de facto discrimination which, even if ultimately found legal, is not ultimately moral.

So someone robs a bank and he's wearing a yamaka and has a full beard... is it racial profiling to look for the suspect in the predominantly jewish part of town?

What do you consider the line to be when "Suspect is caucasian male, about 5'10" with blonde hair" Would you be be looking for that suspect in "ChinaTown"?

Seriously.. when are you going to get over yourselves that you are that much more important than the next person? If someone came in and left a bloodbath in your house and video showed them to be Negro/Black/AfricanAmerican whatever you wanna call em... is it racial profiling to stop a car with a person matching the description in it? Or would you have to wait and see if there was blood smeared all over the inside of the car to make it worthwhile? Really?

DM

[Frizzle Fry]

, I am very much in support of this law. It's about time we do something.

I've got a handful of friends from Arizona, and every single one echos your sentiment... They've all got stories of incidents and neighborhoods similar to the ones you describe, and often times even scarier. These are guys who are on the relatively liberal side of things too; they're just tired of the violence and the abuse of the system.

It's really easy to look from a distance and say it's a bad idea, or call it "misguided" (who said that, again?). It seems, though, that those comments only seem to come from people with a very vague idea of WHY the law was created and very little understanding of the situation in AZ.

I'm going to be honest; I don't think the President has even read the law, nor do I think he has the slightest idea of what's going on in your home state. For starters, the only people who will have citizenship checked are people who are being investigated for crimes other than just "being illegal"... This does not allow officers walking down the street to just ask people for proof of citizenship. In fact, it doesn't even allow officers to question people who have been reported as illegal; that's still in ICE jurisdiction. This law literally allows officers to look into the citizenship of people commiting theft, vandalism, traffic violations and violent crimes.

Seriously, this law is not even close to what the media has described it as.



With 12 million illegals in a nation of 307 million people, we've got a problem. Add to that the violence in border states and the amount of taxpayer money being spent on non-taxpayers, and the problem grows. For a President who ignores the problem to the point of refusing multiple times to send the National Guard to towns and cities requesting help to turn and basically say "your law is misguided, but I won't bother to read the law or look into the issues or offer alternative solutions" is appalling.

[drg]

Any idea what it's like to live in a border town?

I can tell you what it's like to live in an immigration hub/gateway with a white minority ... a law like this would never be passed here because its inherent discrimination would potentially affect too many people. It's much more blatantly obvious in a state with demographics like mine. Laws like this only happen in states with big white majorities. You live in the #1 immigration state in the nation -- do you think a law like this would pass in California today?


So someone robs a bank and he's wearing a yamaka and has a full beard... is it racial profiling to look for the suspect in the predominantly jewish part of town?

What do you consider the line to be when "Suspect is caucasian male, about 5'10" with blonde hair" Would you be be looking for that suspect in "ChinaTown"?

Seriously.. when are you going to get over yourselves that you are that much more important than the next person? If someone came in and left a bloodbath in your house and video showed them to be Negro/Black/AfricanAmerican whatever you wanna call em... is it racial profiling to stop a car with a person matching the description in it? Or would you have to wait and see if there was blood smeared all over the inside of the car to make it worthwhile? Really?

DM

Those are not examples of profiling. It is important to understand the difference.
http://www.aclu.org/racial-justice/racial-profiling-definition


--several anecdotes--

Now this gets a little closer to the heart of the subject. Those problems are not because of lack of laws. There are already laws on the books covering all those situations. The problem is lack of enforcement, and that is an executive, not legislative, issue. Legislative solutions are at high risk of overreach, because the laws on the books were already written to conform to standards of legality.

What is needed is for the executive to adopt policies enforcing these laws, and what will be needed to do that is an increase in resources expended on the enforcement.

So demand for increased enforcement needs to be coupled with a policy of increasing resources -- which means money, which means increased taxation. The problem is that your state is conservative, and will not acquire the resources needed.

That is a conundrum caused by the conservative worldview; the only solution is to adopt a more sensible worldview.


I've got a handful of friends from Arizona

Any of them Hispanic?

[maxama10]

You are absolutely correct.

-Snip-

Good post. +1

[crack]

You are absolutely correct.

I am in one of those "Phoenix Suburbs"
There is a part of town here called "the Square". It's a large concentration of illegals where its common knowledge ya just don't go there. It's dangerous because they know, and the cops know, they COULDN'T do anything there. Now they can.

I cant tell you how many times I hear the same old story of a car accident involving an illegal, where they A) flee the scene... never to be found B) stay there, but cannot be charged, or held because they are illegals and it WASN'T the job of the local PD to deal with that or C) they get injured and hauled off to the hospital, get treated and released, without paying a cent or showing id. (there is probably one of the biggest problems with insurance and medicare in the country... if not at least Arizona)

I have lived with this my whole life.


The last one is what really annoys me.

true story...Last time I was in the ER after falling off my horse, I had my insurance card, paid my $200 ER Co-pay, signed my life away in documents, and had more medical bills sent to me over the next 6 months than I could shake a stick at. All the while, there was a Hispanic illegal in the next bed, who did not have any documentation who had pink eye... who all but one nurse could understand. He came to the ER because the ER cannot refuse. Did he pay anything!? no. in all honesty he walked out of there with nobody actually knowing who he was. Could they call the cops? no, because the cops wont do anything... they never have here. Does immigration care? no they have bigger things to worry about... calling immigration is about like getting Mulder and Scully FBI agents to show up. Did it cost that hospital a lot of money, which in turn costs us TAX PAYING citizens money? Yeah. All the while there is a 45 minute wait and there was an elderly guy who looked like he was bleeding out in the waiting room, because some illegal had pink eye. Ya... the fact that the ER cannot refuse someone is a VERY good thing... but Illegals are taking advantage of it.

I don't understand how "Illegal alien" has become a benign title. What part of Illegal do we not understand.

Illegals are ILLEGAL=doing something wrong. They are a drain on our society because they do not contribute to the our society (and cost us A LOT OF money).

OH YEAH...
AS an Arizona State University Student... I am VERY ANGRY at the complacency shown by the faculty at ASU to allow Illegals to attend. There was an entire article written by an "anonymous" illegal student and his experiences there in the school paper. THIS along with those who hire day laborers, and pay low wages, should be dealt with harshly, and I can only hope that with this new law that may come to fruition.

I'm sorry, there are a lot of people in this sad little world. I can't blame someone for trying to make their lives better, even if that means breaking the law. but guess what... it's still breaking the law. Do it right... everyone at Ellis island did.

Another thing... don't pull the race card. I don't care. Oops we border Mexico... Yeah, probably gonna be a lot of them here. Along with the few illegal Canadians, and South Africans. (examples I know from personal experience). Then as far as "show me your papers"... "license and registration please", "may I see a form of government issue ID with that", "your birth certificate or a pass port"... all us legal folks have that, and it's on record.

Basically... as an Arizonan, I am very much in support of this law. It's about time we do something. Come here all you want... but do it legally, and contribute to our society. My dad did.


well to be honest i had no idea it was that much of a problem and really find it mental that the police find it hard to deal with the ones breaking the law, so if this law helps that then yea it could be a gd thing anything that stops violence is a gd thing.

with the health care im sorry i just find this hard to get my head round, mainly because i live in Scotland where we have the NHS and everyone is entitled to free health care and i just grew up thinking this was normal, illegal or not i would never like to see someone go with out the health care they need.

[BigEvil]

You are absolutely correct.



:hail:

/thread

[zondo]

but using that to defend literally a law straight from nazi germany (sorry, but its true. when have you ever seen a movie with the nazis in it that they didn't yell "show me your papers!"), all the while complaining that the guys complaining about the law are the nazis.


You could have at least given Seth Meyers his due...

I don't think asking for a valid state ID at a traffic stop or other stop for infraction is out of the question. In fact, that's the first question a police officer is going to ask now.


I can tell you what it's like to live in an immigration hub/gateway with a white minority ... a law like this would never be passed here because its inherent discrimination would potentially affect too many people. It's much more blatantly obvious in a state with demographics like mine. Laws like this only happen in states with big white majorities. You live in the #1 immigration state in the nation -- do you think a law like this would pass in California today?

I don't know, but California did pass prop 187 and prop 209.



The problem is lack of enforcement, and that is an executive, not legislative, issue. Legislative solutions are at high risk of overreach, because the laws on the books were already written to conform to standards of legality.

What is needed is for the executive to adopt policies enforcing these laws, and what will be needed to do that is an increase in resources expended on the enforcement.


Doesn't your point answer your point? Where this was a federal issue, the government was woefully behind in backing up promises that were made. Now this is a state executive holding the federal enforcement arms to task by having policies in place for the state law enforcement agencies to ask questions they should have been able to ask and share information that should have been shared. In reading the law, it sounds like the state law enforcement agencies are freed up to deal with minor infractions (breaking traffic laws, etc.) and then, if they have reasonable suspicion, proceed on the immigration status, as the state law and federal law directs . So which executive were you referring to that needs to enforce the laws?




So demand for increased enforcement needs to be coupled with a policy of increasing resources -- which means money, which means increased taxation. The problem is that your state is conservative, and will not acquire the resources needed.

That is a conundrum caused by the conservative worldview; the only solution is to adopt a more sensible worldview.


That's a broad generalization that has too many variables to be used so carelessly, which surprises me that you would use it.

[SCpoloRicker]

i mean what statue features the words Give me your tired your poor your huddled masses? where else in the world could you find that?

would it not be better to go after the people who exploit illegal immigrants and then help then help the immigrants become citizens to better there life's and strengthen the American work force?

Thanks again, United Kingdom. We are your bastard offspring after all.

This is pretty close to where I am on the issue. If we remove the incentive (available work), then presumably the market will shift away from supporting illegal workers.

[DevilMan]

This is pretty close to where I am on the issue. If we remove the incentive (available work), then presumably the market will shift away from supporting illegal workers.

I agree... if you make it AND ARE ABLE TO ENFORCE IT illegal to employ illegals then it will help ten fold. But at the same time, what's the big deal about getting rid of the people that aren't supposed to be here anyway?

That's what I don't get... Right, Wrong Or Otherwise... HERE ILLEGALLY!!!! Obviously you failed to get here LEGALLY for a reason. That means we (The US) don't think that you are needed here. You failed to obey 1 law by coming here in the first place.

You know... this would be no different than turning loose all the people in prison because of overcrowding and not worry about keeping tabs on where any of them go. It's no different.

Would you want your local prison to shut down, turn everyone out and walk away from it?

Why don't some of you that have no clue about what goes on in these areas go live there for a year and tell me how you feel about it then. Until then STFU about what Arizona and IT'S PEOPLE have decided to do. No need to hate everyone else in this world who has a spine just because you don't. After all... they are the ones that got you YOUR freedom.

DM

[DevilMan]

You live in the #1 immigration state in the nation -- do you think a law like this would pass in California today?


Nope... Nor do I care as with most of the other 49 states what in the hell CA ever does. That's the great thing about being from different states. The issue is people in those states who have no clue about the happenings of any other state want to tell those people and that state that they are wrong, stupid, "misguided", etc.

Why don't you keep your nose on your face, and let them run their state the way they want to?

Ahhhhh... so who is trying to oppress whom?

DM

Oh and #1 for LEGAL or ILLEGAL??? And where do you get your "facts"?

[cockerpunk]

ummmm... really... tell me...

How many times are you ever anywhere with no form of ID present on you?

It's that simple. Answer that one CP. Tell me how many times you leave your house with no form of ID at all on you.

DM

quite often actually. esp since ID in this case is proof of citizenship, which is not a license, its a birth certificate or passport. do you carry around your birth certificate and passport every day? also, unlike a normal traffic stop where you have 24 hours from the time you are stopped to produce ID, they can take you in at the stop, regardless of if you have ID or someone can bring your ID.

the reason we don't answer your questions is that they are pointless and irrelevant. your questions merely expose your own lack of understanding of the legal and ethical issues.

[SCpoloRicker]

Aimed at noone in particular:

Watch the name calling and personal attacks, guys.

Also, "you THINK x, but I KNOW y" is not really all that helpful.

:)

Back on topic:

I think the biggest challenge is going to be what to do with the large population already living in the States. I don't think many will be able/willing to return to country of origin and apply for citizenship.

I don't think we can "round them up"; but I don't want to have a blanket amnesty.

[DevilMan]

quite often actually. esp since ID in this case is proof of citizenship, which is not a license, its a birth certificate or passport. do you carry around your birth certificate and passport every day? also, unlike a normal traffic stop where you have 24 hours from the time you are stopped to produce ID, they can take you in at the stop, regardless of if you have ID or someone can bring your ID.

the reason we don't answer your questions is that they are pointless and irrelevant. your questions merely expose your own lack of understanding of the legal and ethical issues.

My lack of understanding? Dude... You haven't a clue about what I do or don't understand. Wanna talk ethics? How about the ETHICS that every one of the ILLEGALS go by to come here and abuse the system? How about that for ethics. You know you are on the bandwagon and just can't stand to have it pointed out to you that things are far from what you think they are.

And BTW, if you are driving then you are supposed to have a form of ID... It's called a DRIVERS LICENSE... So in the event of a traffic stop, YES you should have some form of ID.

ID is this case is a birth certificate or passport... WHAT??? Can you not read?

Here.. I'll help you...


· Specifies that a person is presumed to be lawfully present if the person provides any of the following:

Ø A valid Arizona driver license.

Ø A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.

Ø A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification.

Ø A valid federal, state or local government issued identification, if the issuing entity requires proof of legal presence before issuance.


ummmmm.. so care to tell me where PASSPORT and BIRTH CERTIFICATE are mentioned?

Want to know something else... May want to ponder this one... Do you understand that billions of TAXPAYER dollar was sent to PRIVATE businesses to help them out of their failure? Do you understand that part of the reason that the INSURANCE companies were so jacked up was because of the pay outs that they had to incur due to ILLEGAL people being here and abusing the system in both automobile and health categories? Do you not see any correlation at all? Take off your blinders, open your eyes and try it again.

In 1986, Congress passed The Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA), also known as the Simpson-Mazzoli Act. Hell you weren't even born then so I'm sure you have no clue what that covered do ya! Look it up, read about it and tell all of us that don't have any knowledge exactly what it is that we are missing. Come on... tell the truth... You've never heard of it have you?

Want some more numbers??? Want to know about what it's really costing? No of course you don't because you can't argue any real facts. You can only ride the wagon and hope that it don't go off the cliff... good luck with that...

According to the Bureau of Justice, twenty-nine percent of the inmates in federal prisons are aliens.

Heather MacDonald, in an article titled, Illegal Alien Crime Wave, for City-Journal said that 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide in the City of Los Angeles, California and as many as two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants are for illegal aliens.

At this very moment, according to the DEA, major cartels are operating openly in 195 cities in the United states... from sea to shining sea.

According to the House of Representatives, illegal aliens cost state and local governments more than 13,000,000,000.00 dollars per year.

Let me guess.. that is all wrong as well right? 29% of prison inmates!!! 95% of warrants! And you really can't see the forest for the trees.

There is a reason some folks on this orb are called "sheeple" and refuse to actually use the grey matter between the ears for anything productive and beneficial.

And you want to talk about my ethical and legal understanding?

Maybe you don't answer them because you know you can't... it's alright to be wrong... everyone is at some point in time... The difference is when you can admit to it and accept the fact that maybe, just maybe someone had a bit more than you thought you did.

DM

[drg]

I don't know, but California did pass prop 187 and prop 209.

Which are much different laws, and 187 was struck down.


Doesn't your point answer your point? Where this was a federal issue, the government was woefully behind in backing up promises that were made. Now this is a state executive holding the federal enforcement arms to task by having policies in place for the state law enforcement agencies to ask questions they should have been able to ask and share information that should have been shared. In reading the law, it sounds like the state law enforcement agencies are freed up to deal with minor infractions (breaking traffic laws, etc.) and then, if they have reasonable suspicion, proceed on the immigration status, as the state law and federal law directs . So which executive were you referring to that needs to enforce the laws?

State executive. The problem happened when the state legislature passed a law expanding the mandate and creating a de facto requirement for racial discrimination. The real solution was for the governor to resource law enforcement and enact better enforcement policies based on existing laws, which were not discriminatory.


Nope... Nor do I care as with most of the other 49 states what in the hell CA ever does. That's the great thing about being from different states. The issue is people in those states who have no clue about the happenings of any other state want to tell those people and that state that they are wrong, stupid, "misguided", etc.

Why don't you keep your nose on your face, and let them run their state the way they want to?

Ahhhhh... so who is trying to oppress whom?

DM

Oh and #1 for LEGAL or ILLEGAL??? And where do you get your "facts"?

It's not realistic or practical to maintain such a narrow worldview. What happens in other states, especially in areas relating to human or civil rights, affects all states.

#1 immigration period. Both legal, illegal and total. http://www.migrationinformation.org/datahub/state.cfm?ID=CA

[DevilMan]

It's not realistic or practical to maintain such a narrow worldview. What happens in other states, especially in areas relating to human or civil rights, affects all states.


I really love the fact that you and CP both have no clue about what I've done in my life and yet you still seem to think you have a basis to say I have a narrow "worldview"

How many states have you been to?

How many have you lived in??

How many countries have you been to?

How many third world countries have you been to?

How many dirt road "cities" have you been to?

You answer first and I'll fill you in on my travels little mr narrow worldview.

DM

[DevilMan]

And while you are at it, why don't you come out and tell us all exactly why you think that people that commit crimes should not be punished.

DM

[Destructo6]

I can tell you what it's like to live in an immigration hub/gateway with a white minority ... a law like this would never be passed here because its inherent discrimination would potentially affect too many people. It's much more blatantly obvious in a state with demographics like mine. Laws like this only happen in states with big white majorities. You live in the #1 immigration state in the nation -- do you think a law like this would pass in California today?
In California? Certainly not. California considers itself something of a sactuary state. I've prosecuted, literally, hundreds of illegal aliens that have extensive criminal records in CA, yet were never referred to ICE, even while serving long sentances. Tell me why CA wouldn't want an aggravated felon removed from their jurisdiction, at least for a time.

[MoeMag]

In California? Certainly not. California considers itself something of a sactuary state. I've prosecuted, literally, hundreds of illegal aliens that have extensive criminal records in CA, yet were never referred to ICE, even while serving long sentances. Tell me why CA wouldn't want an aggravated felon removed from their jurisdiction, at least for a time.

Because they dont mind paying for people taking advantage of the system apparently. I know I would be irritated if my state gave me an IOU for a tax return.

[zondo]

I can tell you what it's like to live in an immigration hub/gateway with a white minority ... a law like this would never be passed here because its inherent discrimination would potentially affect too many people. It's much more blatantly obvious in a state with demographics like mine. Laws like this only happen in states with big white majorities. You live in the #1 immigration state in the nation -- do you think a law like this would pass in California today?


I don't know, but California did pass prop 187 and prop 209.


Which are much different laws, and 187 was struck down.


Yes, both are much different laws, but the basis were generally the same. Your charge was that laws with "inherent discrimination" happen in states with a white majority, but both of these propositions: 187 to deny illegals access to social services, health care, etc.; and 209 to prohibit CA public institutions to consider race, sex, or ethnicity were both passed by popular vote by the public that "live in an immigration hub/gateway with a white minority". In fact, 187 looks like it was passed 59%-41%. 187 was found unconstitutional by a federal court, which is not by popular vote.

[DevilMan]

Yes, both are much different laws, but the basis were generally the same. Your charge was that laws with "inherent discrimination" happen in states with a white majority, but both of these propositions: 187 to deny illegals access to social services, health care, etc.; and 209 to prohibit CA public institutions to consider race, sex, or ethnicity were both passed by popular vote by the public that "live in an immigration hub/gateway with a white minority". In fact, 187 looks like it was passed 59%-41%. 187 was found unconstitutional by a federal court, which is not by popular vote.

Which I found interesting that they state that no education based money can be restricted due to race, religion, sex, etc... And at the same time they give out grants/scholarships to "minorities" in which a state that has a white minority makes no damn sense does it...

You've said it yourself DRG... In states that have a white minority.... Why is it that in those states that whites don't get the "special" benefits that blacks, hispanics, etc get because they are a "minority" even though it's stated that no state or federal funds can be issued based on anything...

hmmmm... sounds like a run around if ya ask me. Why is it that BET is allowed to exist and not considered racist? Why is it that they can have a "Black Miss America" contest? Do you ever look at the other side of the coin?

And again... I'll ask you...

Do you think someone who breaks the law should be punished?
Do you think someone caught wiping while playing PB should be reprimanded?
Do you think that cheaters should be rewarded?

3 simple questions for you.

DM

[drg]

Yes, both are much different laws, but the basis were generally the same. Your charge was that laws with "inherent discrimination" happen in states with a white majority, but both of these propositions: 187 to deny illegals access to social services, health care, etc.; and 209 to prohibit CA public institutions to consider race, sex, or ethnicity were both passed by popular vote by the public that "live in an immigration hub/gateway with a white minority". In fact, 187 looks like it was passed 59%-41%. 187 was found unconstitutional by a federal court, which is not by popular vote.

Actually no, California still to this day has a white plurality. 187 was quite different in that it arguably did not require racial discrimination; since it was for services proactively sought by the individuals in question it could be applied completely race-blind. And it still was struck down.

209 on its face is not discriminatory, despite its discriminatory effect. This makes it easier to sell to a populace. Given a less ideological review and continued pursuit, 209 may be struck down as well.

Do note that both of these measures were initiatives, which lowers the bar significantly for getting laws passed. The fact that the political climate no longer would support similar measures illustrates the effect of the decreasing white plurality and a greater general understanding of civil rights as engendered by such events as the striking down of 187.


You've said it yourself DRG... In states that have a white minority.... Why is it that in those states that whites don't get the "special" benefits that blacks, hispanics, etc get because they are a "minority" even though it's stated that no state or federal funds can be issued based on anything...

Quite simple, because those "benefits" are intended to address social inequalities that are race-delinated due to historic racial discrimination. They are NOT solely race-based.

But it's not entirely true that whites receive no "benefits" as a minority group ... there are quite a few legal actions in my state attempting to rectify perceived discrimination against whites, and the majority of officially recorded hate crimes locally are against white people. And any diversity programs would positively affect whites if they are underrepresented.

[DevilMan]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100501/ap_on_re_us/us_arizona_deputy_shot

DM

[DevilMan]

So you take the time to read my reply, to quote my reply and to make a reply to my reply... and yet you still fail to answer 3 simple questions.

Want to try it again? Go for it.. I think you can... The rest of us I think would be able to provide moral support to you if you need it...

Try it again...

Oh and check this...


1 Sec. 5. Title 13, chapter 29, Arizona Revised Statutes, is amended by
2 adding sections 13-2928 and 13-2929, to read:
3 13-2928. Unlawful stopping to hire and pick up passengers for
4 work; unlawful application, solicitation or
5 employment; classification; definitions
6 A. IT IS UNLAWFUL FOR AN OCCUPANT OF A MOTOR VEHICLE THAT IS STOPPED
7 ON A STREET, ROADWAY OR HIGHWAY TO ATTEMPT TO HIRE OR HIRE AND PICK UP
8 PASSENGERS FOR WORK AT A DIFFERENT LOCATION IF THE MOTOR VEHICLE BLOCKS OR
9 IMPEDES THE NORMAL MOVEMENT OF TRAFFIC.
10 B. IT IS UNLAWFUL FOR A PERSON TO ENTER A MOTOR VEHICLE THAT IS
11 STOPPED ON A STREET, ROADWAY OR HIGHWAY IN ORDER TO BE HIRED BY AN OCCUPANT
12 OF THE MOTOR VEHICLE AND TO BE TRANSPORTED TO WORK AT A DIFFERENT LOCATION IF
13 THE MOTOR VEHICLE BLOCKS OR IMPEDES THE NORMAL MOVEMENT OF TRAFFIC.
14 C. IT IS UNLAWFUL FOR A PERSON WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED
15 STATES AND WHO IS AN UNAUTHORIZED ALIEN TO KNOWINGLY APPLY FOR WORK, SOLICIT
16 WORK IN A PUBLIC PLACE OR PERFORM WORK AS AN EMPLOYEE OR INDEPENDENT
17 CONTRACTOR IN THIS STATE.
18 D. A VIOLATION OF THIS SECTION IS A CLASS 1 MISDEMEANOR.
19 E. FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS SECTION:
20 1. "SOLICIT" MEANS VERBAL OR NONVERBAL COMMUNICATION BY A GESTURE OR A
21 NOD THAT WOULD INDICATE TO A REASONABLE PERSON THAT A PERSON IS WILLING TO BE
22 EMPLOYED.
23 2. "UNAUTHORIZED ALIEN" MEANS AN ALIEN WHO DOES NOT HAVE THE LEGAL
24 RIGHT OR AUTHORIZATION UNDER FEDERAL LAW TO WORK IN THE UNITED STATES AS
25 DESCRIBED IN 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1324a(h)(3).

What exactly do you find wrong with this part of the bill? Don't worry.. you can think about it... Go ahead and try for those 3 other ones first...

DM

[DevilMan]

So still no answer??? Wow... what's wrong guys? No idea? come on... you are much more enlightened than that surely....

Here's another nut to crack for ya.... just hope your synapses can handle it...

You are aware of this thing called a RECESSION that has hit the US as well as other parts of the world right? You are aware of this thing called NATIONAL DEBT right?

You are aware that there are costs associated with coming here legally. You know... paper filing costs and what not... Oh I know it's some ungodly amount I'm sure. But you are also aware that those fees go towards the overall cost of having someone here... you know... Like education, and medical and all the other little social services and what not.... So now you take someone who skips all of those fees and comes here... They make money... UNDER THE TABLE... so there are no taxes gathered on it. So what do you think? Fair ??? You are aware those taxes are to support the local community, healthcare, education, law enforcement, etc right??? So what happens when all of that money is instead sent back south across the border to their community to help pay another coyote for another shipment of more illegals as well as drugs back north?

What do you think the end result is going to be? Surely it's not that difficult to figure out is it?

So yeah... I'm sure there is exactly ZERO correlation between the debt that this country is in, and the number of people abusing the system and raping the social/federal systems of money that they will gladly take from and never put in to.

Tell me this... Do you get retirement benefits from a company you have never worked for? What about medical benefits, just because you know someone who works at that company that gets the benefits? What about unemployment and education benefits from a state that you have never lived in just because you think you should get it?

Oh no.... more questions that I'm sure are illogical, immature, and are very "narrow world view" based.

But I'm betting that they are questions that you can't find a logical reason/reply to... Other than something along the lines of "It's the RIGHTS fault!" "The LEFTIST IS THE BESTEST!!!" crap.... See if for one post you can leave that out of it...

Good luck...

DM

Oh and just some other points to ponder for anyone else who reads this, don't know what the think, and don't want to get into the middle of it, because I know there are more than a few of you that agree with me, and maybe a few that agree with CP and DRG... Come on and post up and be heard...

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm


In hosting America's largest population of illegal immigrants, California bears a huge cost to provide basic human services for this fast growing, low-income segment of its population. A new study from the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) examines the costs of education, health care and incarceration of illegal aliens, and concludes that the costs to Californians is $10.5 billion per year.

Among the key finding of the report are that the state's already struggling K-12 education system spends approximately $7.7 billion a year to school the children of illegal aliens who now constitute 15 percent of the student body. Another $1.4 billion of the taxpayers' money goes toward providing health care to illegal aliens and their families, the same amount that is spent incarcerating illegal aliens criminals.

"California's addiction to 'cheap' illegal alien labor is bankrupting the state and posing enormous burdens on the state's shrinking middle class tax base," stated Dan Stein, President of FAIR. "Most Californians, who have seen their taxes increase while public services deteriorate, already know the impact that mass illegal immigration is having on their communities, but even they may be shocked when they learn just how much of a drain illegal immigration has become."

The Costs of Illegal Immigration to Californians focuses on three specific program areas because those were the costs examined by researchers from the Urban Institute in 1994. Looking at the costs of education, health care and incarceration for illegal aliens in 1994, the Urban Institute estimated that California was subsidizing illegal immigrants to the tune of about $1.1 billion. The enormous rise in the costs of illegal immigrants over the intervening ten years is due to the rapid growth in illegal residents. It is reasonable to expect those costs to continue to soar if action is not taken to turn the tide.

"Nineteen ninety-four was the same year that California voters rebelled and overwhelmingly passed Proposition 187, which sought to limit liability for mass illegal immigration. Since then, state and local governments have blatantly ignored the wishes of the voters and continued to shell out publicly financed benefits on illegal aliens," said Stein. "Predictably, the costs of illegal immigration have grown geometrically, while the state has spiraled into a fiscal crisis that has brought it near bankruptcy.

"Nothing could more starkly illustrate the very high costs of ‘cheap labor' than California's current situation," continued Stein. "A small number of powerful interests in the state reap the benefits, while the average native-born family in California gets handed a nearly $1,200 a year bill."

The Federation for American Immigration Reform is a nonprofit, public-interest, membership organization advocating immigration policy reforms that would tighten border security and prevent illegal immigration, while reducing legal immigration levels from about 1.1 million persons per year to 300,000 per year.

VIRGINIA - Virginia State Police contacted ICE for nearly 12,000 criminal inmates, but ICE picked up only 690.
http://www.csg.org/knowledgecenter/docs/TIAImmigrationEnforcement.pdf

UTAH and ARIZONA - In Utah, over 50,000 kids social security numbers have been fraudulently used by illegal aliens. In Arizona over one million numbers are being used, causing permanent damage to the childrens' SSNs. Kids stolen SSNs used by illegal aliens across the country is in the millions and the Social Security Administration fails to act.
http://www.alipac.us/article4570.html

U.S. SOUTHERN BORDER - 14 Feburary, 2010. Using one hidden camera placed on one trail four miles north of the U.S. border, over 400 illegal aliens recorded within 35 days. It is estimated that up to 1000 remote trails exist where several thousand illegal entries occur every month
http://www.borderinvasionpics.com/privateshowing/BIPevidence1.html

UNITED STATES - 28 October, 2009. Less than one out of 20 illegal aliens currently do farm labor.

More than 80 percent of those on deportation orders are still in the country. Justice Department is flying over 300 lawyers around the country to win costly deportation cases in federal appeals courts yet ICE still fails to deport.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/02/18/justice-department-fail-enforce-deportation-orders/

WASHINGTON, DC - Experts suggest that approximately 75 percent of working-age illegal aliens are comitting felony document fraud by using fraudulent Social Security cards to obtain employment. The Social Security Administration and Internal Revenue Service facilitate illegal immigrant-driven identity theft. Both turn a blind eye to massive SSN fraud and take no action to stop it. Many illegal aliens use a combination of Individual Taxpayer Identification Numbers (ITIN) and fraudulent SSNs to obtain tax refunds that they are not entitled to. The IRS has issued about 15 million ITINs since 1996, with a large share believed to be assigned to illegal aliens.
http://www.cis.org/identitytheft

Just a few points to ponder for the masses... Oh I know CP and DRG... these are all made up and BS stories and have no foundation and are written by homophobic jingoists with also a lack of understanding of the real world and who I'm sure can't understand anything that's in black and white...

Since 1929 illegal entry into the United States is a federal crime, up to six months in prison for the first offense and 20 years for the second offense. Hiring illegal immigrants carries a maximum penalty under federal statute of five years in prison and a $250,000 fine.

The CIA reports that the Mexican unemployment rate was recently only 4%, lower than 150 other countries and lower than the unemployment rate of the United States.

Mexico is ranked #13 in GDP, higher than 172 countries.

Mexico is home to the richest man in the world, has nine billionaires and has more millionaires than Germany.

WASHINGTON, DC - 23 March, 2010. They say there's no benefits for the undocumented in the Healthcare Reform Bill HR 3200? Does "you lie" sound familiar? There's nothing in the 'comprehensive' bill to end the estimated 400,000, $6B per year birthright citizenships. In addition to massive paternity costs, through the 'anchor child' the illegal family members receive public housing assistance and a full range of taxpayer funded services. Emergency rooms will continue to be used for A-Z healthcare. Using rampant ID fraud there's no reliable method to prevent illegals from enrolling into the new programs USDA WIC benefits will continue without legal status verifications.

WASHINGTON, DC - Over 27 stimulus money grants for anti-enforcement group National Council of La Raza. NCLR gave their "Chicano Hero Award" to Jose Angel Gutierrez."

CALIFORNIA - 16 Jan, 2010. Gov. Schwarzenegger says illegal aliens have cost his state billions of dollars for providing social programs, education and health care and other services. He vows to fight for $6.9 billion reimbursement from federal government.

5 Feb, 2010. California now spending roughly $1 billion dollars per year to jail criminal illegal aliens says H.D. Palmer, a spokesman for the state's finance department.

NEW YORK, NY - CBS Evening News video clip on the estimated 300,000 "anchor babies" born in the U.S. annually. Illegal Immigrant Births - At Your Expense.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/07/eveningnews/main4000401.shtml


(CBS) It was 5 a.m. and CBS News national correspondent Byron Pitts is with a woman who is nine months pregnant. She's rushed to a south Texas hospital to undergo a C-section - a $4,700 medical procedure that won't cost her a dime. She qualifies for emergency Medicaid.

She gave birth to a healthy, 8 1/2 pound baby boy - born in America. His Mexican mother gave him an American name: Eliot.

Eliot is one of an estimated 300,000 children of illegal immigrants born in the United States every year, according to the Pew Hispanic Center. They're given instant citizenship because they are born on U.S. soil, which makes it easier for their parents to become U.S. citizens.

That's because those babies can eventually sponsor their parents - when they turn 21 years old.

As for Eliot's mother, no longer as fearful of deportation, she told CBS News her name, Fabiola, and her story.

"So your son is an American citizen. What does that mean to you?" Pitts asked.

"I am very glad that he was born. That's why I came here - so my children, my husband and I could have a better life," she said through a translator.

Back in December, when she was six months pregnant, Fabiola, her husband and their two daughters - ages 4 and 11 - crossed the Rio Grande from Mexico into the U.S.

Once on the other side of the river they walked for two hours in search of a better life and free medical care for their unborn child.

"Do many women in Mexico make the choice to have their children in the United States?" Pitts asked.

"Yes," she said through a translator. "I know people who have done that. Things are much better here in the U.S. because they help children so much more."

It's a "better" life ... that American taxpayers help pay for.

Take healthcare for example -- an estimated $1.1 billion per year for undocumented men, women and children, according to the Rand Corporation.

Joe Riley is the CEO of the McAllen Texas Medical Center near the Texas-Mexico border. Forty percent of the children born there, nearly 2,400 last year, were the babies of illegal immigrants.

Riley has seen and heard it all.

"Mothers about to give birth that walk up to the hospital still wet from swimming across the river in actual labor … dirty, wet, cold," he said.

But here to have a child?

"Here to have a child in the U.S.," he said.

McAllen is part of a large hospital system. Like all hospitals, it is mandated by law to treat all emergency-room patients, not verify citizenship.

"We have uncompensated care of over $200 million a year," Riley said.

"Of money that you'll never see again?" Pitts asked.

"Yes," he said.

Rep. Lamar Smith, R-Texas, said: "It is not fair to the taxpayers who have to foot the bill."

Congress has all but given up on comprehensive immigration reform. But lawmakers like Smith want to solve birth citizenship to illegal immigrants, in part by challenging the 14th Amendment, which guarantees U.S. citizenship to any child born in America.

"It seems fundamentally wrong that we ought to give the greatest honor of their citizenship," Smith said. "His or her mother came across the border illegally."

Many Americans who struggle to take care of their own families think it is unfair that they should take care of a family and they are not U.S. citizens.

"I don't understand the resentment," said. "I know that God will help them, too."

That's what Fabiola's doing for young Eliot. Relying on her faith, her family … and the U.S. government.

DM

Oh and I know it may be a bit overwhelming for ya... but don't forget those other questions I asked... Alright?

[DevilMan]

This one is so good it deserves its own post...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2N98MlXO8Yc

So how do you think the person in the BLUE car came out in the end?

DM

Is it alright if I say something like too bad it wasn't someone in particular?

[MoeMag]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36884616/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

Just read.

[busby]

interesting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RJtaAIk-LU

[DevilMan]

Both of those topics have been mentioned guys... but thank you for the links just the same...

Of course CP and DRG's thoughts would be ~>

"But this is America, Not Mexico... We are better than that and should allow anyone and everyone across the border with no questions asked."

That and...

"Well it is only SUSPECTED that it was an illegal alien that did the shooting, no one knows for sure that they were, because they weren't caught.... So really it's not about illegals at all, but about drugs."

Again thanx for the video links... I'm thinking it may be easier for those than actually reading some of the links I posted up... There is a bit to wade through.

DM

[DevilMan]

Well after a few other "discussions" about this matter, I thought I'd share some more info gathered gleamed so that a few more of you may understand this a bit more. For those of you that have not read any of the bill and still have your undies all twisted here is the part that is causing the stink.

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf


20 B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS
23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE
25 PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).
27 C. IF AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IS
28 CONVICTED OF A VIOLATION OF STATE OR LOCAL LAW, ON DISCHARGE FROM
29 IMPRISONMENT OR ASSESSMENT OF ANY FINE THAT IS IMPOSED, THE ALIEN SHALL BE
30 TRANSFERRED IMMEDIATELY TO THE CUSTODY OF THE UNITED STATES IMMIGRATION AND
31 CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT OR THE UNITED STATES CUSTOMS AND BORDER PROTECTION.

If you can read English then you can notice that this states that if contact is made with an LEO for any lawful reason (If an LEO has reason to stop you in the beginning... traffic violation, robbery, etc) and it comes into question whether or not you are here legally (can't provide a drivers license, or a state/federal form of ID, which BY LAW you are REQUIRED to produce IF STOPPED BY AN LEO "Name, Address, AND ID IF ASKED" is what the law states. Of which LYING TO AN LEO IS A CRIME AS WELL.) Then with that reason you can be detained and processed because you can't prove your status.

PART C READS...

That if you are already incarcerated (aka in jail, prison, etc) and it is ALREADY ESTABLISHED that you are an ILLEGALLY PRESENT PERSON that you will NOT BE TURNED BACK OUT ON THE STREET at the end of your sentence, but instead will be turned over to ICE or BP. ICE and BP have a duty and responsibility to move you back across the border BY LAW! It is WHAT THEIR JOB IS!

It is a change in the matter from before where it was a matter of being turned back out on the street after doing the time (What were you in jail for in the first place?) Usually traffic stops won't land you in jail for doing 10MPH over the limit, if you get my meaning. If you don't (I know some of you are a bit daft sometimes.) It means that YOU HAVE ALREADY BEEN TRIED AND FOUND GUILTY OF A CRIME WORTHY OF JAIL TIME! Look at it this way. IF YOU are a convicted felon in Florida, and are wanted on charges and have a warrant for your arrest out on you, and you get stopped in AK (That's Alaska) for a traffic stop or a busted tail light, then that officer has a duty to stop you, detain you, and turn you over to Florida LEO's. DO THEY NOT????

So this is simply saying... Instead of catching someone who is here illegally (Crime #1) for doing a crime (Robbery, Homicide, Etc) making them do their time in jail, and then RELEASING THEM BACK INTO THE "WILD" that instead they will be turned over to ICE or BP for removal from the US. INSTEAD of what was previously done as, released back into the populace and ICE or BP have to catch you to deport you. Where ICE and BP have failed to do their jobs in the past, AZ is tired of it, and has passed this with 70% support by the populace!!! When was the last time ANYTHING in DC passed with 70% other than their own pay raise?

If you are an international fugitive and get stopped for anything it is the LEO's duty to detain you and turn you back over to the proper authorities IF that is the proper agreement between the nations. It is their JOB.

All this is doing is holding ICE and BP to doing their job.

Does this clear it up for some of you?

DM