Ridiculous Store Rules? Or not?

[OPBN]

So part of the downside of living in BFE NW Ohio is that the closest real paintball store is an hour West or South, even farther in the other directions. This comes into play when I drove in the other day to get two of my tanks filled, and while there asked if they had any 4.5k Ninja tank regs. Lucky enough they did, so I proceeded to try and buy one and was told the only way they sell them is if I bring my tank in for them to install it. The story I am given is that their insurance requires it. Ok, so I'm a little p'd off, especially since I didn't bring the tank with me. I push a little, explaining that it's an hour drive each way for me and that they would REALLY be doing me a favor by letting me buy one and put it on myself. No go, so I back off, and let it go. After getting home and tinkering with one of my new toys, I pretty much blow through my tanks and decide that I would take the afternoon off, drive in and get my tanks filled and bring my other one in with me to let them screw the regulator on... but a little voice inside my head said: " you better call before you drive and hour and they either don't have one anymore, or tell you they have to keep the tank overnight". So I heed my little head and call. Sure enough, the guy on the phone tells me that they do still have one, but they require to keep the tanks overnight to install them, because they have to loctite them and again gives me the schpiel about insurance etc. At this point, I am getting more and more irritated at the thought of having to essentially drive 4 hours to get some dude to unsrew the reg that is on the tank now (it's already completely loose), set it on the counter, open up the Ninja reg, and screw it back onto the tank. Even after explaining that I can buy the regulator directly from Ninja or on Ebay and install it myself, they will not relent. Now granted, it is annoying, but wouldn't tick me off so much excepting I am trying to get the regulator for the tank because I need to use it this weekend.

Anyone know if this is SOP for shops not to sell tank regs without installation, or are they just being Dbags?

[ezcreation]

Just dont buy from them. Get the item shipped priority or overnight to you...Probably the same cost in gas anyway

[Smoothice]

Either way just order it online. That story alone is why brick and mortar shops are failing.

I actually need to buy a new reg. I wonder if my local store would pull that same b.s?

[OPBN]

Most likely, I will just buy it directly from Ninja or somewhere else and use another tank this weekend. My other option is I have contacted the shop that is going to be at the field this weekend to see if they have one and what their install policy is. Main point of my rant is to see from anyone else working at a shop if this is normal or if I am getting the runaround.

[Smoothice]

Just dont buy from them. Get the item shipped priority or overnight to you...Probably the same cost in gas anyway

Well my car only gets about 15 miles to the gallon. An hour drive would be around 60-70 miles away. Figure 4-5 gallons at $3.15 a gallon is a little over $15.00 each way.

So he will spend an extra $50-60 in gas just to go back and forth 2 more times to get his tank.

[correia3]

I recently brought an older ACI tank into my local shop and had them swap an aluminum Hyperflow reg that I had for the stock stainless reg. They did it while I waited and even filled the tank...Do you think they are just trying to hit you for a labor fee or something on the reg install? Seems odd, but I can see the insurance angle too...Buy online and save yourself the hassle...

[OPBN]

I looked into overnight shipping and it would be $45 for next day and nearly $75 for next day A.M.

I really don't know if they are trying to bang me for the install fee, I would gladly just pay it if they would let me take it with me, or watch me screw it on. i didn't think regulators had to be loctited on? I know I have at least one tank here that isn't, and I've had no problems with it.

I am definitely the target market for TK's compressor.

[CatoRockwell]

My local shop sells regs seperately on a regular basis. Unless its a state policy, i call shens on the shop.

[Konigballer]

I really don't know if they are trying to bang me for the install fee, I would gladly just pay it if they would let me take it with me, or watch me screw it on. i didn't think regulators had to be loctited on?


They don't. My local Fire & Safety department screwed my MaxFlo on my Crossfire tank for free, and said they never use locktite on any of their compressed air tanks. They used a giant strap vice and a huge wrench to tighten it on, that sucker ain't goin nowhere.

[bbotts77]

I've never heard of this. I do know that even Ninja cannot sell you a reg on a tank without thread locker. If they screw the two together for you, they have to use thread locker. I bet they either made that up so they could charge you to install it or the don't understand what they are actually liable for.

[OPBN]

Found a shop South of me that has the Gorilla Myth regs in stock. They say they will put it on and give me a free fill... on the spot and not make me wait overnight. Looks like someone else will be getting my business from now on.

[Smoothice]

Found a shop South of me that has the Gorilla Myth regs in stock. They say they will put it on and give me a free fill... on the spot and not make me wait overnight. Looks like someone else will be getting my business from now on.

You should call the original store and let them know that...

[TippmannGuy]

I don't think that they are in the wrong on this one. The "brick and mortar store" has to follow a different set of rules. Every insurance co is different in what they expect of their policy holder. So the rules may be different from insurance company a to insurance company b. Online companies or retailers don't give a crap what happens other than getting paid for the product. It sad to see everyone jump on the " buy online" wagon because it is truly killing the "brick and mortar store" and local fields.

Yes overkill on the safety :shooting: but they can't sidestep their insurance.

[Sumthinwicked]

u dont have to locktite (for travel reasons most teams dont u cant fly with a reg on) but we would in our store and that store prob keeps it overnight to test it for leaks after the locktite drys ....and the insurance could be that way ... not here but we do it anyhow keeps the kiddies safe :clap: none of the 3 45 45 s or my 13 3000 are locktited fyi but i have been a tech for 15 years

[Loneassassin]

Rediculous. I've been using a Myth reg on my 68/45 bottle for two years, no loctite, tightned by hand. A monkey could do it. It has never once tried to come unscrewed, and I would have noticed it if it did. But there are a lot of, how shall we say it?, mentally challenged people in this world. I might have the same policy if I owned the shop.

[maniacmechanic]

Loneassassin don't you mean a caveman :rolleyes:
To heck with the 1st store , you should have ask for a on/off pin for a X valve just to see the look on his face
I guess nobody has ever heard of bending the rules , most insurance companys also say no full auto on the PB field ( insurance co's suck )
I NEVER use locktite on reg threads
I try to use my local B & M but he rarely has anything I need ( Mags & AKA's ) but I still stop in & shoot the bull
Sound's like shop #2 has it going on , I bet if you take your other 2 tanks he will fill them for free also

[d4m4don3]

Sorry to hear about the bs going on in your area.
Out here competition is still cut throat and there are a bunch of paintball stores competing for your business. Those guys are pulling your leg. Most stores here will not only sell you the regulator right out of box but they will also offer to install the reg for you free of charge and not pull the overnight required bull. They will ask to keep it overnight to check for slow leaks but most of the stores here aren't going to pressure you to do it. Do what a lot of folks are doing now, buy it online.

[mpsd]

I have a small, personal rule: if you have to beg to buy something, just don't. The market is open and big and I preffer to spend more money and have good service than having to ask some shmock to sell me something for the love of G-d (unless, of course, we are talking about a SFL Mag or something just as rare).

But, then again, that's just mine personal rule.

[MagBearingBear]

They don't. My local Fire & Safety department screwed my MaxFlo on my Crossfire tank for free, and said they never use locktite on any of their compressed air tanks. They used a giant strap vice and a huge wrench to tighten it on, that sucker ain't goin nowhere.


The reason Fire Departments do not Locktite their pressure bottles is because it is a chemical, and the tanks are used for breathing air. Don't want anything like that in a closed breathing system, which can be deadly. Use red Locktite if you want for securing the reg valve on your bottle (paintball uses are more demanding, so I always use the stuff). The tanks the FD uses have scuba connections, so the valves are not subject to the twisting paintball tanks are put through.

[OPBN]

Just got back from the second shop. Barely made it before closing time, but the guy didn't even bat an eye to stay later, put the reg on, fill the tank and my others, and you know what? I bought a new barrel and tank cover for the new tank ;)

Man I need to find somewhere closer for fills.

[BiNumber3]

On the insurance side, they needa make sure there's no way they'll be held liable for an unscrewed reg. As for locktite, maybe it's more to make sure that even if they don't torque it to spec it'll be ok, most of those guys workin in those shops prolly don't even realize there is a spec'ed torque rating
They do needa make some money as well.

The shop nearest to me wont even fill a tank if they know you installed the reg yourself...

As for needing loctite for paintball uses.. I believe TK and Glen palmer stated that there is no need as long as the reg is torqued to spec

[Beemer]

You guys can sort it out and I know you dont want to hear it but this is just another reason I say Paintball GOT stupid. Screw in tanks at 4500PSI is stupid.

Its about STANDARDS,we dont HAVE or follow any. ASTM ya right. Same fill nipple for 3000 and 4500PSI ya stupid. :(

DO NOT use RED loctite on your reg. You risk damage to the threads on the vessal and the reg when you try to remove it. Torque standard not locktited....DOH

Paintball had a clue till all the smart folks left.



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http://home.comcast.net/~beemerone/AoIL.gif

[Watcher]

I sell regs and CO2 valves all the time at my store. We always offer free installation on any parts purchased at our store in case someone doesn't feel like screwing around with it, but if they want to handle it themselves we won't tell them they have to do otherwise.

We've had noone seriously injured blowing their reg off of a tank by vicing it and removing the old one with 3000psi still in the tank and them coming into the store and sueing us...



I don't know what that guy was trying to pull.


Personally, i can't stand letting other people tech my stuff unless it is something I obviously can't do. Like weld/solder...

[trevorjk]

was to lazy to read the rest of the thread after your post. BUT, it is RECOMMENDED that a certified tech install the tank regulator. however, you have to be a complete moron not to be able to screw a tank regulator onto a tank with a drop of red loctite to keep it in place.

with that said, this shop is being to cautious. find another local shop that will sell it to you, or worst case buy it 3-5$ cheaper online.

[Hobbez]

As someone who has owned a business, had to pay for the insurance, and faced a frivilous lawsuit, I understand why the store may have this rule. I think you'll find its not a required thing, but something the owner put in place because hes had problems in the past. He sells a reg, someone installs it wrong, it blows up and they sue his business for 5 million dollars. Its not his fault, but the lawers don't care about whos actually in the wrong, just about the cash. Hes just trying to cover his ***. Its a crappy rule, and will hurt his business in the long run but, a couple of idiots is all it takes to wreck it for the rest of us.

[OPBN]

As someone who has owned a business, had to pay for the insurance, and faced a frivilous lawsuit, I understand why the store may have this rule. I think you'll find its not a required thing, but something the owner put in place because hes had problems in the past. He sells a reg, someone installs it wrong, it blows up and they sue his business for 5 million dollars. Its not his fault, but the lawers don't care about whos actually in the wrong, just about the cash. Hes just trying to cover his ***. Its a crappy rule, and will hurt his business in the long run but, a couple of idiots is all it takes to wreck it for the rest of us.
And I don't necessarily have a problem with the rule of them installing the reg. I was willing to bring the tank back in. My main issue was with not being willing to install the regulator on the spot. It's not like they're swamped with customers 24/7. I felt the need to hold it overnight was a bit excessive, especially after explaining the circumstances of the distance I have to drive. And it's not like it's the first time I have been in the shop....

[Chronobreak]

I understand the shop wanting to install the reg themselves if they have the proper tools/trained staff.

I work at a field and you never know how a tank/reg was treated when you got to fill it, how securely it is on etc, from a pure safety standpoint i understand completely.

Maybe next time call ahead and ask a few questions before you drive and this all could have been avoided.

and as said all it takes is one person who installed a reg incorrectly or to get hurt for that shop to be in a heap of trouble, or get a load of bad publicity at the least.

I feel a lot of people treat tank safety too lightly, and its a miracle we have not had more issues with the cylinders we use daily.

[OPBN]

Maybe next time call ahead and ask a few questions before you drive and this all could have been avoided.
Err, I did, that's why I ended up going somewhere else.

And sad to say, but it was all for nought anyways..... Too late last night to actually put the tank on and try it, but got to this morning and realized they gave me a LP output reg. Was having a hard time reaching the correct FPS and decided to check the output. Only registers around 500PSI output. sigh. :tard:

[mt84]

First I'm not an expert in any way....

Reminder... A few years ago, a mother was killed by a flying tank at a paintball field in the USA...Investigation found that valve was not properly installed....After that incident an advisory was issued to the industry.....

So before we has a group start complaining...We should check with Local, State and federal (DOT) on the proper way to install the valves...

I Know, TC (Transport Canada) has guide line for such thing....Must be locktit... We use Blue Locktit here. Blue Locktit requies 12 hrs to cure correctly....

My 2 Cents... ;)

[DevilMan]

First I'm not an expert in any way....

Reminder... A few years ago, a mother was killed by a flying tank at a paintball field in the USA...Investigation found that valve was not properly installed....After that incident an advisory was issued to the industry.....

So before we has a group start complaining...We should check with Local, State and federal (DOT) on the proper way to install the valves...

I Know, TC (Transport Canada) has guide line for such thing....Must be locktit... We use Blue Locktit here. Blue Locktit requies 12 hrs to cure correctly....

My 2 Cents... ;)

MT84, that was more than a few years ago. And yes it happened. And yes it was because something was done incorrectly. The player didn't pay attention to what he was doing. If he had been, he would have noticed 1. that it was taking a very long time to get the 5 threads off of his marker 2. that the tension wasn't relaxing on the force of the threads 3. the bottle/system hadn't off gassed after the first few turns. It was negligence on their part from what I ever read/saw/heard about it. And though they did raise a huge stink and it all went to hell... I'm not saying the regs aren't good for us all, but it does take a little bit of grey matter in ANYTHING that you do to keep from getting hurt. When you fail that part and end up hurting/killing someone else you should have the balls to own up that you mucked up... instead you push it off on someone else and blame them.

That also came up with the relief groove cut into the reg threads. I don't know if it's mandatory or not, as I've never cared to look it up, but I'm pretty sure most if not all have that groove cut so that if you get 2 or 3 threads out of the bottle it'll off gas there first. ALSO, the regs on average have a 1.5-2" threaded length that goes into the bottle. If you notice the bottle only has about a 3/4" or so area that is actually threaded. So you are going to be unscrewing for a good bit before you get the reg off. I do think they should make it mandatory if it's not already to have a hole drilled crossways of the reg threads about 1" from the end so that when you get to that point you know it will off gas.

And from what I've heard, I didn't think you were supposed to use Loctite anymore. Could be wrong, it wouldn't be the first, but for sure, I would not use RED on it.

As for the shop... meh.... save gas, buy one of TKs Mini Comps! Shoot all ya like! Charge your friends to fill theirs and make up the cost! :D

DM

[OPBN]

^^^ Might want to add it was also a CO2 tank that had an anti-siphon mod on it done by a fifteen year old.

[John Dresser]

I don't think that they are in the wrong on this one.

Yes overkill on the safety :shooting: but they can't sidestep their insurance.


I used to run the customer service center for the largest paintball tank manufacturer in the world and sorry but the store is 100% right. It might be inconvenient for you, but he's smart not to put a $40 sale above his own best interest.

I admit he should have explained it better, but I don't blame any store for not selling you just a valve or wanting to put a valve on properly.

You have to realize, the few deaths we've had in paintball that I can think of off the top of my head have been from improperly installed valves on tanks.

[Shane-O-Mac]

I've never heard of this. I do know that even Ninja cannot sell you a reg on a tank without thread locker. If they screw the two together for you, they have to use thread locker. I bet they either made that up so they could charge you to install it or the don't understand what they are actually liable for.

Actually YES they will. I just sent in my tank to be hydroed and have a new reg installed. On the webpage it says to add inn the comment line of ordering if you dont want Loc-tite put on. But you do have to ask for it not to be put on, makes perfect sense.

Beemer, I agree with the 4500 screw in tanks, and even 3000 screwins, I wish the industry would have stayed with direct mounts for safety. But if you follow my guidleines for using RED loc-tite (just search AO, I have posted it many times) you will find it works perfectly well and will not destroy any threads or the tank. I learned the method from Air America, but if your not sure about doing it properly, then have someone else install the reg. If your using a screw in tank, watch the reg/tank as you unscrew it, or dont take it off unless you have 2000psi in it, that will help keep the reg from unscrewing from the tank. AND another biggie that people dont realize, very lightly oil your asa threads before putting the tank on, since the standard is using aluminum asa's and bonnets on the tanks, the 2 similar metals can easily gall together (especially with different tolerances of parts) and lock the reg into the asa, and the tank will unsrew before the reg will. One thing Guerilla Air did right is making their newest reg with a brass bonnet to combat that problem.

[RehKal]

Just about all the stores in my local area are reuquired to do the installs themselves as well, by their insurance carrier. And yes they do locktite the threads on the reg as well.

I've looked at other companies that sell regs (older companies that no longer really exsist now) and they all did the same thing. They required the tank to be sent to them for reg replacement and I would imagine the threads on them are locktighted. Again, for insurance purposes.

Insurance companies deal with what CAN happen and take steps to prevent it for coverage. Hence some of the rules they require people to follow for continued coverage. Just because something bad hasn't happened to your tank yet doesn't mean it -can't- happen. It just means you've beaten the odds for now. :D

I'm actually kind of surprised ninja doesn't require tanks to be sent in for reg replacement, they must have some kind of loophole in their insurance that doesn't make them require it.

[DevilMan]

I'm actually kind of surprised ninja doesn't require tanks to be sent in for reg replacement, they must have some kind of loophole in their insurance that doesn't make them require it.

Maybe because it's a mail order thing, and there is no requirement stating that you have to be an air smith to do it. I mean just because it's law don't really make it the manufacturers responsibility. Cars have to have seat belts, but Ford don't foot the bill for you getting a ticket for not wearing it.

A brick and mortar is a bit diff, because they become directly liable. Though I don't really see why, when if you buy the car from the lot, you become responsible for it when you sign off on it.

meh... Just my .02.

[halB]

I am 99% certain that I learned two things about paintball in the past 12 or so years: Don't put oil in your fill nipple, and don't put loctite on tank threads. I have no clue how it became acceptable to put loctite on threads. Probably after people started baking their markers...

[Skeeter]

Not sure which insurance company they have a policy with, but I have NEVER seen a single paintball policy (and I have reviewed / purchased many) that had more than passing knowledge of the sport... I have NEVER read anything from an insurance company that references requirements for reg installs. I would call BS on that shop / tech.

On a side note, the manufacturer of both the tank and the reg probably "request" that a "certified" and / or "properly trained" technician do the work.

If someone can present documention to prove the shops claim, I would like to see it. Sincerely. Not trying to be a smart ***, but I would like to know what insurance company thinks they understand the sport enough to attempt to micro-manage it. The policies are written by "bean counters" with a minimal amount (at best) of knowledge of the sport. I would be amazed if they even understood that a HPA tank would have a regulator. About the only exception would be Bob McGuire (sp?) from the APL, and he has retired from the insurance industry.


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