minimag won't fire... with video.

[Boltaction]

Hey guys. my mini is having some issues. I bought it back in 02', and could'nt get the level 10 working at all. pretty much put it away until a few weeks ago. was'nt working (just like i left it) so i took it apart, lubed it up and messed with the level 10 some more, still would'nt work. someone on PBN said it was the old regulator piston was'nt working with the new level 10. So i ordered up a new piston and parts kit from AGD. installed new piston and the gun is at least fully pressurizing the trigger now, but will not fire. It seems to me the the trigger rod needs adjusting or the on/off has issues. all the on/off o-rings are present and accounted for, and in perfect shape. I've tried 3 different trigger frames (including the stock one) 2 different body rails and 2 different main bodies. nothing works. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

heres the vid:

View My Video (http://tinypic.com/r/1z4wlkw/6)

[Hobbez]

Have you tried the shorter springs that come with the lvl10? Too long/strong of a spring can keep your gun from firing.

[Boltaction]

yeah i tried evry spring in the kit and the stock one.

[reckid1986]

it fires fine with the lvl 7 in it?

try turning up the velocity...

[Boltaction]

just tried the level 7 and it almost works. leaks pretty bad down the barrel and im getting the sprinkler effect (i think thats the on/off right?) heres the vid with the L7.

<img style="visibility:hidden;width:0px;height:0px;" border=0 width=0 height=0 src="http://counters.gigya.com/wildfire/IMP/CXNID=2000002.0NXC/bT*xJmx*PTEyNzQyMzU1NDAwMTAmcHQ9MTI3NDIzNTYyOTkzNy ZwPTIzNDQ3MSZkPSZnPTEmbz*1ZDYyNDFlOTNlYmY*YzQ2YjZm/MWJkOTFmNGEwNGUxMA==.gif" /> <embed width="440" height="420" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://v6.tinypic.com/player.swf?file=vxzon6&s=6" FlashVars="gig_lt=1274235540010&gig_pt=1274235629937&gig_g=1"><br><font size="1"><a href="http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=vxzon6&s=6">Original Video</a> - More videos at <a href="http://tinypic.com">TinyPic</a></font>

thanks for lookin!

-Steve

[reckid1986]

from that video there is a leak in the on/off, probably the teflon oring. Change it and oil it good. It still seems like the velocity is too low, maybe something could be blocking air flow so check the hoses and fittings make sure nothing is blocking it in them. Try screwing the tank directly into the vert asa.

[XM15]

It sounds like its low on air or low pressure input.Even though its leaking it should still fire with a loud pop. Since your useing a CO2 tank. I would try to check the pressure input to the valve. I see your useing a simple screw in ASA that pushs the pin in on the tank valve. It might not be openeing the pin valve in the tank enough. Maybe try removing the Expansion chamber and screwiing the tank into the vertical ASA to see if it works with that one.

[Boltaction]

well i just got my HP tanks back from hydro so ill hopefully get em filled tommarow and try with that.

with the CO2 going directly into the vert, it leaks instantly, stops and sprinkles with trigger held. no fire.

ill update this thread tommarow.

thanks for the input. really appreciated.

-Steve

[Boltaction]

all right heres the deal. replaced on/off teflon o-ring and tefloned the steel braid from the vert. adaptor to the valve. no leaks now! the CO2 tank was pretty much dead empty from use last weekend and all the swapping on and off the gun. still was'nt shooting but when i took it off the gun and depressed the pin it leaked out in about 3 seconds. so who knows, maybe a full tank will get this thing going before the weekend games.

I was looking inside the powertube with my light and noticed there was some dirt/residue in there. anychance this could be hampering the operation of the gun? its obviously a newer valve so i cant take the top off to clean it out. what are my options?

thanks again.

-Steve

[reckid1986]

pipe cleaners work good for cleaning out the powertube. chances are it was just because you were low on air, once you get it working with the lvl 7 it should be easy to get your lvl 10 working on there.

[Boltaction]

OK full C02 tank. hooked it up and it shot twice and started leaking real bad down the barrel. I unhooked it and replaced the power tube tip o-ring. then i hooked it up and it instantly leaks out the front, i pull the trigger, it shoots once and stops leaking but doesent recharge. trigger is about half charged.

[BigTrucker]

Are you using the right powertube o-ring for the level 7?? The level 10 powertube o-ring is flat. Also make sure you didn't put the on/off pin back in up side down, that is if you are using the stock on/off.

[Boltaction]

Are you using the right powertube o-ring for the level 7?? The level 10 powertube o-ring is flat. Also make sure you didn't put the on/off pin back in up side down, that is if you are using the stock on/off.

yes it is the right o-ring. id be happy with a level 7 mag right now. ive replaced every o-ring in the power tube and it somehow still leaks down the barrel when the velocity is turned up enough to pressurize the gun. it will shoot once and the trigger goes limp and it stops leaking. when i take the valve out, the bolt never seems to come with it (wierd) and the on/off assembley is coming out wierd. the main stainless piece comes out by itself (without the on/off pin) then the brass, then i need needlenose to get the pin out.

I've tried everything i can think of and everything anyones told me to try and its just so frustrating cause the whole time im just thinking "WTF! its a friggin mag, its not supposed to be this difficult!" know what i mean? :cuss:

[Boltaction]

Somthing has to be blocking somthing, somewhere. Tomarrow im taking every fitting off this gun and probably just bypass the vert adaptor. I got some extra steel braided stuff layin around so ill just go straight from the valve to the ASA.

BTW does anyone know the exact size of the screws to hold the ASA or drop to the grip frame on the mags? I have the benchmark in the video and a double trigger (i think its a benchmark) but they should be all the same right?

thanks,

SW

[athomas]

It sounds like your new problem is bolt stick. What size of powertube spacer are you using? You mentioned replacing the powertube tip oring. Don't worry about it. It only holds the tip from turning while the gun is shooting. The only oring in the level 7 powertube that matters is the one behind the powertube spacer. Make sure you are using the level 7 bolt spring and not one of the stiffer level 10 springs (although they should work with a higher velocity setting). Turn up the velocity setting.

[XM15]

You switched from a level 10 bolt to a lvl 7 did you also put the lvl 7 brass power tube tip back on? The lvl 10 has a hex and the lvl 7 has a slot that a quarter works good for removing. You also said you replaced the regulator piston. Are you sure its in the right way? It was doing the same thing with the old one maybe it was in backwards too.

[Boltaction]

currently has level 7 powertube tip w/ new o-ring and new o-ring behind the .225 spacer. level 7 bolt and spring. the reg piston is installed correctly with the allen wrench hole facing the back of the gun. I thought bolt stick would be a possibility as well but when i push back on the bolt it does'nt reset the trigger like youd normally get with stick. I've had the velocity pretty much cranked and got nothing, then when i turned it down it pressurized the trigger and leaked out the barrel, i shot and the trigger went back to its sorry, limpy state.

thanks, for the input.

-SW

[BigTrucker]

try the .220 and the .230 spacer and see if it helps. The .220 shold fix the leaking down the barrel, the .230 spacer and that should get rid of the bolt stick. I know it sucks but you will be a mag know it all in no time flat once you plus we fix this. :D

[Boltaction]

.225 is all i gots. i got a spare AM valve off of here and just took the guts out of it and put it in my MM valve. and thats where I'm at.

I tried the entire AM valve (with the Level 7 innards) in my MM and it pressurized fine but cycled the same way the MM valve did in the second video (moved the bolt but did'nt fire), it also lawn sprinklered so i replaced the teflon in that on/off too and somehow its still doing it?

it's funny because once i get evrything working im pretty much just a sear and a twistlock pin away from having two mags.

friday nights are not for messing with paintball guns tho, im out for the night.

-SW

[Ando]

it also lawn sprinklered so i replaced the teflon in that on/off too and somehow its still doing it?
-SW
Hmm...Is your on/off pin broken? Compare it to the other pin in your spare valve

EDIT:

Better yet. Take a pic of your entire on/off assy (orings and all) and a pic of the pin by itself.

[athomas]

Make sure the on-off top isn't installed upside down (if it is an older valve). The X cut should be facing out of the valve, towards the bottom half of the assembly.

[BigTrucker]

Make sure the on-off top isn't installed upside down (if it is an older valve). The X cut should be facing out of the valve, towards the bottom half of the assembly.
Yeah, I'm thinking the same thing. The on/off pin has to be in upside down. The part that has a grove down or facing the rail where the sear makes contact. Do you know witch on/off you have?? Is it round and the same color as the valve or square and made out of brass??

[BigTrucker]

if you give up you can send me your mag and I'll fix it for free. just send me all you level 10 parts and level 7 parts. lmk

[Boltaction]

the pin is in correctly. here some real fuzzy pics of the MM valve components:

on/off
http://i50.tinypic.com/23rscih.jpg

pin and spring
http://i50.tinypic.com/atx5s9.jpg

rest of the on/off o-rings in place
http://i45.tinypic.com/313hgd5.jpg

power tube contents (obviously they went in the opposite way)
http://i47.tinypic.com/2mzcob8.jpg

velocity
http://i47.tinypic.com/15yvytx.jpg

[BigTrucker]

Everthing looks normal. Just may need to swap out the spacers witch you said you didn't have. Only other thing I can think of is the bolt spring?? is it the gold one??

[Boltaction]

bolt spring is the stock one that came off the level 7 automag valve. looks fine, stick out about a 1/2 inch past the bolt. just reassembled and gassed it up. almost empty C02 (again, lol) and it leaks down the barrel stops when trigger is depressed (no fire probably lack of pressure due to aforementioned C02). im getting my HP tanks filt tommarow so i should have plenty of air supply now (88 and 68 ci 4500).

i really appreciate you guys trying to help me out. i refuse to give up on this. like i said before, its a friggin mag. it HAS to work. I just wanna be able to use the dancing banana smile once if figure this mess out.

-SW

oh and does anyone know the size for the bottom of the gripframe for the ASA or drop to screw in? i tried 8/32s and it was too small 5mm too big.

[BigTrucker]

Sounds like you bolt spring is good, get your hands on a spacer kit to get the other sizes. I'm thinking that you can get your level 10 up in running if you have all the spacers for it. However if you give up my offer to fix it for free still stands. Good Luck!! Oh and all the screws should be 1/8 allan key

[Ando]

I can't tell from your pics but which way is the tip of the on/off pin facing?

http://store.airgundesignsusa.com/images/product/24.jpg

That little lip should be on the bottom side of the valve. Should be touching the sear.

If it's not. Flip it around.

[Boltaction]

yep ive had that facing the right way. the brass piece, though, has no "X" on either if my on/offs.

[athomas]

yep ive had that facing the right way. the brass piece, though, has no "X" on either if my on/offs.You have one of the new assemblies. It has no up or down. The original ones had the X and could only go in the valve in one direction.

Is your rail bushing in place?

Bottom of the grip frame uses 10-32 threads.

When taking pictures, make sure the camera is farther back so that the images are in focus.

[Boltaction]

now that you mention it my rail bushing is MIA. i di'nt think that would cause any issues though. .. would it?

[Boltaction]

full HP tank at 4000 psi with 800 psi oulet and this POS still wont work. trigger just sits limp, half charged. crank up the velocity and it just leaks out the back.

had about enough. could this be caused by lack of a rail bushing?

[Boltaction]

OK, slight revelation. the space between the gun body and the valve looked a little wide so i gassed it up with co2 and while it was gassed I pushed the body and the valve together and it stopped leaking down the barrel and would shoot every 3rd or 4th shot. unfortuntley, i think i got liquid in the sysytem so im letting it all dry out now. also replaced another bottom powertube O-ring.

So maybe the rail bushing is the root of the problem. not getting the valve to sit far enough forward for the sear to hit the on/off. it only makes sense.

soooo, im gonna need to come up with some sort of replacement rail bushing by tomarrow if i wanna even have a chance at using this mag. could someone please get me the dimensions of the rail bushing so i can try and find a temporary replacement at the depot?? or if anyone has any other ideas that would be great too. thanks.

-SW

[XM15]

The rail bushing is .250 (1/4") outside diameter and .200 inside diameter.

[BigTrucker]

ThIs a long shot but maybe the feild strip screw is too tight?? Just snug it up with your fingers. I've used a mag without a rail bushing before. It's not that big of a dea, it just holds the frame to the rail when you take out the valve.

[athomas]

The rail bushing is critical to the position of the valve in the body. Without it, the valve moves back during use and causes a leak out the front as experienced. It also changes sear position with respect to the on-off, which is the timing. It is the timing that causes the cough and misfiring.

[Boltaction]

thank athomas, thats what i was suspecting. i'm ordering the shim from AGD along with some other stuff so i can have two working mags. thanks everyone for helping me trouble shoot this.

ill post one last video once i get it going.

-SW