just picked up my first cocker!! now what?

[PissedGodzilla]

So I just picked up a barely used E2 Karnivor that is stock. Could I get some recommendations from you amazing paintball folk about what kind of upgrades you would reccommend? The first thing I was looking atwas the yakusa board upgrade for the E2's by Todao. :shooting:

[Watcher]

First thing you should EVER do if you get a 'cocker, is find a nice, tight, small bore barrel.

Rollouts suck... A lot.

[SCpoloRicker]

Don't touch the timing if it currently works.

[ProblemKinder]

shoot it till it stops working, then sell it. it's not worth any more effort than that.

[correia3]

If you haven't already, post on customcockers.com. Those guys might be better suited to answer your questions... :cheers:

[rawbutter]

Don't touch the timing if it currently works.

I second this. If you don't know what you're doing, the WORST thing you can do to a working autococker is try to "improve" the timing. Chances are you'll mess it up. So, if it's shooting well, then just leave it alone. You can take out the bolt for oiling, but that's it. Don't touch anything else.

If you're going to keep it for a while, then you should learn about timing, just in case you need to adjust something after a few years. Here's a good place to start.

http://www.endlesspb.com/tech/timing.html

Eventually, though, joining a cocker forum is your best bet for help.

Good luck with the gun. Autocockers are so much fun when they're working correctly. There's almost nothing that compares to that bolt sliding action. :shooting:

[BigEvil]

Don't touch the timing if it currently works.

I third it!


If you want a tune up from one of the best cocker guys on the planet, LMK and I will put you in touch.

*edit - he has my Karni right now, and im bringing him Loguzzzzz's later next week.

[CatoRockwell]

Trade it in for a mag like I did :D












JK, but seriously post some pics. It's no fun to hear about someone's new gun without seeing pictures.

[teufelhunden]

87th on don't touch it if it works and you're happy with it. Don't upgrade anything if you're happy with it, because then you'll have to retime it :)

Get a barrel kit

[leloup]

Trade it in for a mag like I did :D

JK, but seriously post some pics. It's no fun to hear about someone's new gun without seeing pictures.

Same here. Had 3 cockers, none of them ever worked. Though I would like a Karni some day. Sold them all for mags. We need some pics.

[Dayspring]

MQ2 Valve it. :)

[Frizzle Fry]

The first thing I was looking atwas the yakusa board upgrade for the E2's by Todao. :shooting:

The stock board is a great board... The only real reason to get a new one is if you need different modes or it's not working, and even then dropping $150-$180 on a Yakuza is a waste of money. You can get a fully programmable SD T-Board for $80, or an E2 ZeroB board for $60... Both will suit your needs for $100+ less than the Yakuza, the only difference being the extremely unnecessary and expensive OLED display.

If you're really looking for "upgrades" you'll want an underbored barrel (Under .679), possibly a regulator that's easier to adjust and has a higher recharge rate (stock WGP has always felt crappy to me) and things like a bleeding on/off and different style of clamping feed.

[NoForts4Me]

Upgrades...hmmm. Slider or single finger hinge frame and Pump Kit. Did I miss anything? ;)

[DeuceSV]

FIRST thing you should do is try watching this video. You learn everything you would need, almost.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yty2wMSSQDk

[zondo]

Make it into a Sniper and you won't have to worry about timing ;)

I learned a lot from the video Deuce posted.

[PissedGodzilla]

And these answers are why i came here to you good people to ask this question. thanks for the input!!! I won't touch any of the timing or change the board until I try it out to see how it is running. Many thanks to you fine folks for the info!

[PissedGodzilla]

Same here. Had 3 cockers, none of them ever worked. Though I would like a Karni some day. Sold them all for mags. We need some pics.


Pics will come as soon as it arrives!

[kwood]

i will second the get a nice tight bore barrel
other than that, dont do much because you will just mess it up
i would recommend getting a better on/off asa for them since the WGP on/offs dont bleed out air very well

but yeah keep all the stock parts for when you resell it in the future and have fun in the mean time

[runningboar]

I bought my first cocker in 92 and have been shooting one since, I also love my mags. I don't do electros but the guys over at customcockers will help you with anything you need. Chris

[Ando]

Once the timing goes. Turn it into a pump :D

[Frizzle Fry]

i would recommend getting a better on/off asa for them since the WGP on/offs dont bleed out air very well

They tend to blow that stupid little O-ring on the pin assembly... Good call.

[garbageman705]

Nail polish wedgits.

[Destructo6]

There are some excellent cocker tuning guides on the net. With such a guide, I took my clicking mess of a pre-1995 cocker and tuned it into the most reliable muppet mower around. I still have and use it often.

Then, I ebay'd a boatload of parts and built a sweet post-2000 cocker, which I later electro'd (kinda wish I'd left it mech).

Really, don't be afraid of all the adjustments. Each does one thing and knowing in what order they should be adjusted makes logic and order out of what once appeared to be black magic.

That's when the fun of tuning for perfection begins.

[Hexis]

The first thing I did was take my Orracle apart down to individual parts. Didn't remove the valve since I didn't have that tool. Then figured out how it all worked and put it back together. Best way to learn about a cocker. Just make sure you have another gun ready if you need to play, that way you are not rushed to put it back together.

[Newt]

Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

[nerobro]

wooow. What a reaction.

First off, it's an e-cocker, so timing isn't really an issue. As per usual, do not just "upgrade" unless there's a reason to. what do you think needs upgrading? and what do you imagine the benifits will be?

Now on the timing thing... Just to put it in perspective, mags have timing too. and mags can get out of time.

Timing a cocker is easy. However if you don't know exactly what is wrong, don't try fixing it. They aren't even hard to time. :-)

[Frizzle Fry]

First off, it's an e-cocker, so timing isn't really an issue.
No? You still have to set the dwell and calibrate the ram and adjust the LPR accordingly.




As per usual, do not just "upgrade" unless there's a reason to. what do you think needs upgrading? and what do you imagine the benifits will be?
People have been VERY clear about the benefits...

A tight bore barrel prevents rollouts with closed-bolt markers, a new board will provide modern tourney-legal modes and the option of creating your own, a new reg and LPR can offer higher recharge rates and easier adjustment, and the stock WGP on/off ASA tends to blow O-rings...




Now on the timing thing... Just to put it in perspective, mags have timing too. and mags can get out of time.
Que? Once you've got the right carrier and shim they shoot perfectly, but even with a poor match it'll still cycle and fire fine... Do you mean adjusting the sear pin is like timing a cocker? That's not really the same idea.

[nerobro]

No? You still have to set the dwell and calibrate the ram and adjust the LPR accordingly. Calibrate the ram? You mean adjust pump rod length? Meh, it just takes the "clack" out. It doesn't change performance. And the clack means you're not abusing the bumpstops in the ram, IF you have bumpstops in your ram. Adjusting the LPR is simple. And most people with cockers shouldn't be adjusting that anyway. I liked sledges, they made for less headaches for me.




People have been VERY clear about the benefits... really I wasn't asking you, I was trying to ask the OP. He came in asking "what should I upgrade" which is really not the way to do this sort of thing. On any gun. Ever. That's how you end up with smart boxes, expansion chambers after regulators, triple regged mags, aftermarket mag back halfs, ANS regs on ANYTHING..... I could keep going :-)


A tight bore barrel prevents rollouts with closed-bolt markers, a new board will provide modern tourney-legal modes and the option of creating your own, a new reg and LPR can offer higher recharge rates and easier adjustment, and the stock WGP on/off ASA tends to blow O-rings... I'm apt to say most of the advice given was pretty good. Nobody has recommended regs yet. And to recommend regs, you need to get really stinking specific, as the WGP reg designs are really, really good. And given this is a cocker noob, I'd stick with the stock regs as WGP didn't miss by much.

But that still goes back to the "Hey, what do you want to upgrade for?"


Que? Once you've got the right carrier and shim they shoot perfectly, but even with a poor match it'll still cycle and fire fine... Do you mean adjusting the sear pin is like timing a cocker? That's not really the same idea.I wasn't talking LX timing. But that's timing too. Yes, mag timing and cocker timing are not all that different. If the timing is short, the sear won't catch, or won't catch fully, if the timing is long, you make the gun easy to short stroke.

As mags get older, and the chances of a multiply annoed gun go up, the more likely you'll run into that situation. ;-)

Back to the main contentions of my post. "What's so scary about timing a cocker?" The contentions that you should just never time it. And you should give up if it malfunctions, are patently absurd.

And "what do you think needs upgrading?"

I"m just trying to keep sanity in the equation here. I've seen to many good cockers blown up by upgradeitis. or more importantly "But I think it needs X." When it really needed a new ram, or half a turn on the LPR.

Adjustable LPR's make me cry half the time. :-) Knobs are cool and all, but most of the MFG's did it right when they made their LPR's tool adjust only. It stops tools from adjusting their lprs.

I say get it running first. The only "for sure" change (i'm not gonna call it an upgrade) is a board to make it tourny legal. The rest... time will tell.

[Dayspring]

One thing I go with when I have an upgradeable marker:

Regulator - I've had REALLY good experiences with the AKA 2 Litre reg. It's an Xvalve for other guns for all intents and purposes. Why wouldn't you want something like that? I've put one on every gun I could put it on.


As for the 'cocker, getting an MQ valve made sense. I've known the inventor for years and sooner or later, he'd kidnap the gun and put one in anyway. Plus, I like the way it shoots.

I do agree with the board upgrade idea. Though, the E2/ZeroB are tourney legal for Millenium & PSP. Not sure if there are any other modes out there. If so, then the Tadao board is the way to go (i know I'm getting one.)

[randall "ace"]

i recently grabbed up a trilogy, and added a pump kit , any way to stop the roll-outs ?

[nerobro]

i recently grabbed up a trilogy, and added a pump kit , any way to stop the roll-outs ?
Barrels that fit the paint. :-) Or.. as mentioned before, nail polish "wedgits"

[PissedGodzilla]

Pics coming tonight!!! :dance: :dance: :dance:

[Seth1784]

i'll third or whatever we're up to on the learn about timing... it's the best thing to learn on a cocker. barrel kit will help with roll out but depending how the board is set up it might act "semi" auto. i picked up a e1 bladed prostock and it's got traditional and semi modes. one will lodge the ball like a traditional cocker (think it's called classic plus or something) then the other will act like a semi auto marker more or less and you wont have roll outs in that mode.

board wise, only reason you could really want to swap boards is just for ramping and junk. the stock board if it's at all like mine should do semi just fine. the e2 (which you might have as well) does ramping and the like, if that's what you'd rather you can get those used on the pbn forum... think 80 ish was the last i saw. better then double that for a aftermarket.

a good quality derlin bolt is another must... if you want to go as fast as possible look for the lightest one you can get. believe that was a slik edge III from what i'm told.

i've been running a 99 cocker for yeaaaaaars, it's only failed me twice honestly. 3 way/ram blew then the other time was the stock hpr which was a known issue. i have a 3 way problem again but i'm going to swap to a pump so who cares. but for a 10 year old gun... come on.

just make sure you maintain it and it'll treat you well.

[Frizzle Fry]

i recently grabbed up a trilogy, and added a pump kit , any way to stop the roll-outs ?

A tightbore barrel works fine.

[PissedGodzilla]

I need to get the rest when I am home tonight, but here is a quick shot. I noticed a few things I am going to have to fix though. One, the o-ring under the ...(Sorry brain fart, the part of the front block with the karni Logo) seems to be broken and jutting out, so i will need to replace that. Secondly, the tab you pull out to field strip the bolt is sheared off so it's hard to grip it when trying to take it out. Easy fixes.


http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs314.ash1/27852_1420851237946_1132621765_1222421_8161568_n.j pg

[PissedGodzilla]

Also been playing with it, and the trigger is a little uncomfortable, going to look around for trigger replacements as well.

[garbageman705]

Try adjusting it.


Also been playing with it, and the trigger is a little uncomfortable, going to look around for trigger replacements as well.

[Loneassassin]

Nice gun. Don't let some of these guys scare you about the timing - as there is virtually nothing to do on an electronic cocker. (Not that timing a mech cocker is difficult - and it hardly ever has to be done.)

Basically, this is all you have to do:

Make sure the hammer lug is adjusted so that when you manually trip the sear solenoid, it releases the hammer approximately 1/2 way through its travel. This will ensure that the noid has an easy time tripping the sear, and will allow you to shoot deeper into your battery's life.

Next, make sure the back block is adjusted on the pump rod so that when it is all the way forward, there is about a credit card's thickness between the block and the gun body. This will take away the "clacking" sound and prevent wear and tear on the ram, pump arm threads, and backblock.

That's really about it, other than the cocking rod adjustment, which is probably already adjusted correctly. Your Lpr pressure is determined by simply starting low and then turning it up while shooting so that it cocks the gun every time even at your max rate of fire. Most of these adjustments don't change once you set them, so it's kind of a one time deal. I've always put blue loctite on my hammer lugs so that they stay put (they are still adjustable). That's the most common thing that goes "out of time."

As far as upgrades go, a small bore barrel is a neccessity. The only ones I use are .679 and .682. I've been getting rollouts lately with the .682. Paint companies are cutting costs by reducing the size of our paint. :mad:

On my E-cocker, I have an MQ2 valve and a Tadao Yakuza board, a nice AKA Lpr, and it's halfblocked. Of all of those upgrades, the MQ2 has had the most pronounced effect.

The MQ elminates the hammer and springs, and allows you to run your lpr rediculously low, which translates to reduced kick and at least in my case, better efficiency. (2000 shots on a 68/4500.) The MQ also made it super quiet - in fact it is quieter than my friends DM 8.

The AKA lpr was also a good upgrade because it recharges so fast - I can run it much lower than my Tickler lpr, and it still keeps up to high rates of fire. I have run it as low as about 30psi and it still cycles at 12bps or so, and is so soft on paint it will not push a .684 ball into a .682 barrel!

As far as boards go - I only bought my Yakuza board because it was the last thing I could really do - and I wanted to create the "ultimate cocker." My E2 board is just fine - in fact most of the time I shoot in straight semi mode so they are pretty much equal in that regard. The Yakuza is much more user friendly in that you can access all the modes and adjustments without taking the grip off. And it is fun to have uncapped autoresponse or full auto modes accessable at the touch of a button. :shooting: But I've found that I don't really use those modes in a game.

Other than that, the halfblocking I did reduced the overall weight, as well as the reciprocating mass. (lower reciprocating mass = less kick, less work for the ram = less lpr pressure needed.) But the Karni is a beautiful gun to halfblock - I wouldn't do it. You can achieve much of the recipcrocating weight reduction with a Slik bolt and pin. I have the whole Slik kit on my mech cocker and it has about the same recip mass as my halfblocked cocker.

Sorry about the huge post, but I live and breathe cockers and I'm always eager to help!!!

[Dayspring]

On my E-cocker, I have an MQ2 valve and a Tadao Yakuza board, a nice AKA Lpr, and it's halfblocked. Of all of those upgrades, the MQ2 has had the most pronounced effect.

The MQ elminates the hammer and springs, and allows you to run your lpr rediculously low, which translates to reduced kick and at least in my case, better efficiency. (2000 shots on a 68/4500.) The MQ also made it super quiet - in fact it is quieter than my friends DM 8.


Pissed got to shoot my MQ'd Freeflow at Tunaball a few weeks ago. Plus, "MQ" is a family friend of ours. It's not often one can claim to have a mad scientist on retainer. ;)

[kcombs9]

sorry but the thread title makes me giggle... :spit_take